Re: [Flightgear-devel] YASim not be able to simulate small aircrafts with canard-config?
Hello Heiko, Did you try to call the main wing in the fdm file hstab and the canard wing with the real incidence values? And check the position of the c.g. Maik Heiko Schulz schrieb am 12.09.2008 03:51: Hi, Some months ago I began to model a Gyroflug Speedcanard SC-01B, a well-known german canard-aircraft. (this one: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gyroflug-SC-01B-160-Speed/1389966/L/) Very similar to the Long-EZ by Rutan, but the fuselage is from a Twin-Astir, the airfoils by Eppler ( the exactly name I can give you, if you want). It has a 160PS strong engine and flys like a jet. My attempt to create a fdm was not successful: it always fell down, or spinned. So I asked Oliver Predelli, (author of the Braunschweig scenery and some YASIm-aircrafts) for help. At least he had the same problems, but he managed to get a stable fdm- but the perfomance was far away from realistic: it went never be faster than 90 kn though it had an engine power of 4000 PS! Some days ago I discovered the LongEZ by Helijah- but the fdm is fake. I got my hands on it and just changed the position of the canard and the main wing, so it has canard config: The same behavior: spinning, slow though it had enough power... So it seems to me, that YASim is not be able to simulate this type of aircraft correct. Am I right? In the attachement you will find the fdm-file by Oliver in hope someone can help. Regards HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] YASim not be able to simulate small aircrafts with canard-config?
Am Freitag, den 12.09.2008, 01:51 + schrieb Heiko Schulz: Hi, Some months ago I began to model a Gyroflug Speedcanard SC-01B, a well-known german canard-aircraft. (this one: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gyroflug-SC-01B-160-Speed/1389966/L/) Very similar to the Long-EZ by Rutan, but the fuselage is from a Twin-Astir, the airfoils by Eppler ( the exactly name I can give you, if you want). It has a 160PS strong engine and flys like a jet. My attempt to create a fdm was not successful: it always fell down, or spinned. So I asked Oliver Predelli, (author of the Braunschweig scenery and some YASIm-aircrafts) for help. At least he had the same problems, but he managed to get a stable fdm- but the perfomance was far away from realistic: it went never be faster than 90 kn though it had an engine power of 4000 PS! Some days ago I discovered the LongEZ by Helijah- but the fdm is fake. I got my hands on it and just changed the position of the canard and the main wing, so it has canard config: The same behavior: spinning, slow though it had enough power... So it seems to me, that YASim is not be able to simulate this type of aircraft correct. Am I right? Sure it can, first of all you need to add a mixture control element to your approach and cruise tags, otherwise Yasim won't calculate anything. You should revise your engine config which looks suspiciously like a ship engine (1462 cubic inch displacement = 24 litres). You won't get a proper solution if you specify the same cruise speed for aircraft and propeller in different heights. Try setting a lower value for propeller cruise speed. If you have any real life data on the engine, begin with these values. Is the propeller fixed or constant speed? In your file is a fixed one. For a start you could try to adapt the Grob 109 /115 engine. Greetings In the attachement you will find the fdm-file by Oliver in hope someone can help. Regards HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Detlef Faber http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] YASim not be able to simulate small aircrafts with canard-config?
On Friday 12 September 2008, Heiko Schulz wrote: Hi, Some months ago I began to model a Gyroflug Speedcanard SC-01B, a well-known german canard-aircraft. (this one: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gyroflug-SC-01B-160-Speed/1389966/ L/) Very similar to the Long-EZ by Rutan, but the fuselage is from a Twin-Astir, the airfoils by Eppler ( the exactly name I can give you, if you want). It has a 160PS strong engine and flys like a jet. My attempt to create a fdm was not successful: it always fell down, or spinned. So I asked Oliver Predelli, (author of the Braunschweig scenery and some YASIm-aircrafts) for help. At least he had the same problems, but he managed to get a stable fdm- but the perfomance was far away from realistic: it went never be faster than 90 kn though it had an engine power of 4000 PS! Some days ago I discovered the LongEZ by Helijah- but the fdm is fake. I got my hands on it and just changed the position of the canard and the main wing, so it has canard config: The same behavior: spinning, slow though it had enough power... So it seems to me, that YASim is not be able to simulate this type of aircraft correct. Am I right? In the attachement you will find the fdm-file by Oliver in hope someone can help. Regards HHS Hello Heiko, Try the one I've attached. I think that perhaps the biggest problem with your FDM was that the stall AoA of the hstab (9 deg) was less than the approach AoA (15 deg). The capacity of the Lycoming O-320-D2A is 320 cu inches and I reduced the prop radius to 0.6 m - it obviously doesn't have a 4.0 metre dia prop :) I didn't check any of the geometry but I assume that you measured the wing sweep at mid-chord - this is what YASim requires - and not at the more usual 1/4 chord, or leading edge sweep. I've also set the effectiveness for both the wing and hstab back down to 1.0 and zeroed the camber values, along with making the elevator (and aileron) lift values lower than their drag values. I haven't been able to try flying the FDM - I haven't got a working FG on my systems atm - but it solves in the stand alone YASim solver. The lift result is a bit high and the drag result a bit low, but I think it should fly and further small tweaks should bring it more in to line with the real aircraft. I suspect the CG x-position should be a little bit closer to the main gear x-position but I'll leave that for you to play with. The stand alone solution results I get here are: Solution results: Iterations: 1312 Drag Coefficient: 5.634174 Lift Ratio: 220.707657 Cruise AoA: 3.141160 Tail Incidence: 1.650591 Approach Elevator: -0.679263 CG: x:0.452, y:0.000, z:0.206 Inertia tensor : 1975.889, -0.000, 13.359 [kg*m^2] -0.000, 1428.914, 0.000 Origo at CG 13.359, 0.000, 3401.351 LeeE airplane mass=1200 !-- Engine: 160 hp at 2700 rpm empty weight: 435 kg = 960 pound take off weight: 680 kg = 1500 pound fuel capacity: 110 kg = 243 pound takeoff at 120 km/h = 65 kn climb rate at 150 km/h = 81 kn: 700 - 1000 ft/min cruising speed at 75% throttle: 260 km/h = 140 kn max speed: 360 km/h = 194 kn during stall: nodding frequency 0.75 Hz, nodding angle +/- 10 deg rudder in winglet is only working to the outside, pull-back with spring, right rudder to the right, left rudder to the left, right and left independent to each other aileron in main wing -- !-- Approach configuration -- approach speed=60 aoa=15 control-setting axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle value=0.4/ control-setting axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/mixture value=1.0/ control-setting axis=/controls/gear/gear-down value=1/ /approach !-- Cruise configuration. -- cruise speed=150 alt=6000 control-setting axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle value=0.75/ control-setting axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/mixture value=1.0/ control-setting axis=/controls/gear/gear-down value=0/ /cruise !-- pilot eyepoint -- cockpit x=1.0 y=0.0 z=0.6/ !-- fuselage -- fuselage ax=2.6 ay=0 az=0 bx=-1.8 by=0 bz=0.46 width=0.8 taper=0.5 midpoint=0.5 cx=2 cy=2/ !--The wing length is from tips to fuselage, including intakes. -- !-- Winglets reduce the efficient wing length by 20%, so the wing definition in YASIM is longer than real -- wing x=-0.4 y=0.4 z=0.2 length=4.8 chord=1.2 incidence=0.0 twist=0.0 taper=0.6 sweep=18 dihedral=0.0 camber=0.0 stall aoa=24 width=1.5 peak=1.4/ flap0 start=0.4 end=0.8 lift=1.3 drag=1.4/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/aileron control=FLAP0 split=true/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/aileron-trim control=FLAP0 split=true/ control-output control=FLAP0 side=left prop=/surface-positions/left-aileron-pos-norm/ control-output control=FLAP0 side=right prop=/surface-positions/right-aileron-pos-norm/ control-speed control=FLAP0 transition-time=0.5/ /wing hstab x=2.08 y=0.17 z=0.2 length=2.0
Re: [Flightgear-devel] YASim not be able to simulate small aircrafts with canard-config?
Hi, Why don't you take a look at the FDM of j7w - Shinden. It has a canard configure and there is no problem in flying it. Though I can't tell if it is reallistic since I have never seen the real one, it might help you find something to improve your FDM. Best, Tar - Tatsuhiro Nishioka On Sep 12, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Heiko Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Some months ago I began to model a Gyroflug Speedcanard SC-01B, a well-known german canard-aircraft. (this one: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gyroflug-SC-01B-160-Speed/1389966/L/ ) Very similar to the Long-EZ by Rutan, but the fuselage is from a Twin-Astir, the airfoils by Eppler ( the exactly name I can give you, if you want). It has a 160PS strong engine and flys like a jet. My attempt to create a fdm was not successful: it always fell down, or spinned. So I asked Oliver Predelli, (author of the Braunschweig scenery and some YASIm-aircrafts) for help. At least he had the same problems, but he managed to get a stable fdm- but the perfomance was far away from realistic: it went never be faster than 90 kn though it had an engine power of 4000 PS! Some days ago I discovered the LongEZ by Helijah- but the fdm is fake. I got my hands on it and just changed the position of the canard and the main wing, so it has canard config: The same behavior: spinning, slow though it had enough power... So it seems to me, that YASim is not be able to simulate this type of aircraft correct. Am I right? In the attachement you will find the fdm-file by Oliver in hope someone can help. Regards HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Sc hutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com speedcanard-yasim.xml --- -- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] YASim not be able to simulate small aircrafts with canard-config?
Hi, Some months ago I began to model a Gyroflug Speedcanard SC-01B, a well-known german canard-aircraft. (this one: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gyroflug-SC-01B-160-Speed/1389966/L/) Very similar to the Long-EZ by Rutan, but the fuselage is from a Twin-Astir, the airfoils by Eppler ( the exactly name I can give you, if you want). It has a 160PS strong engine and flys like a jet. My attempt to create a fdm was not successful: it always fell down, or spinned. So I asked Oliver Predelli, (author of the Braunschweig scenery and some YASIm-aircrafts) for help. At least he had the same problems, but he managed to get a stable fdm- but the perfomance was far away from realistic: it went never be faster than 90 kn though it had an engine power of 4000 PS! Some days ago I discovered the LongEZ by Helijah- but the fdm is fake. I got my hands on it and just changed the position of the canard and the main wing, so it has canard config: The same behavior: spinning, slow though it had enough power... So it seems to me, that YASim is not be able to simulate this type of aircraft correct. Am I right? In the attachement you will find the fdm-file by Oliver in hope someone can help. Regards HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com airplane mass=1200 !-- Engine: 160 hp at 2700 rpm empty weight: 435 kg = 960 pound take off weight: 680 kg = 1500 pound fuel capacity: 110 kg = 243 pound takeoff at 120 km/h = 65 kn climb rate at 150 km/h = 81 kn: 700 - 1000 ft/min cruising speed at 75% throttle: 260 km/h = 140 kn max speed: 360 km/h = 194 kn during stall: nodding frequency 0.75 Hz, nodding angle +/- 10 deg rudder in winglet is only working to the outside, pull-back with spring, right rudder to the right, left rudder to the left, right and left independent to each other aileron in main wing -- !-- Approach configuration -- approach speed=60 aoa=15 control-setting axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle value=0.4/ control-setting axis=/controls/gear/gear-down value=1/ /approach !-- Cruise configuration. -- cruise speed=150 alt=6000 control-setting axis=/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle value=0.75/ control-setting axis=/controls/gear/gear-down value=0/ /cruise !-- pilot eyepoint -- cockpit x=1.0 y=0.0 z=0.6/ !-- fuselage -- fuselage ax=2.6 ay=0 az=0 bx=-1.8 by=0 bz=0.46 width=0.8 taper=0.5 midpoint=0.5 cx=2 cy=2/ !--The wing length is from tips to fuselage, including intakes. -- !-- Winglets reduce the efficient wing length by 20%, so the wing definition in YASIM is longer than real -- wing x=-0.4 y=0.4 z=0.2 length=4.8 chord=1.2 incidence=-1.0 twist=-1.0 taper=0.6 sweep=18 dihedral=0.0 effectiveness=1.5 camber=0.1 stall aoa=20 width=10 peak=1.8/ flap0 start=0.4 end=0.8 lift=1.7 drag=1.2/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/aileron control=FLAP0 split=true/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/aileron-trim control=FLAP0 split=true/ control-output control=FLAP0 side=left prop=/surface-positions/left-aileron-pos-norm/ control-output control=FLAP0 side=right prop=/surface-positions/right-aileron-pos-norm/ control-speed control=FLAP0 transition-time=1/ /wing hstab x=2.08 y=0.17 z=0.2 length=2.0 chord=0.9 incidence=0.0 taper=1.0 sweep=0 effectiveness=1.5 camber=0.35 stall aoa=9 width=1 peak=3.0/ flap0 start=0 end=1 lift=1.5 drag=1.5/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/elevator control=FLAP0 invert=true/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/elevator-trim control=FLAP0 invert=true/ control-output control=FLAP0 prop=/surface-positions/elevator-pos-norm/ control-speed control=FLAP0 transition-time=1/ /hstab !-- left winglet -- vstab x=-2.12 y=4.1 z=0.0 length=0.97 chord=0.72 taper=0.3 sweep=0 stall aoa=15 width=14 peak=1.0/ flap0 start=0.1 end=0.6 lift=1.7 drag=1.5/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/rudder control=FLAP0 invert=true src0=-1.0 src1=0.0 dst0=-1.0 dst1=0.0/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/rudder-trim control=FLAP0 invert=true/ control-output control=FLAP0 prop=/surface-positions/rudder-pos-norm/ /vstab !-- right winglet -- vstab x=-2.12 y=-4.1 z=0.0 length=0.97 chord=0.72 taper=0.3 sweep=0 stall aoa=15 width=14 peak=1.0/ flap0 start=0.1 end=0.6 lift=1.7 drag=1.5/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/rudder control=FLAP0 invert=true src0=0.0 src1=1.0 dst0=0.0 dst1=1.0/ control-input axis=/controls/flight/rudder-trim control=FLAP0 invert=true/ control-output control=FLAP0 prop=/surface-positions/rudder-pos-norm/
