Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Vivian Meazza wrote: Been doing some more eye-candy myself: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57645542/fgfs-screen-093.png using our new linear texture facility. It's not it FGdata yet, and I'm not even sure it's going to make the next release. That looks very nice. Presumably it would also work for roads? -Stuart -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Yes it does, but haven't got any nice textures for that yet. Any volunteers? Vivian From: Stuart Buchanan [mailto:stuar...@gmail.com] Sent: 19 November 2012 10:05 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012... On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Vivian Meazza wrote: Been doing some more eye-candy myself: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57645542/fgfs-screen-093.png using our new linear texture facility. It's not it FGdata yet, and I'm not even sure it's going to make the next release. That looks very nice. Presumably it would also work for roads? -Stuart -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Thorsten wrote Hmm . that's an underwhelming list, and I can't come up with anything that's really any better. Does that encapsulate the problem? Well well, it would seem our shader-based treatment of light and the environment is quite competitive against what FSX has to offer: http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19t=18325#p170811 Yes, I've been trawling around YouTube for anything which is better, or even as good as our sky and sea. I think we are the at least the equal of FSX and XPlane, and probably better. Slightly subjective though. Been doing some more eye-candy myself: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57645542/fgfs-screen-093.png using our new linear texture facility. It's not it FGdata yet, and I'm not even sure it's going to make the next release. But I wonder if that sort of thing really gives enough to justify going from 2.10 -3.0? Vivian -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hmm . that's an underwhelming list, and I can't come up with anything that's really any better. Does that encapsulate the problem? Well well, it would seem our shader-based treatment of light and the environment is quite competitive against what FSX has to offer: http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19t=18325#p170811 * Thorsten -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 21:44:59 +0100, Gijs wrote in message dub002-w526f44a3616768d066e468d3...@phx.gbl: Anyone got a Kinect or two? This would make a nice attention-grabber (controlling an aircraft by moving your bare hands in space) :-) http://threegearsystems.blogspot.nl/2012/11/flightgear-demo.html ..enjoy the legal side: ;o) http://uk.gamespot.com/news/microsoft-denies-kinect-hack-claims-6283696 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/microsoft-surrenders-on-linux-kinect-hack/7769 ..the tech side: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/kinect-linux http://openkinect.org/wiki/Main_Page http://www.freenect.com/ http://www.kinecthacks.com/kinect-linux-multitouch-screen/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llNSQ2u2rT4feature=related ..alternatives independent of Kinect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GhNXHCQGsMfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCtYdUEMotgfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91tYEgpmN4Mfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni9nAm-Thswfeature=related ..further hacks... ;o) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiNX-vpDhMofeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw4RvwhQ73Efeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVCghLfdzsYfeature=related -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Anyone got a Kinect or two? This would make a nice attention-grabber (controlling an aircraft by moving your bare hands in space) :-) http://threegearsystems.blogspot.nl/2012/11/flightgear-demo.html -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Am 06.11.2012 22:16, schrieb Durk Talsma: Yes, I also talked to Martin Crompton. James told me later on that you had been in touch with him. My action was rather spontaneous, so I asked him whether we could try to support Saitek products, without me knowing that you were also working on it. I hope we can join forces. I got their radiostack to try, and this looks like it's going to be a little more involved, since it may need its own USB driver. I'll try to send Martin just a quick note later tonight. You might want to check out the event input system, I have implemented some time ago. It's much more flexible than our joystick input system as it handles more events (relative axies e.g.) and is able to send events _to_ the device, too (switching LED's e.g.). Tat implemented this for the OSX, so it should be working there, too. The Windows implementation is still missing, unfortunately. Also, Melchior implemented raw HID communication using Nasal for the Thrustmaster Warthog, but limited to Linux use. If the Saitek devices don't use HID at all, things will become _very_ tricky and probably impossible to get them running cross platform. Torsten -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Torsten, You might want to check out the event input system, I have implemented some time ago. It's much more flexible than our joystick input system as it handles more events (relative axies e.g.) and is able to send events _to_ the device, too (switching LED's e.g.). Tat implemented this for the OSX, so it should be working there, too. The Windows implementation is still missing, unfortunately. Thanks for these pointers. I can probably need all the help I can get. For windows, the Saitek products have their own USB driver, so that shouldn't be a problem. Only trick is how to read/write to/from them. Also, Melchior implemented raw HID communication using Nasal for the Thrustmaster Warthog, but limited to Linux use. Sounds like this might be a good start to look at. If the Saitek devices don't use HID at all, things will become _very_ tricky and probably impossible to get them running cross platform. I just plugged in the device, linked the USB device to my virtual Windows 8 box, where it showed up as using two devices. One of them was HID, so I think we're good. Also, Martin Crompton, my contact at Saitek appears to be very forthcoming in providing me with documentation, etc. We haven't talked about licensing issues jet, but he was very helpful in providing either documentation, additional hardware to test, or even do some work on the more lower level stuff. I just have to make sure I don't get carried away too quickly. Cheers, Durk -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On 8 Nov 2012, at 09:04, Durk Talsma wrote: I just plugged in the device, linked the USB device to my virtual Windows 8 box, where it showed up as using two devices. One of them was HID, so I think we're good. Also, Martin Crompton, my contact at Saitek appears to be very forthcoming in providing me with documentation, etc. We haven't talked about licensing issues jet, but he was very helpful in providing either documentation, additional hardware to test, or even do some work on the more lower level stuff. I just have to make sure I don't get carried away too quickly. Fantastic. It's worth pointing out, whatever work you do, probably also helps support of X-Plane on Linux and Mac, if that is not already supported. Regards, James -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Thanks for the responses, I think I understand the issue much better. The eye catcher is not the gem, but things you see, and notice, from a distance, like a huge flag with free writen on it. I guess it'd just be a matter of setting things up. Sure, on a laptop things tend to get lost. But just a simple example - on googling 'FSX sunset' images I find that FSX doesn't seem to have anywhere Mie scattering on clouds. We do, and it looks pretty darn impressive when clouds illuminated from behind light up in low light. So all it'd take is to get a weather situation in which this happens set up and project it on a sufficiently large screen, and voila - here's a potential eye catcher. Of course, overall we're still going to lose that game in the long run though. Almost by definition, a commercial product is going to focus all resources on the things that people notice first. Say to get a good FDM takes five full working days, to get the last 10% takes another 100 days. But only a tiny fraction of users will notice the last 10%, and only after some trying out, but they make your product 20 times more expensive - and thus a commercial product will develop things on average only to a break-even point so that it makes most users happy at minimum effort. And that's where Flightgear is very different, because now and then people put an insane amount of work into something that will never be noticed by vast majority of users - because for someone a particular detail is important and so it gets lots of attention, way more than would ever be economically viable. We just don't care too much about appearances because the problems are so simple :-) - I think for instance consistently removing unrated, non-functional or unfinished airplanes from the main download page would go quite a way in making Flightgear look more professional in the eye of the casual user who is just curious and wats to try - if we ever wanted to do so - but we're not going to do it, because it's a boring administrative problem, and nobody likes those when he can tackle an interesting problem (me not being the exception here...). And we're losing out on resources. I don't know how much manpower a commercial sim typically has, I think I remember MS Flight had a team of 20 or so. That looks about like the number of active major contributors here, except that if my coding time is representative, I get about 1/10 to 1/20 of the workload of a full-timer done, so we're losing by more than an order of magnitude. It doesn't always help us that with an open source product we have a potentially unlimited number of contributors, since for some tasks you need a highly coordinated workforce. If I think what I would need in order to make the sky visuals better than any FSX screenshots I've seen, it's mainly down to things like raw data and image processing - e.g. I lack aerial images which tell me what I am aiming at. For instance, my worst problem is - how does a high altitude scene look like when the sun is at the horizon and I look *away* from the sun? You can simply forget googling images for that, because everyone points the camera the other way. I've twice sort of seen it by being on the right side of the plane during a transatlantic, but it's not the same as having an image which you can use to sample rgb values. I also know some of the cloud textures could benefit from a better extraction procedure and better raw images - if I had a graphic artist which can do these things, we'd be good, but if it's down to my 12 year old digicam pointing at the sky and my GIMP skills, there's a limit to the quality of the final product. Lots of things don't require coding but just patient testing of parameter values - I remember getting a different (rgb) triplet for the base sky color from someone, which made things look much better - but that simple color info is worth for me several days of tests. If I had an artist adjusting parameters to get scenes right, we'd be in much better shape. But even with a potentially infinite pool of contributors, we don't get people to do what we need when we need it - because volunteers work on what they want when they want. So, also in terms of resources, commercial products have an edge here. I think generically, we can only win in areas where people are really obsessed over details, and the fact that FGFS is superior in that particular detail will never be eye-catching. I also think if we really wanted, we could do a lot to make a more professional appearance to new users - well defined standards on the download page, a consistently designed GUI maintained by a co-ordinated task force rather than everyone adding as he thinks fit, standards on documentation updates, all the nasty things,... Well, that's my 2 cents at least... * Thorsten -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi all, Now that my last exams of 2012 are over, I finally have some time to write a lengthy email :-) FSweekend Too sad I could only join on Saturday (due to exams), but I'm glad I did come! Meeting James, Alexis and Christian in person was really nice, and so was the rest of the day. Next year I hope to be there three full days, but I'm afraid the examperiod will be around the same weeks... Despite the somewhat less organised event, I think we did pretty well overal. We had some interesting talks, and we definitely attracted some new users. Some of my observations at FSweekend: We missed the big banners. Without clear name badge for the project, we cannot expect people to know/find us. A few people did read our T-shirts and found us that way, but I'm sure some people had the intention to visit the FlightGear booth, but were unable to find it (or forgot about it and because there was no big banner, so they simply didn't get a mental reminder while walking by).Looking at pictures on other simulator websites, it looks as if lots of people did not visit the Uiverzaal (the room where FG was located). Probably because it is somewhat tucked away in a corner. Maybe this is something that needs to be forwarded to Frans?Nevertheless I think I spoke to more people that knew about FlightGear than ever before. That seems to get better every single year.. Maybe it's because the same people visit Lelystad every year; maybe it's because people start looking for alternatives to MSFS...Beamers are great, as they can provide a view to many more spectators than you can gather around an ordinary screen. We did have the largest screen so far, but it was floating somewhere in the room, so there was no clear connection to our booth. Being able to give people a DVD/CD/USB (the installer is 640 MB for Windows, that should fit on a CD...) with the latest version of FlightGear would probably encourage them to install it and actually try the software. We do tell people to download it from our website, but most of them will forget about it. If you bring a CD home with you, you will probably at least look at it before you throw it away. Of course this costs money, so we may need to look at some fundraising (sponsoring?).That's enough for now :-) SaitekDurk, in case you didn't find Stuart's article yet, here is the link: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Hardware_Review:_Saitek_Pro_Flight_Cessna_controls Collimated display Hm, thinking about it, I could try to get something going at my university. We recently bought a 727 home cockpit, which is used as promotion material on open days. The builder of that cockpit still owns it partly, but the university uses it. It could make sense to make the display for the university (using their machinery), donate it to them and in return have it shipped to Lelystad once a year... Comparing with MSFS and X-Plane Feel free to use the wiki to make a list of unique features and/or comparison to other simulator. Someone started this a while ago, but it could use some loving care: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Unique_Features I once started on a key binding comparison, (hopefully) making it easier for people to switch: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Key_commands_compared_to_other_simulators In this series, we can also add a dictionary (eg. what we call liveries are called paintjobs in certain communities) etc.. Listing the differences would also make a good feature request list, so we can work on great features that other sims have, but we lack. I think people would like to have at least the same, and possible better/more features before they'd consider switching. Aircraft download page I have a fully functional revamped download page set up at http://flightgear.byethost31.com/aircraft/aircraftpage.html, but there were some issues getting it operational on flightgear.org intialy, so we decided to push the old scheme for this release. We can always add this interactive page though, and now that my last exams of 2012 are over, I'll have a closer look at it again. Feedback is welcome! Cheers, Gijs -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Gijs wrote: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Unique_Features Hmm . that's an underwhelming list, and I can't come up with anything that's really any better. Does that encapsulate the problem? Our USP is that FG is FREE - yes FREE. We might not have as much eye-candy as other sims, some of our ac as good as other sims (and some aren't) but hey - it's free, and cross platform. Anything else? .snip Comparing with MSFS and X-Plane Feel free to use the wiki to make a list of unique features and/or comparison to other simulator. Someone started this a while ago, but it could use some loving care: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Unique_Features I once started on a key binding comparison, (hopefully) making it easier for people to switch: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Key_commands_compared_to_other_simulators In this series, we can also add a dictionary (eg. what we call liveries are called paintjobs in certain communities) etc.. Listing the differences would also make a good feature request list, so we can work on great features that other sims have, but we lack. I think people would like to have at least the same, and possible better/more features before they'd consider switching. snip -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Gijs de Rooy wrote: Beamers are great, as they can provide a view to many more spectators than you can gather around an ordinary screen. We did have the largest screen so far, but it was floating somewhere in the room, so there was no clear connection to our booth. +1. In particular it makes it much easier for the people not actually using the sim to see what's going on - something that's particularly important if people are going to have queue for 5 minutes before they get the opportunity to try for themselves. One other nice side-effect of using a projector is that their reduced resolution relative to a LCD display means one can run more eye-candy or get better frame-rates. Being able to give people a DVD/CD/USB (the installer is 640 MB for Windows, that should fit on a CD...) with the latest version of FlightGear would probably encourage them to install it and actually try the software. We do tell people to download it from our website, but most of them will forget about it. If you bring a CD home with you, you will probably at least look at it before you throw it away. Of course this costs money, so we may need to look at some fundraising (sponsoring?). Curt - at one point you sold FG CDs/DVDs. What's the cost per DVD with a nice label? Comparing with MSFS and X-Plane Feel free to use the wiki to make a list of unique features and/or comparison to other simulator. Someone started this a while ago, but it could use some loving care: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Unique_Features I agree with Vivian, currently this list is rather un-inspiring, and really doesn't address the question Why should I switch from FS-X?. I'll have a think about how to address that question for the next release so we've got some collateral to go with our release note. Aircraft download page I have a fully functional revamped download page set up at http://flightgear.byethost31.com/aircraft/aircraftpage.html, but there were some issues getting it operational on flightgear.org intialy, so we decided to push the old scheme for this release. We can always add this interactive page though, and now that my last exams of 2012 are over, I'll have a closer look at it again. Feedback is welcome! We should absolutely have aircraft-rating filters on the main download page. The aircraft raitings have been around long enough now. I suggest that we mention this explicitly when we announce the beginning of the release process so that aircraft authors have plenty of time to add ratings. Note that this requires a bit of cleverness when writing the parsing script, as some ratings are not stored in the -set.xml file, but rather a file that is included withing that one. I'd also suggest that by default it should only show aircraft with a 3+ rating, so that a completely new user will only see the best aircraft we've got available. Gijs - some direct feedback: I can't see anyone wanting to only show aircraft with a rating less than a given value, so I think the sliders should just consist of minimum values. -Stuart -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Stuart, One other nice side-effect of using a projector is that their reduced resolution relative to a LCD display means one can run more eye-candy or get better frame-rates. Just a quick (and admittedly not completely serious) response for now: Not quite true: I specifically bought a full HD projector, so that I can a) run Flightgear at full res at FSWeekend, and b) maximize it's utility at home for watching blu-rays. :-) I'll write a more serious repley regarding your other remarks tomorrow. Cheers, Durk -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi stuart and Jaroslav, thanks for the aircraft page feedback! the quick search works on authors only Oops, that's a bug :-) Actually, I have two versions of the script. The other is at http://flightgear.byethost31.com/wordpress/download/download-aircraft (don't mind the layout, that was just another test, but I'll convert it to the current layout). That one has functional keyword search, but the rating filtering is slightly confused. I'll mix both scripts and then we should end up with a working example. Note that this requires a bit of cleverness when writing the parsing script, as some ratings are not stored in the -set.xml file, but rather a file that is included withing that one. That's not an issue. The script can already deal with nested -set files (eg. all Emmanuel's -base.xml aircraft are parsed fine). The only real issue that we have right now is how to filter on a per -set.xml base. We provide the downloads on a per-directory base. This was never a real issue, but now it is, because one directory can contain aircraft with different ratings. At the moment I show all these as individual aircraft, so some aircraft in the list link to the same download package (eg. 777-200, 777-200ER, 777-200LR)... Ideas are welcome. I've been unable to come up with a good solution so far. I can't see anyone wanting to only show aircraft with a rating less than a given value It may be interesting to aircraft developers. If you want something to work on, you'd be looking for low rated aircraft. I've left it in to show what's possible, but maybe we should indeed leave it out. It may confuse new users. Gijs -- Everyone hates slow websites. So do we. Make your web apps faster with AppDynamics Download AppDynamics Lite for free today: http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_nov___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Thorsten, On 07 Nov 2012, at 08:52, Renk Thorsten wrote: If I'm not much mistaken, during the last year we got (in addition to Rembrandt): * atmospheric light scattering * regional texturing * placement masks for random objects * procedural texturing * Canvas with all the goodies for HUDs and MFDs and the GUI Surely there must be something in this list which qualifies as major innovation? Surely this is not _all_ my personal bias that I like certain features? :-) Please note that I never said that we didn't *have* any major new features. The major difference between previous years and this year was that we didn't have *obvious* eye catchers. Every feature you mention is really a great improvement, but they are not sufficiently salient to be noticeable for the casual visitor who spends maybe 5 seconds looking at our setup before deciding to stay any longer of keep moving. Not in the sense of -lets say- an aerotowing demo, or a 10-screen computer. The features you mention are relevant for the visitor who is already interested, but not sufficient as an eye-catcher. Cheers, Durk -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On 7 Nov 2012, at 08:24, Durk Talsma wrote: Surely there must be something in this list which qualifies as major innovation? Surely this is not _all_ my personal bias that I like certain features? :-) Please note that I never said that we didn't *have* any major new features. The major difference between previous years and this year was that we didn't have *obvious* eye catchers. Every feature you mention is really a great improvement, but they are not sufficiently salient to be noticeable for the casual visitor who spends maybe 5 seconds looking at our setup before deciding to stay any longer of keep moving. Not in the sense of -lets say- an aerotowing demo, or a 10-screen computer. The features you mention are relevant for the visitor who is already interested, but not sufficient as an eye-catcher. Also, everything on Thorsten's lists is things that FS-X does, or has done even for some time. Maybe not as good (but maybe better) as our solutions, but again, that's no help for catching people's initial attention. James -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:30:47 James Turner wrote: Also, everything on Thorsten's lists is things that FS-X does, or has done even for some time. Maybe not as good (but maybe better) as our solutions, but again, that's no help for catching people's initial attention. James What about AI traffic according to real-life schedules, for most major airlines? That's something FS-X doesn't do out of the box. Cheers, Adrian -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Adrian, On 07 Nov 2012, at 09:48, Adrian Musceac wrote: What about AI traffic according to real-life schedules, for most major airlines? That's something FS-X doesn't do out of the box. That's certainly a good feature to mention and -as you may have guessed- something I care about a lot. I usually mention the AI traffic system when talking to interested visitors. But, like the other features mentioned, the coolness of it is in the details. For the casual visitor, it's just a bunch of aircraft (much like the way FSX has them), and therefore, not really a reason to stop by and start asking questions. Also, with regard to the second group of visitors I mentioned in my previous email, the FSX aficionados, couldn't care less if FSX doesn't do this out of the box. Last weekend, I got a very strong impression that these people consider FSX to not much more than an elaborate API where you need to buy loads of add-ons to work. So, these people also don't really care that FSX can't do something out of the box. The standard response would be there's an add-on that will do exactly this. On a more general note, the latter argument makes it really difficult to convince these people that FlightGear might be worth considering. I've also gotten a few questions about whether there would be commercial add-ons for FlightGear, and the fact that there isn't any need for them doesn't convince these people at all. Anyway, its a tricky problem and it make me realize that I wasn't born to be a salesman. :-) Cheers, Durk P.S., I do hope to pick up the AI development again in the near future. D.-- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Durk, Please note that I never said that we didn't *have* any major new features. The major difference between previous years and this year was that we didn't have *obvious* eye catchers. Every feature you mention is really a great improvement, but they are not sufficiently salient to be noticeable for the casual visitor who spends maybe 5 seconds looking at our setup before deciding to stay any longer of keep moving. Not in the sense of -lets say- an aerotowing demo, or a 10-screen computer. The features you mention are relevant for the visitor who is already interested, but not sufficient as an eye-catcher. Sorry, I don't want to talk down on the great job you guys are doing in presenting all this, I'm just trying to understand what it is you consider an eye-catcher. I'm just a bit mystified that somehow a feature which dominated our screenshot contest doesn't count in this department... Also, everything on Thorsten's lists is things that FS-X does, or has done even for some time. Maybe not as good (but maybe better) as our solutions, but again, that's no help for catching people's initial attention. Well, yes and no - even if we're just catching up in graphics to what others do (which in many cases we probably do, judging by screenshot googling), isn't the fact that a scene no longer looks like 10 years behind what others do somehow relevant? It might not act so much as catch attention than to prevent immediate turn-aways... Cheers, * Thorsten -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:48:27 +0100 Durk Talsma wrote: On a more general note, the latter argument makes it really difficult to convince these people that FlightGear might be worth considering. I've also gotten a few questions about whether there would be commercial add-ons for FlightGear, and the fact that there isn't any need for them doesn't convince these people at all. Anyway, its a tricky problem and it make me realize that I wasn't born to be a salesman. :-) Nor me... I have to say though that short of using con tricks or hypnosis, in my experience you will _never_ convince this category of people as they've already made up their minds and don't want to change them. I also strongly suspect that even supposing you did, these same people would be more trouble than they're worth - I am pretty sure they'd be the ones complaining vociferously in the forums about how pathetic and broken this or that is, and put zero effort into actually fixing or building things themselves. It's definitely worth putting effort into promotion of FG, I'm sure the vast majority of FSX (and probably X-Plane) users have almost no idea of what it is or is capable of and there are bound to be quite a lot who would make good contributors, particularly when they see how fantastically open-ended and flexible FG is... AJ -- -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Thorsten, On 07 Nov 2012, at 10:55, Renk Thorsten wrote: Sorry, I don't want to talk down on the great job you guys are doing in presenting all this, I'm just trying to understand what it is you consider an eye-catcher. I'm just a bit mystified that somehow a feature which dominated our screenshot contest doesn't count in this department... No worries. :-). This is actually fairly subjective, and I'm afraid that I didn't explain my concern too well in my initial post. The real issue is salience, which you can describe as the subjective property of a percept to stand out from it's environment (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salience_(neuroscience) ). So, a cool feature that easily dominates in a screenshot contest may not be able to capture our attention very effectively in a different context, such as the one at FSWeekend, where visitors are usually bombarded with high quality graphics. So, what I was actually looking for was new ways of *using* FlightGear, within the limitations of an internet-free environment. Our lan based multiplayer server was very effiective in the past, and in the last few years we also had some new aircraft and/or a specific theme, or even an internet connection, all of which served as great eye-catchers. This year was a bit of a step back in those respects, so I found myself more often than not reverting back to the tested and tried. Well, yes and no - even if we're just catching up in graphics to what others do (which in many cases we probably do, judging by screenshot googling), isn't the fact that a scene no longer looks like 10 years behind what others do somehow relevant? It might not act so much as catch attention than to prevent immediate turn-aways... Of course it is, and in many cases it does keep visitors attention a bit longer, usually because they don't know what they're exactly looking at. :-) Cheers, Durk -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, AJ MacLeod wrote: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:48:27 +0100 Durk Talsma wrote: It's definitely worth putting effort into promotion of FG, I'm sure the vast majority of FSX (and probably X-Plane) users have almost no idea of what it is or is capable of and there are bound to be quite a lot who would make good contributors, particularly when they see how fantastically open-ended and flexible FG is... I really like the idea of getting Saitek to include a copy of FlightGear with their products. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Durk Talsma wrote: Hi Thorsten, So, what I was actually looking for was new ways of *using* FlightGear, within the limitations of an internet-free environment. Our lan based multiplayer server was very effiective in the past, and in the last few years we also had some new aircraft and/or a specific theme, or even an internet connection, all of which served as great eye-catchers. This year was a bit of a step back in those respects, so I found myself more often than not reverting back to the tested and tried. Durk, if you can find someone that's willing to cut the parts for you, I'd be happy to donate a drawing set for my single-seat collimated display system. You show up next year with THAT and I can just about guarantee most folks will forget how to spell FSX. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Durk, I don't know: FS-X can really impress: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViCj0uqeco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViCj0uqecofeature=related feature=related Lots of wow! While we can do some, or perhaps even most of this, we can't do it at an acceptable frame rate. (Er . can FS-X?) We have this in FG: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57645542/switcher.png We have all manner of road and rail vehicles available. I'd love to get it them into action someday. Vivian From: Durk Talsma [mailto:durkt...@gmail.com] Sent: 07 November 2012 10:22 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012... Hi Thorsten, On 07 Nov 2012, at 10:55, Renk Thorsten wrote: Sorry, I don't want to talk down on the great job you guys are doing in presenting all this, I'm just trying to understand what it is you consider an eye-catcher. I'm just a bit mystified that somehow a feature which dominated our screenshot contest doesn't count in this department... No worries. :-). This is actually fairly subjective, and I'm afraid that I didn't explain my concern too well in my initial post. The real issue is salience, which you can describe as the subjective property of a percept to stand out from it's environment (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salience_(neuroscience) ). So, a cool feature that easily dominates in a screenshot contest may not be able to capture our attention very effectively in a different context, such as the one at FSWeekend, where visitors are usually bombarded with high quality graphics. So, what I was actually looking for was new ways of *using* FlightGear, within the limitations of an internet-free environment. Our lan based multiplayer server was very effiective in the past, and in the last few years we also had some new aircraft and/or a specific theme, or even an internet connection, all of which served as great eye-catchers. This year was a bit of a step back in those respects, so I found myself more often than not reverting back to the tested and tried. Well, yes and no - even if we're just catching up in graphics to what others do (which in many cases we probably do, judging by screenshot googling), isn't the fact that a scene no longer looks like 10 years behind what others do somehow relevant? It might not act so much as catch attention than to prevent immediate turn-aways... Of course it is, and in many cases it does keep visitors attention a bit longer, usually because they don't know what they're exactly looking at. :-) Cheers, Durk -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
adding to what Gene said; first, we have the warping code developed and running in FG-2.6 for a collimated display system. second, we also run fgfs on a multi-core machine with three graphics cards. Performance is around 50-60 fps for each core. and thanks to Jan Comans the 3d clouds are sync aross all three displays. The 737 setup is way too large to haul to a trade show, but a single seat system is doable. John - Original Message - From: geneb ge...@deltasoft.com To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 7:31:23 AM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012... On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Durk Talsma wrote: Hi Thorsten, So, what I was actually looking for was new ways of *using* FlightGear, within the limitations of an internet-free environment. Our lan based multiplayer server was very effiective in the past, and in the last few years we also had some new aircraft and/or a specific theme, or even an internet connection, all of which served as great eye-catchers. This year was a bit of a step back in those respects, so I found myself more often than not reverting back to the tested and tried. Durk, if you can find someone that's willing to cut the parts for you, I'd be happy to donate a drawing set for my single-seat collimated display system. You show up next year with THAT and I can just about guarantee most folks will forget how to spell FSX. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Le 07/11/2012 10:55, Renk Thorsten a écrit : Sorry, I don't want to talk down on the great job you guys are doing in presenting all this, I'm just trying to understand what it is you consider an eye-catcher. I'm just a bit mystified that somehow a feature which dominated our screenshot contest doesn't count in this department... Hi Thorsten, I did run Fred's rembrandt along with your beautifull skies and lights for two days. The PC was finaly well tunned and all settings were at max, running as smooth as desirable. Some scenarii showing advantageous places and weather patterns ought to be prepared and projected on the big screen on the wall. But rembrandt was running on a single screen PC, and without preparation but the tunning of the machine... at a 3 meters in distance it is very difficult to appreciate that this is way above other screens in quality. You need to wear your glasses and stick your noze on the screen to see that it runs with a 200 km visibility. There are a mere 600 screens in this place, an awfull noise, pple everywhere and the gem was lost in the middle of this big mess. The eye catcher is not the gem, but things you see, and notice, from a distance, like a huge flag with free writen on it. All the best, Alexis -- Quand le dernier poisson sera pêché, l'homme se rendra compte que l'argent n'est pas comestible (proverbe indien) -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Gene (and John), On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:31, geneb wrote: Durk, if you can find someone that's willing to cut the parts for you, I'd be happy to donate a drawing set for my single-seat collimated display system. You show up next year with THAT and I can just about guarantee most folks will forget how to spell FSX. :) First of all, I think that this would be an incredibly cool idea! Let me think about the practical issues. It depends on the exact type of cutting that needs to be done, but I might know somebody capable of doing that. An old friend of mine from my high school days has started his own construction and repair shop. He's mainly working in the agricultural sector, but also doing some machine construction. If there is a fit between what we need and what he can deliver, it might be an option to consider asking him to cut some parts for us. Cheers, Durk -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Durk Talsma wrote: No worries. :-). This is actually fairly subjective, and I'm afraid that I didn't explain my concern too well in my initial post. The real issue is salience, which you can describe as the subjective property of a percept to stand out from it's environment (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salience_(neuroscience) ). So, a cool feature that easily dominates in a screenshot contest may not be able to capture our attention very effectively in a different context, such as the one at FSWeekend, where visitors are usually bombarded with high quality graphics. So, what I was actually looking for was new ways of *using* FlightGear, within the limitations of an internet-free environment. Our lan based multiplayer server was very effiective in the past, and in the last few years we also had some new aircraft and/or a specific theme, or even an internet connection, all of which served as great eye-catchers. This year was a bit of a step back in those respects, so I found myself more often than not reverting back to the tested and tried. Only slightly exaggerating, there are two types of people at FSWeekend: those who have never even heard about FG before, and those who have faintly heard about it, but never actually used or seen it ;-). So, presenting FG really needs to start with the very basic stuff: what is FG, where do I get it, how much does it cost ;-), how is it different/better etc. People also ask questions like Can I reuse the FSx addons which I already bought, will my hardware devices work, etc. So, presenting FG is not so much a matter of concentrating on the latest development gimmicks - like we would do in a newsletter or release announcement for people who already know FG. It's more about explaining and showing how it looks/feels in general. But of course, *all* the nice features inside FG and all the nice aircraft absolutely help with demonstrating FG to an interested visitor and help making a good overall impression, so that people will actually remember FG when back home - and start downloading. I agree with Durk, maybe we have been a bit less effective this year in making people stop and look. And until people actually pay attention, it doesn't even matter what's on the screens at all (FG, Rembrandt or just random pixels :) ). As you can see on the photos, there are loads of tables at FSWeekend. Each has a computer with 1-3 displays. In that respect, our booth may not have looked different enough this year. Last year, the 10 display (or 12 displays for LinuxTag :) ) worked pretty well as an eye catcher - causing almost everyone passing to go WTF!?? Brain-to-feet: full stop!! Brain-to-eyes: Check it out! What is this??. It also worked well as an ice-breaker: people would immediately start asking questions How do you connect these? How many machines are running these? How much power does it draw... ;-) So, I really hate to say it, but there really is something about marketing. Or, to go with Durk: there really is something about psychology: to get people's attention, it takes more than a good product alone... ;-) On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, geneb wrote: Durk, if you can find someone that's willing to cut the parts for you, I'd be happy to donate a drawing set for my single-seat collimated display system. You show up next year with THAT and I can just about guarantee most folks will forget how to spell FSX. :) Yay! That would *definitely* trigger a major visitor stampede! ;-) cheers, Thorsten -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Durk Talsma wrote: Hi Gene (and John), On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:31, geneb wrote: Durk, if you can find someone that's willing to cut the parts for you, I'd be happy to donate a drawing set for my single-seat collimated display system. You show up next year with THAT and I can just about guarantee most folks will forget how to spell FSX. :) First of all, I think that this would be an incredibly cool idea! Let me think about the practical issues. It depends on the exact type of cutting that needs to be done, but I might know somebody capable of doing that. An old friend of mine from my high school days has started his own construction and repair shop. He's mainly working in the agricultural sector, but also doing some machine construction. If there is a fit between what we need and what he can deliver, it might be an option to consider asking him to cut some parts for us. The parts are a mix of 12mm and 18mm and are optmized for 4x8 sheets of material. The screen frame needs to be cut with a 1/8 bit due to the slots required for the blades that help define the shape of the screen. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Durk and the FSWeekend crew! Firstly, thanks very much to everyone for flying the FG flag at FSWeekend. I can appreciate it's a huge amount of work each year. Great also to see a Scottish contingent. I'm still hoping to make it some time, and have been laying the groundwork early for next year... Re: Saitek - who was it you spoke to? I've been in contact with Martin Crompton, who kindly provided me with their Cessna line of controllers to write configuration files for FG with. I noticed in Thorsten B's flickr stream a comment about support for multiple graphics cards, which FS-X doesn't have. One of the things I've been struggling with when marketing FG in FSBreak etc. is really understanding what features we have that FS-X lacks so I can draw a good comparison. I come across some while reading flight sim websites, but I'm sure there are other limitations that only someone with experience of both would be able to highlight. Does anyone on the list have significant FS-X experience and could give me a list? Finally, on your multi-display/multi-graphics card setup, are you able to run with 3D clouds and do they look acceptable? I've been assuming that provided you are only running a single FG instance, the 3D clouds should Just Work with multiple displays. Is that the case? -Stuart -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hi Stuart, On 06 Nov 2012, at 14:00, Stuart Buchanan wrote: Hi Durk and the FSWeekend crew! Firstly, thanks very much to everyone for flying the FG flag at FSWeekend. I can appreciate it's a huge amount of work each year. Great also to see a Scottish contingent. I'm still hoping to make it some time, and have been laying the groundwork early for next year... Thanks. Please consider coming over next year. It's always great to meet the people behind the project. I'm trying to give a few quick answers below. Re: Saitek - who was it you spoke to? I've been in contact with Martin Crompton, who kindly provided me with their Cessna line of controllers to write configuration files for FG with. Yes, I also talked to Martin Crompton. James told me later on that you had been in touch with him. My action was rather spontaneous, so I asked him whether we could try to support Saitek products, without me knowing that you were also working on it. I hope we can join forces. I got their radiostack to try, and this looks like it's going to be a little more involved, since it may need its own USB driver. I'll try to send Martin just a quick note later tonight. I noticed in Thorsten B's flickr stream a comment about support for multiple graphics cards, which FS-X doesn't have. One of the things I've been struggling with when marketing FG in FSBreak etc. is really understanding what features we have that FS-X lacks so I can draw a good comparison. I come across some while reading flight sim websites, but I'm sure there are other limitations that only someone with experience of both would be able to highlight. Does anyone on the list have significant FS-X experience and could give me a list? This is always a tricky one. At FSWeekend I found our visitor's reception of the project really quite different, ranging from Increadibly cool that you do all of this by yourself to Give me one good reason why I should change from FSX. The former is always a nice way of starting a conversation (and usually runs into a situation where our visitors hang around our booth for an hour or so), while the latter feels oftentimes like a waste of effort. This is probably also because the people asking the latter type of question don't strike me as the persons who really have a fine-tuned for the subtleties of aviation that makes FlightGear such a cool program. So, the bottom-line is that I would also be very interested in a short concise list of features that we do better than FSX. Finally, on your multi-display/multi-graphics card setup, are you able to run with 3D clouds and do they look acceptable? I've been assuming that provided you are only running a single FG instance, the 3D clouds should Just Work with multiple displays. Is that the case? I do need to investigate a little more, because my machine was overall running quite slow. The other folks suggested that this might either be related to power-supply issues, or insufficient cooling. But, enabling or disabling the clouds didn't seem to make that much of a difference. Cheers, Durk -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On 6 Nov 2012, at 21:16, Durk Talsma wrote: Yes, I also talked to Martin Crompton. James told me later on that you had been in touch with him. My action was rather spontaneous, so I asked him whether we could try to support Saitek products, without me knowing that you were also working on it. I hope we can join forces. I got their radiostack to try, and this looks like it's going to be a little more involved, since it may need its own USB driver. I'll try to send Martin just a quick note later tonight. I had a quick look, and it's going to be tricky to support the part without some docs, since on Windows everything happens through a custom driver. On the other hand, if they support X-plane (they don't mention if they do) they will need something else - their current driver is really an MSFS plug-in I think. This is always a tricky one. At FSWeekend I found our visitor's reception of the project really quite different, ranging from Increadibly cool that you do all of this by yourself to Give me one good reason why I should change from FSX. The former is always a nice way of starting a conversation (and usually runs into a situation where our visitors hang around our booth for an hour or so), while the latter feels oftentimes like a waste of effort. This is probably also because the people asking the latter type of question don't strike me as the persons who really have a fine-tuned for the subtleties of aviation that makes FlightGear such a cool program. So, the bottom-line is that I would also be very interested in a short concise list of features that we do better than FSX. Amongst the many small tweaks I want for next year, is some nicely printed materials (in Dutch! and English) with some FAQs: is this MSFS? No, it's flightgear, it runs on Linux and Mac too.. How much does it cost? Nothing, you can download it from Are you using a Matrox TripleHead2Go? No, we support multiple views, video-cards and cameras Can I use aircraft or scenery from MSFS? No, but you can maybe convert them Can it talk to my joystick / some other thing? You get the idea :) Regards, James -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Ok, silly idea, but it might just work. You could try to install the drivers in a wineprefix and reroute the traffic to the usb device on the linux side so that the stream of data gets logged somewhere? Regards, Alessandro From: zakal...@mac.com Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 22:44:51 + To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012... On 6 Nov 2012, at 21:16, Durk Talsma wrote: Yes, I also talked to Martin Crompton. James told me later on that you had been in touch with him. My action was rather spontaneous, so I asked him whether we could try to support Saitek products, without me knowing that you were also working on it. I hope we can join forces. I got their radiostack to try, and this looks like it's going to be a little more involved, since it may need its own USB driver. I'll try to send Martin just a quick note later tonight. I had a quick look, and it's going to be tricky to support the part without some docs, since on Windows everything happens through a custom driver. On the other hand, if they support X-plane (they don't mention if they do) they will need something else - their current driver is really an MSFS plug-in I think. This is always a tricky one. At FSWeekend I found our visitor's reception of the project really quite different, ranging from Increadibly cool that you do all of this by yourself to Give me one good reason why I should change from FSX. The former is always a nice way of starting a conversation (and usually runs into a situation where our visitors hang around our booth for an hour or so), while the latter feels oftentimes like a waste of effort. This is probably also because the people asking the latter type of question don't strike me as the persons who really have a fine-tuned for the subtleties of aviation that makes FlightGear such a cool program. So, the bottom-line is that I would also be very interested in a short concise list of features that we do better than FSX. Amongst the many small tweaks I want for next year, is some nicely printed materials (in Dutch! and English) with some FAQs: is this MSFS? No, it's flightgear, it runs on Linux and Mac too.. How much does it cost? Nothing, you can download it from Are you using a Matrox TripleHead2Go? No, we support multiple views, video-cards and cameras Can I use aircraft or scenery from MSFS? No, but you can maybe convert them Can it talk to my joystick / some other thing? You get the idea :) Regards, James -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Durk Talsma wrote: Yes, I also talked to Martin Crompton. James told me later on that you had been in touch with him. My action was rather spontaneous, so I asked him whether we could try to support Saitek products, without me knowing that you were also working on it. I hope we can join forces. I got their radiostack to try, and this looks like it's going to be a little more involved, since it may need its own USB driver. I'll try to send Martin just a quick note later tonight. If you do email him, feel free to CC me and mention we're on the same project. I've not done any more than write XML config for their Cessna yoke, pedals, trim wheel and throttle quadrant, so we're definitely not duplicating work. It would be great if we can support this sort of hardware out-of-the-box, and a good thing for Saitek too I think. RE: Curt's comment about selling hardware. Turning it 180 degrees, I had wondered whether Saitek might want to bundle FG with their controllers as a matter of course. The cost to them would simply be DVD. This is always a tricky one. At FSWeekend I found our visitor's reception of the project really quite different, ranging from Increadibly cool that you do all of this by yourself to Give me one good reason why I should change from FSX. The former is always a nice way of starting a conversation (and usually runs into a situation where our visitors hang around our booth for an hour or so), while the latter feels oftentimes like a waste of effort. This is probably also because the people asking the latter type of question don't strike me as the persons who really have a fine-tuned for the subtleties of aviation that makes FlightGear such a cool program. So, the bottom-line is that I would also be very interested in a short concise list of features that we do better than FSX. Yes, I've encountered exactly the same reaction when demoing FG elsewhere. Fundamentally, this is a question we should have a very compelling answer for, but which it's difficult to pin down. The FS-X community is going to have to move to other platforms in the next couple of years. The obvious candidates are Prepare3D (which has a rather odd license) or X-Plane. IMO we should be the third choice here. Let me see if I can get some answers out of the forums. I think there are lots of people there who have used other sims. Finally, on your multi-display/multi-graphics card setup, are you able to run with 3D clouds and do they look acceptable? I've been assuming that provided you are only running a single FG instance, the 3D clouds should Just Work with multiple displays. Is that the case? I do need to investigate a little more, because my machine was overall running quite slow. The other folks suggested that this might either be related to power-supply issues, or insufficient cooling. But, enabling or disabling the clouds didn't seem to make that much of a difference. So you at least had the 3D clouds running across multiple monitors without major graphical artifacts? That's good to know. -Stuart -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, TDO Brandano wrote: Ok, silly idea, but it might just work. You could try to install the drivers in a wineprefix and reroute the traffic to the usb device on the linux side so that the stream of data gets logged somewhere? I think the smarter path, providing Saitek won't provide documentation is to use a USB Bus Pirate on it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
presenting something drastically new every year. But this year the new essence seemed to be missing somewhat. I didn't really feel that we had any major innovations to show (with the notable exception of project rembrandt, which ran well on Alexis' machine). With our multiscreen setups, we were somewhat limited in terms of graphics capabilities, and I also didn't feel that there were a lot of exciting new aircraft to demonstrate. If I'm not much mistaken, during the last year we got (in addition to Rembrandt): * atmospheric light scattering * regional texturing * placement masks for random objects * procedural texturing * Canvas with all the goodies for HUDs and MFDs and the GUI Surely there must be something in this list which qualifies as major innovation? Surely this is not _all_ my personal bias that I like certain features? :-) * Thorsten -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Hey Thorsten et al, Yeah, I guess it's time for some further impressions of FSWeekend from my perspective. This year was our 7th consecutive presentation, and the first time we had a presentation that was considerably scaled down compared to our previous tradition of growing in size every year. Though I think it's okay to throttle back a little, every once in a while, it did mean that our prominence was a little less present this year. This is something we probably need to consider for next year. Let me come back to that at the end of this post; first some impressions. My pictures are are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/durktalsma/sets/72157631936384731/ As the Pictures show, Martin, Mathias, James, and myself started out on Friday with a 4-hour session at the full-motion simulator at simcenter (http://simcenter.nl/) lelystad Airport. Gijs also made some with my camera, but I haven't had the chance to process those yet. Yes, there are some rumors. Firstly, yes we did hijack the main projection screen in the uiverzaal, and yes a broomstick was involved. Secondly, there are some rumors that people may have seen a person walking around with a Curt Olson name-tag. Rumors also have it that the person carrying it spoke with a rapid Scottish accent. So, what's up with the projector/broomstick rumor? Well, despite my good intentions, I wasn't as well prepared as I had thought. I did bring my computer, a projector, and a screen. But, as we were setting up, I had realized that I had forgotten to bring the pole that is holding the screen up, making the entire exercise rather useless. In order to find a replacement, I tried borrowing a broomstick from the museum. Although that would have worked, we couldn't borrow it for the entire weekend. While we were contemplating our next move, Frans offered us to use the big screen. I hope that none of the other clubs took offense, because the screen was rather big. Secondly, by the time I had to register for the booth, Curt and I were discussing ways that would enable it for him to visit. With the deadline in sight, I did decide to go ahead and register Curt. But in the end, the travel plans didn't work out and in the mean time I had gotten an email from James Turner showing his interest in participating, but that was already after the registration deadline. So with one spare badge and one person without a badge, we decided that James should pretend he'd be Curt during the course of the show. I think that it worked out pretty well :-) So, compared to the previous years, a number of things were a little different. A few of our regular members couldn't make it this year, including Torsten, Jorg and Lindsey, Hans (but thanks for briefly stopping by Hans!), and even Gijs had to bail out on sunday. Their absence was offset by the presence of James Turner, Christian Schmitt, and Alexis Bory. It was a joy having you guys around! I hope you can make it to FSWeekend again sometime. Although in general I'm looking back at a fun weekend, I also have to admit that I've had some reservations about the event -and our presentation- that I feel I need to share as well. As mentioned above, this was the 7th time we were there and in those 7 years the format of FSWeekend hasn't really changed much. Most of the presenters are regulars and they seem to be doing exactly the same thing as in previous years. With FlightGear, I usually felt that we managed to escape that, by presenting something drastically new every year. But this year the new essence seemed to be missing somewhat. I didn't really feel that we had any major innovations to show (with the notable exception of project rembrandt, which ran well on Alexis' machine). With our multiscreen setups, we were somewhat limited in terms of graphics capabilities, and I also didn't feel that there were a lot of exciting new aircraft to demonstrate. Now, I want to emphasize that this was largely due to our personal situations, and nobody is to blame (if anybody, perhaps myself, because I was really late an a little lazy in organizing this year). So, despite our good intentions, not everything came about as intended, and I would like to consider possible ways of smoothing that out in a better way. But, to end on a positive note: We also met a lot of fabulous new people again. In addition to James's, Christian's, and Alexis's presence, I met Rob de Vries, who run the newssite www.simflight.nl, Gijs was interviewed for PCPilot, and we established contact with the folks at Saitek, which may hopefully result in full FlightGear support for their Pro line of products. We're still working out the details, but they gave me a copy of their radio stack for play with, and if we get that to work, more stuff may follow. So, to conclude, it was a fun weekend, but for next year I would like to come up with a slightly more organized plan of approach. Cheers, Durk On 04 Nov 2012, at
[Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
... is already over now, unfortunately. For those who couldn't attend but are interested in what it was like (make sure to join next year!), here are some photos showing the event and FlightGear booth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/70866411@N05/sets/72157631926925511/detail/ More details are probably to follow (maybe Durk will explain how he managed to reserve the hall's huge main projection screen exclusively for FlightGear - and how a silly broomstick is connected... :-) ). Thanks to every attending this year! Yet again, it's been a lot of fun :). cheers, Thorsten -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
... is already over now, unfortunately. For those who couldn't attend but are interested in what it was like (make sure to join next year!), here are some photos showing the event and FlightGear booth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/70866411@N05/sets/72157631926925511/detail / More details are probably to follow (maybe Durk will explain how he managed to reserve the hall's huge main projection screen exclusively for FlightGear - and how a silly broomstick is connected... :-) ). Thanks to every attending this year! Yet again, it's been a lot of fun :). cheers, Thorsten Did you run into Austin Meyer (X-Plane)? Jon -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Am 04.11.2012 20:39, schrieb Jon S. Berndt: Did you run into Austin Meyer (X-Plane)? No, he was there last year to promote his latest release, but I'm not aware that he attended this year. (There were rumours someone had seen a Curtis Olson at the event, but that is yet another story...;-) ). cheers, Thorsten -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FSWeekend 2012...
Those rumors would definitely be interesting! On Nov 4, 2012 3:28 PM, ThorstenB bre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 04.11.2012 20:39, schrieb Jon S. Berndt: Did you run into Austin Meyer (X-Plane)? No, he was there last year to promote his latest release, but I'm not aware that he attended this year. (There were rumours someone had seen a Curtis Olson at the event, but that is yet another story...;-) ). cheers, Thorsten -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
