Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candiates
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:32:54 +0700, Harry wrote in message aanlktikopbzo1-h7qga8nano68gmb4mm07anm8eb3...@mail.gmail.com: Memories, heres an old article on we we were doing in the F28s and airfield surveys, whilst off topic, it may be of interest. http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Flying%20Unit%20navaid%20cal%20article%201990.htm Item 8 -- (8) good low speed handling and go-around performance from very low altitude; This i clearly remember like yesterday, sitting in the jump seat at the end of a VASI approach test, under full power doing 180 turnback to 1000 feet, cows beside the airstrip just below us, running in all directions with their tails wrapped up over their backs. It looked like we were going to put the wingtip up their backsides. We thought it was a hell of a joke, but the farmer I assume was not impressed. ..saw no farmer in my case, the 2 newspaper readers in the back appeared if anything, _annoyed_ at us 3 headset brats up front, they saw us aim about 50 feet short into a potato field with reverse power, we started our 180 about 50 meters out to the right, I'm not sure about the altitude, may have been 50 meters too, I could not see the 09 threshold of ENSK from seat 1B, the view was _all_ potato field until the aircrew pushed the power levers forward for the round-out and slick-on, I only felt the nose wheel touch and spool up, dry asphalt for all 3 wheels. ..all this for a wee somewhat snotty comment on slobby ass full- scaler's wasteful use of airspace around airfields on climb-out from ENAN 29 years ago, TwinOtters are _real_ fun aircraft. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE: Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen. Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle. Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Check Six, Jack -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
Well a picture isn't what i asked for , I asked for some facts to back up that 'unrealistic' statement... And Ive seen stranger things around KSFO ;) But I'm not looking for an argument , I'm looking for some suggestions on how to improve it from real world airliner pilots. Cheers On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Jack Mermod jackmer...@gmail.com wrote: I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Check Six, Jack -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Jack Mermod wrote: I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Tex Johnson did it with a 707 that had a hell of a lot less power. Now granted, he didn't try it under the Golden Gate Bridge, but that was probably because it wasn't available at the time. A friend of mine is a KC-135 driver. He tells me that the unloaded performance of that thing is INSANE. The 777 has a LOT more power than a KC-135, so I can easily believe that its unloaded performance is pretty spritely. Now if you're type rated in the 777, you're welcome to tell me to stuff it. :) *crickets* Thaaat's what I thought. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
Reminded me of this video ... it IS a 757 , but still the performance is amazing ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vJliayH6co On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Gene Buckle ge...@deltasoft.com wrote: On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Jack Mermod wrote: I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Tex Johnson did it with a 707 that had a hell of a lot less power. Now granted, he didn't try it under the Golden Gate Bridge, but that was probably because it wasn't available at the time. A friend of mine is a KC-135 driver. He tells me that the unloaded performance of that thing is INSANE. The 777 has a LOT more power than a KC-135, so I can easily believe that its unloaded performance is pretty spritely. Now if you're type rated in the 777, you're welcome to tell me to stuff it. :) *crickets* Thaaat's what I thought. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Jack Mermod jackmer...@gmail.com wrote: Are you telling me this is realistic too? No, it is notso stop flying like that... :-P Really, what is with this recent trend of bashing quite rudely on the 777? And the usual evidence is stuff like that...flying the aircraft completely unrealistically and outside of any normal and tested flight envelope and complaining vaguely that the FDM somehow is unrealistic because of that. The 777 FDM may not be perfect (what sim aircraft is?), but I think you'll find if you fly the aircraft in a manner approaching something normal and realistic it is not nearly so bad as some people keep trying to make it out to be. syd adams wrote: Reminded me of this video ... it IS a 757 , but still the performance is amazing ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vJliayH6co Now that is what I call a go around... :-) cheers! --Jacob -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
On Monday 21 February 2011 17:41:10 Jack Mermod wrote: I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Check Six, Jack Generally a picture is worth a thousand words, but here, not so much. What is it, exactly, you are troubled by? Coefficient of Lift (Cl) is the Lift force divided by dynamic pressure and wing area.[1] For the 777-200 FDM lets say we require 602,320 lbf of lift (this is near max weight, btw) and we'll assume we're flying about 300 knots. So: Cl = ((−602320lbf)/((0.5*(300knot)^2*0.00278slug/ft3)*427.8m2)) ~= -0.367 Negative, because we're inverted... Thin airfoil theory suggests the Cl curve is about alpha*2pi + alpha0 where alpha is the angle of attack in radians and alpha0 is the Cl at alpha=0. [2] So: alpha = (Cl - alpha0)/2pi If we assume alpha0 is around 0.333 (probably an over estimation) we get alpha = -0.7/2pi = -0.114 radians or -6.4 degrees. An alpha of -6.4 probably wouldn't stall the airfoil. Also, transport class aircraft must be rated to at least -1 g [3] So, inverted level flight in the 777-200 doesn't sound impossible. Near the ground and under a bridge... Foolhardy, perhaps, but not physically impossible. Oh, and ground effect will lower the required angle of attack required below about 200 feet also. 200 feet being the wingspan of this aircraft. Thanks, Ron [1] http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0078.shtml [2] http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0136.shtml [3] http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfrsid=a1b09ee39e3a8d0190f1bcf462436936rgn=div5view=textnode=14:1.0.1.3.11idno=14#14:1.0.1.3.11.3.164.9 -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
Syd places an enormous amount of effort and care into his models. If it were me, I'd think twice before questioning something he did, and I'd be darned sure I did my homework first, because it's certain he will have. But if he says he's interested in suggestions for improvements, he means it, and without ego. I have a friend who worked as a mechanical safety inspector at the Miami airport cargo facility back in the mid-90's, and he used to tell me of how unladen aircraft would sometimes depart at seemingly unbelievable steep angles. It was from his descriptions that I first started to understand the power of those engines that sit hidden in the throats of airliner intakes. -Gary aka Buckaroo On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Jack Mermod jackmer...@gmail.com wrote: I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Check Six, Jack -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
