Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
tong hui wrote:

 I have compiled it successfully !

That's great.  If I were you, I'd ping Stuart Buchanan to set our
source repo up in a way so you can maintain the Chinese translation
alongside with the English source (and other translations).

At the beginning it'll probably going to require a little bit of
testing and fixing, but if things are working once, they require little
maintenance afterwards.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
Pedro Morgan wrote:

 Umm.. here ?
 http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/getstart/index.html

As written on the Wiki main page, The Manual is hosted here:

  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart.pdf
  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/

(This place wasn't my preferred choice, but it was the only option
within the flightgear.org domain.)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
Pedro Morgan wrote:

 Not a bash user, so this stuff is ,kinda new but a new builld script
 here (more options) and work in progress
 https://gitorious.org/~ffs/fg/ffs-getstart/blobs/b132c71c290bae8d48b9c3eaa99edb2e6e1d999b/bin/make_getstart.sh

Thanks, I'll check.

As a side note: I've started re-writing various Shell-scripts (mostly
the gisscripts-stuff in TerraGear) in Python, as an excercise as well
as to make things more platform-independent.  Thus if *I* were spending
the time to re-write the build-script for The Manual (I won't,
because there's so much other stuff to do  ;-) , I'd do it in Python.

 Quick question:
 Tex etc is new toerritory, but one curious question.. Where is the css
 generated.. cant figure it out !!!

LaTeX does it for you.  Watch the output of htlatex and you'll find
out.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
tong hui wrote:

 Why not re-write this manual in markdown?

Substitute markdown by everbody's personal favourites and you're
getting an idea of past discussions  ;-)

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Stand-alone ATC client and Canvas

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
Fernando García Liñán wrote:

 So as said in the FlightGear's wiki article about the subject, [...]

Do you have an URL available ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Stand-alone ATC client and Canvas

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
Fernando García Liñán wrote:

 Sure: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Stand_Alone_ATC_Control_Development

Thanks - I took the freedom to remove the stupid comment  ;-)

Thanks,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Stand-alone ATC client and Canvas

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
Fernando García wrote:

 But I guess it is not that useless.

Well, but the wording You are advised not to start working on anything
directly related to this is highly inappropriate.  Apparently someone
has completely failed to understand the topic.

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[Flightgear-devel] FG Steering Committee :-) Was: Stand-alone ATC client and Canvas

2012-10-08 Thread Martin Spott
On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 09:33:36PM +, Martin Spott wrote:

 Well, but the wording You are advised not to start working on anything
 directly related to this is highly inappropriate.  Apparently someone
 has completely failed to understand the topic.

It came to my attention he's a Wiki moderator and it looks like he
enjoys abusing his powers to enforce advice against development ideas
which don't conform to his personal favourites.

This is sad, very sad,

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-07 Thread Martin Spott
tonghuix wrote:

 $ bin/makegetstart.sh en pdf
 Building English manual.
 rm: cannot remove directory: `.'
 bin/makegetstart.sh: 37: bin/makegetstart.sh: lndir: not found

lndir is a traditional utility to build X.  Stock Debian has an
xutils-dev package which contains lndir.

 identify: unable to open image `*.eps':  @ error/blob.c/OpenBlob/2587.
 bin/makegetstart.sh: 55: [: -lt: unexpected operator

The error in the second line is most likely caused by some malfunction
which is expressed in the first one.  Please try running the script in
bash -x and paste the output somewhere.


The build script for The Manual is very ugly.  I wrote most of it
approx. ten years ago for the sole purpose of serving as an aid to
reproduce what Michael Basler did on Windows.  Whoever has a better
one, please shout.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-07 Thread Martin Spott
Pedro Morgan wrote:

 Is martin the maintainer of this? I want to make this build automatic

It's already running automatically, the PDF versions as well as the
English HTML are being updated whenever a GIT commit gets mirrored to
the FlightGear MapServer machine - which, as far as I remember, is
being synced every six hours.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] How to compile getstart latex source file?

2012-10-07 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:
 tonghuix wrote:

 identify: unable to open image `*.eps':  @ error/blob.c/OpenBlob/2587.
 bin/makegetstart.sh: 55: [: -lt: unexpected operator
 
 The error in the second line is most likely caused by some malfunction
 which is expressed in the first one.

  which, of course, doesn't come by surprise, as long as lndir is
missing  :-)
After reading Pete's comment I'd like to point out that there's very
little setup-specific in the build scripts.  Of course you need to have
LaTeX installed with htlatex and/or pdflatex helpers, Ghostscript,
ImageMagick, as well as some other pretty common Unix tools. The only
local requirement is to have /usr/local/src/ writeable - which I assume
is common as well, especially when you're in building OpenSource
software.

Aside from that, the scripts are sooo simple, they're README's in
themselves - especially for people capable of writing LaTeX  ;-)

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata trouble

2012-09-23 Thread Martin Spott
Alan Teeder wrote:

 Twice I left it running overnight, but it failed both times after several 
 hours during the fgdata clone.

Which server do you clone from ?  If you don't already do so, then you
should consider fetching the initial clone from mapserver and to change
the remote origin afterwards.

 The fact remains that I believe that the current fgdata is too large and is 
 not fit for purpose. The need to re-organise it exists now, as it did last 
 year. Perhaps you, or someone else,  could comment on that.

Indeed, the current evil is asking for a *clever* solution but every of
those I've seen so far (at least most of them) had been ignoring one or
another quite relevant context and I think we're not well-advised to
embark on yet another significant evil to get rid of the current one.

I don't know the 'perfect' recipe either. My favourite would be to keep
just the default Cessna in the base package and to move all the other
aircraft into one single, separate repo   but as far as I remember,
this plan doesn't have much support (for various reasons, I guess).

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata trouble

2012-09-23 Thread Martin Spott
Bertrand Coconnier wrote:

 git repack
 git gc
 git prune

Same here, I'm running a similar set as hooks on the mapserver GIT
mirror,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata trouble

2012-09-23 Thread Martin Spott
Stefan Seifert wrote:

 Since really only the initial clone is a problem, we could just offer a 
 weekly 
 updated tar ball of a bare clone for download. This download would just be ~ 
 5 
 GiB and would be resumable.
[...]
 Any thoughts?

Good idea.  We actually had this for a while, but I don't know wether
it's still available,

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata trouble

2012-09-23 Thread Martin Spott
Alan Teeder wrote:

 Brisa script has this line
git clone git://gitorious.org/fg/fgdata.git fgdata
 
 This is also the default to which all new users are most likely to come 
 across..

fun
Q) We need to use smaller bolts for the railway bridge !  Every time I
   try to mount a bolt with my hammer, I'm getting stuck in the
   middle.
A) Would you consider using one of the big sledgehammers for these
   bolts ?
Q) I picked up one of the toolbooxes they have as a gift at the local
   homebuilders store and it contains just this single 250 g hammer. 
   I think it's the default to assemble bridges with hammers of this
   size.
/fun

I agree, the Base Package is really big, but, as Vivian already pointed
out, the problem is way too complicated for solutions you can buy in a
box.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata trouble

2012-09-23 Thread Martin Spott
Alan Teeder wrote:

 Sorting out the aircraft is then a completely separate problem, and several 
 solutions to this have already been proposed. As we all remember one was 
 actually implemented last year, but for various reasons not made fully 
 public , was promptly abandoned.

You might try searching the list archives for a posting by Durk in the
first half of November last year.


I've carefully avoided to declare my favourite as a suggestion or
even a recommendation because I know it has several drawbacks  ;-)

Keeping just the C172 in the Base Package has downsides, keeping the
release-hangar has downsides, installing various hangars by aircraft-
type or level of fidelity has downsides, installing one repo per
aircraft has downsides as well   I'm pretty much convinced that the
most beneficial and most appropriate solution has not yet been posted
to this list.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata trouble

2012-09-22 Thread Martin Spott
Alan Teeder wrote:

 New flightgear git users are faced with an initial download of about 10gb 
 just to get started.

Currently the fgdata GIT repo has approx. 4.9 GByte,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Nav-cache

2012-09-19 Thread Martin Spott
Hi James, nice feature - I like storing this sort of stuff in
structured databases  :-)

There's one item looking a little bit strange to me: Apparently the
positioned table has a numeric identifier airport to refer runways
and taxiways to their respective airport. This seems to be a simple
sequence - but the records containing the airport name and ident
(type = 1) are always having airport = 0.

The entire schema is probably going to work as expected as long as the
ordering in the positioned table remains unchanged (this looks to me
being mostly a verbatim adaption of the apt.dat plus a few custom
additions), but I don't understand how you manage to group runways and
taxiways together with their airport if the ordering gets confused.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Nav-cache

2012-09-19 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:
 On 19 Sep 2012, at 17:47, Martin Spott wrote:

 There's one item looking a little bit strange to me: Apparently the
 positioned table has a numeric identifier airport to refer runways
 and taxiways to their respective airport. This seems to be a simple
 sequence - but the records containing the airport name and ident
 (type = 1) are always having airport = 0.
 
 Not just runways or taxiways - also marker beacons, ILSs, towers,
 comm frequencies and anything else that might be located at the
 airport.

Yes, I've seen matches of the octree_node's with data from navaids for
example, but as far as I remember there's no logical link, just a
geographical.  Right ?

 It's the sqlite rowID of the airport record - both in the positioned
 table, but also the 'airports' table.

Ah, indeed, the rowid - that's neat. The rowid wasn't that obvious from
the SQL dump I was staring at (I simply didn't care counting the rows
myself  ;-)

Thanks,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Error while compiling 2.6.0 on FreeBSD,

2012-09-11 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:
 Nikolay Tychina wrote:
 
 I'm trying to build a port of FlightGear 2.6.0 on FreeBSD, [...]
 
 Which version of FreeBSD ? Do you have BATCH enabled in make.conf ? Are
 you sure your port dependencies are up to date ? Do you have any other
 custom rules defined in make.conf ?

I've just upgraded to 2.8 via the port on 9.0-RELEASE/AMD64 and things
look as expected.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear branch,

2012-09-07 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:
 On 6 Sep 2012, at 09:54, Martin Spott wrote:

 _But_ the same model is already available in the Scenery path:
 
 jive: 10:40:08 ~ ls -l 
 /export/share/FGScenery/Test/Models/Misc/entrepotblanc-ba.xml
 -rw-r--r-- 1 martin user 946  6. Okt 2011  
 /export/share/FGScenery/Test/Models/Misc/entrepotblanc-ba.xml
 
 
 To me this looks like FlightGear is searching the wrong path.  For now
 I can't tell if it's faulty by design - I vaguely remember some
 confusion several months ago about how FG would be supposed to search
 3D models - or if it's caused by a recent change.
 
 Yep that's a bug. I know 'how' to fix both this issue, and the
 --fg-aicraft one, but I need Mathias to help me understand why he
 couldn't use the SGModelLib::findDataFile method in his code.

I'd like to remind that the *planned* behaviour was still to use
Objects and Models from the first item in the Scenery path where a
Terrain tile is found.  If no Objects and/or Models are available in
this path item, FlightGear should fall back to the Base Package for
Models and/or Objects.

I know there are voices advertizing a different behaviour, anyhow I
think the value of a consistent and *predictable* schema outweighs
personal preferences of some individuals.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear branch,

2012-09-06 Thread Martin Spott
ThorstenB wrote:

 I checked commit comments, but couldn't find anything related. Checked a 
 bit closer now: my best _guess_ is, it's related to the following 
 simgear change:
 
 commit f1201eaebc3fbb8964e06b7ef158fd34a12901aa
 Author: Mathias Froehlich
 Date:   Sat Aug 25 08:43:12 2012 +0200

 scene: Reorganize stg loading.

While you're at it, I'd like to mention that there's still another
place in need of more consistency, as FlightGear should be able to load
Scenery 3D models from the respective Scenery directory, but apparently
that's not always the case.
I've set:

jive: 10:39:16 ~ echo $FG_SCENERY
/export/share/FGScenery/Test


Now when I start FlightGear, I'm getting warnings of this sort:

/home/martin/SCM/FlightGear/fgdata/Models/Misc/entrepotblanc-ba.xml: Use of 
global in material animation is no longer supported.


_But_ the same model is already available in the Scenery path:

jive: 10:40:08 ~ ls -l 
/export/share/FGScenery/Test/Models/Misc/entrepotblanc-ba.xml
-rw-r--r-- 1 martin user 946  6. Okt 2011  
/export/share/FGScenery/Test/Models/Misc/entrepotblanc-ba.xml


To me this looks like FlightGear is searching the wrong path.  For now
I can't tell if it's faulty by design - I vaguely remember some
confusion several months ago about how FG would be supposed to search
3D models - or if it's caused by a recent change.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] license

2012-09-05 Thread Martin Spott
Scott wrote:

  So my question then is, what path is there to incorporate CC content
 in scenery that must be GPL???

Under the this is no legal advice-clause I'd say it should allow
derived works to be published under the GPL.

BTW, I'm uncertain if we're having the same SRTM-1 in mind. The last
time I looked at the a public source of SRTM-1, it's been very noisy. 
Aside from that you're probably not gaining much by using SRTM-1,
because upon Terrain generation most of the elevation points remain
unused anyway - even with SRTM-3.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] license

2012-09-05 Thread Martin Spott
Scott wrote:

 But more seriously, I'm no license guru, and you picked one of the main
 points I'm not clear on, the original CC in this example is
 Share-alike and Derived works allowed with attribution.

It really depends on the particular phrasing in license text.
One of the - various - reasons for not providing 'official' FlightGear
Scenery with OSM roads is the clause in CC-BY-SA 2.0, which says:

  If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute
  the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this
  one.


  whereas the GPL is widely considered as not being sufficiently
similar, despite the fact that the *intention* isn't that much
different.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] license

2012-09-05 Thread Martin Spott
Renk Thorsten wrote:

 FlightProSim does not defraud its customers as far as I am aware.

According to reports on this very list (hint) and elsewhere they don't
comply with the money-back guarantee they advertize.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] license

2012-09-05 Thread Martin Spott
Ron Jensen wrote:
 On Wednesday 05 September 2012 05:04:06 Martin Spott wrote:

 It really depends on the particular phrasing in license text.
 One of the - various - reasons for not providing 'official' FlightGear
 Scenery with OSM roads is the clause in CC-BY-SA 2.0, which says:

   If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute
   the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this
   one.


   whereas the GPL is widely considered as not being sufficiently
 similar, despite the fact that the *intention* isn't that much
 different.

 IANAL. The issues are non-commercial and attribution. The attribution clause 
 is effectively the BSD advertising clause, which is a horrible idea on 
 multiple levels. 
 http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html

This GNU article is biased like hell and they're completely suppressing
the well-founded reason for the clause they're agitating against. 
Therefore it doesn't help much to develop a balanced representation of
the topic you/we are talking about.

 And has been pointed out, selling of flightgear does have a legitimate place.

Aside from the above, CC BY-SA 2.0 (as well as BSD, of course) allow
commercial use.  They just require you to put the proper license tag
onto the box (as does the GPL).  The issue wrt. 'mixing' CC BY-SA 2.0
and GPL, for example, is the particular phrasing in the different
licenses, which is incompatible.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Error while compiling 2.6.0 on FreeBSD,

2012-09-04 Thread Martin Spott
Nikolay Tychina wrote:

 I'm trying to build a port of FlightGear 2.6.0 on FreeBSD, and it
 fails with the same error every time. What can possibly cause it?

Has the problem already been solved ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Error while compiling 2.6.0 on FreeBSD,

2012-09-04 Thread Martin Spott
Nikolay Tychina wrote:

 FreeBSD was relatively recent 9-STABLE, yesterday I upgraded it to
 9.1-PRERELEASE #0 r240025.

Which port of FLTK is installed, 1.3 or 2 ?
I've recently built the flightgear port successfully on 9.something,
therefore I'd rather expect some remains of an old FLTK or Ruby port to
be the culprit than a systematic collision on FreeBSD.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Error while compiling 2.6.0 on FreeBSD,

2012-09-02 Thread Martin Spott
Nikolay Tychina wrote:

 I'm trying to build a port of FlightGear 2.6.0 on FreeBSD, [...]

Which version of FreeBSD ? Do you have BATCH enabled in make.conf ? Are
you sure your port dependencies are up to date ? Do you have any other
custom rules defined in make.conf ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some More Detailed Scenery

2012-08-31 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Yves,

HB-GRAL wrote:

 May I ask you to move this discussion to the scenery list now ?

I'm not among those who enjoy having multiple different places for
discussing the same topic (clarification upon request), therefore I'd
prefer to stick with the -devel list.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FW: Compute ground elevation dynamically for

2012-08-30 Thread Martin Spott
Renk Thorsten wrote:

 So, people would like to populate close to the 'real' layout, but
 still do something useful for the scenery database I guess, [...]

You're probably wrong about the second half of your assumption,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some More Detailed Scenery

2012-08-30 Thread Martin Spott
Tom P wrote:

 Instead of creating a new server for high-end / more detailed sceneries,
 would it be possible to create a branch on the current TerraSync server?

I think that's possible, maybe even just two different directories with
a 'base' Terrain (let's say pure VMap0) and another with the best
detail we have.  Please remind me of this idea once we're having all
ducks in a row to build detailed Terrain   anyhow, there probably
won't be many users left for the base Terrain by then, and for these
we're still having the 1.0.1 Scenery readily available.

 It could work as an overlay where a more detailed scenery tile takes the
 place of a base / standard detail tile.

That's most likely not going to work because the tile boundaries won't
match between base and high-level tiles.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] SimGear libraries

2012-08-28 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:

 Mathias has suggested, and I agree, it would be sensible to also
 package the *static* libraries this way.  So instead of having many
 static libraries, we will have only two: libSimGearCore.a and
 libSimGearScene.a

Sounds good,

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[Flightgear-devel] TerraGear GIT repository name change

2012-08-28 Thread Martin Spott
To whom it may concern, the former terragear-cs repositories on
Gitorious as well as on the FlightGear MapServer have been renamed to
just terragear without the -cs.

Please update your .git/config files accordingly.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata merge request 91:Animated Jetways

2012-08-27 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Ryan,

A Person wrote:

 I can assure you that I do care. Over the past several months, life
 has been really occupying me and I have not had much time to check
 email or keep up with the FlightGear mailing list. Sorry for missing
 your messages; the only reason I was able to catch this one was
 because a friend on IRC informed me of it.

I really wonder how you manage to afford time for IRC when your budget
is too tight to check EMail  :-)

Anyhow, the reason why I had been writing EMail several times is the
removal of the /sim/paths/use-custom-scenery-data clause.  This
property has been removed, the state which had been activated by the
flag is now permanent - see:

  
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/gitweb.pl?p=flightgear;a=commit;h=8d3e1b06be9ad55b17b90a9ee4c38b97cb362913

and:

  
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/gitweb.pl?p=fgdata;a=commit;h=85c4550cc9e10bd3a0169906155be6d5199b45ee


For the other stuff I'll try to guide the person reporting the issues
to this thread.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FW: Compute ground elevation dynamically for

2012-08-27 Thread Martin Spott
Torsten Dreyer wrote:

 I can think of one scenario where the information offset from ground 
 aka AGL is necessary. This is when the scenery gets recreated and the 
 ground elevation changes. In that case, objects may float above or sink 
 into the ground with a fixed altitude. IMHO, our scenery database needs 
 to know about that offset to create the correct altitude for an object 
 in the scenery.

The Scenemodels database stores these offsets where needed and we're
prepared to automatically adjust object elevations to the current
Terrain whenever required.  In fact we're actually doing this every
once in a while   so, if the model and/or object you submitted
several weeks or months ago looks really funny now (or in the near
future), you might have forgotten to tell us about the offset  :-)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] fgdata merge request 91:Animated Jetways

2012-08-23 Thread Martin Spott
Hi, if anybody meets Ryan Miller, please let him know that there appear
to be issues with the current state of the Jetways.
I've tried to get in contact with him several times over the past
months, but never got a response - I have no idea wether his EMail
address changed or if he just doesn't care.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 2.8. osx download broken

2012-08-20 Thread Martin Spott
HB-GRAL wrote:

 to use a mirror, but then I got some 15k drops from the german mirror

Anybody else facing trouble accessing the German FTP mirror ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New land cover Shapefile download feature

2012-08-20 Thread Martin Spott
Clement de l'Hamaide wrote:

 Now only coastline.shp are provided in the .zip file and we are
 forced to download every layer (osm_river, osm_rail, osm_trunk,
 osm_primary...) individually and manually.

Of course I did a few tests before announcing the change, therefore I'm
slightly surprised   but you're right, apparently I performed the
tests too early, before the change was complete.

I think it's fixed now.

Thanks for reporting,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 3D models import webform in production.

2012-08-19 Thread Martin Spott
Frederic Bouvier wrote:

 You cover a wide range of needs if you allow any number of files in this 
 set of formats

The difficulty is not in processing a wider range of 3D model formats,
instead the most trouble is hidden in the consistency checking.

Traditionally, submitters are making more mistakes than you could
envision in your wildest dreams and a proper web form has to check all
of this.  Listing a couple of 'interesting' formats is easy, but to
make them work you also have to develop proper consistency tests.

Remember the standard disclaimer: All the code is on Gitorious.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New land cover Shapefile download feature

2012-08-16 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

 I've added a new - long overdue - download feature to the known
 Shapefile download page at:
 
  

  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/shpdl/

 On the left you'll still find the old per-layer download, on the right
 there's a new, still in testing every polygon from Custom Scenery
 within a bounding box download.

As a heads-up for those who are downloading Shapefiles programatically,
I'd like to point out that the URLs have changed.  Now there's just one
download URL:

  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/dlshp?...

instead of /dlcs?..., /dlclc00?..., /dlclc06?... for each type and
the type has moved into the layer parameter:

  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/dlshp?layer=clc06;...

Have fun,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear Usability

2012-08-13 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:
 On 12 Aug 2012, at 20:44, Martin Spott wrote:
 
 But it's not an either/or. There could be an FGCom binary that uses the 
 same 
 code as the built-in FGCom.
 
 Which environment would be set up to build this separate binary ?
 
 The fgfs one, but I don't think that's a particularly onerous
 requirement to build fgcom.

No ?  FGCom is a perfect match for BeagleBoard-style computers and I
know this actually had been one of the development goals, so you could
have your radio comms in a neat interface box, no matter which hardware
is running FlightGear.

As a preparatory step, if you're really planning to shift FGCom into
FG, then it's probably worth considering the 'cost' of porting
FlightGear, at least those parts of the build system which would be
required to build FGCom, to a stripped-down Linux on ARM  ;-)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear Usability

2012-08-12 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:

 Usability was the main reason for making terrasync be available as
 in-process option, and I'm strongly considering doing the same thing
 for fgcom, although that has a few extra complications.

Whereas there's little use of TerraSync without the FG flight sim,
there are plausible usage scenarios for FGCom _without_ FlightGear,
let's say for ATC.  Therefore, while it makes sense to package FGCom
alongside with FlightGear for the releases, I'm having mixed feelings
about incorporating FGCom into FlightGear core because this would
either:
a) require to bear all the ballast of FG even if the only thing you'd
   like to have is FGCom, if FGCom development moves into FG or
b) carry the risk of FGCom-in-FG diverge from standalone FGCom.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear Usability

2012-08-12 Thread Martin Spott
Stefan Seifert wrote:
 On Sunday 12 August 2012 16:07:18 Martin Spott wrote:
 
 Whereas there's little use of TerraSync without the FG flight sim,
 there are plausible usage scenarios for FGCom _without_ FlightGear,
 let's say for ATC.  Therefore, while it makes sense to package FGCom
 alongside with FlightGear for the releases, I'm having mixed feelings
 about incorporating FGCom into FlightGear core because this would
 either:
 a) require to bear all the ballast of FG even if the only thing you'd
like to have is FGCom, if FGCom development moves into FG or
 b) carry the risk of FGCom-in-FG diverge from standalone FGCom.
 
 But it's not an either/or. There could be an FGCom binary that uses the same 
 code as the built-in FGCom.

Which environment would be set up to build this separate binary ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear Usability

2012-08-11 Thread Martin Spott
Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 3) Scenery.  Terrasync is now built into FG, and we have nice UI to
 configure it in-sim.  However, it still requires users to set up a
 separate directory and configure FG_SCENERY before it can be used.  It
 would be great if the standard installers created an
 $FG_ROOT/WorldScenery directory with the appropriate permissions, and
 added it to $FG_SCENERY by default.

As far as I can tell, the value of /sim/terrasync/scenery-dir was
already supposed to be added to the Scenery path, but I don't know at
which priority.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] 3D models import webform in production.

2012-08-09 Thread Martin Spott
Frederic Bouvier wrote:

 My model is made of 3 xml, 3 .ac and 2 textures . How can I submit it ? 

Sounds like it should be submitted as three distinct models.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery

2012-08-06 Thread Martin Spott
ys wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Am 05.08.2012 um 19:07 schrieb Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net:
 
 Hi YVes,
 
 ys wrote:
 
 A lot of scenery will come with 850 airport data either, and this is
 still refused by the core developers [...]
 
 Personally I don't like this sort of claims.
 
 After reading the above statement, the 'innocent' observer might
 understand that swapping the current apt.dat file out of the Base
 Package in favour of a v8.50 (or even more recent) file would be little
 more than just a formal act.  But that's plain wrong and does nothing
 but raising false hopes.
 
 Hi Martin
 
 I'm one of this innocent observers myself. Flightgear can read 8.50 data, 
 scenery tools are under heavy development to get it too. 8.10 data is 
 deprecated by official xplane maintainers ... The only thing I miss since 
 many months is a RFC how developers should work and how custom scenery with 
 8.50 (which is compatible to newer formats, 8.10 isn't) could come to 
 official flightgear scenery. I don't want to 'claim' anything, I don't want 
 to raise false hopes, it's just in responsability of the core developers to 
 show how 2nd-row developers can help to improve apt.dat without being 
 blocked by a deprecated. I read 200 posts here about the bigger picture, 
 but none about how the work can be done step by step.
 
 -Yves
 
 Instead you'd be breaking numerous dependencies by swapping apt.dat
 files, therefore your claim has a connotation which I consider as being
 inappropriate and misleading.
 
 In the past months (years) I've observed the topic of how to organize
 airport data being covered with more different proposals than
 available proponents, so far almost none of them having a reasonable
 chance to survive in practical life, at least not for a coherent
 Scenery.
 
 I'd appreciate someone taking care of the topic in a manner which takes
 the bigger picure into account.  I know you've started to do so, but,
 as you already experienced, things tend to proceed a _lot_ slower than
 you'd expect because there sooo much tedious detail-work to do.
 
 Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery

2012-08-06 Thread Martin Spott
Sorry for the no-op posting, I acidentally sent the unmodified
buffer 


Moin Yves,

ys wrote:

 [...], it's just in responsability of the core developers to show how
 2nd-row developers can help to improve apt.dat without being
 blocked by a deprecated.

I tend to disagree.

You're probably asking for a recipe on how to square a circle  ;-)
According to my experience there's little chance to establish a
procedure having the potential to stand real practise without a couple
of wise guys making terrible noise, claiming they're blocked.

Therefore I think trying to guide 2nd-row developers is a waste of
time in most cases.  If you look back in the archives of The Forum then
you'll find a lot of postings written by myself, followed in sequence
by someone opposing loudly, advocating stuff I've already tried myself
and which failed miserably.  Someone even blamed me for lying after
reporting my tests results.  Isn't this bizarre ?

How many people do you think are on The Forum, having a credible
interest in building consistent, coherent Scenery for FlightGear ?
I don't know how many they are, but my expectations are pretty low. 
Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you for this, I just want to point
out why I think that blaming core developers for not guiding the
2nd-row developers isn't the proper approach.

From my perspective the only chance for establishing v8.50 lies in
supporting the development of the respective dependencies.  Recent
improvements in TerraGear look very promising but I doubt that swapping
the *global* apt.dat files is wise util there's a proof that building
*global* Scenery is possible - including really dense regions and areas
beyond 80 degree north and south.

sarcasmFortunately there will be wide acceptance for Scenery based on
v8.50 airports because a lot of people will simply 'buy' it, no matter
how ugly it is, as long as it carries the v8.50 tag  ;-)  /sarcasm

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery

2012-08-06 Thread Martin Spott
Tim Moore wrote:
 On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net wrote:

 Therefore I think trying to guide 2nd-row developers is a waste of
 time in most cases.
 
 How does scenery production, including airport modeling, scale without
 2nd (and 3rd and 4th)-row developers?

Badly.  The point is that there are only very few who like to be
guided, Yves is one of the rare exceptions - and from my understanding
he doesn't need much guidance because he already has identified pretty
well what needs to be done  ;-)

I don't think that 'guidance' works in this context.  These are all
(mostly !?) grown-up people and after they've decided to grow their
private Scenery ecosystem, you hardly convince them otherwise.  You can
try offering an appealing toolchain   but, as everybody knows, Rome
wasn't built in a day either and many of the addressees simply don't
(want to) understand how sensitive as well as laborious the topic is.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery

2012-08-05 Thread Martin Spott
Hi YVes,

ys wrote:

 A lot of scenery will come with 850 airport data either, and this is
 still refused by the core developers [...]

Personally I don't like this sort of claims.

After reading the above statement, the 'innocent' observer might
understand that swapping the current apt.dat file out of the Base
Package in favour of a v8.50 (or even more recent) file would be little
more than just a formal act.  But that's plain wrong and does nothing
but raising false hopes.
Instead you'd be breaking numerous dependencies by swapping apt.dat
files, therefore your claim has a connotation which I consider as being
inappropriate and misleading.

In the past months (years) I've observed the topic of how to organize
airport data being covered with more different proposals than
available proponents, so far almost none of them having a reasonable
chance to survive in practical life, at least not for a coherent
Scenery.

I'd appreciate someone taking care of the topic in a manner which takes
the bigger picure into account.  I know you've started to do so, but,
as you already experienced, things tend to proceed a _lot_ slower than
you'd expect because there sooo much tedious detail-work to do.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] TerraGear / Custom Scenery branch, gdalchop,

2012-08-01 Thread Martin Spott
Flightgear-commitlogs wrote:
 The branch, gdalchop has been created
at  40695c40585943b13e3c1005648e1da4dc490542 (commit)
 
 - Log -
 commit 40695c40585943b13e3c1005648e1da4dc490542
 Author: Ralf Gerlich
 Date:   Tue Dec 29 19:04:46 2009 +0100

Sorry for the old changelogs.  Apparently the history in the 'official'
terragear-cs repo on Gitorious was bent forcibly and therefore some
of the references didn't apply properly to the mirror on MapServer - at
least GIT automatically detects these 'excercises'  :-)

I looks like branch removals got lost as well, I'll try to fix these
later.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Planned downtime of ftp.de

2012-08-01 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

 ftp.de is currently offline due to hardware failure, it's been a Sun
 Ultra10 which has been running for more than a decade now.

After the mirror had already been running in degraded mode (without
Scenery) for a while, it should now be fully functional again,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Planned downtime of ftp.de

2012-08-01 Thread Martin Spott
Curtis Olson wrote:

 Sounds good, thanks for the update!  What did they end up upgrading
 to?

Now it's a pretty boring PeeCee having two internal disks.  I've been
maintaining this university FTP service since the mid-nineties, so it's
my 'baby'.  Nowadays it hardly serves anything else besides two famous
FTP mirrors  ;-)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Switching from PUI to osgWidget

2012-07-25 Thread Martin Spott
HB-GRAL wrote:

 New GUI with separated menus/dialogs, viewer in a separate window:
 http://maptest.fgx.ch/screens/one-screen.png

Someone please buy me a display *that* wide so I can still afford using
space lateral to the viewer for the menu  ;-)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Switching from PUI to osgWidget

2012-07-25 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:

 Or to put it another way - the actual hard part is running the
 widgets in the main OpenGL window - which *is* a requirement for
 full-screen apps and multi-monitor setups.  (Some people have claimed
 otherwise, but I believe we need the option of 'in-window' UI for
 many cases).

I object - at last I can't envision a case where running the UI inside
a separate window in front of a (full-screen) viewer is inferior to an
in-window UI.  All supported window systems provide the required
information on screen/window-geometry or -placement to position a
separate UI-window wherever you like.

For the die-hards just think of a menu bar positioned in front of the
upper left corner of the viewer-screen or -window having just very thin
borders.  From my perspective that's a pretty appealing approach
because running the UI outside the viewer and probably/hopefully
outside the main program could lead to a consistent management-/
control-interface in FlightGear.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Switching from PUI to osgWidget

2012-07-25 Thread Martin Spott
ys wrote:
 Am 25.07.2012 um 12:17 schrieb Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net:
 HB-GRAL wrote:
 
 New GUI with separated menus/dialogs, viewer in a separate window:
 http://maptest.fgx.ch/screens/one-screen.png
 
 Someone please buy me a display *that* wide so I can still afford using
 space lateral to the viewer for the menu  ;-)

 Hey Martin, you can get mine and I take (all) yours when FlightGear
 keeps that all in one window approach for the next ten years.

The above has been a joke.  I did *not* express my support for the
current all in one window approach, but there are more options than
just the two all in one window and lateral to the viewer  :-)

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Switching from PUI to osgWidget

2012-07-25 Thread Martin Spott
Tim Moore wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net wrote:
 James Turner wrote:

 Or to put it another way - the actual hard part is running the
 widgets in the main OpenGL window - which *is* a requirement for
 full-screen apps and multi-monitor setups.  (Some people have claimed
 otherwise, but I believe we need the option of 'in-window' UI for
 many cases).

 I object - at last I can't envision a case where running the UI inside
 a separate window in front of a (full-screen) viewer is inferior to an
 in-window UI.  All supported window systems provide the required
 information on screen/window-geometry or -placement to position a
 separate UI-window wherever you like.

 One avoids OpenGL rendering to more than one window if possible
 because graphics context switches are expensive.

I can't resist the feeling that running the current PUI menu inside the
main viewer isn't less expensive.  From an empirical point of view I'd
say that opening an xterm in front of a full-screen FG viewer has about
the same impact as enabling the menubar.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] DDS usage in effects files

2012-07-14 Thread Martin Spott
Emilian Huminiuc wrote:

 Hopefuly, warning messages (if left enabled) should appear only when 
 specificaly using Materials/dds/materials.xml

Many thanks for working toward a proper solution,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear Base Package branch, master,

2012-07-14 Thread Martin Spott
Hi guys,

Flightgear-commitlogs wrote:

 commit fe27d8aae3e08fcb46e9df59a5ee67e2e429d8df
 Author: Gijs de Rooy
 Date:   Sat Jul 14 14:19:26 2012 +0200
 
Add Rembrandt light to Alcatraz lighthouse.

Please make sure this sort of updates gets committed to Scenemodels in
the long term, otherwise they'll silently get lost.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Planned downtime of ftp.de

2012-07-11 Thread Martin Spott
ftp.de is currently offline due to hardware failure, it's been a Sun
Ultra10 which has been running for more than a decade now.  I'll take
care of arranging a replacement.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGCom - cmake

2012-07-10 Thread Martin Spott
ThorstenB wrote:

 Schön wieder Fortschritte bei fgcom zu sehen. Und schön CMake + Git zu 
 sehen ;-). Habt ihr auch mal Holger Wirtz kontaktiert?

Unfortunately Holger is unable to contribute to FGCom any more, but
with a bit of luck he'll probably give access to his latest state of
develoment (which, as far as I know, is different from what's available
on Sourceforge).

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Massive shared objects import webtool now active.

2012-07-10 Thread Martin Spott
Olivier wrote:

 I'm happy to announce the production status of the massive 
 shared objects positions import script.

Very nice !

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear branch, next,

2012-06-28 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Curt,

Flightgear-commitlogs wrote:

 diff --git a/package/make-base-package.noarch.sh 
 b/package/make-base-package.noarch.sh
 index bec5472..63e467c 100755
 --- a/package/make-base-package.noarch.sh
 +++ b/package/make-base-package.noarch.sh
 @@ -76,6 +76,8 @@ tar \
data/materials.dtd \
data/materials.xml \
data/mice.xml \
 +   data/Materials \
 +   data/Models \
data/Models \
data/MP \
data/N* \

Did you really mean to include the Models directory twice ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Slow frame rates

2012-06-17 Thread Martin Spott
castle...@comcast.net wrote:

 Multi-core machines have been around for some time now. Perhaps it is
 time to think beyond running Flighgear as a monolithic process in a
 single CPU configuration.

As a start you may want to visit:

  
http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg30433.html

As far as I can tell, splitting the monolithic process is steadily
getting more difficult (despite the fact that almost everybody would
like to see improved multi-core support), because recent eye-candy
development relies on having a monolithic FlightGear - and eye-candy is
attracting flies 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Multi-language support in The Manual

2012-06-16 Thread Martin Spott
Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 Spurred on by Olivier offering to translate The Manual into French,
 I've added support to The Manual source code and build system that
 will allow future translations to be made in any language supported
 by the Latex Babel package.

I just built the English PDF using the new language setup.  Please find
the result here:

  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart.pdf

  which is a symlink to getstart-en.pdf and report, if you
observe striking mistakes or errors compared to the previous version.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Rembrandt - ATI Radeo HD 2600 XT - Ubuntu

2012-06-16 Thread Martin Spott
Frederic Bouvier wrote:

 I found a way to avoid the black window. So I can tell that Rembrandt 
 works perfectly on a HD7750 windowed or fullscreen at 1600x1200. With
 vegetation set to 2.0 and random buildings at 1.0, I get 20 fps on the 
 c172p.

My feeling tells me that these values should be set as defaults  ;-)

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG-api

2012-06-16 Thread Martin Spott
Peter Morgan wrote:

 To add furtheer..
 http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/gitweb.pl?p=sceneryweb;a=blob;f=mapserver/Threshold_ILS_TWR.sh
 
 Were all reinventing a wheel..
[...]
 +YAML++
 Yamls is a nice format cos it machine readable..

I don't understand what you're trying to tell us/me.  The above script
was written four ! years ago, therefore I don't know which wheel has
been reinvented, the output is perfectly machine-readable and the
motivation is explained in this mailing list posting:

  
http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg17407.html

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG-api

2012-06-16 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Yves,

HB-GRAL wrote:

 In this post you write:
 Note, this directory structure is not meant to be used primarily as a
 datasource during runtime.
 
 Why not?

Because when you look at the runtime performance, parsing XML probably
isn't the natural, first choice  :-)

 Example:
 http://code.google.com/p/flightgear-world-scenery/source/browse/data/xplane-single/E/EDDF.xml
 
 I don=92t know if this make sense, but I kindly ask to check it once and =
 
 send comments.

There was a large thread (during FSweekend 2008, I'd guess) as a
follow-up to our announcement of the above XML airport structure. 
That's way too much to repeat here, better ask the archives.  Anyhow,
the bigger picture was to use the XML structure as a transport medium
and to update relevant changes into local, spatially indexed databases
for use with FMS'es and the like.
I don't think you want to parse large amounts of XML while dialling
through the airport list in your FMS when you quickly have to divert to
an alternate because your landing clearance was cancelled and you're
short of fuel.

 I would also vote for a less nested structure than A/B/C/D/.xml, =
 
 just D/.xml

Well, everybody has his personal favourite for a directory structure. 
We had been evaluating a lot of pros and cons (poor man's indexing,
directory traversal latency, number of directories and the like) before
deciding in favour of the structure the way it is now.
The mentioned mailing list thread contains a lot of discussion about
the directory structure as well and there was no convincing argument
against the structure we chose.  Therefore I don't think it's clever to
push yet another schema unless you can provide a Really Good Reason.

Best regards,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear Scenery/Web tools branch, master,

2012-06-07 Thread Martin Spott
Flightgear-commitlogs wrote:
 The branch, master has been updated
 
 - Log -

 commit 01cd74bef43ff957270c4d56743b284f23a32732
 Author: Blackiris
 Date:   Wed Jun 6 10:29:37 2012 +0200
 
Add footer and other HTML stuff

Could anyone tell me who this weird contributor Blackiris is in
real life ?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear

2012-06-07 Thread Martin Spott
Julien Nguyen wrote:

 Oh, it's me...
 
 Have I done something wrong ? (I don't know with this nickname was used by 
 the way)

I think the key is to understand the particular difference between the
GIT repository and the Gitorious web site.
Apparently Gitorious somehow manages to translate the GIT nicknames
into Gitorious accounts, but of course the GIT repository doesn't know
about the Gitorious web site.  Therefore a git log will show just the
names (and/or EMail addresses) you put into every single GIT commit.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] The next FlightGear release (summer 2012)

2012-06-07 Thread Martin Spott
Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 I'm not sure that is correct, but my memory is dim.  My recollection was that
 even after we converted the main cvs branch to OSG, we kept a plib branch
 that was used for a subsequent release.

There's a key difference: The OSG port, at least when it was added to
CVS, was pretty functional almost from day one, even on feeble graphics
cards.  That's substantially different with Rembrandt, where some of
the essentials still don't work properly on moderately powerful cards
(even after obeying the recommendations Fred has been posting to this
list).
The OSG port just developed that slow because there was strong lobbying
against it.  Rembrandt, in contrast, has been widely adopted by
developers but apparently there's still a lot do be done.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Rembrandt in general, instead, I
think it's a cool idea - but, according to my opinion, cool is not
sufficient for applying as an 'official' release feature.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] The next FlightGear release (summer 2012)

2012-06-07 Thread Martin Spott
Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 So you would prefer not to mention it in the change log and release
 note?

In order to save everybody from pointless discussion, I won't disclose
my preference.  Anyhow I'd vote for seriously taking into account,
that, for a large fraction of FlightGear's user base, Rembrandt
probably won't work as expected - simply because it implies such a wide
variety of potential pitfalls.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear mapserver offline

2012-06-04 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

 Yes, Power and network are available again, but the machine doesn't
 boot and so far I'm unable to tell why.  I'll announce when it's back.

Back,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear mapserver offline

2012-06-01 Thread Martin Spott
Michael Sgier wrote:

 Still down:

Yes, Power and network are available again, but the machine doesn't
boot and so far I'm unable to tell why.  I'll announce when it's back.
If it takes too long, I'll switch over to a slower but functional
backup site,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear mapserver offline

2012-06-01 Thread Martin Spott
Michael Sgier wrote:

 It it's running Linux, do from a live dvd a fsck.

Cool idea, I've have never thought about that 

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] AI Aircrafts and ground level

2012-05-30 Thread Martin Spott
Harald Johnsen wrote:

 Since I'm actually working a bit on AI aircraft animations, I propose to 
 not use the offset tag in the AI traffic files (ie doing as if that 
 offset was null) [...]

Seconded,

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear mapserver offline

2012-05-29 Thread Martin Spott
Just as an informal notice, some of the machines in San Diego
apparently didn't recover from another power outage:

  http://www.ucsd.edu/emergency/

The FlightGear MapServer, Scenemodels and the GIT mirror are affected.
The PostgreSQL database backend behind the two web sites is functional
again - we just can't make much use of it 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear Base Package branch, master,

2012-05-24 Thread Martin Spott
Flightgear-commitlogs wrote:

 The branch, master has been updated
 
 - Log -
 commit 7206a7aef7af552e216d09897eb3a70dac359525
 Author: BARANGER Emmanuel
 Date:   Thu May 24 02:50:36 2012 +0200
 
New plane : Heinkel He 111

Feels like I've seen this before  ;-)

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] No sound under Ubuntu 12.04

2012-05-24 Thread Martin Spott
Salut Maxime,

Maxime Guillaud wrote:

 AL lib: oss.c:169: Could not open /dev/dsp: No such file or directory
 Error: Audio device not available, trying default
 AL lib: oss.c:169: Could not open /dev/dsp: No such file or directory
 Error: Default Audio device not available.

I didn't care about FG sound for years, but as far as my rusty memory
serves, /dev/dsp is provided by some OSS compatibility layer on top
of ALSA (or whatever you're using).
Thus I'd suspect the respective kernel module is not available.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Random Buildings - memory consumption

2012-05-23 Thread Martin Spott
Emilian Huminiuc wrote:

 http://mapserver.flightgear.org/map/?lon=-118.18562lat=33.91857zoom=11layers=0B00TFFFTFFFTFFF

Just as a reminder the colour legend is here:

  http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LandcoverDB_CS_Detail

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Regional textures merge request

2012-05-22 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Yves,

flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote:

 Good point from Martin Spott off-list ;-) but anyway, has there ever been
 a proposal how this regions could be defined ? Is there a wiki, a readme
 or something ?

Well, in case of doubt, a simple, easily maintained text list would
serve the task of mapping country- or region-codes to the various
texture sets.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Pitch and Roll interpretation in STG files

2012-05-18 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Clement,


Clement de l'Hamaide wrote:

 Currently pitch and roll doesn't exist in STG file. A good proverb
 say do it yourself, thus I implemented the pitch and roll
 interpretation in STG files.

Good idea - anyhow I'd like to point out that you can also define pitch
and roll in the XML file:


?xml version=1.0?
PropertyList
  pathsomething.flt/path
  offsets
roll-deg-0.0123456789/roll-deg
pitch-deg0.0123456789/pitch-deg
  /offsets
/PropertyList


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] The (never ending) story about

2012-05-12 Thread Martin Spott
Björn Kesten wrote:

 They should scrap the new airport and just reopen Tempelhof.

+1

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[Flightgear-devel] The (never ending) story about Berlin-Brandenburg airport

2012-05-11 Thread Martin Spott
I'm not sure wether that's funny or sad - at least it's extremely
rare  ;-)

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/EDDB-NT.png

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear branch, next,

2012-05-05 Thread Martin Spott
Flightgear-commitlogs wrote:
 The branch, next has been updated
 
 - Log -
 commit b9260f543b8dae06c6a80b12c930e367805f34c4
 Author: ThorstenB
 Date:   Sat May 5 01:08:20 2012 +0200
 
Ganael Laplanche: fix include dependencies for FreeBSD support

Cool !  I'm checking the FreeBSD port almost every week, but until
recently it's still been at 2.4, looks like this will change soon  :-)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Flightgear-commitlogs] FlightGear branch,

2012-05-05 Thread Martin Spott
James Turner wrote:
 
 On 5 May 2012, at 09:00, Martin Spott wrote:
 
   Ganael Laplanche: fix include dependencies for FreeBSD support
 
 Cool !  I'm checking the FreeBSD port almost every week, but until
 recently it's still been at 2.4, looks like this will change soon  :-)
 
 Yep, if any CMake assistance is required, please just ask.

Ganael Laplanche is the maintainer of the FlightGear FreeBSD port,
therefore I suspect the job to be completed now that he submits fixes
upstream  ;-)

Apparently it is:

  
http://www.freshports.org/commit.php?files=yesmessage_id=201204271228.q3rcsnzi032...@repoman.freebsd.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] An empassioned plea

2012-05-04 Thread Martin Spott
Alex Perry wrote:

 It would probably make things a lot simpler for the average user if
 FGFS included a wizard that automatically identified which
 combinations of features would be usable on a specific installation.
 Using that result as constraining logic in the menus would allow
 unusable features to be kept disabled and trivially cheap features
 (for the given hardware) to be kept enabled.

I think the biggest obstacle on this route is the fact that there's no
reliable switch for disabling certain features.  Just think about
previous discussions on disabling shaders which: As far as I remember
the bottom line, disabling shaders relies on every shader honouring a
certain property.  Some, maybe most shaders honour one property, others
honour a second property and even if you try to disable shaders by
toggling these properties, some are still getting activated because
they don't care about switches at all.

Selectively disabling features is probably not going to work reasonable
as long as the features in question are required to play nice in order
to get disabled, there's no such infrastructure as a kill-switch to
prevent the use/loading of *any* shaders (or whichever additional
feature).

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Rembrandt on old cards

2012-05-01 Thread Martin Spott
Voila, your weekly screenshot(s):

jive: 14:55:15 ~ find .fgfs*
.fgfsrc
jive: 14:55:27 ~ env | grep \^FG
FG_HOME=/opt/FlightGear
FG_ROOT=/home/martin/SCM/FlightGear/fgdata
jive: 14:55:39 ~ cat ~/.fgfsrc 
--timeofday=noon
--enable-rembrandt
--prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/enabled=true
--prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/num-cascades=1
--prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/cascade-far-m[0]=50
--prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/map-size=2048
--prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/filtering=2
--prop:/sim/rendering/use-color-for-depth=true
--prop:/sim/rendering/shaders/quality-level=0
--prop:/sim/rendering/shaders/skydome=false
--prop:/sim/rendering/random-vegetation=0
jive: 14:55:42 ~ env | grep \^FG
FG_HOME=/opt/FlightGear
FG_ROOT=/home/martin/SCM/FlightGear/fgdata
jive: 14:55:49 ~ /opt/FlightGear/bin/fgfs | tee fgfs-rembrandt_04.txt

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_04.0.png

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_04.1.png

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_04.txt


Debian Linux/AMD64, Nvidia GeForce 7950 GT, closed source driver
version 295.40.  Omitting shaders/quality-level, shaders/skydome
and random-vegetation doesn't make a visual difference.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Rembrandt on old cards

2012-05-01 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

 Voila, your weekly screenshot(s):

BTW, if you'd prefer me to stop posting these screenshots, please
shout,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Rembrandt on old cards

2012-05-01 Thread Martin Spott
Frederic Bouvier wrote:
 Voila, your weekly screenshot(s):
 
   http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_04.0.png
   http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_04.1.png
 
 Looks like there is some progress, isn't it ?

Definitely !

 Debian Linux/AMD64, Nvidia GeForce 7950 GT, closed source driver
 version 295.40.  Omitting shaders/quality-level, shaders/skydome
 and random-vegetation doesn't make a visual difference.
 
 These settings should have been recorded as user data, so are persistent 
 from one run to another.

I usually try make sure not to keep any garbage from previous sessions
by removing the ~/.fgfs/ directory   or does FlightGear write to
any other place as well ?

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Random Buildings

2012-04-25 Thread Martin Spott
Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 I don't believe the town model has been used for some time. It was supersede
 by the random object masking I introduced a while back.

I think what John and Yves are talking about is the introduction of the
various zone_maison models for each spot (therefore the term
point-geometry) where just a single building is supposed to be
placed:

  
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/gitweb.pl?p=fgdata;a=blobdiff;f=materials.xml;h=0ccd5813d67dafeb144aa3869ca251570f4d8e5d;hp=aded880617f7f367c08df928abf2cde42a847dea;hb=b67df1d2c2a6a0e16cf5fd16f11eb5585fc27012;hpb=4fc9647ee594f3ae8db638a7186bd42db93437a9

  which leads to pretty obscure effects in many places.
Unfortunately Erik never bothered responding to this issue, therefore
it's uncertain wether he'd silently agree or silently disagree to
reverting the above commit.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Random Buildings

2012-04-25 Thread Martin Spott
Erik Hofman wrote:
 On Wed, 2012-04-25 at 08:26 +, Martin Spott wrote:

 Unfortunately Erik never bothered responding to this issue, therefore
 it's uncertain wether he'd silently agree or silently disagree to
 reverting the above commit.
 
 I don't mind if it gets reverted but I did respond [...]

Ah, looks like I've missed that one.

Sorry,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] updates to nav.dat.gz

2012-04-24 Thread Martin Spott
Hi Thorsten,

ThorstenB wrote:
 On 23.04.2012 13:52, Christian Schmitt wrote:

 We could, if the xml parser would not simply discard any new runways that
 are not already in the apt.dat file.
 
 If I understood a comment of James in the bug tracker correctly, this, 
 however, always has been and still is the normal behaviour, since these 
 XML files were only intended to provide updated airport info, not 
 introduce completely new ones (so it's not a new bug, as someone 
 suggested).

Indeed, the XML structure was primarily meant to override incorrect
values of pre-existing airfields.  Anyhow it's by far flexible enough
to add additional features wherever it makes sense.  Thus, for the
cases you outlined, I don't see the need for distributing yet another
set of files carrying almost redundant data.

 The xml files are small, can be distributed easily and are very fine-
 grained, meaning that FG only has to parse the data it really needs for the
 current scenery path, instead of parsing a close-to 100 MB file on every
 startup (only for the apt data).
 
 I think we need the complete airport data in many places, i.e. when 
 mapping the given start airport code to a starting position, to display 
 the list of available airports in the selection dialog, to have data for 
 the route manager, data for scheduling AI traffic, and for the Nasal 
 interface to nav/airport data (which James is just updating these days). 
 These probably all rely on a complete airport list being available 
 straight away.

A complete airport list in the meaning of a list containing all
airports, a list containing all features of an airport or a list
containing all features of all airports ?  That's quite a huge
difference  :-)
The Scenery/Airports/ layout was designed with minimal overhead in
mind.  First there's a plain-text file index.txt, sufficient to build
a simple geographical index of all airfields.  After the relevant
airfields of interest (AoI's  ;-)  have been identified,  quick
access if provided by the one-letter XML directory structure.

 So, we probably can't restrict things to the current display area. What 
 may make sense is a better, non-compressed file format though, where we 
 only load basic data (airport names/position/runways/...) at start-up, 
 which would probably only require a few 100K. Later, we could go back 
 into the (database) file and load additional data on demand, such as 
 taxiway information, etc. (Which reminds of this 
 http://developer.x-plane.com/2009/09/scalability-and-apt-dat/ ).
 
 If data needs to be loaded anyway (airport codes/positions), then 
 distributing it to tons of individual files may not help with start-up 
 delays either.

Given the above structure theres no need neither to parse huge
apt.dat files nor to load tons of individual files.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] updates to nav.dat.gz

2012-04-24 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

 Indeed, the XML structure was primarily meant to override incorrect
 values of pre-existing airfields.

BTW, here's the initial announcement:

  
http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg17407.html

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] updates to nav.dat.gz

2012-04-24 Thread Martin Spott
flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote:

 Is the code/the queries to produce the xml output from the postgres
 apt/nav.dat database available for public somewhere?

It's a simple Bash/PostgreSQL proof of concept which has seen
'evolutionary' development, looping through the list of ICAO codes,
collecting the relevant data and echoing hand-crafted XML.  Now I know
it works as planned, I'd use Perl XML::Writer to do it again, probably
saving more than 50 % of code lines  ;-)


  
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/gitweb.pl?p=sceneryweb;a=blob;f=mapserver/Threshold_ILS_TWR.sh

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [Rembrandt] the plan

2012-04-16 Thread Martin Spott
Frederic Bouvier wrote:

 This shader error affects shadow rendering and for now, I don't 
 have a replacement. The only thing I can propose for this kind 
 of card, is to disable shadow rendering :
 
 --prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/enabled=false

Here's your weekly screenshot from 1 hour old GIT:

jive: 11:14:57 ~ find .fgfs*
find: No match.
jive: 11:15:06 ~ env | grep \^FG
FG_HOME=/opt/FlightGear
FG_ROOT=/home/martin/SCM/FlightGear/fgdata
jive: 11:15:10 ~ fgfs --timeofday=noon --enable-rembrandt 
--prop:/sim/rendering/shaders/quality-level=0 
--prop:/sim/rendering/shaders/skydome=false 
--prop:/sim/rendering/random-vegetation=0 
--prop:/sim/rendering/no-16bit-buffer=true 
--prop:/sim/rendering/shadows/enabled=false|tee fgfs-rembrandt_03.txt

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_03.png

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/FGFS/fgfs-rembrandt_03.txt

Reminder, this is on stable Debian Linux/AMD64, Nvidia GeForce 7950 GT,
closed source driver version 295.40.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader - Environment interfacing issues

2012-04-13 Thread Martin Spott
Renk Thorsten wrote:
Emilian wrote:
 It would be good to make it Weather system agnostic from the  
 effect/shader side of things, don't you think?
 
 No. 
 
 If you want to render atmospheric light effects, the shader needs to
 know the structure of the atmosphere and at what altitude the light
 attenuation due to clouds occurs, and the only system which has this
 information is the weather system, so the effect side can not be
 agnostic to what goes on in the weather system.

Emilian proposes the weather system to be agnostic about the shaders,
not the shaders to be agnostic about weather.
Anyhow, starting at an even higher level of detail, the weather system
might be required to know where sunlight actually hits the ground 

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] updates to nav.dat.gz

2012-04-10 Thread Martin Spott
flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote:

 Maybe it???s time to establish a new contact to Robin Peel. I sent him
 data too but never got any answer, I sent my data to Martin Spott and
 the airports have never been updated, nore in apt.dat shipped with
 flightgear nore in scenery files derived via terrasync.

Just as a clarification to everyone: The XML files on TerraSync are
meant to represent the actual Scenery provided at this very place
(TerraSync).  Thus, introducing new airfield layouts/references without
changing the corresponding terrain would lead to inconsistencies -
which is why I refrained from doing so.  Read also:

  
http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg17407.html

The same applies to shipping modified apt.dat files with the Base
Package as long as use-custom-scenery-data flag wasn't established as
default.
Therefore I've been collecting the various contributions just for the
purpose of saving valuable work from bit-rot.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] updates to nav.dat.gz

2012-04-10 Thread Martin Spott
flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote:

 I know about this inconsistencies, and this of course the core of the
 problem. When flightgear reads from one updated scenery source and from
 one corresponding data source we wont run into the same problems anymore,

I think that's true, but really hard to achieve.  Especially now that
private, isolated sceneries are popping up everywhere, decoupling the
Scenery from the Base Package is probably more important than ever
before - even if it's just for the sake of preserving Base Package
maintainers' nerves from wearing thin   ;-)

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] updates to nav.dat.gz

2012-04-10 Thread Martin Spott
Gene Buckle wrote:
 On Mon, 9 Apr 2012, Michael Sgier wrote:
 
 Traffic and parking etc. are handled via xml files in Flightgear different 
 to X-Plane.
 But to make changes to the opensource apt.dat forward them to Robin:
 http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=58356

 Right, but if you use the v10 format, all that data is there and you don't 
 have to hand-craft an xml file for every airport in the database.  It's 
 silly not to leverage an already existing resource, especially when it can 
 save a ton of work.

Gene, as you know, FlightGear's XML structure for taxiway routing and
other scenery-related airport info predates the capabilities of the v10
X-Plane apt.dat format by _many_ years.  All the work's already been
done, therefore, even if it might be worthwhile to consider merging
FlightGear's data stock into Robin's file, your claim sounds a bit
inappropriate.

And there's still one thing to consider: Having one central set of
apt./nav.dat files in the Base Package still doesn't address the trend
of the FlightGear project and Scenery development proceeding
asynchronously.

Cheers,
Martin.
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