Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Hello Roger, you told below that they only ever get loaded once. This loaded mean loaded in memory or loaded by transferring over the wire? I've made tests between Modules and SWFLoader, specifically about memory consumption. In one of them, I called loadModule() and unloadModule() several times (loading the same module, of course), and the memory only increases! I think this is the expected (although not the willed) behavior (as is in the SWFLoader) since Flash Player can't really kill (and free the memory) a DisplayObject. It would be a hard work to remove all the references of the loaded application's objects (without talking about the Flex framework per se) to elect they to GC. Thanks Fabio Terracini On 1/9/07, Roger Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main difference between modules and applications is that modules have lower overhead, and they only ever get loaded once, no matter how many times you load them. If you're using the ModuleLoader API, keep in mind that you're losing about half the functionality of the module system. I will assume that you are, because otherwise it would be obvious where to expose methods. You might want to play around with the lower level ModuleManager API just to get a hang of what's going on - ModuleLoader is a pretty thin veneer over the lower API. Basically, what you want to do is to have your module implement an interface, say IModuleWhatever. Have your application implement another interface, say IShellWhatever. Now, add an event handler in the shell application such that when the module is loaded, you get called back. The ModuleLoader's child property will be an instance of your module class. You can cast it to the interface inside the shell application, and then do something like: IModuleWhatever(moduleLoader.child).setupStuff(IShellWhatever(app)) -rg -- *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Holmes *Sent:* Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:05 AM *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Roger, Would it be possible to get an example of how a shell app could communicate or pass data to a module and vice versa. I'm having difficulty understanding of how to expose methods on both sides that allow for interoperability. What I'd like to do is to load user data in the shell application and then add modules at runtime as needed. If they require user information then have them look to the shell for that information so it's always in the same place. And Also, I can't really see any real difference between a module and another application except for it's extremely tedious to debug the modules?! Couldn't the module automatically look for a debug version of the swf if the shell is a debug version? Thanks, Brian -- *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Roger Gonzalez *Sent:* Monday, January 08, 2007 2:35 PM *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules I can't think of any reason why you would want to do this. Modules are class factories, not instances. You will create an instance of the class baked into the module, and then the application can pass those parameters to the instance. -rg -- *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *John Kirby *Sent:* Monday, January 08, 2007 12:32 PM *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Thanks for the examples. Question... if you are passing parameters to a module I assume your url syntax is the same as a SWFLoader (myswf.swf?foo=bar) ... but module has no parameter property? How do access passed parameters to a module? phillips1021 said the following: See: http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-Modules-In-Flex-201 for a simple example. -- *Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right. * - Henry Ford -- *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender by return e-mail delete this e-mail and refrain from any disclosure or action based on the information. ***
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
ModuleLoader is a kind of strange API that is really just intended to look like SwfLoader for modules that contain a single visual component, and hides most of the module loading infrastructure, which is all about class factories. What I mean by only loaded once is that if you have several places in the code that call the ModuleManager.getModule(url).load() call, it will only ever get loaded over the wire and interpreted once, subsequent loads will just re-dispatch pseudo-load events to the new client. In other words, the class factory is a singleton for a given url. Unloading is a totally different story. As you note, not everything is truly unloadable, because there may be lots of references to stuff in the module that will keep it alive and un-GC'ed. I suggest playing with the low-level API so that you understand the backing implementation, and this should help you understand the limits of ModuleLoader. -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fabio Terracini Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 1:43 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Hello Roger, you told below that they only ever get loaded once. This loaded mean loaded in memory or loaded by transferring over the wire? I've made tests between Modules and SWFLoader, specifically about memory consumption. In one of them, I called loadModule() and unloadModule() several times (loading the same module, of course), and the memory only increases! I think this is the expected (although not the willed) behavior (as is in the SWFLoader) since Flash Player can't really kill (and free the memory) a DisplayObject. It would be a hard work to remove all the references of the loaded application's objects (without talking about the Flex framework per se) to elect they to GC. Thanks Fabio Terracini On 1/9/07, Roger Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main difference between modules and applications is that modules have lower overhead, and they only ever get loaded once, no matter how many times you load them. If you're using the ModuleLoader API, keep in mind that you're losing about half the functionality of the module system. I will assume that you are, because otherwise it would be obvious where to expose methods. You might want to play around with the lower level ModuleManager API just to get a hang of what's going on - ModuleLoader is a pretty thin veneer over the lower API. Basically, what you want to do is to have your module implement an interface, say IModuleWhatever. Have your application implement another interface, say IShellWhatever. Now, add an event handler in the shell application such that when the module is loaded, you get called back. The ModuleLoader's child property will be an instance of your module class. You can cast it to the interface inside the shell application, and then do something like: IModuleWhatever(moduleLoader.child).setupStuff(IShellWhatever(app)) -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Brian Holmes Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:05 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Roger, Would it be possible to get an example of how a shell app could communicate or pass data to a module and vice versa. I'm having difficulty understanding of how to expose methods on both sides that allow for interoperability. What I'd like to do is to load user data in the shell application and then add modules at runtime as needed. If they require user information then have them look to the shell for that information so it's always in the same place. And Also, I can't really see any real difference between a module and another application except for it's extremely tedious to debug the modules?! Couldn't the module automatically look for a debug version of the swf if the shell is a debug version? Thanks, Brian From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Roger, Would it be possible to get an example of how a shell app could communicate or pass data to a module and vice versa. I'm having difficulty understanding of how to expose methods on both sides that allow for interoperability. What I'd like to do is to load user data in the shell application and then add modules at runtime as needed. If they require user information then have them look to the shell for that information so it's always in the same place. And Also, I can't really see any real difference between a module and another application except for it's extremely tedious to debug the modules?! Couldn't the module automatically look for a debug version of the swf if the shell is a debug version? Thanks, Brian From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roger Gonzalez Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:35 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules I can't think of any reason why you would want to do this. Modules are class factories, not instances. You will create an instance of the class baked into the module, and then the application can pass those parameters to the instance. -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Kirby Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:32 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Thanks for the examples. Question... if you are passing parameters to a module I assume your url syntax is the same as a SWFLoader (myswf.swf?foo=bar) ... but module has no parameter property? How do access passed parameters to a module? phillips1021 said the following: See: http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-M odules-In-Flex-201 http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using- Modules-In-Flex-201 for a simple example. -- Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right. - Henry Ford *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender by return e-mail delete this e-mail and refrain from any disclosure or action based on the information. ***
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
The main difference between modules and applications is that modules have lower overhead, and they only ever get loaded once, no matter how many times you load them. If you're using the ModuleLoader API, keep in mind that you're losing about half the functionality of the module system. I will assume that you are, because otherwise it would be obvious where to expose methods. You might want to play around with the lower level ModuleManager API just to get a hang of what's going on - ModuleLoader is a pretty thin veneer over the lower API. Basically, what you want to do is to have your module implement an interface, say IModuleWhatever. Have your application implement another interface, say IShellWhatever. Now, add an event handler in the shell application such that when the module is loaded, you get called back. The ModuleLoader's child property will be an instance of your module class. You can cast it to the interface inside the shell application, and then do something like: IModuleWhatever(moduleLoader.child).setupStuff(IShellWhatever(app)) -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Holmes Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:05 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Roger, Would it be possible to get an example of how a shell app could communicate or pass data to a module and vice versa. I'm having difficulty understanding of how to expose methods on both sides that allow for interoperability. What I'd like to do is to load user data in the shell application and then add modules at runtime as needed. If they require user information then have them look to the shell for that information so it's always in the same place. And Also, I can't really see any real difference between a module and another application except for it's extremely tedious to debug the modules?! Couldn't the module automatically look for a debug version of the swf if the shell is a debug version? Thanks, Brian From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roger Gonzalez Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:35 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules I can't think of any reason why you would want to do this. Modules are class factories, not instances. You will create an instance of the class baked into the module, and then the application can pass those parameters to the instance. -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Kirby Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:32 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Thanks for the examples. Question... if you are passing parameters to a module I assume your url syntax is the same as a SWFLoader (myswf.swf?foo=bar) ... but module has no parameter property? How do access passed parameters to a module? phillips1021 said the following: See: http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-M odules-In-Flex-201 http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using- Modules-In-Flex-201 for a simple example. -- Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right. - Henry Ford *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender by return e-mail delete this e-mail and refrain from any disclosure or action based on the information. ***
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Exactly, it isn't so hard to compile modules with command line, but it's all about the general usability of Flex Builder. Why it isn't properly documented? Or they think that one page about compiling modules using mxmlc is enough? There is no mention about compiling modules just inside of FB without using compiler by itself. Why usual developers should spent hours to figure out such a simple issue.. I just can't understand why Adobe is announcing great plans about having a pile of Flex developers and at the same time can't handle simple documentation and usability issue. I really appreciate the work that has been done by Adobe engineers to brought such a great product, but I just compare the level of documenting in MSDN (M$)... -- Best regards, Oleg Filipchuk
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
There is no explicit project type for modules in Flex Builder 2. To create a module in Flex Builder, you treat the module as an MXML application and compile it. There are two basic approaches: 1) One-project model: Create the modules in the same project as your application and add them to the application list. This approach works as long as the application and the modules share the same compiler settings (such as library path). To debug the application with modules, reference the debug SWF file from source code during development, and switch to the non-debug one when you are ready to deploy. 2) Multiple-project model: Create a separate Flex or ActionScript project for each module. Add a linked file to the source folder of your shell projects that want to use it. This copies the module's SWF file over at shell project build time. Alternatively you could point the module project's output folder at your shell project's output folder, but a linked file is better. To support debugging, point the link at the debug SWF file and change that when you are ready to deploy, without altering source code. My apologies for not getting this into the proper documentation. I am currently working on a section about compiling modules with Flex Builder that will be added to livedocs. The reality is that Flex Builder 2.0.1 does not have explicit support for modules. What you need to do (what you have already figured out) is someone hacky. I'll post to this list when the livedocs pages have been updated. -matt horn flex docs -Original Message- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of phillips1021 Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 8:13 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Great question. I've run into the same problem. How do you use Flex Builder to compile just the module? The only work-around I've found so far is to right-click on the module name in the navigator panel and select Run As Flex Application. This command will create a .swf and .html files for the module and try to load it in the browser (where nothing will display). It's not the best solution and I hope someone posts a better one, but it is all I've found to work so far. I did search through the Flex 2.0.1 help files but did not find anything. Bruce
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Matt, thank you for clearing this issue. The Multiple-project model looks more convenient for me. But there is a question about One-project model - it looks like we can't have modules files in the folders as for Flex Builder it isn't possible to treat any mxml file placed anywhere except the root as an application (at least I do not know how). So, thinking logically, for huge application every module should be the separate project. It looks effective for medium size project, but is it so convenient to have hundreds of projects for huge size projects...? Is Flex Builder team planning to make this issue more clear? For example add new button next to debug where will be options to compile modules (if any is open in workspace) that would be very handy for people not preferring to work with command line. -- Best regards, Oleg Filipchuk euroPIN group j.s.c.
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Would it be possible to post an example of how to use the mx.modules? I would assume that you add a mx:Module/mx:Module instead of the Application tag and it would get compiled And then in your shell application you use the mx:ModuleLoader tag to point to your module. Is this correct or am I way off. I can't get it to work either. Also, I also assumed I could just right click on my application in Flex Builder and select the option of New Module. That doesn't work either. I've really been looking forward to modules, but after upgrading this morning and reading your message about how to use them, I'm nothing but extremely confused and discouraged. Brian.. -Original Message- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Horn Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 8:10 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules There is no explicit project type for modules in Flex Builder 2. To create a module in Flex Builder, you treat the module as an MXML application and compile it. There are two basic approaches: 1) One-project model: Create the modules in the same project as your application and add them to the application list. This approach works as long as the application and the modules share the same compiler settings (such as library path). To debug the application with modules, reference the debug SWF file from source code during development, and switch to the non-debug one when you are ready to deploy. 2) Multiple-project model: Create a separate Flex or ActionScript project for each module. Add a linked file to the source folder of your shell projects that want to use it. This copies the module's SWF file over at shell project build time. Alternatively you could point the module project's output folder at your shell project's output folder, but a linked file is better. To support debugging, point the link at the debug SWF file and change that when you are ready to deploy, without altering source code. My apologies for not getting this into the proper documentation. I am currently working on a section about compiling modules with Flex Builder that will be added to livedocs. The reality is that Flex Builder 2.0.1 does not have explicit support for modules. What you need to do (what you have already figured out) is someone hacky. I'll post to this list when the livedocs pages have been updated. -matt horn flex docs -Original Message- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of phillips1021 Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 8:13 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Great question. I've run into the same problem. How do you use Flex Builder to compile just the module? The only work-around I've found so far is to right-click on the module name in the navigator panel and select Run As Flex Application. This command will create a .swf and .html files for the module and try to load it in the browser (where nothing will display). It's not the best solution and I hope someone posts a better one, but it is all I've found to work so far. I did search through the Flex 2.0.1 help files but did not find anything. Bruce -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender by return e-mail delete this e-mail and refrain from any disclosure or action based on the information. ***
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Just make a new project. You'll need to change the root tag from mx:Application to mx:Module for a MXML project, or change the base class of an ActionScript project from flash.display.Sprite to mx.modules.ModuleBase because FlexBuilder doesn't know about modules directly. (There is some odd asymmetry in the FB project structure in that you can add a new MXML Application (which could be a module) to a MXML project - its a many-to-one relationship, but you can't add a new AS Application to an AS project, its always one-to-one.) -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of phillips1021 Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:13 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Great question. I've run into the same problem. How do you use Flex Builder to compile just the module? The only work-around I've found so far is to right-click on the module name in the navigator panel and select Run As Flex Application. This command will create a .swf and .html files for the module and try to load it in the browser (where nothing will display). It's not the best solution and I hope someone posts a better one, but it is all I've found to work so far. I did search through the Flex 2.0.1 help files but did not find anything. Bruce
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
Thanks for the examples. Question... if you are passing parameters to a module I assume your url syntax is the same as a SWFLoader (myswf.swf?foo=bar) ... but module has no parameter property? How do access passed parameters to a module? phillips1021 said the following: See: http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-Modules-In-Flex-201 http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-Modules-In-Flex-201 for a simple example. -- /Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right./ - Henry Ford
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
I can't think of any reason why you would want to do this. Modules are class factories, not instances. You will create an instance of the class baked into the module, and then the application can pass those parameters to the instance. -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Kirby Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:32 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Thanks for the examples. Question... if you are passing parameters to a module I assume your url syntax is the same as a SWFLoader (myswf.swf?foo=bar) ... but module has no parameter property? How do access passed parameters to a module? phillips1021 said the following: See: http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-M odules-In-Flex-201 http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using- Modules-In-Flex-201 for a simple example. -- Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right. - Henry Ford
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
I don't think you're expected to pass parameters to a module. You're expected to call methods that it exposes. - Gordon From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Kirby Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:32 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Thanks for the examples. Question... if you are passing parameters to a module I assume your url syntax is the same as a SWFLoader (myswf.swf?foo=bar) ... but module has no parameter property? How do access passed parameters to a module? phillips1021 said the following: See: http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using-M odules-In-Flex-201 http://www.brucephillips.name/blog/index.cfm/2007/1/8/Example-Of-Using- Modules-In-Flex-201 for a simple example. -- Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right. - Henry Ford
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules
You just described it. Its just a normal project. Create a project for your module, create a project for your application, make sure you know what the binary path is going to be, and use that SWF path as your ModuleLoader url. Modules were functionality snuck into a dot release. There's no tooling support. If we'd waited for tooling support, you'd be waiting until Flex 3. So, you'll have to do a bit more manually. Its annoying, but not particularly onerous. -rg From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Holmes Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:07 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Would it be possible to post an example of how to use the mx.modules? I would assume that you add a mx:Module/mx:Module instead of the Application tag and it would get compiled And then in your shell application you use the mx:ModuleLoader tag to point to your module. Is this correct or am I way off. I can't get it to work either. Also, I also assumed I could just right click on my application in Flex Builder and select the option of New Module. That doesn't work either. I've really been looking forward to modules, but after upgrading this morning and reading your message about how to use them, I'm nothing but extremely confused and discouraged. Brian.. -Original Message- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Matt Horn Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 8:10 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules There is no explicit project type for modules in Flex Builder 2. To create a module in Flex Builder, you treat the module as an MXML application and compile it. There are two basic approaches: 1) One-project model: Create the modules in the same project as your application and add them to the application list. This approach works as long as the application and the modules share the same compiler settings (such as library path). To debug the application with modules, reference the debug SWF file from source code during development, and switch to the non-debug one when you are ready to deploy. 2) Multiple-project model: Create a separate Flex or ActionScript project for each module. Add a linked file to the source folder of your shell projects that want to use it. This copies the module's SWF file over at shell project build time. Alternatively you could point the module project's output folder at your shell project's output folder, but a linked file is better. To support debugging, point the link at the debug SWF file and change that when you are ready to deploy, without altering source code. My apologies for not getting this into the proper documentation. I am currently working on a section about compiling modules with Flex Builder that will be added to livedocs. The reality is that Flex Builder 2.0.1 does not have explicit support for modules. What you need to do (what you have already figured out) is someone hacky. I'll post to this list when the livedocs pages have been updated. -matt horn flex docs -Original Message- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of phillips1021 Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 8:13 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Compiling modules Great question. I've run into the same problem. How do you use Flex Builder to compile just the module? The only work-around I've found so far is to right-click on the module name in the navigator panel and select Run As Flex Application. This command will create a .swf and .html files for the module and try to load it in the browser (where nothing will display). It's not the best solution and I hope someone posts a better one, but it is all I've found to work so far. I did search through the Flex 2.0.1 help files but did not find anything. Bruce
