Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: ALERT: Losing the DAFIF

2004-08-14 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:26:54 -, Jim wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Melchior FRANZ said:
 
  * Peter L -- Saturday 14 August 2004 07:31:
That's a bit euphemistic. 
  
   Yeah, I was a bit more polite than normal. Just put it down to not
   knowing you guys yet...
  
  No problem. And I didn't want to make it sound as if you pardoned a
  criminal. :-)
  
  I just wanted to make clear that this was *not* some unaware pilot
  who cuts the cable. He knew the cable was there. He wanted to fly
  under it and make a nice film, which was common practice in this
  unit at Aviano/Italy. Even their commander did it (and lost his
  command because of that).
  
  The cable was around 85 to 95 m AGL (~300 ft), and the minimum
  altitude allowed in this area was 150 m (~500 ft) at this time. This
  was afterwards raised to 600 m (~2000 ft).

..up here (Northern Norway), this was accepted by us (civilians and
servicemen alike) as an evil neccessary to national security, until the
Russians defeated and threw out the Soviet Union.  

..then, the pro-EU types _continued_ this cover-up practice.
The scale, methods etc of these cover-up stories is comparable 
to covering up genocide.

..and, the same people argued we muuust join the EU because Norway is
such a vulnerable little oil sheikhdom just next to the Russian Bear.
Just who cancelled WWIII on us?

  Ref.: http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9803/10/italian.crash.report/
 
 The U.S. Marine motto is The few, the proud,  not the most
 intelligent :-)
 
 I think the few is important.  Unfortunately, it's hard to train
 folks to be potential killers,  and expect civility and common sense
 to always prevail.

..in warfare, you wanna wound, not kill, a femur hit 2/3 up the thigh 
is the ideal, it's scary and hurts like hell, so you'll wet your pants,
it'll put you the enemy GI in hospital for about half a year and out of
action for the next half, and leaves no permanent damage, so it, and the
alternatives, teaches you, my enemy GI, to move, predictably.  ;-) 

..and, just how many of your buddies carries your strecher, etc?  ;-)
Killing is counter productive in combat and warfare and Always a Sin.

 We've got a training field nearby and this is a fairly rural area.  I
 can say that I haven't seen anything marginal come from there.  The
 private jets are another story.  I'm amazed at the crap they get away
 with over the Maine woods. 

..scooping leaves as jet fuel?  ;-)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: ALERT: Losing the DAFIF

2004-08-13 Thread Peter L

 That's a bit euphemistic. They flew lower than allowed, against clear
orders.
 And the pilot filmed the whole thing to show off to his friends (IIRC).
Despite
 killing 20(?) people the fines were AFAIK ridiculously low. He would have
 sat a few years in prison in most legal systems ...

Yeah, I was a bit more polite than normal. Just put it down to not knowing
you guys yet...

Peter


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: ALERT: Losing the DAFIF

2004-08-13 Thread Jim Wilson
Melchior FRANZ said:

 * Peter L -- Saturday 14 August 2004 05:14:
   Was it the USAF? I couldn't remember anymore, just that it happened..
  
  Actually, marines. Very unfortunate accident in clear weather in 1998 in
  Italy. US marine training flight, the plane returned with some damage.
  
  The route was a well used one, but it appears they flew lower than normal.
 
 That's a bit euphemistic. They flew lower than allowed, against clear orders.
 And the pilot filmed the whole thing to show off to his friends (IIRC). Despite
 killing 20(?) people the fines were AFAIK ridiculously low. He would have
 sat a few years in prison in most legal systems ...
 

There were no fines.

The official line: 
http://www.dod.gov/news/Feb1998/n02101998_9802105.html

The media: 
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june99/marines_2-3.html
http://www.cnn.com/US/9902/26/marines.cable.car.02/

The result: 
http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/04/marines.cablecar.03/

Back to Erik's original comment: note that if the information regarding the
charting of the cable was _key_ to the defense in this case.

Best,

Jim


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: ALERT: Losing the DAFIF

2004-08-13 Thread Jim Wilson
Melchior FRANZ said:

 * Peter L -- Saturday 14 August 2004 07:31:
   That's a bit euphemistic. 
 
  Yeah, I was a bit more polite than normal. Just put it down to not knowing
  you guys yet...
 
 No problem. And I didn't want to make it sound as if you pardoned a
criminal. :-)
 
 I just wanted to make clear that this was *not* some unaware pilot who
cuts the
 cable. He knew the cable was there. He wanted to fly under it and make a nice
 film, which was common practice in this unit at Aviano/Italy. Even their
 commander did it (and lost his command because of that).
 
 The cable was around 85 to 95 m AGL (~300 ft), and the minimum altitude allowed
 in this area was 150 m (~500 ft) at this time. This was afterwards raised
 to 600 m (~2000 ft).
 
 m.
 
 
 Ref.: http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9803/10/italian.crash.report/

The U.S. Marine motto is The few, the proud,  not the most intelligent :-)

I think the few is important.  Unfortunately, it's hard to train folks to be
potential killers,  and expect civility and common sense to always prevail.

We've got a training field nearby and this is a fairly rural area.  I can say
that I haven't seen anything marginal come from there.  The private jets are
another story.  I'm amazed at the crap they get away with over the Maine
woods.  And then of course there are the cruise missle tests...

Best,

Jim


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