Re: [Flightgear-devel] 737 autoflight modeling
Jon S Berndt said: Regarding a 737 autopilot, I thought I'd write some comments, here. Having discussed with Dave C. recently some of the autoflight and/or flight management features of the 737NG airliner, I have investigated using the JSBSim components to model some aspects of these systems. I found that these systems can be modeled with the suite of components offered as part of the JSBSim flight control system model. However, while attempting to model a small part of the flight management capabilities dealing with flight level changes, I found that the logic for the system can get pretty complicated, quickly. Modeling the actual published procedure is not really that difficult. However, modeling the effects of inappropriate command sequences is, frankly, a total WAG. Having done actual flight software modeling, I can say with confidence that writing a simulated flight management system for the 737 would likely approach the amount of work required to write a thesis! :-) First of all, due to the unavailability of the actual flight management software, a guess would have to be made using reference material such as a flight manual. A quick search of the web indicates that flight manuals for currently in-service airliners are not simply given out. Security concerns have limited availability to those with a valid reason. Given that, I also wonder about how smart it would be to model such aspects of airliner operation too closely. In any case, I intend to work with Dave C. to model at least parts of the flight management system as an exercise. Would something like one of these help? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=4783item=5522542523rd=1ssPageName=WDVW http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=4783item=5522541231rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=40051item=2270923076rd=1 I've seen various boeing manuals available on ebay in the past. Trading these manuals apparently is not restricted in any way, but you are probably right about obtaining them from a source other than where these originate (from Boeing customers). That might make it difficult to find an actual NG manual, since they might not be receiving version 2 sets quite yet. BTW, it doesn't seem to me that modeling this sort of thing in a flight simulator would produce, in and of itself, a threat of terrorism so I wouldn't worry too much about that. More than likely, a plane full of passengers will be much too savvy to allow a hijacker take the controls ever again. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 737 autoflight modeling
Jon S Berndt wrote: First of all, due to the unavailability of the actual flight management software, a guess would have to be made using reference material such as a flight manual. A quick search of the web indicates that flight manuals for currently in-service airliners are not simply given out. Security concerns have limited availability to those with a valid reason. Given that, I also wonder about how smart it would be to model such aspects of airliner operation too closely. *Personally*, I would NOT consider the latter a factor, simply because it will take a lng time for FlightGear to really become THAT _real_, regardless of what you might be able to achieve within the near future. This is for a fairly simple reason: there are numerous other products which do really a VERY DECENT job at resembling systems, behaviour etc. some of them are even used by real life pilots for training, e.g. Wilco's 767 PIC: http://www.wilcopub.com/support_767PIC.html ... while merely an *addon* to M$ FS 2004 - is said to be really realistic - even though it only runs within (and hence has to live with the limitations of) the Micro$oft flight simulator. You can even get their manuals - WITHOUT the software: http://www.wilcopub.com/extra_767PIC.html And this is just one example of MANY - there are others products such as Aerowinx PS1: http://aerowinx.com/ which is not even called a flight simulator but rather a procedure trainer, it resembles even all of the systems/components of a 744, so products like these are available to ANYBODY who's willing to pay the bill - with NO restriction WHATSOEVER ! Regarding your comment concerning the fear to possibly create software that might be used by 'terrorists': Without meaning to offend anybody, but I highly doubt that FlightGear will be able to compete with any of the mentioned more advanced products within anytime soon - even if one particular aircraft suddently gets a realistic autoflight system ... this is just ONE piece of a whole number of systems, so I WOULD DARE TO *GUARANTEE* that FlightGear is not going to be used for 'training purposes' within the next years - be it by authorized or non-authorized people ... A somewhat more realistic autoflight system would not even be close to what other products can do already - and I am not even talking yet of the really professional (CBT) stuff that airlines/flight schools use to train professional pilots And all this is still *available* - it's merely a matter of investing the money - you can go directly to shops like: http://www.aerosim.com/bizjet/biz_atrnsprt.htm ...and get whatever you want - Jeppesen doesn't seem to restrict access to their training materials either. (and there are soo MANY others !) Or purchase such products directly from the manufacturer: http://www.wicat.com/flight/other/introfms.htm http://www.wicat.com/flight/simstrns/md11fms.htm And even if some American companies now place restrictions on the access to such material, it's still available in pretty much any other country. (civil) airplanes aren't weapons by definition... it's a matter of how you USE things that defines whether you are using a weapon or simply a normal tool. On the other hand what you are bringing up here is indeed a hot debate that was particularly pushed because of 9/11 - after it became obvious that the terrorists also used flight simulators for their training ... If you're interested in these discussions and the opinions of the professionals, take a look at pprune.org and search for flight simulator - you'll find threads where people wonder whether simulators are getting too real because of the 9/11 attacks. And no, I don't think this going to happen that soon - and certainly not for FlightGear in particular, there are too many other shortcomings that FlightGear users seem to want to see addressed before: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topicforum=198topic_id=260mode=full Also, regarding the whole terrorist issue that you mentioned: terrorists usually have the funding available to really use *professional tools*, so the 9/11 terrorists did not only fool around with a version of Micro$oft's flight simulator, but also attended REAL flight training, they even used fixed base sims... FlightGear is not going to become interesting for that group of people! So, ultimately a potential terrorist would much rather decide to book a 'normal' typerating course than bother playing around with FlightGear, typeratings are also easily available ... (okay, not in the US ANYMORE) http://www.pea.com/courses/gct.asp And then you can of course still get used materials on ebay ... That's where I got most of my AOMs - pprune itself is otherwise also a good source of information: http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php simply use keywords such as autoflight lnav vnav FMA in order to find the relevant threads for your project. And what can't be found, can still be ASKED
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 737 autoflight modeling
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:55:54 +0200 Boris Koenig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, regarding the whole terrorist issue that you mentioned: terrorists usually have the funding available to really use *professional tools*, so the 9/11 terrorists did not only fool around with a version of Micro$oft's flight simulator, but also attended REAL flight training, they even used fixed base sims... FlightGear is not going to become interesting for that group of people! Yeah (it sounds like you've considered these questions before ;-) I agree with your logic. But, it can make one a little queasy, nonetheless: I believe I recall that MSFS was used by some of the 9/11 perpetrators. I do think it's a good idea to reiterate that, as always, we should make sure that whatever information is used in this endeavor is based on genuinely publicly available material. I would suggest to coordinate your efforts then with Harald Johnsen, who's working on the visual/logical implementation of the CDU/FMC: http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-devel%40flightgear.org/msg26056.html http://www.chez.com/tipunch/flightgear/index.html Maybe you guys can save some of the work by combining your efforts :-) Sounds like a good idea. Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] 737 autoflight modeling
On Friday 24 September 2004 19:14, Jon S Berndt wrote: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:55:54 +0200 Boris Koenig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, regarding the whole terrorist issue that you mentioned: terrorists usually have the funding available to really use *professional tools*, so the 9/11 terrorists did not only fool around with a version of Micro$oft's flight simulator, but also attended REAL flight training, they even used fixed base sims... FlightGear is not going to become interesting for that group of people! Yeah (it sounds like you've considered these questions before ;-) I agree with your logic. But, it can make one a little queasy, nonetheless: I believe I recall that MSFS was used by some of the 9/11 perpetrators. Security through censorship has never worked. It's never worked through obscurity either. Furthermore, the 'censors' don't have a monopoly on clever minds either - the times when governments, or even commercial enterprises, had the best minds working for them never existed. Even furtherermore;) the growth of the internet as a communication medium has increased collaborative working at an explosive rate (hmm... Freudian slip?) enabling groups of relatively mediocre minds to achieve high standards. Terrorism can't be 'beaten' - you can't 'win' against it, especially if it's reactionary terrorism. Trying to 'beat' reactionary terrorism only ensures a stream of new recruits from those who see some validity in the terrorists point of view. I think that the only way to deal with reactionary terrorism is to deal with what is motivating those who resort to terrorism. No offence intended to anyone but I'm afraid that the word 'terrorism' has been hijacked by politicians for the sole purpose of keeping them in their positions of power and authority, seeing as if they were rated by their performance alone, they'd get the sack. If I have offended anyone: Sorry. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
