Re: [Fis] The notion of meaning... (impredicativity)

2009-04-06 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan
Dear Christophe and Giuseppe,

Thanks for the recent comments, really exciting . There is a direct
connection between quantum  unpicturability (but do not have here the
proper reference; it is one of the simplifications which allows
approaching chemical bonds by making them independent on the atomic
nuclei fluctuations).  Next week I will answer better (preparing a trip
now). About the question below, I quite agree with you, but people who
fill in application forms have to be left to handle by themselves that
excruciating job, without interferences. Even more when other societies
were involved, not only FIS...

 But coming back to the reason of my post, I’m surprised that the 
 notion of meaning is not an explicit item in a proposal entitled 
 “Interdisciplinary elucidation of the information concept. Theories, 
 Metaphores and Applications“
 If I have missed something, pls  let me know.


About Giuseppe points, I also agree, but some further defense of Rosen's
may be useful. The case is in my view, that unpicturability refers to
complexity depth and impredicativity to its extension. Both are
related, and maybe not quite well formulated. Regarding
ecological-geodynamic networking matters (so crucial in microbial
communities) and in the asymmetry between analysis and synthesis
concerning biological nature as open systems (a fascinating theme also
within Rosen's scope) something similar to impredicativity could be
argued. Let us try ourselves to unify matters, by means of future
exchanges, or even let us plan a devoted discussion-session...

Why computational processes should be necessarely predicative?
Girard's Type Theory (System F) is impredicative yet fully 
computational (it
computes exactly the recursive functions provably total in second order
Arithmetic).
A detailed critique of Rosen's analysis is in:
Matteo Mossio, Giuseppe Longo, John Stewart.  Computability of closure to
efficient causation.   To appear,  J. of Theoretical Biology, 2009.
(ftp://ftp.di.ens.fr/pub/users/longo/CIM/comp-closure.pdf).


The bibliog. references of both messages were really of interest (I will
go for them next days...)

best regards

Pedro


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Re: [Fis] The notion of meaning... (impredicativity)

2009-04-02 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan
Thanks, Christophe.

These days I am involved in a paper on prokaryotic intelligence, and 
have laterally approached the problem of cellular meaning. I am copying 
a fragment below (not corrected yet). Rosen's impredicativity looks to 
me an important concept to clarify things. However, rather than 
establishing it based on dynamic, open systems (boundary conditions) as 
he does, I would join Michael Conrad's viewss, in that protein folding 
and unpicturability of enzyme function are the deep causes of factual 
impredicativity in living cells... but perhaps my Conradian 
interpretation is forced.

Anyhow, the overall idea may be that the signal becomes symmetry 
breaking for the cell, and the elaboration of meaning becomes symmetry 
restoration.

best ---Pedro



...Along this view, living cells are enacting a new way of existence, 
an active “informational” one that is based on the capability to keep 
the own structures in a permanent state of flow. Cells would respond to 
signals from the environment, and produce the “meaning” they imply, by 
letting the signals themselves interfere with the ongoing molecular 
dynamics of the cellular self-production flow. Completion of the cell 
cycle would always appear as the fundamental reference... And on the 
other side, the/ impredicative /nature of biological information has to 
be taken into account (Rosen, 1993). It conduces to realizing that the 
information processing of living cells is not of the same class than the 
processes of formal, predicative nature (computation). Rather, 
biomolecular processing is a “tactilizing” phenomenon based on a myriad 
of specific “molecular recognition” events (Conrad, 1998; Marijuán, 
2003); and there is no syntactic procedure or amount of computation that 
can fill in the modelling gap, in formal terms, between the sequences 
found in genomes and the emergent dynamics of protein  enzyme  RNA 
networks. The degree to which biological complexity can be efficiently 
fathomed in computational terms is a highly debatable question; it has 
also practical implications regarding the mentioned integration of 
signaling processes within the life cycle, and the cut-offs and 
trade-offs to establish in the models. Whatever the modelling option, 
the real biomolecular elaboration of meaning in the living cell and in 
the living brain would always keep the upper hand of complexity with 
respect any syntactic, computational procedures...




Christophe Menant escribió:

 Thanks Stan, 
 Biosemiotics can indeed be part of the story 
 (http://crmenant.free.fr/Biosemiotics3/INDEX.HTM ), but part only.
 My point is about the importance of the notion of ”meaning” when 
 talking about information. Interpretation of information (meaning 
 generation) is key when information is processed by finalized systems. 
 Our lives are embedded in meaning generation, from auto-immune disease 
 to the smile of the Joconde. Meaning generation has probably an 
 evolutionary story, and can deserves (I feel) a systemic approach 
 (http://cogprints.org/6279/ ). So I’m just kind of surprised not to 
 see the notion of meaning explicited in the proposal.
 Perhaps Pedro could tell us more on this point.
 All the best
 Christophe

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Re: [Fis] The notion of meaning... (impredicativity)

2009-04-02 Thread Christophe Menant

Real interesting, Pedro.
Regarding impredicativity, I was quite simply expecting quantum mechanics to 
answer (encapsulate) the question. But I don’t know really if unpicturability 
of enzyme function can somehow hooked at quantum randomness. 
When you write that “living cells are enacting a new way of existence”, I 
follow you but would be careful about the concept of self being still active as 
it is key for the nature of organisms and (I feel) deserves some more 
development in philosophical terms. The best I have in this area is D. Legrand 
thesis (1).  But more is needed. Anything available from your side ?
Also, as you may know, the Enactive approach is highly demanding in terms of 
meaning generation (2, 3, 4, 5).
But coming back to the reason of my post, I’m surprised that the notion of 
meaning is not an explicit item in a proposal entitled “Interdisciplinary 
elucidation of the information concept. Theories, Metaphores and Applications“
If I have missed something, pls  let me know.
Best
Christophe
(1) 
http://sites.univ-provence.fr/wceperc/sem-epist-perm/Legrand_D/doroth%E9elegrandattache/Legrand%20These.pdf
(2) T. Froese, T Ziemke  « Enactive Artificial Intelligence »
(3) S. Torrance “In search of the enactive: Introduction to special issue on 
Enactive Experience » Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences, 4(4) December 
2005, pp. 357-368
(4) Di Paolo, E., Rohde, M.,  and De Jaegher, H. 2007. “Horizons for the 
Enactive Mind: Values, Social Interaction, and Play” To appear in Enaction: 
Towards a New Paradigm for Cognitive Science, J. Stewart, O. Gapenne, and E. A. 
Di Paolo (Eds), Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, forthcoming.
(5) * Colombetti, G.  2008 « Enaction, sense-making and emotion » (To appear in 
Stewart, J., Gapenne, O.  Di Paolo, E. (eds). Enaction: Towards a New Paradigm 
for Cognitive Science. Cambridge MA: MIT Press. 2008. Forthcoming.) . 

 
 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:18:30 +0200
 From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 To: christophe.men...@hotmail.fr
 CC: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Subject: Re: [Fis] The notion of meaning... (impredicativity)
 
 Thanks, Christophe.
 
 These days I am involved in a paper on prokaryotic intelligence, and 
 have laterally approached the problem of cellular meaning. I am copying 
 a fragment below (not corrected yet). Rosen's impredicativity looks to 
 me an important concept to clarify things. However, rather than 
 establishing it based on dynamic, open systems (boundary conditions) as 
 he does, I would join Michael Conrad's viewss, in that protein folding 
 and unpicturability of enzyme function are the deep causes of factual 
 impredicativity in living cells... but perhaps my Conradian 
 interpretation is forced.
 
 Anyhow, the overall idea may be that the signal becomes symmetry 
 breaking for the cell, and the elaboration of meaning becomes symmetry 
 restoration.
 
 best ---Pedro
 
 
 
 ...Along this view, living cells are enacting a new way of existence, 
 an active “informational” one that is based on the capability to keep 
 the own structures in a permanent state of flow. Cells would respond to 
 signals from the environment, and produce the “meaning” they imply, by 
 letting the signals themselves interfere with the ongoing molecular 
 dynamics of the cellular self-production flow. Completion of the cell 
 cycle would always appear as the fundamental reference... And on the 
 other side, the/ impredicative /nature of biological information has to 
 be taken into account (Rosen, 1993). It conduces to realizing that the 
 information processing of living cells is not of the same class than the 
 processes of formal, predicative nature (computation). Rather, 
 biomolecular processing is a “tactilizing” phenomenon based on a myriad 
 of specific “molecular recognition” events (Conrad, 1998; Marijuán, 
 2003); and there is no syntactic procedure or amount of computation that 
 can fill in the modelling gap, in formal terms, between the sequences 
 found in genomes and the emergent dynamics of protein  enzyme  RNA 
 networks. The degree to which biological complexity can be efficiently 
 fathomed in computational terms is a highly debatable question; it has 
 also practical implications regarding the mentioned integration of 
 signaling processes within the life cycle, and the cut-offs and 
 trade-offs to establish in the models. Whatever the modelling option, 
 the real biomolecular elaboration of meaning in the living cell and in 
 the living brain would always keep the upper hand of complexity with 
 respect any syntactic, computational procedures...
 
 
 
 
 Christophe Menant escribió:
 
  Thanks Stan, 
  Biosemiotics can indeed be part of the story 
  (http://crmenant.free.fr/Biosemiotics3/INDEX.HTM ), but part only.
  My point is about the importance of the notion of ”meaning” when 
  talking about information. Interpretation of information (meaning 
  generation) is key when information is processed by finalized

Re: [Fis] The notion of meaning... (impredicativity)

2009-04-02 Thread Giuseppe Longo
On Thursday 02 April 2009, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
 It conduces to realizing that the
 information processing of living cells is not of the same class than the
 processes of formal, predicative nature (computation). 

Why computational processes should be necessarely predicative?
Girard's Type Theory (System F) is impredicative yet fully computational (it 
computes exactly the recursive functions provably total in second order 
Arithmetic).
A detailed critique of Rosen's analysis is in:
Matteo Mossio, Giuseppe Longo, John Stewart.  Computability of closure to 
efficient causation.   To appear,  J. of Theoretical Biology, 2009.   
(ftp://ftp.di.ens.fr/pub/users/longo/CIM/comp-closure.pdf).

 Rather, 
 biomolecular processing is a “tactilizing” phenomenon based on a myriad
 of specific “molecular recognition” events (Conrad, 1998; Marijuán,
 2003);

yes, this is the point: the structure of interactions, also beetwen different 
and entangled levels of organization, poses major modelling problems, well 
beyond the computational or the (minor) impredicativity issue (e. g. 
incompatibility between type-free and differentiable manifolds). Rosen was 
wrong on the circularity and impredicativity issue, yet he was right as for 
the global perspective (see the above paper).
Giuseppe Longo 
http://www.di.ens.fr/users/longo 
  
Laboratoire et Departement d'Informatique 
CNRS et Ecole Normale Superieure 
et CREA, Ecole Polytechnique 



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