Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-21 Thread Nathanael Rebsch

Hi,

Second thought - would it be possible to setup a 'moderation' team to 
monitor the chat on the server in (semi) regular intervals? i could 
imagine if there were a bridge between the servers and irc that you 
would get a few people volunteering to join.
say this bridge merely bridges chat, and allowes the 'moderators' on irc 
to chat back, chat privately, and kick.


I believe the automation is quite nice, however does not compensate for 
good administration ;-)


greets
Nathanael

On 10/21/2010 12:54 AM, Scott Hamilton wrote:

On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 22:21 +, Martin Spott wrote:

Scott Hamilton wrote:
  On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 21:02 +, Martin Spott wrote:

  Whenever/whatever people are going to do about adding authentication
  support to MP servers, if they'd consider adding an interface which is
  capable of talking to an LDAP directory service (inetOrgPerson LDAP
  Object Class would be minimum requirement), then I'd offer to install
  and maintain the _technical_ part of the authentication backend (but
  I'll most certainly leave the organizational role to someone else  ;-)

  While we are talking about Authentication, I'd really like to see a
  federated authentication mechanism such as SAML or OpenID. Having direct
  access to an LDAP server just feels like it a bad idea in the long term,
  either by scalability/capacity or by opening up access rights.

I've been making this offer because I'm familiar with the software, the
technique involved, its benefits in general, its versatility in
particular, its quirks as well as scalability concerns.

If people feel like biasing decisions by shouting each other down, then
I'm happily going to observe the process as a spectator.

Have fun,
Martin.
 


  Martin,

 I'm sorry if you feel I have shouted you down, that wasn't my 
intention at all with my reply.
 I was expressing my long-term concern about direct access to a 
LDAP server. I wanted this to highlight the need to think about the 
consequences and think about how it would meet future capacity 
requirements.
 My reply was intended to extend your idea of a single identity, 
by using middleware components to distribute or federate that 
identity, not to downgrade the idea, I'm sorry if it wasn't taken in 
way in this open forum.



Scott.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Jack Mermod
 Would it be possible to start logging and saving (and publishing) MP
 messages somewhere so a person with a grievance would have some hard
 evidence to show what happened.  Right now when push comes to shove,  
 we are
 in a he said/she said situation.  But if we logged every message  
 + call
 sign + ip address we could go back and review situations.   
 Certainly it's
 possible the grieved party might have said something initially that  
 was more
 controversial than they remember and started the situation  
 degenerating into
 something worse than it would have been.  Certainly it's possible that
 comments would be misinterpreted.  We could also passively collect  
 some
 stats on what portion of messages contain possibly offending  
 language or
 what specific call signs might have unusually high percentages of  
 matching
 words.  Not initially to use for enforcement, but just to review the  
 true
 nature of the situation so we can make a more informed decision as  
 to if we
 have a real problem that needs to be addressed, or not ... ?

 I understand that data free discussions are the most fun, but if  
 we logged
 and published MP messages, we could do some statistical analysis on  
 all the
 conversations, and we would also have specific cases we could review  
 to
 determine if there really is a problem or not.  I'd hate to spend 6  
 months
 developing an authentication system because one idiot one time said
 something stupid and it never happened again.  But if stuff happens
 regularly, or if there are regular offenders, perhaps we would be  
 wise to
 think more carefully about developing mechanisms to deal with it.


Hi Curt,
I'm sure that I am not the first person on the receiving end of 
 
trash on mp. I have seen pilots attacked before, and the the best  
thing I could do was notify the recipient of the ignore function,  
which works good as a defense after an attack has taken place. I don't  
think we need anything too advanced, but some sort of preventative  
measure is necessary to keep a calm, welcoming multiplayer  
environment. I think that storing chat logs would be a good start. I  
don't know that the logs would have to be stored publicly, though.  
Possibly we could set up a email such as ab...@flightgear.org, where  
pilots could email a report in that specifies the time and other  
details about the abuse that took place. The report handler could then  
go to the chat log, jump to the time that the abuse occurred at, and  
read the logs until they come across the abusive messages. They could  
then identify the sender of those messages by their IP, and block that  
IP from connecting to the server network. This wouldn't be as  
complicated as a account system, but just as effective.

I would also like to thank everybody for showing that they care. I can  
already tell that we are going to make much greater progress than I  
would have on the forums. I am really glad that everybody is willing  
to get to a solution and compromise on what we can do to make  
flightgear as great as possible.

Semper Fi,
Jack


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Francesco Angelo Brisa
just a small idea:

why can't we use the flightgear phpbb forum accounts ?

we already have a table containing users/emails/md5 passwords. the server
could check for an user/password against this table (ok, not with a direct
connection to the mysql db, but calling an ad-hoc php page that verifies
username/password for us using a simple http request.).

this would be quite easy to do. and would be easy to kick an account if
someone is bad behaving.

my 2 cents

cheers
Francesco
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[Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Jörg Emmerich
As a guy who gets insulted about every second day while trying to
enforce proper ATC onto everybody approaching EDDF I surely would
support a system which could solve that problem - if I just had the
slightest idea how to overcome the following questions:

# How can we avoid that somebody (who believes he is the good guy)
reacts in a manner, that just escalates the problem - maybe he even
tries to shoot the opponent down? What is worse: The first words of
kids stuff or an escalating response?

# I am no lawyer, so: Could you really win in court if somebody insults
you - and you responded or even escalated -- although you could stop
that whole attack just by a little mouse-click into the PilotList?

# I hope we agree at least, that MP should always act worldwide - and
nobody is forbidden to type or talk in any language - what dictionary or
so could you use to define how big the problem is we all have?

# How do you handle spoken attacks via FGCOM? Translate via Festival and
then make a literal compare?

# If you implement a grading system: How can you avoid that some bad
guys group together and downgrade good guys - maybe just for fun? I
am pretty sure ATCs could be a good target for such combined minus
ratings. What happens if somebody gets downgraded and finally be locked
out? Can he go to court and say I did not!?

# To my knowledge it is just about impossible today to define a person
by IP: Multi-usage by many people, DNS changing IP NR every day, WLANS,
etc. Even the police do have big problems to define a person by IP --
they need special court-orders for checking the providers-list (at least
in Europe!).

# Would you even be allowed to keep a rating system on your serves that
keeps track of personal behavior? If so in US - also worldwide?? And
if so: Who is allowed to look into that??

So quite frankly, i do not see any possibility to do something like this
without a very huge overload of administration (and constant costs - and
undefined legal problems - worldwide!).

So really I do only see one solution: Lets all try to be paragons -- and
reduce the problem! I do not see any solution to prevent it completely!
Not even if we had unlimited resources available! 

I am really glade I do not have to decide on that.
joe




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Martin Spott
Curtis Olson wrote:

 Another thought.  I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system with
 user id's and passwords, self registration, [...]
   ^

To be honest, I'd expect those who deliberately are being rude will
just create a new account after they've been locked out. This requires
someone to perform continuous maintenance on the system.
If you/we are really serious about setting up an authentication system,
then there's probably no other suitable means expect from introducing
some initial test/exam   which, as well, requires a huge effort to
set up and maintain. That would be a project on its own.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Curtis Olson
It would not be dissimilar from the forum, or the wiki or any other CMS.
 All those systems need to deal with user management and authentication, and
as soon as the flightgear MP starts ruling the world, we'll probably see
spambots too.  Once we start attracting spammers then do we still consider
it a free world where a social solution and peer pressure is the best
option?  You are right though that it could be a large project.  On the
other hand, there is a lot of systems that do authentication ... maybe there
are some modules available that we could just plug in and use that wouldn't
require starting from scratch?

I'm not saying this is what we *should* do, I was merely suggesting that
it's a possible route we could take, and perhaps with some small tweaks to
the MP protocol we could easily support authenticated servers.

Would it be bad if a user had a choice between the open free for all we
currently have and a more constrained and managed system (that someone has
taken the time to build and continues to manage.)

Regards,

Curt.


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Martin Spott wrote:

 Curtis Olson wrote:

  Another thought.  I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system with
  user id's and passwords, self registration, [...]
   ^

 To be honest, I'd expect those who deliberately are being rude will
 just create a new account after they've been locked out. This requires
 someone to perform continuous maintenance on the system.
 If you/we are really serious about setting up an authentication system,
 then there's probably no other suitable means expect from introducing
 some initial test/exam   which, as well, requires a huge effort to
 set up and maintain. That would be a project on its own.

 Cheers,
Martin.
 --
  Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
 --


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http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/
http://www.flightgear.org -
http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/curt/http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/personal/curt/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Torsten Dreyer
   That stuff is unnecessary and in
 
  real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using
  foul language on the radio.
 
 Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a
 pretty good deterrent :).
When I had my first engine failure in RL, I remember not to have used correct 
wording when reporting to ATC. Instead of mayday mayday mayday - [callsign], 
engine failure, position, intention, blah, blah, I am sure my transmission 
started with sh__ ;-)


Torsten

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Mally
?How about two systems? An introductory/open system, and a second system 
available only to those people who have not abused the first?

(I won't go into practical details, it's just the basic idea I'm tentatively 
proposing. It could be a complete non-runner for fundamental reasons I'm not 
aware of)/.

Mally

- Original Message - 
From: Curtis Olson curtol...@gmail.com
To: FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers


 It would not be dissimilar from the forum, or the wiki or any other CMS.
 All those systems need to deal with user management and authentication, 
 and
 as soon as the flightgear MP starts ruling the world, we'll probably see
 spambots too.  Once we start attracting spammers then do we still consider
 it a free world where a social solution and peer pressure is the best
 option?  You are right though that it could be a large project.  On the
 other hand, there is a lot of systems that do authentication ... maybe 
 there
 are some modules available that we could just plug in and use that 
 wouldn't
 require starting from scratch?

 I'm not saying this is what we *should* do, I was merely suggesting that
 it's a possible route we could take, and perhaps with some small tweaks to
 the MP protocol we could easily support authenticated servers.

 Would it be bad if a user had a choice between the open free for all we
 currently have and a more constrained and managed system (that someone has
 taken the time to build and continues to manage.)

 Regards,

 Curt.


 On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Martin Spott wrote:

 Curtis Olson wrote:

  Another thought.  I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system 
  with
  user id's and passwords, self registration, [...]
   ^

 To be honest, I'd expect those who deliberately are being rude will
 just create a new account after they've been locked out. This requires
 someone to perform continuous maintenance on the system.
 If you/we are really serious about setting up an authentication system,
 then there's probably no other suitable means expect from introducing
 some initial test/exam   which, as well, requires a huge effort to
 set up and maintain. That would be a project on its own.

 Cheers,
Martin.
 --
  Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are 
 !
 --


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 http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/curt/http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/personal/curt/






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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Reagan Thomas
On 10/20/2010 7:39 AM, Curtis Olson wrote:
 It would not be dissimilar from the forum, or the wiki or any other 
 CMS.  All those systems need to deal with user management and 
 authentication, and as soon as the flightgear MP starts ruling the 
 world, we'll probably see spambots too.  Once we start attracting 
 spammers then do we still consider it a free world where a social 
 solution and peer pressure is the best option?  You are right though 
 that it could be a large project.  On the other hand, there is a lot 
 of systems that do authentication ... maybe there are some modules 
 available that we could just plug in and use that wouldn't require 
 starting from scratch?

 I'm not saying this is what we *should* do, I was merely suggesting 
 that it's a possible route we could take, and perhaps with some small 
 tweaks to the MP protocol we could easily support authenticated servers.

 Would it be bad if a user had a choice between the open free for all 
 we currently have and a more constrained and managed system (that 
 someone has taken the time to build and continues to manage.)

 Regards,

 Curt.


Since I'm pretty familiar with BZFlag, I'll use it as an example again.

It is a multiplayer game by design where anyone can host their own 
server and maps (worlds).  Each server can have its own rules about 
swearing (including custom word filtering or no word filtering) and what 
is or isn't considered abuse of others, but they all have one thing in 
common: Users are authenticated (or not) by a central server.  Their 
credentials are those of their BZFlag forum membership.

When a player tries to connect to a game server, the player's 
credentials go to the central server.  That server tells the game server 
that the player's authentication passed, failed or that the server 
doesn't know them.  Game servers can decide what to do with that 
information; most game servers refuse connection to an authentication 
failed player, but allow those that the server doesn't know (usually 
with reduced privileges).

The central server also hosts a global ban list that maintains banned 
IPs and/or callsigns.  Severe abusers are generally reported by 
individual game server admins or players to the benevolent dictators who 
maintain the central server.

Having central authentication in place allows for a trust mechanism to 
be implemented globally.  Allowing unregistered people to join in lets 
people try it out without the hassle of signing up, but with reduced 
privileges or ability to mess with other people.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Gijs de Rooy

Hi all, 

L Francesco wrote:

 why can't we use the flightgear phpbb forum accounts ?
 we already have a table containing users/emails/md5 passwords. the server 
 could check for an user/password against this 
 table (ok, not with a direct connection to the mysql db, but calling an 
 ad-hoc php page that verifies username/password for 
 us using a simple http request.).

That would certianly be possible, atleast on the forum side (I don't know about 
the MP system). The good thing about this idea
would be IMO that we can talk to people who bully/abuse/shout. Most people at 
the forum feel bad when they are contacted by
a mod after misbehaving. If they don't (and continue misbehaving), a ban is 
easily set up. Connecting multiplayer accounts to
forum accounts would make people more visible and thus (atleast I hope and 
think) make them think twice before doing 
something.

We would need one or two extra mods for this though.

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Nathanael Rebsch
Gene Buckle wrote:
 On Tue, 19 Oct 2010, Curtis Olson wrote:

   
 Oh dear ...

 http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary

 I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up
 with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete
 novice ...

 
 A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server.
   
snip

Implementing such a filter on the client side will open your eyes to the 
pitfalls of that quite quickly - i'll just compile fg myself, and apply 
a patch which disables such a filter - now what you want to do?

security by (client side) obscurity can be quite nice, but i really 
think at some point this has reached its limits.

Nathanael.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Stefan Seifert
On Wednesday 20 October 2010 18:57:05 Nathanael Rebsch wrote:

 Implementing such a filter on the client side will open your eyes to the
 pitfalls of that quite quickly - i'll just compile fg myself, and apply
 a patch which disables such a filter - now what you want to do?
 
 security by (client side) obscurity can be quite nice, but i really
 think at some point this has reached its limits.

If the filter is on the receiving end it doesn't matter. When someone wants to 
see all bad words, he may remove the filter. Anyway it would only affect 
himself.

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Nathanael Rebsch
Stefan Seifert wrote:
 On Wednesday 20 October 2010 18:57:05 Nathanael Rebsch wrote:

   
 Implementing such a filter on the client side will open your eyes to the
 pitfalls of that quite quickly - i'll just compile fg myself, and apply
 a patch which disables such a filter - now what you want to do?

 security by (client side) obscurity can be quite nice, but i really
 think at some point this has reached its limits.
 

 If the filter is on the receiving end it doesn't matter. When someone wants 
 to 
 see all bad words, he may remove the filter. Anyway it would only affect 
 himself.

 Stefan
In that case you bandwidth payload for no good reason.

Nathanael

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Stuart Buchanan


-Stuart

On 20 Oct 2010, at 18:10, Nathanael Rebsch nathan...@dihedral.de wrote:

 Stefan Seifert wrote:
 On Wednesday 20 October 2010 18:57:05 Nathanael Rebsch wrote:
 
 
 Implementing such a filter on the client side will open your eyes to the
 pitfalls of that quite quickly - i'll just compile fg myself, and apply
 a patch which disables such a filter - now what you want to do?
 
 security by (client side) obscurity can be quite nice, but i really
 think at some point this has reached its limits.
 
 
 If the filter is on the receiving end it doesn't matter. When someone wants 
 to 
 see all bad words, he may remove the filter. Anyway it would only affect 
 himself.
 
 Stefan
 In that case you bandwidth payload for no good reason.
 
 Nathanael
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Stuart Buchanan

On 20 Oct 2010, at 18:10, Nathanael Rebsch wrote:
 In that case you bandwidth payload for no good reason.
 
No worse than at present. As I said earlier, I would also put a filter on the 
sender to filter the casual profanity and make our expected standard of 
behaviour clear. 

IMO a filter is a very cheap partial solution with little downside. If I get 
the chance in the next couple of days I'll put one together. 

Stuart 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Nathanael Rebsch
Stuart Buchanan wrote:
 On 20 Oct 2010, at 18:10, Nathanael Rebsch wrote:
   
 In that case you bandwidth payload for no good reason.

 
 No worse than at present. As I said earlier, I would also put a filter on the 
 sender to filter the casual profanity and make our expected standard of 
 behaviour clear. 

 IMO a filter is a very cheap partial solution with little downside. If I get 
 the chance in the next couple of days I'll put one together. 

 Stuart 
   
Still, a solution solely on the server can be more easily tweaked, 
updated and taken care of in the case of bugs / issues.
which is not the case for clients unless they fetch a list from elsewhere.

personally i would vote for a system implemented on the servers. and in 
addition frequent moderation.

Nathanael

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Gene Buckle
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, Stuart Buchanan wrote:


 On 20 Oct 2010, at 18:10, Nathanael Rebsch wrote:
 In that case you bandwidth payload for no good reason.

 No worse than at present. As I said earlier, I would also put a filter on the 
 sender to filter the casual profanity and make our expected standard of 
 behaviour clear.

 IMO a filter is a very cheap partial solution with little downside. If I 
 get the chance in the next couple of days I'll put one together.

Nanny state, FTW. *sigh*

Filter on the client side, only.  Please.

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Scott Hamilton
On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 21:02 +, Martin Spott wrote:
 Curtis Olson wrote:
 
  Would it be bad if a user had a choice between the open free for all we
  currently have and a more constrained and managed system (that someone has
  taken the time to build and continues to manage.)
 
 No, offering multiple options to choose from is certainly not a bad
 idea.
 
 Whenever/whatever people are going to do about adding authentication
 support to MP servers, if they'd consider adding an interface which is
 capable of talking to an LDAP directory service (inetOrgPerson LDAP
 Object Class would be minimum requirement), then I'd offer to install
 and maintain the _technical_ part of the authentication backend (but
 I'll most certainly leave the organizational role to someone else  ;-)
 
 Cheers,
   Martin.

While we are talking about Authentication, I'd really like to see a
federated authentication mechanism such as SAML or OpenID. Having direct
access to an LDAP server just feels like it a bad idea in the long term,
either by scalability/capacity or by opening up access rights.

Federated authentication systems also come with self registration,
password reset, group management and other identity management
functions.

By using a federated authentication mechanism, it means the collection
of web sites we have would all have a single username/password, and it
would give us single-signon capabilities.

OpenID means we would could defer authentication to Google, Microsoft,
Yahoo and many other providers, and so we remove the scalability and
management issues with authentication. 

Using something like SAML would mean we would be our own authentication
provider, it is a slightly more managed federation of trust, we specify
who is in our federation and we run and manage that configuration.


Scott.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Martin Spott
Scott Hamilton wrote:
 On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 21:02 +, Martin Spott wrote:

 Whenever/whatever people are going to do about adding authentication
 support to MP servers, if they'd consider adding an interface which is
 capable of talking to an LDAP directory service (inetOrgPerson LDAP
 Object Class would be minimum requirement), then I'd offer to install
 and maintain the _technical_ part of the authentication backend (but
 I'll most certainly leave the organizational role to someone else  ;-)

 While we are talking about Authentication, I'd really like to see a
 federated authentication mechanism such as SAML or OpenID. Having direct
 access to an LDAP server just feels like it a bad idea in the long term,
 either by scalability/capacity or by opening up access rights.

I've been making this offer because I'm familiar with the software, the
technique involved, its benefits in general, its versatility in
particular, its quirks as well as scalability concerns.

If people feel like biasing decisions by shouting each other down, then
I'm happily going to observe the process as a spectator.

Have fun,
Martin.
-- 
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--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-20 Thread Scott Hamilton
On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 22:21 +, Martin Spott wrote:

 Scott Hamilton wrote:
  On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 21:02 +, Martin Spott wrote:
 
  Whenever/whatever people are going to do about adding authentication
  support to MP servers, if they'd consider adding an interface which is
  capable of talking to an LDAP directory service (inetOrgPerson LDAP
  Object Class would be minimum requirement), then I'd offer to install
  and maintain the _technical_ part of the authentication backend (but
  I'll most certainly leave the organizational role to someone else  ;-)
 
  While we are talking about Authentication, I'd really like to see a
  federated authentication mechanism such as SAML or OpenID. Having direct
  access to an LDAP server just feels like it a bad idea in the long term,
  either by scalability/capacity or by opening up access rights.
 
 I've been making this offer because I'm familiar with the software, the
 technique involved, its benefits in general, its versatility in
 particular, its quirks as well as scalability concerns.
 
 If people feel like biasing decisions by shouting each other down, then
 I'm happily going to observe the process as a spectator.
 
 Have fun,
   Martin.


  Martin,

 I'm sorry if you feel I have shouted you down, that wasn't my
intention at all with my reply.
 I was expressing my long-term concern about direct access to a LDAP
server. I wanted this to highlight the need to think about the
consequences and think about how it would meet future capacity
requirements. 
 My reply was intended to extend your idea of a single identity, by
using middleware components to distribute or federate that identity, not
to downgrade the idea, I'm sorry if it wasn't taken in way in this open
forum.


Scott.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Stuart Buchanan
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote:
 Hi Everybody,
 I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own
 business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I
 find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden
 Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to
 criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when
 you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using
 foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my
 house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!)
snip

I thought you were 24 (based on your forum profile)?

One fairly easy option would be to filter MP chat messages in nasal
based on a set
of unnacceptable words. We could do this on the receiving client and simply
not display such messages. I've been thinking this would be a good idea to
make the FG MP environment more child-friendly anyway.

I'd also be tempted to filter on the sending client as well, and not
allow a message
to be sent with such content. This would at least notify the sender of the
standard of language we expect, though they could bypass it fairly easily
if they hacked the Nasal.

Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty words. I
haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that this
must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve.

This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour.

-Stuart

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Curtis Olson
Oh dear ...

http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary

I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up
with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete
novice ...

Could we also filter at the MP server level?  It might be nice to filter at
the sending level so you could give the user some positive feedback if they
type something that won't get passed along.  But as imperfect (and possibly
entertaining) as any list would be, it might not be a bad idea to do some
basic screening of the more common words.  That stuff is unnecessary and in
real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using
foul language on the radio.

As with the rest of life, it's nice to run a 100% completely open and free
system, until a few idiots start abusing the privilege and then we are
forced to start clamping down. :-(

Another thought.  I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system with
user id's and passwords, self registration, captcha's, email verification,
etc.  Even more interesting if we want a distributed authentication system
on top of our distributed mp server system.  But if we could expand the MP
system to include a user id with the intent of eventually tying this to a
user account/authentication system, then we could flag and identify abusers.
 We might have some developers or participants who are really good at this
stuff and would love to setup a system???  If we developed it in parallel,
we could still have the current system running by default as we bring an
authenticated system on line.  Then we'd be able to determine if the
authenticated system works well, makes sense, helps address abuse, etc.  And
at some point when it's working well, we could cut over to it.  Or
individuals could make their own personal decision about which system to run
on (hopefully the tide would shift over to the authenticated system.)

Abuse could involve more than language or threats on the chat system.  It
might be worth slapping someone for leaving their AN-225 parked at the end
of 28R at SFO for 3 days straight or perhaps doing other things
intentionally to disrupt the realistic flight experience of others on the
system.

I know we have some good php/mysql jockies in this project ... I don't think
we need to be cryptographically secure in our system.  Just thinking out
loud here: maybe the mp server computes a random key of the day (16bit or
32bit random number).  You have to authenticate with user name/password to
get the key, and then there would be a slot in every output MP message from
your system for this key.  (This would all be handled internally to
FlightGear some how ... maybe you could set your username/password via
command line options or properties in the config file, or set them in a
dialog box and then they'd be saved in your autosave.xml file.)  Messages
that don't have the matching key would be silently discarded.  Sure this
could be hacked, but I think some basic simple levels of authentication
would take care of 99.99% of the riff raff.

Regards,

Curt.


On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote:
  Hi Everybody,
  I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own
  business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can
 I
  find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the
 Golden
  Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to
  criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when
  you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using
  foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my
  house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!)
 snip

 I thought you were 24 (based on your forum profile)?

 One fairly easy option would be to filter MP chat messages in nasal
 based on a set
 of unnacceptable words. We could do this on the receiving client and simply
 not display such messages. I've been thinking this would be a good idea to
 make the FG MP environment more child-friendly anyway.

 I'd also be tempted to filter on the sending client as well, and not
 allow a message
 to be sent with such content. This would at least notify the sender of the
 standard of language we expect, though they could bypass it fairly easily
 if they hacked the Nasal.

 Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty
 words. I
 haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that
 this
 must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve.

 This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour.

 -Stuart


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread syd adams
  That stuff is unnecessary and in
 real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using
 foul language on the radio.

Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a
pretty good deterrent :).

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Reagan Thomas
  On 10/19/2010 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote:
 Hi Everybody,
 I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own
 business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I
 find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden
 Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to
 criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when
 you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using
 foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my
 house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!)
 snip
 [...]

 Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty words. I
 haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that 
 this
 must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve.

 This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such behaviour.

 -Stuart

BZFlag, a GPL multiplayer tank shoot'm up game,  maintains such a list, 
see the file /misc/multilingualSwearList.txt in the SVN repo below:

|https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag|



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Mally
?Forgive my ignorance, but what happens at the moment? Does nobody say 
anything to the abusers? Doesn't peer pressure, good example and setting 
guidelines present a more realistic solution (realistic by comparison with 
what happens in real world aviation I mean) rather than coming up with an 
automated system of blocking and control?

Mally

- Original Message - 
From: syd adams adams@gmail.com
To: FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers



  That stuff is unnecessary and in
 real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using
 foul language on the radio.

Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a
pretty good deterrent :).

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-
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Reagan Thomas
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Reagan Thomas thomas...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 10/19/2010 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote:

 On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote:

 Hi Everybody,
 I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own
 business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can
 I
 find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the
 Golden
 Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to
 criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when
 you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using
 foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my
 house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!)

 snip
 [...]


  Probably the biggest challenge would be finding a GPL list of naughty
 words. I
 haven't yet done any research so see if such a list exists. One feels that
 this
 must be a problem other chat systems have had to solve.

 This won't stop the problem completely but might discourage such
 behaviour.

 -Stuart

  BZFlag, a GPL multiplayer tank shoot'm up game,  maintains such a list,
 see the file /misc/multilingualSwearList.txt in the SVN repo below:

 |https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag|https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag%7C




Hrmm, I guess they *don't* maintain it any longer.  You can probably find it
in an old branch or tag. Or find it here:

http://svn.navi.cx/misc/abandoned/opencombat/misc/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Gene Buckle
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010, Curtis Olson wrote:

 Oh dear ...

 http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary

 I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up
 with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete
 novice ...

A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server.

It's not the job of a multi-player server to provide nanny services.  If 
the end user doesn't want to see adult language, they're welcome to enable 
whatever filtering that could be built into the client.  In fact, this 
could be enabled by default - that way paruhnts of pweshush snowflakes 
don't come screaming at you about having to gouge out their eyes over four 
letter words (spelling of parents is intentional).

Any kind of multi-player universe is going to have griefers.  There's no 
reasonable way around it.  There are ways to mitigate it though.  The most 
effective methods require people in the loop unfortunately.

Authenticated logins will help - as well as a rating system that other 
users can use to filter bad-actors.  The ratings would have to be provided 
by other players.  Say they'd start out as a 10 and every n complaints, 
they'd get docked a point.  Troublesome users would eventually lower their 
rating to a point where most players wouldn't see them.  Think of how the 
Slashdot moderation system work - you can read the comments at a specific 
level  The same could be done with MP traffic on the client.

g.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Reagan Thomas
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote:

   That stuff is unnecessary and in
  real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using
  foul language on the radio.

 Here, in Canada , its a $5000 fine and/or a year in jail.That,s a
 pretty good deterrent :).


Aviation aside, in Oklahoma, Profane Swearing is worth $1 for each
offense:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69425

Obscene language in a public place, is up to $100 and 30 days in jail:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69426

It's a good thing they don't enforce those laws very vigorously ;)
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Curtis Olson
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:

 A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server.

 It's not the job of a multi-player server to provide nanny services.  If
 the end user doesn't want to see adult language, they're welcome to enable
 whatever filtering that could be built into the client.  In fact, this
 could be enabled by default - that way paruhnts of pweshush snowflakes
 don't come screaming at you about having to gouge out their eyes over four
 letter words (spelling of parents is intentional).


Gene,

I appreciate your perspective, but I think it's incomplete.  The job of the
multi-player server is to provide a fun user experience.

Let's pretend no one is transported instantly to hell for the remainder of
eternity when they read a 4 letter word.  Still we have potential for racial
slurs, and the case that started this discussion: online death threats.

Free and open systems work great when everyone cooperates and acts
responsibly.  If however one person acts irresponsibly, it can ruin
everything for everyone.  We can't enforce a perfect system.  I think most
people can look beyond some occasional salty language, but other abuses
are more serious, and it's not about protecting my kids at that point.  It's
that we can't tolerate things like death threats and racial slurs.  It's a
slippery slope I know ... I'm talking about the broader category of hate
speech which is probably a loaded term in and of itself and will send many
people spinning out of control into political rants either for or against
... I don't want to define exactly what is or isn't allowable, but I think
we can mostly agree that some things are absolutely not allowable, and I'd
put death threats into that category.

So when there are cases of severe abuse, we at least need to think about
what mechanism we have available or could develop to self police our
community.

Would it be possible to start logging and saving (and publishing) MP
messages somewhere so a person with a grievance would have some hard
evidence to show what happened.  Right now when push comes to shove, we are
in a he said/she said situation.  But if we logged every message + call
sign + ip address we could go back and review situations.  Certainly it's
possible the grieved party might have said something initially that was more
controversial than they remember and started the situation degenerating into
something worse than it would have been.  Certainly it's possible that
comments would be misinterpreted.  We could also passively collect some
stats on what portion of messages contain possibly offending language or
what specific call signs might have unusually high percentages of matching
words.  Not initially to use for enforcement, but just to review the true
nature of the situation so we can make a more informed decision as to if we
have a real problem that needs to be addressed, or not ... ?

I understand that data free discussions are the most fun, but if we logged
and published MP messages, we could do some statistical analysis on all the
conversations, and we would also have specific cases we could review to
determine if there really is a problem or not.  I'd hate to spend 6 months
developing an authentication system because one idiot one time said
something stupid and it never happened again.  But if stuff happens
regularly, or if there are regular offenders, perhaps we would be wise to
think more carefully about developing mechanisms to deal with it.

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Stefan Seifert
On Tuesday 19 October 2010 16:41:35 Mally wrote:
 ?Forgive my ignorance, but what happens at the moment? Does nobody say
 anything to the abusers? Doesn't peer pressure, good example and setting
 guidelines present a more realistic solution (realistic by comparison with
 what happens in real world aviation I mean) rather than coming up with an
 automated system of blocking and control?

Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social 
problems.

A simple word filter would not prevent me from offending people or even 
expressing death threats. It would probably not even prevent me from swearing 
excessively in German. It might on the other hand prevent me from simply 
talking to people. As an example: jap may be an offending reference to a 
Japanese (as on Curt's word list), but also simply be the German form of 
yep. A word I use daily.

Social problems are best solved by social solutions. In a friendly, welcoming 
and helping society foul language and threats usually don't come that far.

For death threats, there are even more severe means available. Those are 
illegal in pretty much any country I know of and would result in immediate 
prison to protect the victim. The state simply cannot be sure if the offender 
might really do it.

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Gene Buckle
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010, Curtis Olson wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:

 A filter like this belongs in the client machine, not the server.

 It's not the job of a multi-player server to provide nanny services.  If
 the end user doesn't want to see adult language, they're welcome to enable
 whatever filtering that could be built into the client.  In fact, this
 could be enabled by default - that way paruhnts of pweshush snowflakes
 don't come screaming at you about having to gouge out their eyes over four
 letter words (spelling of parents is intentional).


 Gene,

 I appreciate your perspective, but I think it's incomplete.  The job of the
 multi-player server is to provide a fun user experience.


The whole hate speech thing gives me a squicky feeling - it's more of a 
cliff edge than a slippery slope and (at least for my purposes) outside 
the envelope for this...

What I DO think is a good idea is keeping logs of radio traffic. 
Something like a rolling 30 days of it would be kind of interesting and 
something along the lines of how the FAA tracks keeps ATC audio. 
(although I don't know what the retention periods are).

I would like to see a feature added that would prevent the logging if 
_all_ the users on a specific frequency had a privacy toggle set.

g.




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Curtis Olson
Promoting the concept of free market place of ideas here:

The multiplayer server source is open and anyone can setup their own server.
 Sure the MP system is only fun when there are lots of people participating
...

But if someone wants to have their own private free for all and express any
opinion in anyway, I have no problem with that ... they can set up their own
server and go at it.

On the flip side, if enough people determine that the abuses in the current
MP system have crossed a threshold, we can do something about it.  We can
develop an authenticated system (there would be a variety of ways to do
that, some wouldn't require any changes on the client side.)

So I think it's good to have an honest discussion of all these issues.  We
do currently have just one community MP system so it's fair to discuss how
that is used and abused.  But we have a free system here where it would be
quite easy for people on all sides of the issue to address their own
concerns by setting up their own servers and doing whatever they want to
with them.  I assume at the end of the day we'll have a majority of opinion
and I think we should steer our MP system in that direction, but those that
are highly offended by the majority view could very easily set up their own
system and do whatever they like with it.

Curt.


On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Stefan Seifert wrote:

 On Tuesday 19 October 2010 16:41:35 Mally wrote:
  ?Forgive my ignorance, but what happens at the moment? Does nobody say
  anything to the abusers? Doesn't peer pressure, good example and setting
  guidelines present a more realistic solution (realistic by comparison
 with
  what happens in real world aviation I mean) rather than coming up with an
  automated system of blocking and control?

 Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social
 problems.

 A simple word filter would not prevent me from offending people or even
 expressing death threats. It would probably not even prevent me from
 swearing
 excessively in German. It might on the other hand prevent me from simply
 talking to people. As an example: jap may be an offending reference to a
 Japanese (as on Curt's word list), but also simply be the German form of
 yep. A word I use daily.

 Social problems are best solved by social solutions. In a friendly,
 welcoming
 and helping society foul language and threats usually don't come that far.

 For death threats, there are even more severe means available. Those are
 illegal in pretty much any country I know of and would result in immediate
 prison to protect the victim. The state simply cannot be sure if the
 offender
 might really do it.

 Stefan


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Gary Neely
A few additional details can be found by reading the relevant post as
jackmermod in the FG forums:

I experienced a horrible attack over mp today. I ended up flying up
on the attackers 6 o'clock in my F-14 and firing upon him with over 20
Aim-9's in hopes of causing him to lag. Luckily I caused him to
crash.(which pissed him off enough to leave) :) the things he said
accumulated to the most disgusting words I have ever seen put together
in my life. While I am not affected, many others who may have to go
through this would probably leave flightgear.

http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=8432st=0sk=tsd=astart=270


Behavior was clearly not the best on either side. In my experience,
technical solutions can't prevent this sort of thing.

I work in the education field on a project involving online
communities of grade school children. We employ language filters. The
result has little effect on what the children can communicate. They
can always find ways around the filter or re-phrase their meaning. The
real behavior checks come from the community: the moderators, their
peers, their teachers.

-Gary

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Martin Spott
Stefan Seifert wrote:

 Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social 
 problems.

Exactly this is the point, and I'd like to add that the social problem
we're currently looking at might be manifold 

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Adam Dershowitz, Ph.D., P.E.
Instead of trying to put together a list, you should watch a video of George 
Carlin's Seven dirty words.  
Censorship is not the solution to this kind of problem.  
It is just too easy to come up with a way to be offensive, or to threaten 
someone.  If you decide to censor, then YOU take the responsibility for 
anything that is not censored, since it is now approved by the filter.  If 
the response is that the filter doesn't do a good job, then what is the point?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Carlin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM


--Adam



On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:07 AM, Curtis Olson wrote:

 Oh dear ...
 
 http://www.noswearing.com/dictionary
 
 I was going to say that we could probably do a pretty good job at coming up 
 with a list ourselves, then I saw this site and realized I'm a complete 
 novice ...
 
 Could we also filter at the MP server level?  It might be nice to filter at 
 the sending level so you could give the user some positive feedback if they 
 type something that won't get passed along.  But as imperfect (and possibly 
 entertaining) as any list would be, it might not be a bad idea to do some 
 basic screening of the more common words.  That stuff is unnecessary and in 
 real life you'd probably get your license yanked if you were caught using 
 foul language on the radio.
 
 As with the rest of life, it's nice to run a 100% completely open and free 
 system, until a few idiots start abusing the privilege and then we are forced 
 to start clamping down. :-(
 
 Another thought.  I know it would be a huge effort to setup a system with 
 user id's and passwords, self registration, captcha's, email verification, 
 etc.  Even more interesting if we want a distributed authentication system on 
 top of our distributed mp server system.  But if we could expand the MP 
 system to include a user id with the intent of eventually tying this to a 
 user account/authentication system, then we could flag and identify abusers.  
 We might have some developers or participants who are really good at this 
 stuff and would love to setup a system???  If we developed it in parallel, we 
 could still have the current system running by default as we bring an 
 authenticated system on line.  Then we'd be able to determine if the 
 authenticated system works well, makes sense, helps address abuse, etc.  And 
 at some point when it's working well, we could cut over to it.  Or 
 individuals could make their own personal decision about which system to run 
 on (hopefully the tide would shift over to the authenticated system.)
 
 Abuse could involve more than language or threats on the chat system.  It 
 might be worth slapping someone for leaving their AN-225 parked at the end of 
 28R at SFO for 3 days straight or perhaps doing other things intentionally to 
 disrupt the realistic flight experience of others on the system.
 
 I know we have some good php/mysql jockies in this project ... I don't think 
 we need to be cryptographically secure in our system.  Just thinking out loud 
 here: maybe the mp server computes a random key of the day (16bit or 32bit 
 random number).  You have to authenticate with user name/password to get the 
 key, and then there would be a slot in every output MP message from your 
 system for this key.  (This would all be handled internally to FlightGear 
 some how ... maybe you could set your username/password via command line 
 options or properties in the config file, or set them in a dialog box and 
 then they'd be saved in your autosave.xml file.)  Messages that don't have 
 the matching key would be silently discarded.  Sure this could be hacked, but 
 I think some basic simple levels of authentication would take care of 99.99% 
 of the riff raff.
 
 Regards,
 
 Curt.
 
 
 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Stuart Buchanan wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:01 AM, Jack Mermod wrote:
  Hi Everybody,
  I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own
  business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where can I
  find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around the Golden
  Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then proceeded to
  criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies isn't easy when
  you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began insulting me, using
  foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to threaten to come to my
  house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I even learned some things!)
 snip
 
 I thought you were 24 (based on your forum profile)?
 
 One fairly easy option would be to filter MP chat messages in nasal
 based on a set
 of unnacceptable words. We could do this on the receiving client and simply
 not display such messages. I've been thinking this would be a good idea to
 make the FG MP environment more child-friendly anyway.
 
 I'd also be tempted to filter on the sending client as well, and not
 allow a message
 to 

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Stefan Seifert
On Tuesday 19 October 2010 18:51:37 Martin Spott wrote:
 Stefan Seifert wrote:
  Very sensible words. Technical solutions usually don't work for social
  problems.
 
 Exactly this is the point, and I'd like to add that the social problem
 we're currently looking at might be manifold 

But I'd also like to add, that Curt's idea of simply logging multiplayer chat 
messages might help creating the social pressure to behave decently. As people 
already don't know, who might be listening on a frequency, privacy should not 
be an issue. If some people need real privacy, they should already use a 
private server.

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Vivian Meazza
Gary Neely wrote

 
 A few additional details can be found by reading the relevant post as
 jackmermod in the FG forums:
 
 I experienced a horrible attack over mp today. I ended up flying up
 on the attackers 6 o'clock in my F-14 and firing upon him with over 20
 Aim-9's in hopes of causing him to lag. Luckily I caused him to
 crash.(which pissed him off enough to leave) :) the things he said
 accumulated to the most disgusting words I have ever seen put together
 in my life. While I am not affected, many others who may have to go
 through this would probably leave flightgear.
 
 http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=8432st=0sk=tsd=a;
 start=270
 
 
 Behavior was clearly not the best on either side. In my experience,
 technical solutions can't prevent this sort of thing.
 
 I work in the education field on a project involving online
 communities of grade school children. We employ language filters. The
 result has little effect on what the children can communicate. They
 can always find ways around the filter or re-phrase their meaning. The
 real behavior checks come from the community: the moderators, their
 peers, their teachers.
 

Hmm, so far as I'm aware, we don't pass missiles or any other submodels over
MP, unless someone sneaked it in while I wasn't looking. Certainly, it isn't
done in any code that I have written: deliberately so.  

I think someone was kidding himself.

Vivian



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread Vivian Meazza
Hal V. Engel wrote

 On Tuesday, October 19, 2010 02:15:08 pm Vivian Meazza wrote:
  Gary Neely wrote
 
   A few additional details can be found by reading the relevant post as
   jackmermod in the FG forums:
  
   I experienced a horrible attack over mp today. I ended up flying up
   on the attackers 6 o'clock in my F-14 and firing upon him with over 20
   Aim-9's in hopes of causing him to lag. Luckily I caused him to
   crash.(which pissed him off enough to leave) :) the things he said
   accumulated to the most disgusting words I have ever seen put together
   in my life. While I am not affected, many others who may have to go
   through this would probably leave flightgear.
  
  
 http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=8432st=0sk=tsd=a
start=270
  
  
   Behavior was clearly not the best on either side. In my experience,
   technical solutions can't prevent this sort of thing.
  
   I work in the education field on a project involving online
   communities of grade school children. We employ language filters. The
   result has little effect on what the children can communicate. They
   can always find ways around the filter or re-phrase their meaning. The
   real behavior checks come from the community: the moderators, their
   peers, their teachers.
 
  Hmm, so far as I'm aware, we don't pass missiles or any other submodels
  over MP, unless someone sneaked it in while I wasn't looking. Certainly,
  it isn't done in any code that I have written: deliberately so.
 
  I think someone was kidding himself.
 
  Vivian
 
 If the models in question have the bombable stuff setup then some
 information
 about submodel hits (and near misses?) is sent over the wire.  But what
 specific information is is sent I don't know.
 

Bombable is not part of Flightgear. If MP Players choose to have that
added into their system, that's up to them. However, so far as I'm aware it
only transmits info about hits, and not submodel data, and it will not
affect any player who hasn't added it to their system. If it does, I will
take steps to stop it, as it represents a potential source of abuse. AFAIKS
it's not part of the standard F14 available for download from FG.

That said, I'm sure that bombable adds enjoyment of Flightgear for those
that use it.

Vivian 



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-19 Thread fierst42
One account per IP address is not a good idea, because it is very well 
possible for several independent people to use the same public IP 
address. In IPv4 at least with NAT routers. I can think of examples in 
student homes with a shared broadband connection. Or the clubhouse of 
the flying club. Or even private households where several family members 
like flightgear. Furthermore, there are Internet providers that use 
dynamic public IP addresses, so the same connection does not always use 
the same IP address. It would therefore not even limit access reliably.
A limit of one member per IP address will probably bring a lot of 
support questions and is not practical.


m


Op 18-10-10 06:01, Jack Mermod schreef:


We could then only allow one account per IP address(perfectly 
possible, the forum software we're using right now has an option for 
that!), and when a user acts up, they're account could be suspended 
accordingly based on the magnitude of their offense. For moderators, a 
group of respected and trusted users could be elected, or a report 
system could be rigged, and logs of mp chats could be stored for later 
reference.





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[Flightgear-devel] Ridding Multiplayer of Abusers

2010-10-17 Thread Jack Mermod

Hi Everybody,
		I recently was on Multiplayer, flying with a friend, minding my own  
business, when another pilot asked a general newbie question: Where  
can I find the Nimitz?. In only good intent, I replied: Look around  
the Golden Gate Bridge, you'll find it eventually. The pilot then  
proceeded to criticize my short answer(typing long detailed replies  
isn't easy when you're trying to land on a carrier), and soon began  
insulting me, using foul, profane language, and finally proceeded to  
threaten to come to my house and kill me and my family.(I'm 68 and I  
even learned some things!) I honestly don't know what his motivation  
to say such hurtful things was(maybe he was fed up of not getting the  
perfect answer he was looking for), but I realized from this that  
multiplayer is in bad need of some sort of general administration.  
This is not the first 'negative' encounter that I have had with other  
pilots, and I have seen other innocent pilots verbally abused. I have  
an idea for how an account system could be rigged for multiplayer:


 We could make a mysql database (to store usernames and passwords  
securely), then we'd simply implement a php script on all the mp  
servers that would check for the submission of a username/password,  
and it would scan the database for matches. When it finds a match, it  
would allow you to connect to the server. Username/Password could be  
implemented into fgrun.


And for command line users it could look something like this:

--username=jack
--password=123abc

We could then only allow one account per IP address(perfectly  
possible, the forum software we're using right now has an option for  
that!), and when a user acts up, they're account could be suspended  
accordingly based on the magnitude of their offense. For moderators, a  
group of respected and trusted users could be elected, or a report  
system could be rigged, and logs of mp chats could be stored for later  
reference.


This is merely my two cents. I'd really like to get some feedback to  
see what everybody else thinks about this, especially from the server  
maintainers. I've introduced my idea to the forums, and mostly gotten  
positive feedback. I have gotten some negative responses concerning  
this, but most with weak arguments such as Just ignore them or  
They'll go away if you don't respond. I am not so much concerned for  
my own sake, but for the sake of that 11 year old boy that flies  
online and has yet been exposed to profanity, foul language, sex  
content, and threats such as one killing your family. Please, share  
your thoughts, this is a very real issue and I'd like to know what you  
think!


Check Six,
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