Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread James Merrill
From my perspective as a former Flash Developer at an Ad agency, I can't
imagine us getting any more serious Flash work. These days we still use
Flash for banner ads, but that's it. We've tried using Adobe Edge to do
HTML5 banners, but it was an awful experience. I rest ALL of my blame on
Adobe for both of these situations, not the underlying technologies.

If you're betting on Adobe, you're going to lose. They've royally screwed
up how they handled this whole Flash fiasco in the last five years. I have
ZERO faith in their Edge HTML5 platform, and I suggest that you don't buy
the hype. Adobe makes good designs software, and that's it.

As AS3 Flash developers, we understand the complexities of RIA's much
better than your average Javascript programmer. We've been doing AJAX far
before it was popularized in mainstream web development. It was sendAndLoad
to us in AS2. We understand animation, interactivity, and user experience
much more than most. That's our strength, and it transcends Flash. A lot of
you may not believe me, but it's becoming a reality that you can make Flash
quality experiences in modern browsers.

As for coding HTML5/CSS/JS in an opensource IDE with Greensock JS, Angular,
or even Jquery, it's getting better. Javascript is not as elegant as AS3,
actually it's more akin to AS2... But progress is being made with new
releases of ECMAScript, and MV* frameworks like Backbone and Angular.

I miss the good ole days of Flash... But times are exciting as a web
developer, I've found some comfort in embracing the change.



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Kevin Newman capta...@unfocus.com wrote:

 On 5/8/13 2:20 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr. wrote:

 Please tell me another software that I can build an app that runs on
 PC/MAC/Linux/iPad/Android/Web (non-mobile)?

 NME / haXe, or with a bit of additional work, Xamarin (with the various
 Mono ports) - or Unity3D - based on the same tech. There are dozens of
 C/C++ based cross platform frameworks as well - Cocos2D, MarmaladeSDK, etc.
 Some scripting engines, CoronaSDK, LoomScript, etc. I still think Flash has
 an edge (except maybe over Xamarin), but tell that to Adobe.

 I wish Adobe was as enthusiastic about defending Flash as you are. That
 would go a long way toward convincing potential buyers, that the platform
 isn't going to evaporate tomorrow. As I said in another post - Flash and
 AIR are great tech, but Adobe's public support is nonexistent, which is
 sad, because it wouldn't take much.

 Kevin N.


 __**_
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.**com Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcodershttp://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders




-- 
James Merrill
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


RE: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Marco Terrinoni
Everything James said. Also where once the Creative suite provided an entire
pipeline for workflow I can honestly say we barely touch it anymore. A
little FW and PS. Maybe a little Illustrator from time to time but that's
it. With their new licensing model I think they're singing their own death
certificate because most savvy designers know the software doesn't change
much over a short enough period to warrant a monthly subscription and will
find alternatives



Marco Terrinoni - Director
MULARAM  PRODUCTIONS
web design // animation // illustration
uk: +44 7876 652 643
e: ma...@mularam.com  
w: www.mularam.com 

-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of James
Merrill
Sent: 09 May 2013 16:19
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

From my perspective as a former Flash Developer at an Ad agency, I 
can't
imagine us getting any more serious Flash work. These days we still use
Flash for banner ads, but that's it. We've tried using Adobe Edge to do
HTML5 banners, but it was an awful experience. I rest ALL of my blame on
Adobe for both of these situations, not the underlying technologies.

If you're betting on Adobe, you're going to lose. They've royally screwed up
how they handled this whole Flash fiasco in the last five years. I have ZERO
faith in their Edge HTML5 platform, and I suggest that you don't buy the
hype. Adobe makes good designs software, and that's it.

As AS3 Flash developers, we understand the complexities of RIA's much better
than your average Javascript programmer. We've been doing AJAX far before
it was popularized in mainstream web development. It was sendAndLoad to us
in AS2. We understand animation, interactivity, and user experience much
more than most. That's our strength, and it transcends Flash. A lot of you
may not believe me, but it's becoming a reality that you can make Flash
quality experiences in modern browsers.

As for coding HTML5/CSS/JS in an opensource IDE with Greensock JS, Angular,
or even Jquery, it's getting better. Javascript is not as elegant as AS3,
actually it's more akin to AS2... But progress is being made with new
releases of ECMAScript, and MV* frameworks like Backbone and Angular.

I miss the good ole days of Flash... But times are exciting as a web
developer, I've found some comfort in embracing the change.



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Kevin Newman capta...@unfocus.com wrote:

 On 5/8/13 2:20 PM, John R. Sweeney Jr. wrote:

 Please tell me another software that I can build an app that runs on 
 PC/MAC/Linux/iPad/Android/Web (non-mobile)?

 NME / haXe, or with a bit of additional work, Xamarin (with the 
 various Mono ports) - or Unity3D - based on the same tech. There are 
 dozens of C/C++ based cross platform frameworks as well - Cocos2D,
MarmaladeSDK, etc.
 Some scripting engines, CoronaSDK, LoomScript, etc. I still think 
 Flash has an edge (except maybe over Xamarin), but tell that to Adobe.

 I wish Adobe was as enthusiastic about defending Flash as you are. 
 That would go a long way toward convincing potential buyers, that the 
 platform isn't going to evaporate tomorrow. As I said in another post 
 - Flash and AIR are great tech, but Adobe's public support is 
 nonexistent, which is sad, because it wouldn't take much.

 Kevin N.


 __**_
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.**com 
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcodershttp://cha
 ttyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders




--
James Merrill
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6308 - Release Date: 05/08/13


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


[Flashcoders] Re: Air is dead (was Flash is dead)

2013-05-09 Thread Randall Tinfow

On 5/9/13 11:19 AM, flashcoders-requ...@chattyfig.figleaf.com wrote:

It's truly next to impossible to sell AIR apps right now.
It depends.  If you are developing video centric applications, I don't 
see a platform that comes close.  WatchESPN is the perfect example.


RT
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Mike Chambers
Check out CreateJS:

http://www.createjs.com/

Includes the ability to export from Flash Pro.

mike chambers

m...@adobe.com

On May 8, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Liu, Peter p...@geico.com wrote:

 Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we can 
 continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Jon Bradley
Nice to see you're still lurking, mesh :)

CreateJS looks interesting and I've toyed with it a bit. Some of the new 
integration opportunities with Flash CC will be interesting to check out. 
However, it'll be primarily a toy and best for demo work until (and if) Adobe 
can create a clear professional solution for the development of creative 
application apps in HTML.

Edge tooling doesn't cut it for robust, performant and maintainable code – at 
least not even close to the same ballpark as those in the space had with 
Flex/Flash. There's some interesting things going on there though.

-j



On May 9, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Mike Chambers wrote:

 Check out CreateJS:
 
 http://www.createjs.com/
 
 Includes the ability to export from Flash Pro.
 
 mike chambers
 
 m...@adobe.com
 
 On May 8, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Liu, Peter p...@geico.com wrote:
 
 Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we can 
 continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?
 
 
 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread James Merrill
Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
the right direction.

I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
glory days of Flash.






On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Jon Bradley shiftedpix...@gmail.comwrote:

 Nice to see you're still lurking, mesh :)

 CreateJS looks interesting and I've toyed with it a bit. Some of the new
 integration opportunities with Flash CC will be interesting to check out.
 However, it'll be primarily a toy and best for demo work until (and if)
 Adobe can create a clear professional solution for the development of
 creative application apps in HTML.

 Edge tooling doesn't cut it for robust, performant and maintainable code –
 at least not even close to the same ballpark as those in the space had with
 Flex/Flash. There's some interesting things going on there though.

 -j



 On May 9, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Mike Chambers wrote:

  Check out CreateJS:
 
  http://www.createjs.com/
 
  Includes the ability to export from Flash Pro.
 
  mike chambers
 
  m...@adobe.com
 
  On May 8, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Liu, Peter p...@geico.com wrote:
 
  Why can't Adobe make HTML5 as one of the publishing options, then we
 can continue to use Flash without the need to learn another program?
 
 
  ___
  Flashcoders mailing list
  Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
  http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders




-- 
James Merrill
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Weyert de Boer
I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I haven't 
been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one that meets the 
maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script is already bigger ;)

Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.

 Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
 the right direction.
 
 I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
 always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
 view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
 libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
 These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
 visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
 glory days of Flash.
 


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Jon Bradley
Yea, that's why it's excellent for demoware. The suite clearly allows creatives 
to demonstrate work and it adds a fair amount of value to prototyping/demo work.

In the keynote, we saw Photoshop to Edge Reflow export – a very useful step to 
PS CC to export graphics quickly and have them in-place to being conceptual 
demo work. Not a single bit of that is production-worthy though – at least not 
the type of production work the company I work for does.

Of course, once you go to Edge Reflow, there's nothing about the code it uses 
and methodology that's implemented that's something I'd ever put in to 
production.

That said, these are all very new tools with a very high potential associated 
with them. I have my fingers crossed that Adobe will do their best for the web 
(HTML/CSS3/Shaders, etc.) that they did by advancing the state-of-the-art with 
Flash.

These are exciting times. Adobe needs to integrate Adobe Ideas into their CC 
products so that they, and ourselves, can see and feedback within the product 
where we, as users, see the value and opportunity.

-j


On May 9, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote:

 I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I 
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one that 
 meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script is 
 already bigger ;)
 
 Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
 Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
 the right direction.
 
 I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
 always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
 view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
 libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
 These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
 visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
 glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread tom rhodes
Did adobe really advance the state of the art with flash though? they did
stuff that the community was screaming for and had been for a long time. It
was often buggy too.

CreteJS is very nice, and it's only just started so I expect it to get
better. For the web I've already done a couple of things with Haxe using
the externs for CreateJS that compile to flash and canvas using exensively
the same code. Just have a class to manage the creation of assets which has
the different code required for Containers/Sprites and the differences in
handling text.  Then your logic stays the same for both targets, you can
even use TimelineMax seamlessly on those assets. It's a very nice way to
work and you get to cover IE6/7 etc. with flash and the iOS/android/devices
with canvas.

Anyway Adobe have killed flash if flash is dead. They hndled the conflict
with Apple in the worst way possible and the negative publicity created
just snowballed to the point where the lesser technology won out. That's a
shit state of affairs in anyone's books.

I echo though the transferable skills from AS3. I started ages ago getting
in to Haxe and that experience is now opening doors for me to start messing
with other languages too.


On 9 May 2013 18:54, Jon Bradley shiftedpix...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yea, that's why it's excellent for demoware. The suite clearly allows
 creatives to demonstrate work and it adds a fair amount of value to
 prototyping/demo work.

 In the keynote, we saw Photoshop to Edge Reflow export – a very useful
 step to PS CC to export graphics quickly and have them in-place to being
 conceptual demo work. Not a single bit of that is production-worthy though
 – at least not the type of production work the company I work for does.

 Of course, once you go to Edge Reflow, there's nothing about the code it
 uses and methodology that's implemented that's something I'd ever put in to
 production.

 That said, these are all very new tools with a very high potential
 associated with them. I have my fingers crossed that Adobe will do their
 best for the web (HTML/CSS3/Shaders, etc.) that they did by advancing the
 state-of-the-art with Flash.

 These are exciting times. Adobe needs to integrate Adobe Ideas into their
 CC products so that they, and ourselves, can see and feedback within the
 product where we, as users, see the value and opportunity.

 -j


 On May 9, 2013, at 12:42 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote:

  I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one
 that meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script
 is already bigger ;)
 
  Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
  Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
  the right direction.
 
  I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
  always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
  view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
  libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
  These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
  visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from
 the
  glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
  ___
  Flashcoders mailing list
  Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
  http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread Mike Chambers
Just an fyi, but this is something that we are working on addressing.

mike chambers

m...@adobe.com

On May 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Weyert de Boer w...@innerfuse.biz wrote:

 I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I 
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one that 
 meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script is 
 already bigger ;)
 
 Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
 Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
 the right direction.
 
 I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
 always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
 view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
 libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
 These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
 visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from the
 glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


Re: [Flashcoders] Adobe Flash future

2013-05-09 Thread tom rhodes
the differences in the flash and createJS apis? or the state of affairs? ;)

no offence meant Mike, just the way it has played out has left a bitter
taste in a lot of peoples mouths I'd reckon. I've personally lost income
through it for sure as I now have to convince people that my skills are
transferable to other technologies, once that gets demonstrated though
there's still the problem of why hire the flash guy when they already had
their html/js/iOS/android/C/java man which they've been using for years :)

if I were in adobe's shoes i'd take a long hard look at Haxe and NME, not
only for targetting multiple platforms with one language but also using
that very same language on the server, the client and obviously that means
the serialized data that passes in between them.

I'd also lean towards opening up the platform instead of trying to monetize
it too hard. the stuff with the memory api plus stage3d meaning you have to
pay for the premium features was just ridiculous timing seeing as it meant
the very features which kept ithe platform head and shoulders above
anything else had a special tax applied.

anyway good luck with it, flash was a great , inventive community around a
really fantastic platform. somehow that all got lost, it would be great to
think it's not irreversible.


On 9 May 2013 20:15, Mike Chambers mcham...@adobe.com wrote:

 Just an fyi, but this is something that we are working on addressing.

 mike chambers

 m...@adobe.com

 On May 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Weyert de Boer w...@innerfuse.biz wrote:

  I think the main issue with EDGE is that it generates such big files. I
 haven't been able to create a useful banner animation with it. Well, one
 that meets the maximum file size for a HTML5 banner. Only the Edge script
 is already bigger ;)
 
  Yes, I have to admit CreateJS looks promising.
 
  Thanks for the link Mike, it seems that CreateJS is definitely a step in
  the right direction.
 
  I'm still not sold on Adobe's EDGE suite though... I am afraid that I'll
  always be skeptical of generated HTML after seeing Dreamweaver's design
  view. I also know from experience that including Adobe Edge's javascript
  libraries in filesize sensitive contexts will really limit your options.
  These things make me worried that there may never be a competent,
  visual-based IDE for HTML... which would be a major step backwards from
 the
  glory days of Flash.
 
 
 
  ___
  Flashcoders mailing list
  Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
  http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders