Re: [Fis] TR: What is ³Agent²?

[Loet Leydesdorff]

Dear colleagues,

In my opinion, a word like "agency" (or "action") is provided with 
meaning within a sentence/statement which is theoretically informed. 
Only in a context, a word can become a concept.


The common ground that is assumed in this discussion is the claim that 
the generation of agency can be expressed in terms of a non-linear 
dynamics of entropy; for example, in computer simulations. The genesis, 
however, is not the validity. For the latter, one needs specific 
theorizing at each systems level. Specification of the differentia 
specifica of each theoretical perspective is important particularly in 
the case of the difference between biology and sociology. Otherwise, one 
risks a return to "general systems theory", "sociobiology", etc.


I agree (with Stan and others) that "intentionality" is then a second 
dimension. Intentional action cannot be equated with a whirl. The 
concepts are not scale-free :-( In the case of information, for example, 
one can clearly distinguish between mathematical theory of communication 
or non-linear dynamics enabling is to carry metaphors from one systems 
level to another (as a heuristics) and substantive theories of 
communication such as when molecules are exchanged. The exchange of 
molecules, however, is very different from the exchange of ideas in 
scholarly communication.


Best,
Loet


Loet Leydesdorff

Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

l...@leydesdorff.net ; 
http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of 
Sussex;


Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. , 
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, 
Beijing;


Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck , University of London;

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en


-- Original Message --
From: "Christophe Menant" 
To: "gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se" 
Cc: "Foundation of Information Science" 
Sent: 10/22/2017 2:59:10 PM
Subject: [Fis] TR: What is ³Agent²?




Dear Gordana,
Your proposal for elementary particles and social institutions as two 
limit cases for agency is interesting as it also positions limit cases 
for normative/teleological properties


highlighted as implicit parts of agency by Terry. And it brings in 
perspectives on your subject.
Social institutions clearly have final causes (a long and complex 
list..) but associating agency and teleology to elementary particles 
may be problematic as it introduces final causes in a material 
universe. This looks close to an "intelligent design" option that we 
prefer to avoid.
Why not introduce  a possible "trend to increasing complexity" (TIC) in 
our universe, with steps since the big bang:
energy => elementary particles=> atoms=>molecules=> life=>humans=> 
(perhaps pan-computationalism has a say there?).
Agency and normative/teleological properties can then be looked at as 
emerging during the TIC at the molecules=>life transition (Terry's 
morphodynamics).
Rather than being  a limit case for agency,  elementary particles are 
then part of the thread leading to teleology/agency via the TIC.

How would you feel about such wording?
Best
Christophe






De : Fis  de la part de Gordana 
Dodig-Crnkovic 

Envoyé : vendredi 20 octobre 2017 11:02
À : Terrence W. DEACON; 'Bob Logan'; l...@leydesdorff.net; 'fis'
Objet : Re: [Fis] What is ³Agent²?


Dear Terry, Bob, Loet

Thank you for sharing those important thoughts about possible choices 
for the definition of agency.


I would like to add one more perspective that I find in Pedro’s article 
which makes a distinction between matter-energy aspects and 
informational aspects of the same physical reality. I believe that on 
the fundamental level of information physics we have a good ND simplest 
example how those two entangled aspects can be formally framed.
As far as I can tell, Terrys definition covers chemical and biological 
agency.
Do we want to include apart from fundamental physics also full 
cognitive and social agency which are very much dominated by 
informational aspects (symbols and language)?
Obviously there is no information without physical implementation, but 
when we think about epistemology and the ways we know the world, for us 
and other biological agents there is no physical interaction without 
informational aspects.

Can we somehow think in terms those two faces of agency?
Without matter/energy nothing will happen, nothing can act in the world 
but that which happens and anyone registers it, has informational side 
to it.
For human agency 

Re: [Fis] TR: What is ³Agent²?

[Stanley N Salthe]

Christophe --

Regarding:

>Social institutions clearly have final causes (a long and complex list..)
but associating agency and teleology to elementary particles may be
problematic as it introduces final causes in a material universe. This
looks close to an "intelligent design" option that we prefer to avoid.

Final cause (teleology) is an issue separate from agency. I believe that in
the context of the Big Bang theory, and given the constitutive low energy
efficiency of all work, the Second Law of thermodynamics can be viewed as a
final cause of all energy usage whatever.

STAN

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Christophe Menant <
christophe.men...@hotmail.fr> wrote:

>
> Dear Gordana,
>
> Your proposal for elementary particles and social institutions as two
> limit cases for agency is interesting as it also positions limit cases for
> normative/teleological properties
>
> highlighted as implicit parts of agency by Terry. And it brings in
> perspectives on your subject.
> Social institutions clearly have final causes (a long and complex list..)
> but associating agency and teleology to elementary particles may be
> problematic as it introduces final causes in a material universe. This
> looks close to an "intelligent design" option that we prefer to avoid.
> Why not introduce  a possible "trend to increasing complexity" (TIC) in
> our universe, with steps since the big bang:
> energy => elementary particles=> atoms=>molecules=>
> life=>humans=> (perhaps pan-computationalism has a say there?).
> Agency and normative/teleological properties can then be looked at
> as emerging during the TIC at the molecules=>life transition (Terry's
> morphodynamics).
> Rather than being  a limit case for agency,  elementary particles are then
> part of the thread leading to teleology/agency via the TIC.
> How would you feel about such wording?
> Best
> Christophe
>
>
>
> --
> *De :* Fis  de la part de Gordana
> Dodig-Crnkovic 
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 11:02
> *À :* Terrence W. DEACON; 'Bob Logan'; l...@leydesdorff.net; 'fis'
> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] What is ³Agent²?
>
>
> Dear Terry, Bob, Loet
>
> Thank you for sharing those important thoughts about possible choices for
> the definition of agency.
>
> I would like to add one more perspective that I find in Pedro’s article
> which makes a distinction between matter-energy aspects and informational
> aspects of the same physical reality. I believe that on the fundamental
> level of information physics we have a good ND simplest example how those
> two entangled aspects can be formally framed.
> As far as I can tell, Terrys definition covers chemical and biological
> agency.
> Do we want to include apart from fundamental physics also full cognitive
> and social agency which are very much dominated by informational aspects
> (symbols and language)?
> Obviously there is no information without physical implementation, but
> when we think about epistemology and the ways we know the world, for us and
> other biological agents *there is no physical interaction without
> informational aspects*.
> Can we somehow think in terms those two faces of agency?
> Without matter/energy nothing will happen, nothing can act in the world
> but that which happens and anyone registers it, has informational side to
> it.
> For human agency (given that matter/energy side is functioning)
> information is what to a high degree drives agency.
>
> Do you think this would be a fruitful path to pursue, with “agency” of
> elementary particles and agency of social institutions as two limit cases?
>
> All the best,
> Gordana
>
>
>
> __
> Gordana Dodig Crnkovic, Professor of Computer Science
> Department of Computer Science and Engineering
> Chalmers University of Technology
> School of Innovation, Design and Engineering, Mälardalen University
> http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/
> 
> Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
> www.mrtc.mdh.se
> GORDANA DODIG-CRNKOVIC Professor of Computer Science.
> gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se gordana.dodig-crnko...@chalmers.se. Mobile
> MDH: +46 73 662 05 11 <+46%2073%20662%2005%2011>
>
> General Chair of is4si summit 2017
> http://is4si-2017.org
> 
> IS4SI-2017 - International Society for Information Studies
> 
> is4si-2017.org
> IS4SI-2017 Summit - International Society for Information Studies -
> DIGITALISATION FOR A SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY Embodied, Embedded, Networked,
> Empowered...
>
>
>
> From: Fis  on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <
> l...@leydesdorff.net>
> Organization: University of Amsterdam
> Reply-To: "l...@leydesdorff.net" 
> Date: Friday, 20 October 2017 at 08:40
> To: 'Bob Logan' , 'fis' 
> Subject: Re: [Fis] What is “Agent”?
>
> Dear