RE: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
Some architectural pattern is going to be necessary if the app is of any size and has a team working on it. Otherwise, each developer will solve their problems in their own way and can lead to chaos. You can formulate the architectural pattern yourself or use a published framework. As you said, using a published framework in some ways might make it easier to bring developers on board. Frameworks are intended to be implementations of architectural patterns - the framework choice IMO is based upon what gives you the best balance of freedom to solve your problems as you choose, with ways of solving problems without having to reinvent the wheel all the time. I've used Cairngorm a lot in the past, but I've kind of soured on it - doesn't solve enough problems, IMO. It is NOT module-friendly; in particular the ModelLocator singleton does not lend itself to unloading modules. I'm liking the direction that Cairngorm 3 is taking - it is less a proscriptive framework than a collection of best practices and libraries you can choose to use or not. It does use the capabilities of Parsley for wiring the application together and so far in my projects, it works great. -Original Message- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcod...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tntomek Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:29 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice Thumbs up for just using Flex SDK as the framework. Make good use of custom business interfaces and ensure all developers develop controls within some container vs Application/Module (leave the loading of their actual code to someone who really understands Flex). Also take the hit and wrap most Flex controls with your own, it will come in handy in future. -Tomek (http://tomek.me) --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reyna...@... wrote: I have been tasked with architecting a large application for a company a friend of mine works at. I will also do some of the coding and act as a mentor, teaching people on staff the ins and outs of Flex. In the past, I've always used Cairngorm and Cairngorm w/ UM Extensions for a framework. I wrote a very basic app w/ Mate once just to learn it and I didn't really like it. So, my question to everyone here is what Framework would you chose? Keep in mind, the people I'll be working with are relatively new to flex and the application is going to end up being quite large. Down the road it will likely have an AIR counterpart. We might use modules but for now I'm staying away from that because it adds another layer of complexity that in the initial stages is not needed. My thoughts on this are that Cairngorm would be easier to learn for them and they had talked about brining more people on in the future for this project. If that's the case, it would likely be easier to find people familiar with Cairngorm than some of the alternatives. But, I don't want to rule out any of the alternatives if they might actually be a better choice. Opinions please. Thanks! -Jake Churchill -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Alternative FAQ location: https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=942dbdc8-e469-446f-b4cf-1e62079f6847 Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
I have never written an app using modules. I understand the logic behind it, I've just never had the need. Is there anything regarding modules that I should know before starting? On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:27 AM, valdhor valdhorli...@embarqmail.comwrote: I have an extremely large enterprise application (24 modules and counting) that does not use any framework. If you can discipline yourself in the way you organize your code, I don't really see the need for a framework. It just adds complexity in my view. I would recommend starting with modules if you see the need may be coming later on. I started with a monolithic app while I was learning Flex and had to change over to modules six months in. That was no fun I can tell you. Now that each part is in a module it makes it much easier for other team members to modify the code. It is also a lot easier to follow the logic. I would also recommend a versioning system - we use Subversion. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reyna...@... wrote: I have been tasked with architecting a large application for a company a friend of mine works at. I will also do some of the coding and act as a mentor, teaching people on staff the ins and outs of Flex. In the past, I've always used Cairngorm and Cairngorm w/ UM Extensions for a framework. I wrote a very basic app w/ Mate once just to learn it and I didn't really like it. So, my question to everyone here is what Framework would you chose? Keep in mind, the people I'll be working with are relatively new to flex and the application is going to end up being quite large. Down the road it will likely have an AIR counterpart. We might use modules but for now I'm staying away from that because it adds another layer of complexity that in the initial stages is not needed. My thoughts on this are that Cairngorm would be easier to learn for them and they had talked about brining more people on in the future for this project. If that's the case, it would likely be easier to find people familiar with Cairngorm than some of the alternatives. But, I don't want to rule out any of the alternatives if they might actually be a better choice. Opinions please. Thanks! -Jake Churchill
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
Even if you organize your code to some sort of internally formulated organization, you're already kind of using a framework - of your own creation. The disadvantage to that IMO, as soon as you start writing one you now become responsible for documenting your particular approach and communicating it to developers who might also work on your project. If your project needs to scale, using a published framework gives you the ability to find resources who also know the framework, and gets them up to speed more quickly. I've been on projects (otherwise known as nightmares) where the previous developer used no framework, and didn't document what they did. I remember one in particular where it was stated that it might take 6 months to get up to speed on the way the app was built. That's just a waste of time and money. All that said, I've used Cairngorm for years and the original version, while workable, is taking a back seat to IOC frameworks. I'm using Cairngorm 3 and Parsley and I really like the development model. Jeff From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcod...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jake Churchill Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:39 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice I have never written an app using modules. I understand the logic behind it, I've just never had the need. Is there anything regarding modules that I should know before starting? On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:27 AM, valdhor valdhorli...@embarqmail.commailto:valdhorli...@embarqmail.com wrote: I have an extremely large enterprise application (24 modules and counting) that does not use any framework. If you can discipline yourself in the way you organize your code, I don't really see the need for a framework. It just adds complexity in my view. I would recommend starting with modules if you see the need may be coming later on. I started with a monolithic app while I was learning Flex and had to change over to modules six months in. That was no fun I can tell you. Now that each part is in a module it makes it much easier for other team members to modify the code. It is also a lot easier to follow the logic. I would also recommend a versioning system - we use Subversion. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.commailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reyna...@... wrote: I have been tasked with architecting a large application for a company a friend of mine works at. I will also do some of the coding and act as a mentor, teaching people on staff the ins and outs of Flex. In the past, I've always used Cairngorm and Cairngorm w/ UM Extensions for a framework. I wrote a very basic app w/ Mate once just to learn it and I didn't really like it. So, my question to everyone here is what Framework would you chose? Keep in mind, the people I'll be working with are relatively new to flex and the application is going to end up being quite large. Down the road it will likely have an AIR counterpart. We might use modules but for now I'm staying away from that because it adds another layer of complexity that in the initial stages is not needed. My thoughts on this are that Cairngorm would be easier to learn for them and they had talked about brining more people on in the future for this project. If that's the case, it would likely be easier to find people familiar with Cairngorm than some of the alternatives. But, I don't want to rule out any of the alternatives if they might actually be a better choice. Opinions please. Thanks! -Jake Churchill
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
If you know there are Cairngorm and Mate, you can be sure, you can write one of your own. And if you used either one of those even briefly, you can write a better one. This said, my choice would be none. I'm writing that myself, and, you just cannot imagine my happiness - two days ago I finally removed the last Cairngorm piece from the big project I inherited long ago and had a hell of a time refactoring. Don't make yourself a victim of other short-witted programmers, unless you absolutely must. Your own errors are much easier to fix, especially, if you work alone or with a small team. Best. Oleg
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
I've been pretty happy with Mate and the Presentation Model pattern. My main issue is the lack of type-safety in the event maps, so at some point I should check out Swiz, Parsley etc. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Oleg Sivokon olegsivo...@gmail.comwrote: If you know there are Cairngorm and Mate, you can be sure, you can write one of your own. And if you used either one of those even briefly, you can write a better one. This said, my choice would be none. I'm writing that myself, and, you just cannot imagine my happiness - two days ago I finally removed the last Cairngorm piece from the big project I inherited long ago and had a hell of a time refactoring. Don't make yourself a victim of other short-witted programmers, unless you absolutely must. Your own errors are much easier to fix, especially, if you work alone or with a small team. Best. Oleg
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
I think the discussion of modules is only relevant in so far as some frameworks (Cairngorm?) won't work well with them if they make use of singletons. Any reasonable-sized single-module app (a pretty large proportion of Flex apps, I'd wager) benefits from a good MVC architecture. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:31 AM, valdhor valdhorli...@embarqmail.comwrote: I actually read the documentation around five or six times until I was sure I understood it and then used places like Alex's blog ( http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui/2007/03/modules.html) to fill in any gaps. The biggest hurdle I had was in understanding how to use interfaces so that the main app (Which holds the menubar etc) and each of the modules could exchange data. Once you figure it out, you will never go back. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reyna...@... wrote: I have never written an app using modules. I understand the logic behind it, I've just never had the need. Is there anything regarding modules that I should know before starting? On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:27 AM, valdhor valdhorli...@...wrote: I have an extremely large enterprise application (24 modules and counting) that does not use any framework. If you can discipline yourself in the way you organize your code, I don't really see the need for a framework. It just adds complexity in my view. I would recommend starting with modules if you see the need may be coming later on. I started with a monolithic app while I was learning Flex and had to change over to modules six months in. That was no fun I can tell you. Now that each part is in a module it makes it much easier for other team members to modify the code. It is also a lot easier to follow the logic. I would also recommend a versioning system - we use Subversion. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reynacho@ wrote: I have been tasked with architecting a large application for a company a friend of mine works at. I will also do some of the coding and act as a mentor, teaching people on staff the ins and outs of Flex. In the past, I've always used Cairngorm and Cairngorm w/ UM Extensions for a framework. I wrote a very basic app w/ Mate once just to learn it and I didn't really like it. So, my question to everyone here is what Framework would you chose? Keep in mind, the people I'll be working with are relatively new to flex and the application is going to end up being quite large. Down the road it will likely have an AIR counterpart. We might use modules but for now I'm staying away from that because it adds another layer of complexity that in the initial stages is not needed. My thoughts on this are that Cairngorm would be easier to learn for them and they had talked about brining more people on in the future for this project. If that's the case, it would likely be easier to find people familiar with Cairngorm than some of the alternatives. But, I don't want to rule out any of the alternatives if they might actually be a better choice. Opinions please. Thanks! -Jake Churchill
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Framework Choice
No worries. I just think the two choices (framework vs none, modules or none) are orthogonal. And if I were building non-trivial modules, I would want an MVC architecture within them. The first app I built was based on Joe Noteflight Berkovitz' MVCS article (i.e. no framework), and I used to advise people to consider the no-framework approach (because I wasn't impressed with Cairngorm). But that was before Mate, and I really like the dependency injection approach of Mate. Glad your architecture has worked out well for you. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:25 PM, valdhor valdhorli...@embarqmail.comwrote: Not to sound facetious but the OP asked the question after I gave my recommendation to use modules so I thought I would give him the details on how I learned. Anyway, my personal cost/benefit analysis on all the frameworks persuaded me to just not use any of them. The time to learn them outweighed any benefit I could foresee. We on-boarded a new developer that learned both Flex and our code architecture and had written and deployed a new non-trivial module within two months including back end PHP code with WebORB. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Rodseth rrods...@... wrote: I think the discussion of modules is only relevant in so far as some frameworks (Cairngorm?) won't work well with them if they make use of singletons. Any reasonable-sized single-module app (a pretty large proportion of Flex apps, I'd wager) benefits from a good MVC architecture. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:31 AM, valdhor valdhorli...@...wrote: I actually read the documentation around five or six times until I was sure I understood it and then used places like Alex's blog ( http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui/2007/03/modules.html) to fill in any gaps. The biggest hurdle I had was in understanding how to use interfaces so that the main app (Which holds the menubar etc) and each of the modules could exchange data. Once you figure it out, you will never go back. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reynacho@ wrote: I have never written an app using modules. I understand the logic behind it, I've just never had the need. Is there anything regarding modules that I should know before starting? On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:27 AM, valdhor valdhorlists@wrote: I have an extremely large enterprise application (24 modules and counting) that does not use any framework. If you can discipline yourself in the way you organize your code, I don't really see the need for a framework. It just adds complexity in my view. I would recommend starting with modules if you see the need may be coming later on. I started with a monolithic app while I was learning Flex and had to change over to modules six months in. That was no fun I can tell you. Now that each part is in a module it makes it much easier for other team members to modify the code. It is also a lot easier to follow the logic. I would also recommend a versioning system - we use Subversion. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.comflexcoders% 40yahoogroups.com, Jake Churchill reynacho@ wrote: I have been tasked with architecting a large application for a company a friend of mine works at. I will also do some of the coding and act as a mentor, teaching people on staff the ins and outs of Flex. In the past, I've always used Cairngorm and Cairngorm w/ UM Extensions for a framework. I wrote a very basic app w/ Mate once just to learn it and I didn't really like it. So, my question to everyone here is what Framework would you chose? Keep in mind, the people I'll be working with are relatively new to flex and the application is going to end up being quite large. Down the road it will likely have an AIR counterpart. We might use modules but for now I'm staying away from that because it adds another layer of complexity that in the initial stages is not needed. My thoughts on this are that Cairngorm would be easier to learn for them and they had talked about brining more people on in the future for this project. If that's the case, it would likely be easier to find people familiar with Cairngorm than some of the alternatives. But, I don't want to rule out any of the alternatives if they might actually be a better choice. Opinions please. Thanks! -Jake Churchill
