RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Well... Adobe.com for one. Also, just searching for MXML will get you some Flex sites, also searching for Flex. Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning Technology Solutions >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flashcoders- >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Thatcher >>Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 2:44 PM >>To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' >>Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >>Ahh ok...well thanks for looking. Do you know of any other place I could go >>that is a sort of repository for Flex created apps (e-learning and >>non-e-learning)? >> >>Dan >> >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Merrill, >>Jason >>Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 7:51 AM >>To: Flashcoders mailing list >>Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >>Dan - I looked through all my bookmarks at home last night and couldn't >>find that e-learning course done with Flex - maybe I didn't bookmark it. >>Sorry. Too bad, it was really nicely done. The nice thing is Flex >>provides you with the really great components and state change >>capabilities so you can focus on inserting really rich flash .swfs for >>interaction and presentation, and still do Actionscript. So it really >>could be applied to a host of web applications and interactive >>presentations. >> >>Jason Merrill >>Bank of America >>Learning Technology Solutions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>>-Original Message- >>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flashcoders- >>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Troy Rollins >>>>Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:36 PM >>>>To: Flashcoders mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >>>> >>>> >>>>On May 24, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Dan Thatcher wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have long thought that if the purpose of the RIA movement is to >>>>> create >>>>> desktop like apps that run in your browser...then the platform used >>>>> to build >>>>> those apps would certainly be powerful enough to create e-learning. >>>> >>>>If Flash can be used for e-learning (as we do), what would make it so >>>>incredible to believe that Flex could also? I find e-learning to be >>>>well-suited to forms-style development, particularly if you throw in >>>>some script-driven animation. Seems to me Flex is probably better >>>>suited to this kind of work than Flash is. >>>> >>>>Now, I'm not sure I'd want to develop a cartoon in Flex... >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Troy >>>>RPSystems, Ltd. >>>>http://www.rpsystems.net >>>> >>>> >>>>___ >>>>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>>>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>>>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >>>> >>>>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>>>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>>>http://www.figleaf.com >>>>http://training.figleaf.com >>___ >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>http://www.figleaf.com >>http://training.figleaf.com >> >>___ >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>http://www.figleaf.com >>http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Ahh ok...well thanks for looking. Do you know of any other place I could go that is a sort of repository for Flex created apps (e-learning and non-e-learning)? Dan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Merrill, Jason Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 7:51 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE Dan - I looked through all my bookmarks at home last night and couldn't find that e-learning course done with Flex - maybe I didn't bookmark it. Sorry. Too bad, it was really nicely done. The nice thing is Flex provides you with the really great components and state change capabilities so you can focus on inserting really rich flash .swfs for interaction and presentation, and still do Actionscript. So it really could be applied to a host of web applications and interactive presentations. Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning Technology Solutions >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flashcoders- >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Troy Rollins >>Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:36 PM >>To: Flashcoders mailing list >>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >> >>On May 24, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Dan Thatcher wrote: >> >>> I have long thought that if the purpose of the RIA movement is to >>> create >>> desktop like apps that run in your browser...then the platform used >>> to build >>> those apps would certainly be powerful enough to create e-learning. >> >>If Flash can be used for e-learning (as we do), what would make it so >>incredible to believe that Flex could also? I find e-learning to be >>well-suited to forms-style development, particularly if you throw in >>some script-driven animation. Seems to me Flex is probably better >>suited to this kind of work than Flash is. >> >>Now, I'm not sure I'd want to develop a cartoon in Flex... >> >>-- >>Troy >>RPSystems, Ltd. >>http://www.rpsystems.net >> >> >>___ >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>http://www.figleaf.com >>http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Dan - I looked through all my bookmarks at home last night and couldn't find that e-learning course done with Flex - maybe I didn't bookmark it. Sorry. Too bad, it was really nicely done. The nice thing is Flex provides you with the really great components and state change capabilities so you can focus on inserting really rich flash .swfs for interaction and presentation, and still do Actionscript. So it really could be applied to a host of web applications and interactive presentations. Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning Technology Solutions >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flashcoders- >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Troy Rollins >>Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:36 PM >>To: Flashcoders mailing list >>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >> >>On May 24, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Dan Thatcher wrote: >> >>> I have long thought that if the purpose of the RIA movement is to >>> create >>> desktop like apps that run in your browser...then the platform used >>> to build >>> those apps would certainly be powerful enough to create e-learning. >> >>If Flash can be used for e-learning (as we do), what would make it so >>incredible to believe that Flex could also? I find e-learning to be >>well-suited to forms-style development, particularly if you throw in >>some script-driven animation. Seems to me Flex is probably better >>suited to this kind of work than Flash is. >> >>Now, I'm not sure I'd want to develop a cartoon in Flex... >> >>-- >>Troy >>RPSystems, Ltd. >>http://www.rpsystems.net >> >> >>___ >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>http://www.figleaf.com >>http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
On May 24, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Dan Thatcher wrote: I have long thought that if the purpose of the RIA movement is to create desktop like apps that run in your browser...then the platform used to build those apps would certainly be powerful enough to create e-learning. If Flash can be used for e-learning (as we do), what would make it so incredible to believe that Flex could also? I find e-learning to be well-suited to forms-style development, particularly if you throw in some script-driven animation. Seems to me Flex is probably better suited to this kind of work than Flash is. Now, I'm not sure I'd want to develop a cartoon in Flex... -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
True, I should specify FlexBuilder 2.. are you compiling just via command line or are you using a 3rd party IDE? On May 23, 2006, at 9:58 PM, Mike Chambers wrote: We have had Mac builds of the SDKs (compiler, frameworks, etc...) since beta 2. http://www.adobe.com/go/labs_flex2_downloads In fact, I am developing in AS3 and Flex 2 on my Mac right now. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] On May 23, 2006, at 6:10 PM, Michael Bedar wrote: There may have been alpha's betas available for a while, but they've been PC only.. i have to grind that axe every now and then ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
The nice thing about using Flex for e-learning is you can easily separate functionality from presentation - navigation from interaction. Flex can maintain the application state and present content on demand, while the content can still be highly interactive (.swfs) but doesn't break the framework of the navigation and overall layout. Of course, you can still do this with Flash, but you're mixing all of these into the same environment. One small downside to Flex, is it can be trickier to make very specific modifications the look and feel - but that can be done too. Jason Merrill Bank of America Learning Technology Solutions >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >>Of Dan Thatcher >>Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:07 PM >>To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' >>Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >>Jason, >>that would be great! I would love to see an example of >>e-learning built in Flex! >> >>Bill Lane...you mentioned that you are working on an >>e-learning app in Flex. >>Is there anything that you can show us? Perhaps if you don't >>want to show the whole list you could email me off list? >> >>I have long thought that if the purpose of the RIA movement >>is to create desktop like apps that run in your >>browser...then the platform used to build those apps would >>certainly be powerful enough to create e-learning. >> >>Bill, what has your experience been with using Flex for >>building e-learning? >>Are you far enough along with your project to be able to say >>if you would take the Flex development route for e-learning again? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >>Of Merrill, Jason >>Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 6:14 AM >>To: Flashcoders mailing list >>Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >>I thought it was posted here once, I had it on my bookmarks >>at home I think. I'll try and find it for you. It was very >>well done. I spoke with the developer and he confirmed it >>was all done with Flex, including the module exam. >> >> >>Jason Merrill >>Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning & >>Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions >> >> >> >> >>-Original Message- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >>Of Dan Thatcher >>Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:04 PM >>To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' >>Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >> >>Whoa, hold the phone...eLearning? Do you know/remember what >>the site was? >>I would be very interested to see it >> >>-- >>___ >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com >> >>___ >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >>To change your subscription options or search the archive: >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software >>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training >>http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com >> ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Jason, that would be great! I would love to see an example of e-learning built in Flex! Bill Lane...you mentioned that you are working on an e-learning app in Flex. Is there anything that you can show us? Perhaps if you don't want to show the whole list you could email me off list? I have long thought that if the purpose of the RIA movement is to create desktop like apps that run in your browser...then the platform used to build those apps would certainly be powerful enough to create e-learning. Bill, what has your experience been with using Flex for building e-learning? Are you far enough along with your project to be able to say if you would take the Flex development route for e-learning again? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Merrill, Jason Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 6:14 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE I thought it was posted here once, I had it on my bookmarks at home I think. I'll try and find it for you. It was very well done. I spoke with the developer and he confirmed it was all done with Flex, including the module exam. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning & Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Thatcher Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:04 PM To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE Whoa, hold the phone...eLearning? Do you know/remember what the site was? I would be very interested to see it -- ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
I thought it was posted here once, I had it on my bookmarks at home I think. I'll try and find it for you. It was very well done. I spoke with the developer and he confirmed it was all done with Flex, including the module exam. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning & Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Thatcher Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:04 PM To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE Whoa, hold the phone...eLearning? Do you know/remember what the site was? I would be very interested to see it -- ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Look at building Windows apps--you can use C, C++, MFC, Visual Basic All of which takes place in a single IDE: Visual Studio. Where is "Flash Studio"? To build HTML Web Apps you might use all or a mix of Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Photoshop, JSP, ASP, CF. Etc. Or you might just use Visual Studio, if the design team delivers finished assets. The catch being that the finished assets in Flex are often Flash files, which require code that the designers often can't write, so you need to be able to modify them. The overlap is larger than I think Adobe realizes. As we release Blaze and we have AS3 in both Flash and Flex, it will become easier still to integrate the two, and you will see more and more focus on workflow over time. I look forward to this, because this workflow integration is essential to many of us, where the roles may not be as clear cut as "designer", "developer", etc. The power of Visual Studio is that layouts put together by a designer generate code that developers can modify directly. I can't count the number of times I've had to completely rebuild design assets that were handed to me in a Flash file because the designer couldn't write a line of code and did absolutely everything with the timeline.. In fact, back then, I was running the FreeHand product line at Macromedia (among other things)--should we have said, why add another vector graphics tool to our product line, lets just add a timeline to FreeHand? It would have been a frankenstein. I think the same is true of FlexBuilder and Flash. Frankly, I think the fact that you see those as anologous may be the fundamental problem. FreeHand produces static output, more like photoshop, illustrator, et al. Both Flash and Flex produce interactive content, and are in no way comperable to FreeHand; Flash is more like AfterEffects than FreeHand. Saying that there is "some" overlap is vastly understating the facts. The bottom line is, the designers who work in design departments very often can't write an if...then statement, and don't want or need to learn how to. But basic Flash assets can't be developed without code, which means developers *must* get involved. Your vision of segmenting the workflow is ruined by the very fact that Flash is so powerful and flexible: the developers *muist* be involved in the design of assets regardless of whether it is a small company, one- or two-man team situation, or a large-scale, multi-team situation. Why does Dreamweaver have a "designer view" and a "developer view", but each has access to the features of the other? Why does Visual Studio allow a designer to lay out an app and then let the developer come in and add the code that makes the assets do their thing? These are both clearly because the teams must overlap, and forcing designers and developers to use different tools would be enough to drive many users away to other tools that implemented both. I would happily move to a code-only development paradigm, but my clients and their design departments won't let me, and I think that problem is only becoming more widespread as the "fundamental trend" of RIA development continues. Just my $0.0015 (adjusted for inflation ;-) ) ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
To responde to your post in reverse... For someone like me - someone who's not a Flash developer - the Flash IDE is somewhat overwhelming, and has a bunch of things in it that don't even make sense from a forms-based application development perspective. That's half of what I was saying: making an uber-IDE wouldn't make you or any other developer from a non-Flash background happy, it would give you a large and confusing interface that might make you wonder if it's worth the trouble. Meanwhile, the Flash "designer-types" would see such a release as largely useless, because they don't care about a better code editing panel in Flash. So when I say it's not a good business model, I don't necessarily mean " ooh, they're greedy and want to sell it to us twice", I literally mean I understand it wouldn't be a good decision to release it that way right now. However... You've heard the expression "good, fast and cheap - pick any two", right? I don't think it would have been possible for Macromedia/Adobe to deliver a good, affordable multipurpose IDE in a reasonable timeframe. It's not just about code view, but rather the whole look/feel/approachability of the IDE. Frankly, I just need good, the other two are relative (not to mention being tax deductible ;-) ). What worries me is the previaling opinion that the Flash IDE doesn't need the features that are being built into Flex 2. It needs them *desperately*. Flex shouldn't be a seperate app, it should be a subset of the "Flash Studio" IDE (even better as an eclipse plugin), as should the "classic" Flash IDE. If all you need is to build timeline animations for banner ads or site intros, you just need the animation package. If all you need is to write code for forms apps, you just need Flex. But I want the whole "studio", and I want it in one package so that I don't have to switch apps to work on different parts. Visual Studio isn't just a form designer IDE, it is much, much more than that. It lets you build both the client and the server-side code, the database connectivity, desktop applications and web applications, and so on. Flash needs to fill a similar space, and right now you have to either make a choice between the two or deal with working in both. Why can't I edit the html file the flash piece will be embedded in insoide the IDE? Why can't I edit xml data files in the IDE? Is there actually a good reason, or does someone just thing it's not important? I didn't mind paying for Visual Studio, I didn't mind working past the buggy and delayed releases, and I wouldn't mind the same problems from Flash. I may voice my complaints equally loudly on the appropriate forums, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what those apps have to offer. ;-) ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Hello, I just saw that this month's Edge newsletter has an article on this topic too: http://www.adobe.com/newsletters/edge/may2006/section2.html And it points to a relevent User Group presentation on the topic of Flex for Flash Developers: http://mmusergroup.breezecentral.com/p95561356/ Regards, David Adobe > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of David Mendels > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:28 PM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE > > Hello, > > Let me try to address a few questions on this thread: > > > If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from > > Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE > and Flash > > IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. > > We have an article on this up on the site here that hits just this > topic: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/flex2_flash.html > > In addition, one of the best articles on this is now a bit > old (since Flex 1.0, 2 years ago), but still worth checking > out: The best article on this has been on our site since the > release of Flex 1.0, 2 years ago. > There are a few points in it that are now out of date, > because it certainly predates Flex 2, AS3, the free SDK, the > ability to deploy Flex apps without a server. But the core > ideas in the article are still excellent and should help: > http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/articles/flash_perspective.html > > > - > > Metaphors: two cars to get to work? Or a Boat and Car? > > I don't think either of these metaphors is quite right. But > most complex projects bring together teams of people with > multiple skills and different tools to achieve an aim. Build > a house. The architect will use a cad tool, the carpenter > hammer and nails, the interior designer may use photoshop, > the painter will brushes, etc etc. For a given task, a > carpenter could potentially use a hammer or a screw, but > based on experience, preference etc will usually choose one. > There is no one answer to how a team should build an RIA, but > with Flex and Flash there is now a much richer toolset > available to a wider set of people with differing skills who > can work together to build these RIAs (and others on the team > will use Photoshop, or AfterEffects, or a Java IDE, or PHP, > or or or). If we are right that this RIA idea is a > fundamental trend, having multiple metaphors that let more > people design and build them is a good thing. Look at > building Windows apps--you can use C, C++, MFC, Visual Basic, > Flash Projectors, etc. To build HTML Web Apps you might use > all or a mix of Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Photoshop, JSP, ASP, CF. > Etc. In some cases one person spans all of these roles and > tools and does it all, but more and more teams of people > build these and bring different experiences and skills to the > project, and need different tools and metaphors to contribute. > > > - > > "Flash for animation and Flex for Forms"? > > I think this is a bit too simple. Certainly at the extremes > it is a relatively valid segmentation, but Flash can be used > for Forms and Flex can be used for animation. For us, the > ideal is to enable teams of people that bring the media, > animation, interaction design skills that proliferate in the > Flash community with the coding/architecture skills that > comes from Computer Science backgrounds (not that these are > mutually exclusely) together to build apps the are both media > rich and data rich, that are both beautiful and > transactional, that include forms and visualization, that > integrate with with back end systems from FMS to JMS to > WebServices, that scale and are maintainable. We have a lot > more work to do, but our aim is to enable seamless workflow > for designers and developers to work together more closely > and iteratively to build rich experiences. As we release > Blaze and we have AS3 in both Flash and Flex, it will become > easier still to integrate the two, and you will see more and > more focus on workflow over time. > > For folks who thing Flex is just for "forms", check out: > http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/ (built with Flex 1.5) > http://www.harley-davidson.com/pr/gm/customizer/launchCustomizer.asp > (Built with Flex 1.0) > And take a look at how expressive Flex components can be at > Ely's blog: > http://www.quietlyscheming.com/blog/components/animated-dragti le-compone > nt/ and > http://www.quietlyscheming.com/blog/components/fisheye-component/ > (requ
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
ould we have said, why add another vector graphics tool to our product line, lets just add a timeline to FreeHand? It would have been a frankenstein. I think the same is true of FlexBuilder and Flash. Yes, there is some overlap. But the core, the "soul" of the products, are different and will meet different needs. If we do our jobs, they will also work together beautifully. HTH, David Adobe > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Adam Pasztory > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:03 PM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE > > >>> Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the > difference between the two. I can't see how you can say > that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 > months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples > Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should > need. The only way to really understand the difference is to > attempt to build something with it. > > While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent > quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed > a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I > was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I > assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good > ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. > > If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, > etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between > Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate > Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the > release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the > labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash > Developers who want to transition to Flex? > > I want to like Flex. I really do. I'm not trying to attack > any Flex developers or any of the smart people who work at > Macromedia/Adobe. I'm just sharing my personal observations > around it so far. There's enough contradictory info in this > thread alone to make me think they're not doing a good enough > job getting the message out. The ongoing success of Flash is > important to me personally, and to my career, so I that's why > I've felt the need to say this. > ___ > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > To change your subscription options or search the archive: > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > > Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software > Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training > http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com > ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
its like trying to compare adobe indesign and illustrator, sure they share a lot of common underlying elements but the usage is much different. If I want to layout a 100 page book i will use indesign... If i want to design a poster with rich graphic elements i will use illustrator Flex is for large scale apps, ease of use with ui components and so on... Flash will be for animations on the ole time line and for doing smaller scale apps that need to be much more visually customised. Theres enough space for all of us to play in! If you have tried Flex 2 and can't tell the difference between the 2 IDE's, I don't know what to say.. http://labs.adobe.com/flexproductline/ some video's http://labs.adobe.com/flexproductline/videos/ breeze presentation: http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/productinfo/brz_flex2/ FAQ: http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/productinfo/faq/flex2_faq.html Now, none of the above actually 'compare' both IDE's, but maybe that's because there's no comparing them ;-) Beta 3 comes with a "start page" similar to the one in Flash and other Adobe products that has a list of sample applications, tutorials etc.. I think they've done a great job regarding documentation and stuff to get you going. regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: "Adam Pasztory" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Flashcoders mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the difference between the two. I can't see how you can say that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should need. The only way to really understand the difference is to attempt to build something with it. While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash Developers who want to transition to Flex? I want to like Flex. I really do. I'm not trying to attack any Flex developers or any of the smart people who work at Macromedia/Adobe. I'm just sharing my personal observations around it so far. There's enough contradictory info in this thread alone to make me think they're not doing a good enough job getting the message out. The ongoing success of Flash is important to me personally, and to my career, so I that's why I've felt the need to say this. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
If you have tried Flex 2 and can't tell the difference between the 2 IDE's, I don't know what to say.. http://labs.adobe.com/flexproductline/ some video's http://labs.adobe.com/flexproductline/videos/ breeze presentation: http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/productinfo/brz_flex2/ FAQ: http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/productinfo/faq/flex2_faq.html Now, none of the above actually 'compare' both IDE's, but maybe that's because there's no comparing them ;-) Beta 3 comes with a "start page" similar to the one in Flash and other Adobe products that has a list of sample applications, tutorials etc.. I think they've done a great job regarding documentation and stuff to get you going. regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: "Adam Pasztory" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Flashcoders mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >>> Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the difference between the two. I can't see how you can say that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should need. The only way to really understand the difference is to attempt to build something with it. While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash Developers who want to transition to Flex? I want to like Flex. I really do. I'm not trying to attack any Flex developers or any of the smart people who work at Macromedia/Adobe. I'm just sharing my personal observations around it so far. There's enough contradictory info in this thread alone to make me think they're not doing a good enough job getting the message out. The ongoing success of Flash is important to me personally, and to my career, so I that's why I've felt the need to say this. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
I don't think it's a question good developer vs bad developer. The Flex metaphor was developed to be comfortable to developers coming from a non-Flash background. Most of us were attracted to Flash exactly because it wasn't like those environments. I think you're correct in saying that the existing documentation is written with non-Flash users in mind. Consequently a lot of Flash users may take a while to "get it". I'm still struggling with some of the details. But I'm finding more and more situations where I'm asking myself ; "is it really that easy". But it's taken me quite a few hours to get to that point. Bill Lane >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/24/06 11:03 am >>> >>> Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the difference between the two. I can't see how you can say that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should need. The only way to really understand the difference is to attempt to build something with it. While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash Developers who want to transition to Flex? I want to like Flex. I really do. I'm not trying to attack any Flex developers or any of the smart people who work at Macromedia/Adobe. I'm just sharing my personal observations around it so far. There's enough contradictory info in this thread alone to make me think they're not doing a good enough job getting the message out. The ongoing success of Flash is important to me personally, and to my career, so I that's why I've felt the need to say this. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Adam Pasztory wrote: While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. I agree. Not about the bad developer part. About the clear explanations part. I had to actually start using it to see the differences myself. If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash Developers who want to transition to Flex? These would be helpful. I think thats exactly what the Flash communtiy needs. Some reviews, side by side comparisons, pros and cons of each type of things. I know this things will come out eventually. I wrote a post recently that has a little bit of comparison for the Flash developer but I don't go into too much detail. Check out these links http://www.judahfrangipane.com/?p=22 and http://www.judahfrangipane.com/?p=20 Judah -- "Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing." "You can have anything you want - if you want it badly enough. You can be anything you want to be, do anything you set out to accomplish if you hold to that desire with singleness of purpose." - Abraham Lincoln ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
We have had Mac builds of the SDKs (compiler, frameworks, etc...) since beta 2. http://www.adobe.com/go/labs_flex2_downloads In fact, I am developing in AS3 and Flex 2 on my Mac right now. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] On May 23, 2006, at 6:10 PM, Michael Bedar wrote: There may have been alpha's betas available for a while, but they've been PC only.. i have to grind that axe every now and then ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
A very reasonable axe it is too. Apologies. Bill Lane >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/24/06 11:10 am >>> There may have been alpha's betas available for a while, but they've been PC only.. i have to grind that axe every now and then ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
There may have been alpha's betas available for a while, but they've been PC only.. i have to grind that axe every now and then On May 23, 2006, at 9:03 PM, Adam Pasztory wrote: Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the difference between the two. I can't see how you can say that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should need. The only way to really understand the difference is to attempt to build something with it. While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash Developers who want to transition to Flex? I want to like Flex. I really do. I'm not trying to attack any Flex developers or any of the smart people who work at Macromedia/ Adobe. I'm just sharing my personal observations around it so far. There's enough contradictory info in this thread alone to make me think they're not doing a good enough job getting the message out. The ongoing success of Flash is important to me personally, and to my career, so I that's why I've felt the need to say this. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the difference between the two. I can't see how you can say that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should need. The only way to really understand the difference is to attempt to build something with it. While I think the concept of a beta program is great, I spent quite a few hours poring over the documentation, and followed a few tutorials, and I did not find the clear explanations I was hoping for. Maybe that makes me a bad developer. But I assume Adobe wants to sell to bad developers as well as good ones. :) This was a few months ago, so maybe things have improved. If I'm wrong, please point me to the documentation, FAQs, etc. from Adobe that clearly explain the diferences between Flex IDE and Flash IDE, or details about how to integrate Flex into my workflow. Maybe this is all coming after the release. Or maybe it's been added since I looked through the labs site. Where is the practical tutorial for Flash Developers who want to transition to Flex? I want to like Flex. I really do. I'm not trying to attack any Flex developers or any of the smart people who work at Macromedia/Adobe. I'm just sharing my personal observations around it so far. There's enough contradictory info in this thread alone to make me think they're not doing a good enough job getting the message out. The ongoing success of Flash is important to me personally, and to my career, so I that's why I've felt the need to say this. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
> I don't necessarily agree with you here. The Flash IDE > *could* have a robust and useful "code view" that could also > be used to build flex apps without ever creating an fla file. > That could be used to edit classes and even timeline code, > while the traditional Flash IDE view could be used to make > fla files, edit timeline animations, etc. I think it *could* > be one uber-IDE, as you called it, without necessarily being > either more expensive or less reliable. The root of the > problem is that it's more profitable to have two IDEs, > because one makes developers from other languages happy and > one makes the users of previous Flash versions happy, and in > the middle is a rather large group of people who will have to > pay for both. Making one IDE would only make those in the > middle happy, and would require Adobe to rethink a lot of > their existing code base instead of simply "polishing up" > the existing code base. More work and less profit doesn't > make for a good business model. You've heard the expression "good, fast and cheap - pick any two", right? I don't think it would have been possible for Macromedia/Adobe to deliver a good, affordable multipurpose IDE in a reasonable timeframe. It's not just about code view, but rather the whole look/feel/approachability of the IDE. For someone like me - someone who's not a Flash developer - the Flash IDE is somewhat overwhelming, and has a bunch of things in it that don't even make sense from a forms-based application development perspective. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
> FWIW, IMO, not just forms, but metrics dashboards, shopping > sites, and I even saw a really well done interactive > e-learning course done with Flex. Well, it all depends on what you mean by "forms-based applications". Prior to the web, the term meant something pretty specific - applications built "VB-style" to run within a windowed, event-driven environment (even if that "windowed environment" was in DOS!) It has more to do with the development metaphors of windowing and events than anything else. All of the examples you provided could easily be developed within those metaphors. Now of course, on the Web, "forms" has a much more limited meaning. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
I have been reading this thread with some interest (occassionally cheering and sometimes getting upset). We are currently using the Beta to build an elearning application so I feel I have some useful insights into the differences between the two. Firstly I don't think the difference is as straight-forward as forms vs animation. Many of the things we build will require a blend. Certainly if I was doing anything with forms I'd much rather be building it in Flex. It is much faster to develop form based things in Flex. There is a level of functionality built into the Flex framework that would take many man hours to reproduce in Flash. On the other side I wouldn't want to do any frame based (as opposed to actionscript based ) animation in Flex. But there is a whole spectrum of things that sit between these two extremes. Anything that could be built using actionscript can be built in Flex and once you get used to the way Flex does things I think they can be built faster and that they will be more reliable. Also you can use your Flash built animations in Flex but I'm not sure how easily you could use your Flex built forms in Flash 9. Someone suggested that Adobe hasn't done a good job explaining the difference between the two. I can't see how you can say that. There has been a public beta available for over 6 months and a site almost entirely devoted to it. The Samples Explorer is as clear an explanation as any developer should need. The only way to really understand the difference is to attempt to build something with it. Someone suggests that Adobe's motivation in creating a seperate IDE is profit. But the framework itself is free. I actually don't like Eclipse myself and have been using a seperate editor for Flex development. I always used to use Sepy for my actionscript. But I still had to use Flash for compiling. Now I can compile from the editor. I think it will depend on your background which style of development you will prefer and I think it's great that Flash (as a platform) can be adapted to suit different needs and is open to Open Source options. I also don't think it's helpful to talk about the difference as designers vs developers. I don't think that Flex Builder is a designer free app. I can easily imagine a workflow where the designer prepares the layout and look of an area and then the developer connects the functionality to it. I think the biggest problem with the introduction of Flex is the learning curve. Flex is a new metaphor for Flash development and there is a lot to get used to. But some of that new knowledge is really about the radical changes in Actionscript 3. That is something that will effect all of us sooner or later as it will be part of Flash 9. It is AS3 rather than Flex that will increase the distance between designers and devlopers. Bill Lane ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
Whoa, hold the phone...eLearning? Do you know/remember what the site was? I would be very interested to see it -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Merrill, Jason Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:12 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE >>I think that, despite these features, that's all FlexBuilder is designed for >>- forms-based applications. I don't know much about traditional Flash development, >>but my experience with FlexBuilder leads me to believe that it would be difficult to use >>FlexBuilder to build non-forms-based >>applications (which is presumably different >>from using FlexBuilder as a code editor for ActionScript). FWIW, IMO, not just forms, but metrics dashboards, shopping sites, and I even saw a really well done interactive e-learning course done with Flex. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning & Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
1. Build a single uber-IDE capable of serving traditional Flash developers and Flex developers. Of course, given the fundamental differences between how these development models work, this would essentially consist of shoehorning two IDEs within one program - there would be very little commonality between them. Because they'd be building all this stuff from scratch, it would presumably be more expensive and less reliable. I don't necessarily agree with you here. The Flash IDE *could* have a robust and useful "code view" that could also be used to build flex apps without ever creating an fla file. That could be used to edit classes and even timeline code, while the traditional Flash IDE view could be used to make fla files, edit timeline animations, etc. I think it *could* be one uber-IDE, as you called it, without necessarily being either more expensive or less reliable. The root of the problem is that it's more profitable to have two IDEs, because one makes developers from other languages happy and one makes the users of previous Flash versions happy, and in the middle is a rather large group of people who will have to pay for both. Making one IDE would only make those in the middle happy, and would require Adobe to rethink a lot of their existing code base instead of simply "polishing up" the existing code base. More work and less profit doesn't make for a good business model. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
>>I think that, despite these features, that's all FlexBuilder is designed for >>- forms-based applications. I don't know much about traditional Flash development, >>but my experience with FlexBuilder leads me to believe that it would be difficult to use >>FlexBuilder to build non-forms-based >>applications (which is presumably different >>from using FlexBuilder as a code editor for ActionScript). FWIW, IMO, not just forms, but metrics dashboards, shopping sites, and I even saw a really well done interactive e-learning course done with Flex. Jason Merrill Bank of America | www.bankofamerica.com Learning & Organization Effectiveness Technology Solutions ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
> 1. The mere existance of this thread suggests to me that > Adobe hasn't done an adequate job explaining what purpose > Flex serves, and how it's supposed to integrate with current > workflows. Maybe they will when they release, but they haven't > yet. Of course, everyone else commenting in this thread seems to disagree with you. Perhaps the problem isn't with Adobe? > 2. I don't buy the argument that Flex is *just* for making forms > apps. There are a number of features in Flex that would be highly > desireable for the Flash IDE, such as the ability to use XML > to define a Flash file. If I want to take advantage of these > features, I'm going to have to use Flex, regardless of > whether I am a Forms Developer or a Non-forms Developer. I think that, despite these features, that's all FlexBuilder is designed for - forms-based applications. I don't know much about traditional Flash development, but my experience with FlexBuilder leads me to believe that it would be difficult to use FlexBuilder to build non-forms-based applications (which is presumably different from using FlexBuilder as a code editor for ActionScript). But if all you want to do is write MXML, you could use any XML-aware editor, and validate against the MXML schema. If you're not actually building forms, your MXML will presumably not have much in it, since MXML primarily describes the view of your application as containers and controls. > 3. I am all for Adobe having a wide variety of IDEs, > including Flash Newbie Edition, Flash for Recovering VB > Coders Edition, and Flash Super-Ultra-Mega Enterprise > Edition. But I am questioning the decision to segment the > product line in such a way that requires me to invest in two > overlapping but distinct tools. Well, first, this is largely academic, because they've already done this. And again, this isn't anything new - right now, in my training room, there's a Flex 1.5 class using FlexBuilder 1.5, which is a superset of Dreamweaver. FlexBuilder 1.5 is not especially pleasant to use, in my opinion. So, practically speaking, there seem to have been a limited number of options: 1. Build a single uber-IDE capable of serving traditional Flash developers and Flex developers. Of course, given the fundamental differences between how these development models work, this would essentially consist of shoehorning two IDEs within one program - there would be very little commonality between them. Because they'd be building all this stuff from scratch, it would presumably be more expensive and less reliable. 2. Continue using Dreamweaver as the basis for FlexBuilder. Yecch. 3. Use an existing IDE as the basis of FlexBuilder - one that is already quite popular with the target audience for Flex - Eclipse. But in any case, I don't see these tools as overlapping. As a Flex developer, I doubt I'll ever use the Flash IDE. Despite the use of a common runtime, Flex development seems to me to be fundamentally different from Flash development. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Re: Flex vs. Flash IDE
I hate to keep flogging this topic, but I couldn't stop thinking about this all through lunch. I will make the following comments and then move on to more useful things. 1. The mere existance of this thread suggests to me that Adobe hasn't done an adequate job explaining what purpose Flex serves, and how it's supposed to integrate with current workflows. Maybe they will when they release, but they haven't yet. 2. I don't buy the argument that Flex is *just* for making forms apps. There are a number of features in Flex that would be highly desireable for the Flash IDE, such as the ability to use XML to define a Flash file. If I want to take advantage of these features, I'm going to have to use Flex, regardless of whether I am a Forms Developer or a Non-forms Developer. 3. I am all for Adobe having a wide variety of IDEs, including Flash Newbie Edition, Flash for Recovering VB Coders Edition, and Flash Super-Ultra-Mega Enterprise Edition. But I am questioning the decision to segment the product line in such a way that requires me to invest in two overlapping but distinct tools. I love Flash. If Flex brings more "traditional" developers on board with Flash I think that's great. But I wanted to share my perspective as someone who's been developing Flash for years, that these developments are somewhat perplexing. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
