[Flightgear-devel] Colditz glider (Was: AI Aircraft Models)
Steve Hosgood wrote: I'll be quite happy for the Colditz Glider to be part of 0.9.9 Ok it's committed to CVS. It won't be part of 0.9.9 directly but it will be downloadable from the aircraft page after that. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 18:36, Josh Babcock wrote: Someone should commit this to CVS too. Or at least, add the finished tarball on the Additional Aircraft Download page on flightgear.org. Are all those additional aircraft built from the main CVS? I'd assumed they were maintained by their original authors. Whatever, there's still a bit of minor finishing off to do before the Colditz Glider is ready for such a showcase. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: Whatever, there's still a bit of minor finishing off to do before the Colditz Glider is ready for such a showcase. Let me (or Curt) know whet it is. Once in CVS it will show up in the download aircraft packages also. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On June 6, 2005 06:44 pm, Josh Babcock wrote: Well, take a look at what I put in, no wires, though I could do that with about zero trouble if people think it would add to the model. Personally I don't think it would add much though. Also I think the bar I put in there is pretty sensible. Now who's going to do the castle :) Happy escapes! Josh Well, here's a map if it helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Colditzcampmap.jpg As to escapes, prisoners are encouraged to do so. If they get caught, they won't get shot. Read about the escape stories here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colditz_Castle Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 00:42, Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? Josh Superb job, Josh. Many thanks. Sorry it's been a while since you completed it, but I've been ill. I love the details (like the wonky surface on the leading-edge!). The details of the inside of the cockpit are, as you say, just a guess but look pretty feasable to me. It would be nice if anyone on this list was visiting the IWM's Aircraft Museum and could contribute any detailed photos of the replica. A polite request to the museum itself might mean that such a visitor could be let past the ropes to get really close up. I got the impression from photos of the 2000 flight of the replica that the wing struts were a lot chunkier than you've made them, but that's all I can contribute. I have a bit more tweaking to do on the CG, and then I'll release what will (for now) probably be a first complete tarball of the Colditz Glider aircraft addon. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 00:42, Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? Josh Superb job, Josh. Many thanks. Sorry it's been a while since you completed it, but I've been ill. I love the details (like the wonky surface on the leading-edge!). The details of the inside of the cockpit are, as you say, just a guess but look pretty feasable to me. It would be nice if anyone on this list was visiting the IWM's Aircraft Museum and could contribute any detailed photos of the replica. A polite request to the museum itself might mean that such a visitor could be let past the ropes to get really close up. I got the impression from photos of the 2000 flight of the replica that the wing struts were a lot chunkier than you've made them, but that's all I can contribute. I have a bit more tweaking to do on the CG, and then I'll release what will (for now) probably be a first complete tarball of the Colditz Glider aircraft addon. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Someone should commit this to CVS too. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 19:44, Josh Babcock wrote: Well, take a look at what I put in, no wires, though I could do that with about zero trouble if people think it would add to the model. Personally I don't think it would add much though. Agreed. Also I think the bar I put in there is pretty sensible. I'll 'fess up to not having looked yet. Maybe I'll get a chance lunchtime. Now who's going to do the castle :) I've asked a few times if anyone from Colditz itself (or Chemnitz or Dresden) might volunteer for the challenge, but no replies yet. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 00:42, Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? For certain, it will just be a centre-pivoted piece of wood with two wires (probably connected to the far ends) running back to a similar piece of stick fixed to the rudder pivot. The POWs built the whole thing out of floorboards and intended it to survive just a single flight. They will have done nothing fancy. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 16:41, Josh Babcock wrote: Smarter instrument Shadow .ac tweaks That's a really nice model - the textures are great, as is the animated yaw-string. Makes me wish I had the ability to produce these things - I do regularly try, but always give up in disgust quite quickly! I might manage a building or two one of these days though. Cheers, AJ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:35:03 +0100, Steve wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 00:42, Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? For certain, it will just be a centre-pivoted piece of wood with two wires (probably connected to the far ends) running back to a similar piece of stick fixed to the rudder pivot. The POWs built the whole thing out of floorboards and intended it to survive just a single flight. They will have done nothing fancy. ..don't be too sure, I grew up with an unique music instrument on the wall, looks like a balalaika but is flat bottomed and has 4 strings, some russian folk music group members I met a few years back told me this was not a russian instrument they knew about. It was likely built in a WWII POW KZ camp at Trondenes just outside Harstad, Norway, those camps were set up to provide manpower to build an heavy gun batteriy (4x406mm) there from guns made surplus when Hitler grounded his navy, the inmates were mostly Soviet and Yugoslav army and guerilla POW's who were denied proper POW status. ..expect good workmanship on the floor board product, it was built to carry 2 POW's for about 5 minutes after being catapulted outta the attic by a bathtub full of concrete. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 14:31, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:35:03 +0100, Steve wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The POWs built the whole thing out of floorboards and intended it to survive just a single flight. They will have done nothing fancy. ..don't be too sure [...] expect good workmanship on the floor board product, it was built to carry 2 POW's for about 5 minutes after being catapulted outta the attic by a bathtub full of concrete. Don't get me wrong, folks! I do expect good workmanship, but kept simple. A centre-pivoted piece of 3cm x 4cm wood with wires attached to the far ends running back through the fuselage to the rudder would be all that they'd need. No need for fancy fretwork decoration or rubber footpads! Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 14:31, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:35:03 +0100, Steve wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The POWs built the whole thing out of floorboards and intended it to survive just a single flight. They will have done nothing fancy. ..don't be too sure [...] expect good workmanship on the floor board product, it was built to carry 2 POW's for about 5 minutes after being catapulted outta the attic by a bathtub full of concrete. Don't get me wrong, folks! I do expect good workmanship, but kept simple. A centre-pivoted piece of 3cm x 4cm wood with wires attached to the far ends running back through the fuselage to the rudder would be all that they'd need. No need for fancy fretwork decoration or rubber footpads! Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Well, take a look at what I put in, no wires, though I could do that with about zero trouble if people think it would add to the model. Personally I don't think it would add much though. Also I think the bar I put in there is pretty sensible. Now who's going to do the castle :) Happy escapes! Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le samedi 04 juin 2005 19:37 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : All done. Production version of the model at http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz This includes a set file and a whole new Models directory. The only thing that needs to be done is put an AC_VRP in the jsbsim file to make sure the model is centered properly. I will let Steve do that so I don't have to muck with anymore of his files. Besides, I don't know where the CG is. Josh Many thanks for that great opus AND we can do aerobatics figures, without fasten belts -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Josh Babcock wrote: Josh Babcock wrote: Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 19:42 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? Josh Oh, it is better and better, Only a little PB with texture wood-dark which crashed my fgfs, solved by a read write of that texture in Gimp. AND may be Colditz need to be scaled, it seems very tall. I'll take a look at the textures. Yes, it needs to be scaled. I forgot I modeled it in feet, it needs to be put into meters. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d All done. Production version of the model at http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz This includes a set file and a whole new Models directory. The only thing that needs to be done is put an AC_VRP in the jsbsim file to make sure the model is centered properly. I will let Steve do that so I don't have to muck with anymore of his files. Besides, I don't know where the CG is. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Minor update. Smarter instrument Shadow .ac tweaks Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 19:42 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? Josh Oh, it is better and better, Only a little PB with texture wood-dark which crashed my fgfs, solved by a read write of that texture in Gimp. AND may be Colditz need to be scaled, it seems very tall. I'll take a look at the textures. Yes, it needs to be scaled. I forgot I modeled it in feet, it needs to be put into meters. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Josh Babcock wrote: Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 19:42 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? Josh Oh, it is better and better, Only a little PB with texture wood-dark which crashed my fgfs, solved by a read write of that texture in Gimp. AND may be Colditz need to be scaled, it seems very tall. I'll take a look at the textures. Yes, it needs to be scaled. I forgot I modeled it in feet, it needs to be put into meters. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d All done. Production version of the model at http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz This includes a set file and a whole new Models directory. The only thing that needs to be done is put an AC_VRP in the jsbsim file to make sure the model is centered properly. I will let Steve do that so I don't have to muck with anymore of his files. Besides, I don't know where the CG is. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 01:46, Josh Babcock wrote: Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le jeudi 02 juin 2005 20:16 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: Not quite done yet, still need some stuff in the cockpit, landing gear There's not much of either of those! I put some instruments on my hack, just to make it easier to fly without physical clues like the wind in your face. The replica in 1999/2000 had a wind ribbon - no idea if they planned one for the original. Landing gear consists of just a skid. The 1999/2000 replica had a steel main skid because they wanted it to survive the landing and be able to fly again. The original designers commented that they didn't bother with more than a rudimentary wooden skid because all they wanted was landing protection - the glider would never fly again (for them at least). and some animations. I'm not planning on putting in a pilot, though if enough people want one I can give it a shot. It would look nice, but it's probably a lot of work. I spotted a wartime photo of one of the builders somewhere. Mapping that onto the face of the pilot would be a neat touch! http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz Something to play with at lunchtime! Wohhh Very impressive, congratulation, it is a must of art. as an extension we could use the (coming) launchbar function, to take off, not from the Nimitz, but from a tower (somewhere... in Germany) Aha - there's a 'launchbar' coming soon is there? I was wondering about how to model catapult launches and glider tow-launches. What I tried to do (but failed) with the Colditz glider was to give it a small short-lived (and invisible) non-throttleable rocket engine to simulate the launch catapult. I calculated that about 1866N (that's about 420lb) for 2.3 seconds would do. You can see my attempt (commented out) in the 20050525 glider FDM release. Something wasn't working though - any ideas anyone? Keep posted, I have some neat plans for the model, especially animating the wind indicating ribbon (not included in the latest release). Thanks, Josh. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 09:51 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz Something to play with at lunchtime! Wohhh Very impressive, congratulation, it is a must of art. as an extension we could use the (coming) launchbar function, to take off, not from the Nimitz, but from a tower (somewhere... in Germany) Aha - there's a 'launchbar' coming soon is there? I was wondering about how to model catapult launches and glider tow-launches. What I tried to do (but failed) with the Colditz glider was to give it a small short-lived (and invisible) non-throttleable rocket engine to simulate the launch catapult. I calculated that about 1866N (that's about 420lb) for 2.3 seconds would do. You can see my attempt (commented out) in the 20050525 glider FDM release. Something wasn't working though - any ideas anyone? Keep posted, I have some neat plans for the model, especially animating the wind indicating ribbon (not included in the latest release). Thanks, Josh. Steve Yes that is an other good way. Before getting the JSBSim carrier landing patch , i made something like that for a personal F4U-1D corsair (which is today partly coming from .mdl model and cannot be GNU i am working on it slowly, very slowly). A little Rocket, and a very limited tank capacity. After many tests and crashs that was successful, my tuning was good == push and quantity. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 01:46, Josh Babcock wrote: Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le jeudi 02 juin 2005 20:16 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: Not quite done yet, still need some stuff in the cockpit, landing gear and some animations. I'm not planning on putting in a pilot, though if enough people want one I can give it a shot. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz OK, I give up! Unzipped .tgz into 'Models' directory of colditz glider. Moved the .rgb and .ac files to the 'Models' directory itself (they were in a 'Colditz' subdirectory otherwise). Checked that 'colditz-set.xml' mentioned Models/colditz.ac (it did). Ran fgfs. No 3D model. What did I do wrong please? Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 14:08 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : OK, I give up! Unzipped .tgz into 'Models' directory of colditz glider. Moved the .rgb and .ac files to the 'Models' directory itself (they were in a 'Colditz' subdirectory otherwise). Checked that 'colditz-set.xml' mentioned Models/colditz.ac (it did). Ran fgfs. No 3D model. What did I do wrong please? Steve. You should have model pathAircraft/colditz/Models/colditz.ac/path /model Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 14:31, Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 14:08 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : OK, I give up! You should have model pathAircraft/colditz/Models/colditz.ac/path /model Yeah, I had that in the 'colditz-set.xml' file. I noticed that the c172p directory has the path in c172p-set.xml pointing to Aircraft/c172p/Models/c172p.xml and that file contained a pointer to c172.ac along with a load of animation stuff. I tried using that system for the colditz glider, but it didn't work either. When I say I have no 3D model, I mean from the pilot's seat I can't see the 'plane. I assume I should be able to see the 'plane from there! I didn't try an external view. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 15:23 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 14:31, Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 14:08 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : OK, I give up! You should have model pathAircraft/colditz/Models/colditz.ac/path /model Yeah, I had that in the 'colditz-set.xml' file. I noticed that the c172p directory has the path in c172p-set.xml pointing to Aircraft/c172p/Models/c172p.xml and that file contained a pointer to c172.ac along with a load of animation stuff. I tried using that system for the colditz glider, but it didn't work either. When I say I have no 3D model, I mean from the pilot's seat I can't see the 'plane. I assume I should be able to see the 'plane from there! I didn't try an external view. Steve. Oh, yes it is only because of the panel offset == x=256 you can adjust it a negative value -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 17:02 +0200, Gerard ROBIN a crit : Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 15:23 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 14:31, Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 14:08 +0100, Steve Hosgood a crit : OK, I give up! You should have model pathAircraft/colditz/Models/colditz.ac/path /model Yeah, I had that in the 'colditz-set.xml' file. I noticed that the c172p directory has the path in c172p-set.xml pointing to Aircraft/c172p/Models/c172p.xml and that file contained a pointer to c172.ac along with a load of animation stuff. I tried using that system for the colditz glider, but it didn't work either. When I say I have no 3D model, I mean from the pilot's seat I can't see the 'plane. I assume I should be able to see the 'plane from there! I didn't try an external view. Steve. Oh, yes it is only because of the panel offset == x=256 you can adjust it a negative value I have looked at my colditz-set I added view internal archive=ytrue/internal config !-- x/y/z == right/up/back -- x-offset-m archive=y0/x-offset-m y-offset-m archive=y1.5/y-offset-m z-offset-m archive=y4.4/z-offset-m pitch-offset-deg archive=y-8.0/pitch-offset-deg /config /view and keep panel pathAircraft/colditz/Panels/glider-panel.xml/path visibility archive=ytrue/visibility x-offset256/x-offset /panel -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le vendredi 03 juin 2005 19:42 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: OK, model's done, same address. Now I'm going to do the animation XML. If I'm really cool I'll be able to make the wind ribbon look good. Otherwise, just controls and control surfaces. Also, I didn't know what the rudder pedals looked like, so I left them out. I would assume that it's just a stick on a pivot which would be super easy to add. I'm not sure about historical accuracy though. Of course, the entire inside of the cockpit is a WAG anyway. Thoughts? Josh Oh, it is better and better, Only a little PB with texture wood-dark which crashed my fgfs, solved by a read write of that texture in Gimp. AND may be Colditz need to be scaled, it seems very tall. -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Josh Babcock wrote: Steve Hosgood wrote: On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 02:37, Josh Babcock wrote: I'll see what more I can deduce tonight. Steve Didn't get anything much done, sadly, but I have taken a look at your fuselage images, Josh. Nice work! Just an update. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz1.jpg http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz2.jpg One small observation. It's hard to be sure, but I think the photos of the glider replica show that the riser forming the back of the pilot's seat is also the centre bolting-on point for the wings, and therefore comes to a narrow flat-top under the wing, not to a sharp point as you've modelled it. Looks like P.Reid's drawing (body_glider_plans.htm) shows it like that too. It would also seem that the wing overhangs forward of the top-of- the-seat bolt-on point too. This is where I assume the passenger was squashed in. He gets a bit of side-to-side view in there, but not much. He wouldn't see much at night anyway. Other opinions may differ of course. Annoyingly, the photos from the 1999 flight on the 'fiddler's green' site don't really have enough detail in that area to be sure of anything. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d You are correct. The pointy bit is there as a reference point for me to place the wing, and will be hidden once the wing goes on. It also saves a few polys :) Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Not quite done yet, still need some stuff in the cockpit, landing gear and some animations. I'm not planning on putting in a pilot, though if enough people want one I can give it a shot. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Le jeudi 02 juin 2005 20:16 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: Not quite done yet, still need some stuff in the cockpit, landing gear and some animations. I'm not planning on putting in a pilot, though if enough people want one I can give it a shot. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz Josh Wohhh Very impressive, congratulation, it is a must of art. as an extension we could use the (coming) launchbar function, to take off, not from the Nimitz, but from a tower (somewhere... in Germany) -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Gerard ROBIN wrote: Le jeudi 02 juin 2005 20:16 -0400, Josh Babcock a crit : Josh Babcock wrote: Not quite done yet, still need some stuff in the cockpit, landing gear and some animations. I'm not planning on putting in a pilot, though if enough people want one I can give it a shot. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz.tgz Josh Wohhh Very impressive, congratulation, it is a must of art. as an extension we could use the (coming) launchbar function, to take off, not from the Nimitz, but from a tower (somewhere... in Germany) Keep posted, I have some neat plans for the model, especially animating the wind indicating ribbon (not included in the latest release). Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider MkII
On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 17:57, Martin Spott wrote: BTW, I don't remember if these URL's have already been mentioned: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/naziprison/glider.html http://www.colditz-4c.com/glider-l.jpe I think they were mentioned before. I had already seen them as part of my researches before starting the FDM, but some readers may not, so thanks for the links anyway. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider MkII
Folks: As most of you know, I've recently been working on a FDM for the Colditz Glider. I was surprised and encouraged by the amount of comment that the original thread generated. I've not been sitting still, and have now got a second version that you may like to play with: ftp://tallyho.bc.nu/pub/steve/flightgear/colditz_20050525.tgz Changes are as follows: After *much* grovelling the net, I eventually discovered a reputable claim (from Michael Selig at UIUC) that the Colditz Glider used the classic 1930's Clark YH wing profile. This ties up with a comment from P.Reid's The Latter Days at Colditz to the effect that the bottom surface of the wing was flat (most of it is indeed flat in the Clark YH). So I went looking for lift and drag coefficients for the Clark YH, and found them after a long search in a tutorial document on the web originating from Strathclyde University in Scotland. The new Colditz Glider FDM now uses these stated figures for the Clark YH, and though I don't have proper stall hysteresis figures for that wing, it seems almost impossible to fly the Colditz Glider model so that the airfoil actually does stall anyway. As airspeed decreases, the glider just loses lift to the point of mushing through the air below about 32 knots. With the machine flying normally, its best-case rate of descent is about 4 or 5 ft/sec, agreeing fairly well with the estimates of the original designers in Colditz. Likewise, its glide ratio is about 18:1 as estimated by the pilot who flew the replica in 1999 or 2000. I've adjusted my estimate of the locations of the CG and locations of the pilot and passenger after measuring around the reproduction of the original plans. I've played with (but commented out) an attempt to model the launch catapult with a very short-lived rocket engine. Basically, I need a rocket with a burn-time of 2.2 seconds and a thrust of 1866N (that's about 420 pounds in Flintstones units). However, my attempts have failed so far. Suggestions welcome. For instance, what are the units of fuel capacity for the tanks and fuel usage for the engine? [ Presumably tank capacity is in American Gallons or maybe Barrels, and fuel usage is in Bushels per Nanofortnight, eh? :-) No chance of litres per second or cubic metres per second around here I suppose? ). The next version might even include a 3D model. Josh Babcock is working on one right now. Thanks, Josh. Whatever - enjoy escaping from Colditz. You should be able to make the intended landing site on the far side of the Mulde from the castle roof with height to spare if the prisoners' estimated distance to that landing site was right. Does anyone here actually live in or near Colditz? Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider MkII
Steve Hosgood wrote: Does anyone here actually live in or near Colditz? Our long-time Getting Started manual maintainer Michal Basler lives in that region. BTW, I don't remember if these URL's have already been mentioned: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/naziprison/glider.html http://www.colditz-4c.com/glider-l.jpe Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 02:37, Josh Babcock wrote: I'll see what more I can deduce tonight. Steve Didn't get anything much done, sadly, but I have taken a look at your fuselage images, Josh. Nice work! Just an update. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz1.jpg http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz2.jpg One small observation. It's hard to be sure, but I think the photos of the glider replica show that the riser forming the back of the pilot's seat is also the centre bolting-on point for the wings, and therefore comes to a narrow flat-top under the wing, not to a sharp point as you've modelled it. Looks like P.Reid's drawing (body_glider_plans.htm) shows it like that too. It would also seem that the wing overhangs forward of the top-of- the-seat bolt-on point too. This is where I assume the passenger was squashed in. He gets a bit of side-to-side view in there, but not much. He wouldn't see much at night anyway. Other opinions may differ of course. Annoyingly, the photos from the 1999 flight on the 'fiddler's green' site don't really have enough detail in that area to be sure of anything. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 02:37, Josh Babcock wrote: I'll see what more I can deduce tonight. Steve Didn't get anything much done, sadly, but I have taken a look at your fuselage images, Josh. Nice work! Just an update. http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz1.jpg http://jrbabcock.home.comcast.net/flightgear/colditz/colditz2.jpg One small observation. It's hard to be sure, but I think the photos of the glider replica show that the riser forming the back of the pilot's seat is also the centre bolting-on point for the wings, and therefore comes to a narrow flat-top under the wing, not to a sharp point as you've modelled it. Looks like P.Reid's drawing (body_glider_plans.htm) shows it like that too. It would also seem that the wing overhangs forward of the top-of- the-seat bolt-on point too. This is where I assume the passenger was squashed in. He gets a bit of side-to-side view in there, but not much. He wouldn't see much at night anyway. Other opinions may differ of course. Annoyingly, the photos from the 1999 flight on the 'fiddler's green' site don't really have enough detail in that area to be sure of anything. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d You are correct. The pointy bit is there as a reference point for me to place the wing, and will be hidden once the wing goes on. It also saves a few polys :) Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
I've just come across a few more details in: http://www.chicagolandglidercouncil.com/newsletter_files/CLGCNewsletterFeb02.pdf There's a comment by the pilot who flew the replica, to the effect that the glide ratio was about 18:1 That's pretty impressive! There's also a photo of the glider just off the ground on the lauch tow, and a comment that the wings were built by a Mr John Lee, who was also the pilot for the TV programme. Another comment (backing up Jon Stockill's statement) is that the glider was in the Imperial War Museum, London for a while, and was moved to their aircraft collection at Duxford (Cambridgeshire, England) later. Annoyingly, that's about 6 hours driving from here, or I'd go over there with a camera. ** Research is revealing that 99% of the info on the Colditz glider on the web is a copy of some part of someone else's page! The link mentioned above is a pleasant change from that! Here's another pleasant discovery: http://www.aae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html This claims that the wing on the Colditz Glider is a Clark YH which is great because that's a standard wing and its lift / drag / stall characteristics are documented. Can't find much on the web, but there's some aircraft design books down in the university library that I will be interested to check out Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 18:52, Josh Babcock wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: You can always use sound as an indication of speed. ;-) No smiley needed - when flying in seat of the pants mode, that's one of the important instruments at your disposal. Record the sound of wind ripping across the microphone, and replay this with different volume when the glider is flying. =) It's a bit more complicated: the centre frequency of the noise distribution should move too. But, yeah, the principle is good. I'd guess the same idea would be true of a more normal glider with a canopy too. And you could indicate altitude by looping a guy's voice going oshitoshitoshit The lower you go, the faster and louder it gets. Excellent! Seriously, I think the wind noise thing is a really good idea. It's not confined to the Colditz glider though. All gliders should have such things modelled, but I'm not sure where they go in terms of programming. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 18:30, Josh Babcock wrote: So do you all want me to go ahead with a model? We can work out instrumentation issues later. Please do. Those .gif files on the URL I mentioned yesterday are pretty much all the information published on the shape of the thing, though Pat Reid's book does mention a few more dimensions. For instance: 1) Width of aileron = 14 inches (from which length of aileron must be about 14 ft to reach the stated aileron area of 16.5sq ft, allowing for the rounding-off of the shape near the wingtip). I'll see what more I can deduce tonight. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Have you got that Plans: http://www.ean.co.uk/Data/Bygones/History/Article/WW2/Colditz/html/body_glider_plans.htm -- Gerard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 11:34, Gerard ROBIN wrote: http://www.ean.co.uk/Data/Bygones/History/Article/WW2/Colditz/html/body_glider_plans.htm That's a straight scan of the plans exactly as presented in P. Reid's The Latter Days at Colditz. Much the same as the .gif files I've referenced earlier, but with the addition of the front elevation. Useful, but probably illegal just to publish a scan out of a book like that! Josh - take a local copy of that file before the copyright nazis take the site down! Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 10:11, Steve Hosgood (that's me) wrote: Width of aileron = 14 inches (from which length of aileron must be about 14 ft to reach the stated aileron area of 16.5sq ft, allowing for the rounding-off of the shape near the wingtip). I'll see what more I can deduce tonight. Steve Er - wait a minute! The entire wing was only 15 ft long! That can't be right! The diagram must imply that the *total* aileron area was 16.5 sq ft. That would make each aileron about 7ft long, slightly less than half the length of the wing. Which is closer to what we see on the diagrams, but seems a little long even so. Steve ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d OK, well keep the data coming. I will start with the fuselage, that should be safe. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Gerard ROBIN wrote: Have you got that Plans: http://www.ean.co.uk/Data/Bygones/History/Article/WW2/Colditz/html/body_glider_plans.htm Yup. Just googled that one in fact. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Over the winter of 1944/1945 certain Allied POWs were imprisoned in Colditz Castle (east of Chemnitz, Saxony). Some of the British prisoners got desperate enough to build a glider in an attic. They never launched because the war was effectively over by the time the machine was ready, but in 1999, Britain's Channel 4 TV channel commisioned a replica to be built and flown. It flew surprisingly well. I've recently been working on a FDM for the Colditz Glider. If you'd like to try it, I've put it up for comments on: ftp://tallyho.bc.nu/pub/steve/flightgear/colditz_20050518.tgz I initially modelled the glider by entering the known physical dimensions of the machine into aeromatic and claiming that it was a light aircraft with 0 engines rather than a glider. It was, after all built of floorboards and random junk covered with bedsheets doped with porridge! So, it's rather heavy for its size (110kg/240lb) and was expected to carry two (70kg/160lb) men. My FDM correctly models the stated stall speed of about 28 knots and sink rate of 240fpm. I have personal experience with slow-flying gliders in the shape of early 1980's hang-gliders and so I've added modelling for a fairly serious nose-dive on stalling the glider, plus an entertaining amount of ground-effect to make landings resemble what I recall from the hang-glider days. All the photos and plans of the original Colditz glider show it to have had almost no dihedral on its wings. The photos of the 1999 replica show that this was the case for the copy too. My FDM has taken that into account too, and indeed you'll find when flying it that it's pretty unstable in roll. ** I would not have liked to have been the pilot who took this thing off the chapel roof in Colditz, at night, on its maiden and only flight. Stall it below 100m (300ft) from the ground and you're dead! It switches from flying like a glider to flying like a piano almost instantly. Oh, and 100m (300ft) is your launch height above the valley floor. The original glider had no instruments of course. For this model, I've pinched the instruments panel from the Schweizer 2-33 that was already in Flightgear. I did this to give me some idea of airspeed, to compensate for not having the wind in my face whilst flying! I did however re-scale the airspeed indicator to concentrate on the 10 - 90 knot range. ( I suspect that the Colditz glider would fall apart at much higher velocities! ) Disclaimer: This is a toy. It's fun, and probably isn't too far wrong from modelling the real Colditz Glider. However, I've never even *seen* the Colditz Glider replica (in the Imperial War Museum now, apparently) far less flown it. So I don't know. Please try it and if you have any suggestions, I'll be happy to take them on board. I'm expecting complaints about the stall characteristics which are probably too savage, but then, hang-gliders stall hard, so why not this machine? There's no 3D model, sorry. Suggestions for how to do one, or (better) offers of help gratefully received! Enjoy! Steve Hosgood. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: Disclaimer: This is a toy. It's fun, and probably isn't too far wrong from modelling the real Colditz Glider. However, I've never even *seen* the Colditz Glider replica (in the Imperial War Museum now, apparently) far less flown it. So I don't know. It is - assuming it's not been moved it's right up on the top floor. There a few rather dark photos at the end of this collection: http://photos.stockill.org.uk/c1955.html If the original was anything like the rebuild then it really was a remarkable achievement. (Obviously with the rebuild they tried to stick to similar materials, but did have the advantage the Please try it and if you have any suggestions, I'll be happy to take them on board. I'm expecting complaints about the stall characteristics which are probably too savage, but then, hang-gliders stall hard, so why not this machine? There's no 3D model, sorry. Suggestions for how to do one, or (better) offers of help gratefully received! How much information do you have? Unfortunately I'm the other end of the country, so can't easily drop in to the war museum again, but I suspect they'll be the best source of info. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 12:10, Jon Stockill wrote: Steve Hosgood wrote: Disclaimer: This is a toy [...] I've never even *seen* the Colditz Glider replica (in the Imperial War Museum now, apparently) [...] assuming it's not been moved it's right up on the top floor. There a few rather dark photos at the end of this collection: http://photos.stockill.org.uk/c1955.html Hmm - the thumbnails aren't displaying for me. It makes it very difficult to find the one I'm looking for. If the original was anything like the rebuild then it really was a remarkable achievement. (Obviously with the rebuild they tried to stick to similar materials, but did have the advantage the Unfinished sentence? They did have the probable advantage (not shown on TV) of flying the thing from a nice high tow launch with a radio control pilot and a sack of cement for ballast! That way they'd have known if it flew at all before risking the real pilot who flew it for the cameras. It was nice to see that some of the the surviving POW designers and builders (Best and Goldfinch) were there to see their plane fly at last. Sadly, Jack Best died only months later. Please try it and if you have any suggestions, I'll be happy to take them on board. I'm expecting complaints about the stall characteristics which are probably too savage, but then, hang-gliders stall hard, so why not this machine? There's no 3D model, sorry. Suggestions for how to do one, or (better) offers of help gratefully received! How much information do you have? Unfortunately I'm the other end of the country, so can't easily drop in to the war museum again, but I suspect they'll be the best source of info. I've got my copy of Colditz: The Latter Days that I've had since I was a teenager. It contains a basic plan and elevations of the plane, but no details of (say) airfoil shape. It does talk a bit about materials used though. I scrounged around the net and came up with some photos of the original machine and the replica both on the ground and in flight and one of the jubilant ex POWs jumping up and down in celebration. Nothing scientific though. I'll do it again and publish the URLs, but I've not got time right now. I've got just one URL to hand: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/colditz/info/info.htm This shows the War Museum exhibit, and much more. * A while ago, I did my own calculations of what would happen to a 250kg glider when thrown off a 20m runway by a bathtub full of a ton of concrete dropped over the side. However, later I found other estimates suggesting 1800lb of concrete would have been used (which is more like 800kg) and that the runway (the roof of the chapel) was probably nearer 18m long, not 20m as I'd estimated. Not sure what the truth was, but assuming the latter conditions, the glider leaves the roof dangerously close to stall speed in nil-wind conditions. They'd have needed a slight headwind to give them a fighting chance in the thing, I reckon. I suppose I ought to provide for a very short-lived and weak rocket engine for the Colditz Glider model, so you could try taking off from stationary on an elevated surface. Who knows how to set rocket burn-time and thrust? BTW: If any eastern German subscribers on this list could do a detailed scenery add-on for Colditz castle and the surrounding countryside, it would be appreciated (hint, hint) :-) How many people from tu-chemnitz.de have we got on here I wonder? Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 12:10, Jon Stockill wrote: Steve Hosgood wrote: Disclaimer: This is a toy [...] I've never even *seen* the Colditz Glider replica (in the Imperial War Museum now, apparently) [...] assuming it's not been moved it's right up on the top floor. There a few rather dark photos at the end of this collection: http://photos.stockill.org.uk/c1955.html Hmm - the thumbnails aren't displaying for me. It makes it very difficult to find the one I'm looking for. I bet you're running norton internet security aren't you :-) You'll need to fix your ad blocker. If the original was anything like the rebuild then it really was a remarkable achievement. (Obviously with the rebuild they tried to stick to similar materials, but did have the advantage the Unfinished sentence? Hmmm, possibly my mouse going a bit mad - I said did have the advantage of having new rather than recycled materials. I've got my copy of Colditz: The Latter Days that I've had since I was a teenager. It contains a basic plan and elevations of the plane, but no details of (say) airfoil shape. It does talk a bit about materials used though. I scrounged around the net and came up with some photos of the original machine and the replica both on the ground and in flight and one of the jubilant ex POWs jumping up and down in celebration. Nothing scientific though. I'll do it again and publish the URLs, but I've not got time right now. I've got just one URL to hand: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/colditz/info/info.htm The diagram on that page would give you a starting point. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 14:42, Jon Stockill wrote: I bet you're running norton internet security aren't you :-) Nope: Mozilla 1.7.3 on linux. You'll need to fix your ad blocker. Wasn't aware I was running with anything much more than standard Mozilla defaults. I'll take a look sometime. [...] did have the advantage of having new rather than recycled materials. And presumably they used proper tools, not home-made ones. Nothing scientific though. I'll do it again and publish the URLs, but I've not got time right now. I've got just one URL to hand: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/colditz/info/info.htm The diagram on that page would give you a starting point. Yes, well, that's exactly what I *did* use as a starting point! The diagrams in Pat Reid's book included the front elevation as well, plus make it a bit more clear that the area of the rudder was 16.6sq ft, not 166sq ft(!) which is what it seems to say on the reproduction diagrams on that web page (and others). Next time you're in the War Museum, see if you can work out where the passenger sat. I've assumed for now that he was squished in behind the pilot, but it's a guess. He can't have gone side-by side with the pilot, the fuselage is too narrow. Also, next time you're there, take a set of giant external calipers (!) to the wing and try and get several readings of wing thickness starting at the leading edge and working back to the trailing edge every foot or so along the chord. Then we could try and find a close match amongst the NACA standard airfoils and thus get a closer idea of lift vs. alpha and drag vs. alpha and stall characteristics from the published figures. Pat Reid already stated (in Latter Days) that the bottom of the wing was flat, so just the thicknesses ought to suffice. Chances are that Best and Goldfinch used a standard airfoil from the book in the castle library. It's just a case of finding which one. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: Wasn't aware I was running with anything much more than standard Mozilla defaults. I'll take a look sometime. Hmm, very strange - it's usually windows users that have a problem, and it's only certain versions of norton (I'm the sysadmin for that photos site btw - www.fotopic.net). And presumably they used proper tools, not home-made ones. I guess that depends what they were able to borrow :-) Yes, well, that's exactly what I *did* use as a starting point! The I meant a starting point for a 3d model. I'm not the worlds greatest 3d modeller, but if I get some time this weekend I'll try and make a start on that - it's a relatively simple shape, so possibly good for me learning a bit more about blender - I'm running into problems with the Grob 115 model I've started, mainly due to lack of skill in blender, but also due to a lack of detailed info. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Josh Babcock wrote: It doesn't look like it would be too hard to do a 3D model. Not having to do instruments would only make it easier. I would suggest making a custom HUD instead of grafting fake instruments onto the model. If there's interest I think I could hack out a pretty nice textured model in a few days. Go for it - I don't see my attempt being that quick :-) -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 15:24, Josh Babcock wrote: It doesn't look like it would be too hard to do a 3D model. Not having to do instruments would only make it easier. I would suggest making a custom HUD instead of grafting fake instruments onto the model. A HUD is *so* not 1944! Point taken of course, but I already had the 2-33 instrument panel to hand from the Schweizer, so apart from changing the range of the ASI, I kept it as is. Complete with yaw-string (which might be a valid Colditz 'instrument' anyway). You'll notice a non-working digital ASI crept onto the panel somehow, I've not spotted where that's coming from or I'd remove it! If there's interest I think I could hack out a pretty nice textured model in a few days. That would be superb. You and Jon Stockill (see elsewhere in this thread) could do with getting in touch with each other since you've both indicated an interest in this. The external appearance of the Colditz Glider seems to be a fine check pattern of blue and white - standard POW issue bedsheets I believe. The wing struts are wood. Floorboards again, I presume. Aerofoiled and polished judging by the photos of the replica, but not so obvious that the original was so well finished. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
You'll notice a non-working digital ASI crept onto the panel somehow, I've not spotted where that's coming from or I'd remove it! That's the Netto Variometer I believe. It works. Dave ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 16:43, Dave Culp wrote: You'll notice a non-working digital ASI crept onto the panel somehow, I've not spotted where that's coming from or I'd remove it! That's the Netto Variometer I believe. It works. Thanks, Dave. One of yours, I believe! No offence intended, but I've just removed it from what will become the next release of the Colditz Glider. It's a bit anachronistic! The other instruments were at least available in 1944/45 even if not fitted to this particular machine. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
That's the Netto Variometer I believe. It works. No offence intended, but I've just removed it from what will become the next release of the Colditz Glider. It's a bit anachronistic! The other instruments were at least available in 1944/45 even if not fitted to this particular machine. Good idea. I don't think the Colditz Glider could do much soaring anyway :) Dave ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Steve Hosgood wrote: On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 16:43, Dave Culp wrote: You'll notice a non-working digital ASI crept onto the panel somehow, I've not spotted where that's coming from or I'd remove it! That's the Netto Variometer I believe. It works. Thanks, Dave. One of yours, I believe! No offence intended, but I've just removed it from what will become the next release of the Colditz Glider. It's a bit anachronistic! The other instruments were at least available in 1944/45 even if not fitted to this particular machine. Steve. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d So do you all want me to go ahead with a model? We can work out instrumentation issues later. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
On May 18, 2005 06:25 am, Steve Hosgood wrote: The original glider had no instruments of course. For this model, I've pinched the instruments panel from the Schweizer 2-33 that was already in Flightgear. I did this to give me some idea of airspeed, to compensate for not having the wind in my face whilst flying! You can always use sound as an indication of speed. ;-) Record the sound of wind ripping across the microphone, and replay this with different volume when the glider is flying. =) Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Colditz Glider
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On May 18, 2005 06:25 am, Steve Hosgood wrote: The original glider had no instruments of course. For this model, I've pinched the instruments panel from the Schweizer 2-33 that was already in Flightgear. I did this to give me some idea of airspeed, to compensate for not having the wind in my face whilst flying! You can always use sound as an indication of speed. ;-) Record the sound of wind ripping across the microphone, and replay this with different volume when the glider is flying. =) Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d And you could indicate altitude by looping a guy's voice going oshitoshitoshit The lower you go, the faster and louder it gets. Seriously, I think the wind noise thing is a really good idea. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
