[Flightgear-devel] Re: [RFC] panel bindings
* Melchior FRANZ -- Monday 20 June 2005 17:36: - let FGBinding store just references *again* - only make copies of bindings that would otherwise get lost (affects the panel only, AFAIK) Whoops. No. It also affects the GUI. Non-Nasal-based dialogs do now only work on first call. After that all bindings are gone and the dialog doesn't do *anything*. Not even go away. :-) I'm working on that. The dialog code must not assume that bindings magically stay available, hidden away in some secret places. They need to remain in the dialog's subtree ... m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flightgear-devel-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vivian Meazza
Sent: 20 June 2005 13:13
To: 'FlightGear developers discussions'
Subject: RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Melchior FRANZ
* Vivian Meazza -- Saturday 18 June 2005 12:22:
void Thruster::setThrottle(float throttle)
{
_throttle = Math::clamp(throttle, 0, 1);
}
Will this prevent a negative value for:
control-input axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/boost-control
control=THROTTLE/
No, but this will:
ControlMap.cpp:83:
map-src0 = map-dst0 = rangeMin(type);
ControlMap.cpp:222:---
float ControlMap::rangeMin(int type)
{
// The minimum of the range for each type of control
switch(type) {
case FLAP0:return -1; // [-1:1]
case FLAP1:return -1;
case STEER:return -1;
case CYCLICELE: return -1;
case CYCLICAIL: return -1;
case COLLECTIVE: return -1;
case MAGNETOS: return 0; // [0:3]
default: return 0; // [0:1]
}
}
There's no THROTTLE, so we get the default 0 set for map-{src,dst}0.
You can avoid that by setting {src,dst}{0,1} explicitly, for example:
control-input axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/boost-control
src0=-1 src1=1 dst0=-1 dst1=1
control=THROTTLE/
Right - that fixes the problem.
With Melchior's valuable help I have developed a nasal simulation of the
Boost Control and Boost Control Cutout for the Hurricane. This should be
committed to cvs shortly. When a preset boost value is exceeded, the Boost
Control acts to reduce throttle opening. This action can be overridden by
the Boost Control Cutout which allows maximum boost. The output of the Boost
Control is smoothed by a low-pass filter selected by Melchior. You will
notice an overshoot and some lag if the throttle is opened quickly.
To make it work a patch (for cvs/head) is required to YASim - attached. A
new attribute 'supercharger' has been added to the aircraft config file.
When this is true, the attribute 'wastegate' no longer controls the
supercharger output. If you want to try the update to the Hurricane, you
will need to apply this patch. It will not adversely affect any other YASim
model, so far as I can tell.
Both the nasal and YASim patch are temporary; both will require reworking
when Andy comes up with his revision of YASim to include the new
supercharger code.
Any testing would be welcome, although Melchior is doing his best to break
it already! In particular any feedback on any adverse effects on other
models would be good.
Regards,
Vivian
yasim3.diff
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RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
With Melchior's valuable help I have developed a nasal simulation of the Boost Control and Boost Control Cutout for the Hurricane. This should be committed to cvs shortly. When a preset boost value is exceeded, the Boost Control acts to reduce throttle opening. This action can be overridden by the Boost Control Cutout which allows maximum boost. The output of the Boost Control is smoothed by a low-pass filter selected by Melchior. You will notice an overshoot and some lag if the throttle is opened quickly. To make it work a patch (for cvs/head) is required to YASim - attached. A new attribute 'supercharger' has been added to the aircraft config file. When this is true, the attribute 'wastegate' no longer controls the supercharger output. If you want to try the update to the Hurricane, you will need to apply this patch. It will not adversely affect any other YASim model, so far as I can tell. Both the nasal and YASim patch are temporary; both will require reworking when Andy comes up with his revision of YASim to include the new supercharger code. Any testing would be welcome, although Melchior is doing his best to break it already! In particular any feedback on any adverse effects on other models would be good. Regards, Vivian Do we have the same project, on JSBSim ? What must be done for it ? -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Gerard With Melchior's valuable help I have developed a nasal simulation of the Boost Control and Boost Control Cutout for the Hurricane. This should be committed to cvs shortly. When a preset boost value is exceeded, the Boost Control acts to reduce throttle opening. This action can be overridden by the Boost Control Cutout which allows maximum boost. The output of the Boost Control is smoothed by a low-pass filter selected by Melchior. You will notice an overshoot and some lag if the throttle is opened quickly. To make it work a patch (for cvs/head) is required to YASim - attached. A new attribute 'supercharger' has been added to the aircraft config file. When this is true, the attribute 'wastegate' no longer controls the supercharger output. If you want to try the update to the Hurricane, you will need to apply this patch. It will not adversely affect any other YASim model, so far as I can tell. Both the nasal and YASim patch are temporary; both will require reworking when Andy comes up with his revision of YASim to include the new supercharger code. Any testing would be welcome, although Melchior is doing his best to break it already! In particular any feedback on any adverse effects on other models would be good. Regards, Vivian Do we have the same project, on JSBSim ? What must be done for it ? I'm not sure where the supercharger stuff is at on JSBSim. Certainly doesn't have a Boost Control Cutout. I'm not working on it - I've only just begun to understand YASim. One thing at a time :-). I'm not aware of any requirement in JSBSim Right now I've only researched the RR Merlin in any detail. Enough for our current range of supercharged models. I don't know if Josh Babcock needs anything special for the B29. V. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Le vendredi 24 juin 2005 à 15:41 +0100, Vivian Meazza a écrit : Gerard With Melchior's valuable help I have developed a nasal simulation of the Boost Control and Boost Control Cutout for the Hurricane. This should be committed to cvs shortly. When a preset boost value is exceeded, the Boost Control acts to reduce throttle opening. This action can be overridden by the Boost Control Cutout which allows maximum boost. The output of the Boost Control is smoothed by a low-pass filter selected by Melchior. You will notice an overshoot and some lag if the throttle is opened quickly. To make it work a patch (for cvs/head) is required to YASim - attached. A new attribute 'supercharger' has been added to the aircraft config file. When this is true, the attribute 'wastegate' no longer controls the supercharger output. If you want to try the update to the Hurricane, you will need to apply this patch. It will not adversely affect any other YASim model, so far as I can tell. Both the nasal and YASim patch are temporary; both will require reworking when Andy comes up with his revision of YASim to include the new supercharger code. Any testing would be welcome, although Melchior is doing his best to break it already! In particular any feedback on any adverse effects on other models would be good. Regards, Vivian Do we have the same project, on JSBSim ? What must be done for it ? I'm not sure where the supercharger stuff is at on JSBSim. Certainly doesn't have a Boost Control Cutout. I'm not working on it - I've only just begun to understand YASim. One thing at a time :-). I'm not aware of any requirement in JSBSim Right now I've only researched the RR Merlin in any detail. Enough for our current range of supercharged models. I don't know if Josh Babcock needs anything special for the B29. V. Thanks, My question could be a question to Jon, Dave, and any JSB specialist. I just wonder, about, the opportunity to get profit of your work for developments on the JSB branch. The properties should be the same on the global FG level. Both FDM -YASim -JSBSim with a different philosophic approach should give the same end results. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Last Driver NVIDIA 7667:==approach lighting rabbit DO NOT Conflict with Graphic Card
Le mercredi 22 juin 2005 à 17:55 +0200, Gerard Robin a écrit : A better fix might be to use point lights for VASI/PAPI rather than commenting them out entirely. Here's my theory. VASI/PAPI and the get drawn with larger antialiased points. These are unaccelerated for the I suspect that they are intentionally making antialiased points artificially slow in their latest drivers to prevent people like us from getting away with using just a few here and there without upgrading to really high priced Quadro cards. I could be wrong ... maybe there's a valid technical reason, but this sounds more like a marketing thing than a driver bug from my perspective. Curt. Thank Curt that explanation , is the good one. Gerard I am Just Ending the test of the last NVIDIA driver 7667 june-22 The slowness in FG with VASI as vanished. That new driver seems right when working with existing OpenGL functionalities used by FG. I just notice a global speed a bit less than before (7664, without VASI). Good NEWS. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New aircraft ideas ?
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:26:40 -0700 (PDT), Alex wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Got an idea for a new aircraft (not airplane) you'd like to try ? http://www.dodsbir.net/Topics/Default.asp Topic: A05-208 ..concerns semiballistic 40-105 mm munitions with enhanced lethality capable of striking targets of opportunity along the modifiable ballistic trajectory. ..I'd like to see such devices make full use of the 4 Geneva Conventions to save lives and instead maximize combat damage to the enemy, as wounded men are about 4 to 5 times more expensive to any military force than dead men. A successful small arms femur shot takes a year to heal back into combatworthy status. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New aircraft ideas ?
Le vendredi 24 juin 2005 à 17:39 +0200, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:26:40 -0700 (PDT), Alex wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Got an idea for a new aircraft (not airplane) you'd like to try ? http://www.dodsbir.net/Topics/Default.asp Topic: A05-208 ...concerns semiballistic 40-105 mm munitions with enhanced lethality capable of striking targets of opportunity along the modifiable ballistic trajectory. ...I'd like to see such devices make full use of the 4 Geneva Conventions to save lives and instead maximize combat damage to the enemy, as wounded men are about 4 to 5 times more expensive to any military force than dead men. A successful small arms femur shot takes a year to heal back into combatworthy status. Yea, It was New BAD aircraft ideas :=( -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Last Driver NVIDIA 7667:==approach lighting rabbit DO NOT Conflict with Graphic Card
Le vendredi 24 juin 2005 à 18:53 +0200, Gerard Robin a écrit : Le mercredi 22 juin 2005 à 17:55 +0200, Gerard Robin a écrit : A better fix might be to use point lights for VASI/PAPI rather than commenting them out entirely. Here's my theory. VASI/PAPI and the get drawn with larger antialiased points. These are unaccelerated for the I suspect that they are intentionally making antialiased points artificially slow in their latest drivers to prevent people like us from getting away with using just a few here and there without upgrading to really high priced Quadro cards. I could be wrong ... maybe there's a valid technical reason, but this sounds more like a marketing thing than a driver bug from my perspective. Curt. Thank Curt that explanation , is the good one. Gerard I am Just Ending the test of the last NVIDIA driver 7667 june-22 The slowness in FG with VASI as vanished. That new driver seems right when working with existing OpenGL functionalities used by FG. I just notice a global speed a bit less than before (7664, without VASI). Good NEWS. I forgot to say, that message is only dedicated to FG users, Others 3D textured applications are less good with that new driver. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Vivian Meazza wrote: Gerard With Melchior's valuable help I have developed a nasal simulation of the Boost Control and Boost Control Cutout for the Hurricane. This should be committed to cvs shortly. When a preset boost value is exceeded, the Boost Control acts to reduce throttle opening. This action can be overridden by the Boost Control Cutout which allows maximum boost. The output of the Boost Control is smoothed by a low-pass filter selected by Melchior. You will notice an overshoot and some lag if the throttle is opened quickly. To make it work a patch (for cvs/head) is required to YASim - attached. A new attribute 'supercharger' has been added to the aircraft config file. When this is true, the attribute 'wastegate' no longer controls the supercharger output. If you want to try the update to the Hurricane, you will need to apply this patch. It will not adversely affect any other YASim model, so far as I can tell. Both the nasal and YASim patch are temporary; both will require reworking when Andy comes up with his revision of YASim to include the new supercharger code. Any testing would be welcome, although Melchior is doing his best to break it already! In particular any feedback on any adverse effects on other models would be good. Regards, Vivian Do we have the same project, on JSBSim ? What must be done for it ? I'm not sure where the supercharger stuff is at on JSBSim. Certainly doesn't have a Boost Control Cutout. I'm not working on it - I've only just begun to understand YASim. One thing at a time :-). I'm not aware of any requirement in JSBSim Right now I've only researched the RR Merlin in any detail. Enough for our current range of supercharged models. I don't know if Josh Babcock needs anything special for the B29. V. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d I had done some research on the R-3350s, but it was a while ago. I do know that the turbos are controled by an amplified rheostat, which I think controls the the waste gate. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New aircraft ideas ?
On June 24, 2005 11:39 am, Arnt Karlsen wrote: Got an idea for a new aircraft (not airplane) you'd like to try ? http://www.dodsbir.net/Topics/Default.asp Topic: A05-208 ..concerns semiballistic 40-105 mm munitions with enhanced lethality capable of striking targets of opportunity along the modifiable ballistic trajectory. ..I'd like to see such devices make full use of the 4 Geneva Conventions to save lives and instead maximize combat damage to the enemy, as wounded men are about 4 to 5 times more expensive to any military force than dead men. A successful small arms femur shot takes a year to heal back into combatworthy status. Agreed. If I have any new idea, I will certainly not submit it to any Department of Offense. Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Josh Babcock Right now I've only researched the RR Merlin in any detail. Enough for our current range of supercharged models. I don't know if Josh Babcock needs anything special for the B29. I had done some research on the R-3350s, but it was a while ago. I do know that the turbos are controled by an amplified rheostat, which I think controls the the waste gate. Josh Yes, that would be logical. Unless you have any turbo output pressure v height data, then I would expect that the standard wastegate will model this well enough. Was there any form of override which you would like to model? Are we going to get out hands on this model soon? I think there are quite a few people looking forward to it, I know I am. V. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Last Driver NVIDIA 7667:==approach lighting rabbit DO NOT Conflict with Graphic Card
On Friday 24 Jun 2005 18:23, Gerard Robin wrote: Le vendredi 24 juin 2005 à 18:53 +0200, Gerard Robin a écrit : Le mercredi 22 juin 2005 à 17:55 +0200, Gerard Robin a écrit : A better fix might be to use point lights for VASI/PAPI rather than commenting them out entirely. Here's my theory. VASI/PAPI and the get drawn with larger antialiased points. These are unaccelerated for the I suspect that they are intentionally making antialiased points artificially slow in their latest drivers to prevent people like us from getting away with using just a few here and there without upgrading to really high priced Quadro cards. I could be wrong ... maybe there's a valid technical reason, but this sounds more like a marketing thing than a driver bug from my perspective. Curt. Thank Curt that explanation , is the good one. Gerard I am Just Ending the test of the last NVIDIA driver 7667 june-22 The slowness in FG with VASI as vanished. That new driver seems right when working with existing OpenGL functionalities used by FG. I just notice a global speed a bit less than before (7664, without VASI). Good NEWS. I forgot to say, that message is only dedicated to FG users, Others 3D textured applications are less good with that new driver. I'll echo Curt - thanks for checking it out and passing the info onwards. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Vivian Meazza wrote: Josh Babcock Right now I've only researched the RR Merlin in any detail. Enough for our current range of supercharged models. I don't know if Josh Babcock needs anything special for the B29. I had done some research on the R-3350s, but it was a while ago. I do know that the turbos are controled by an amplified rheostat, which I think controls the the waste gate. Josh Yes, that would be logical. Unless you have any turbo output pressure v height data, then I would expect that the standard wastegate will model this well enough. Was there any form of override which you would like to model? Are we going to get out hands on this model soon? I think there are quite a few people looking forward to it, I know I am. V. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Weekly updates at http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/superfort I think Gerard was going to be commiting this, I'll have to check and see what's up. I'm not sure if that main control qualifies as an override. It's just a dial that goes from 0 to 10 with a small mechanical safety switch for going higher than 8. The pilot was supposed to st it to different numbers at different power conditions and phases of the mission. 9 and 10 were for emergencies. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Thanks, My question could be a question to Jon, Dave, and any JSB specialist. I just wonder, about, the opportunity to get profit of your work for developments on the JSB branch. The properties should be the same on the global FG level. Both FDM -YASim -JSBSim with a different philosophic approach should give the same end results. -- Gerard See the FGPiston.h file in JSBSim. See the constructor in FGPiston.cpp for exact specification in the new XML format (documentation pending). Here is some data on what can be specified: Models Dave Luff's Turbo/Supercharged Piston engine model. Additional elements are required for a supercharged engine. These can be left off a non-supercharged engine, ie. the changes are all backward compatible at present. - NUMBOOSTSPEEDS - zero (or not present) for a naturally-aspirated engine, either 1, 2 or 3 for a boosted engine. This corresponds to the number of supercharger speeds. Merlin XII had 1 speed, Merlin 61 had 2, a late Griffon engine apparently had 3. No known engine more than 3, although some German engines apparently had a continuously variable-speed supercharger. - BOOSTOVERRIDE - whether the boost pressure control system (either a boost control valve for superchargers or wastegate for turbochargers) can be overriden by the pilot. During wartime this was commonly possible, and known as War Emergency Power by the Brits. 1 or 0 in the config file. This isn't implemented in the model yet though, there would need to be some way of getting the boost control cutout lever position (on or off) from FlightGear first. - The next items are all appended with either 1, 2 or 3 depending on which boost speed they refer to, eg RATEDBOOST1. The rated values seems to have been a common convention at the time to express the maximum continuously available power, and the conditions to attain that power. - RATEDBOOST[123] - the absolute rated boost above sea level ambient for a given boost speed, in psi. Eg the Merlin XII had a rated boost of 9psi, giving approximately 42inHg manifold pressure up to the rated altitude. - RATEDALTITUDE[123] - The altitude up to which rated boost can be maintained. Up to this altitude the boost is maintained constant for a given throttle position by the BCV or wastegate. Beyond this altitude the manifold pressure must drop, since the supercharger is now at maximum unregulated output. The actual pressure multiplier of the supercharger system is calculated at initialisation from this value. - RATEDPOWER[123] - The power developed at rated boost at rated altitude at rated rpm. - RATEDRPM[123] - The rpm at which rated power is developed. - TAKEOFFBOOST - Takeoff boost in psi above ambient. Many aircraft had an extra boost setting beyond rated boost, but not totally uncontrolled as in the already mentioned boost-control-cutout, typically attained by pushing the throttle past a mechanical 'gate' preventing its inadvertant use. This was typically used for takeoff, and emergency situations, generally for not more than five minutes. This is a change in the boost control setting, not the actual supercharger speed, and so would only give extra power below the rated altitude. When TAKEOFFBOOST is specified in the config file (and is above RATEDBOOST1), then the throttle position is interpreted as: - 0 to 0.95 : idle manifold pressure to rated boost (where attainable) - 0.96, 0.97, 0.98 : rated boost (where attainable). - 0.99, 1.0 : takeoff boost (where attainable). A typical takeoff boost for an earlyish Merlin was about 12psi, compared with a rated boost of 9psi. It is quite possible that other boost control settings could have been used on some aircraft, or that takeoff/extra boost could have activated by other means than pushing the throttle full forward through a gate, but this will suffice for now. Note that MAXMP is still the non-boosted max manifold pressure even for boosted engines - effectively this is simply a measure of the pressure drop through the fully open throttle. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: New turbo/supercharger code
Le vendredi 24 juin 2005 à 18:13 -0500, Jon Berndt a écrit : Thanks, Both FDM -YASim -JSBSim with a different philosophic approach should give the same end results. -- Gerard See the FGPiston.h file in JSBSim. See the constructor in FGPiston.cpp for exact specification in the new XML format (documentation pending). Here is some data on what can be specified: Models Dave Luff's Turbo/Supercharged Piston engine model. Additional elements are required for a supercharged engine. These can be left off a non-supercharged engine, ie. the changes are all backward compatible at present. -.. power below the rated altitude. When TAKEOFFBOOST is specified in the config file (and is above RATEDBOOST1), then the throttle position is interpreted as: - 0 to 0.95 : idle manifold pressure to rated boost (where attainable) - 0.96, 0.97, 0.98 : rated boost (where attainable). - 0.99, 1.0 : takeoff boost (where attainable). A typical takeoff boost for an earlyish Merlin was about 12psi, compared with a rated boost of 9psi. It is quite possible that other boost control settings could have been used on some aircraft, or that takeoff/extra boost could have activated by other means than pushing the throttle full forward through a gate, but this will suffice for now. Note that MAXMP is still the non-boosted max manifold pressure even for boosted engines - effectively this is simply a measure of the pressure drop through the fully open throttle. Thank , that is exactly, what i was looking for (i did not understood how it could do with FG) I must go further into it, and see how to build the property relationship within the existing FG properties. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
