Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-29 Thread HB-GRAL
Am 21.09.11 07:59, schrieb Alex Perry:

 12.  ... who is missing from the list?


I just decided to start with russian airspace, because of this one here:
http://premier.gov.ru/eng/events/news/9704/

Cheers, Yves

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-26 Thread Martin Spott
John Denker wrote:

 And here is a possibly-related question:  what colormap are
 the Sectional Aeronautical Charts using, and how do I specify
 it?  They show up in QGIS in beautiful natural color.  In 
 particular, in QGIS, if I change the colormap on one of those 
 charts, there does not appear to be any way to change it back
 to the beautiful original colormap.

The palettes are embedded in the GeoTIFF files, you most certainly want
to convert these images into some suitable true colour format before
doing any manipulations,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-26 Thread Martin Spott
John Denker wrote:

 Here's another fun way of mapping airspace:  You can get sectional
 charts in the form of .tif files from:
  
 http://www.aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/VFR/chartlist_sect
[...]
 This is a low priority for me, because I am content to 
 reproject all rasters to a common SRS using gdalwarp.  That
 does everything I need it to do.

BTW, as a quick script-fun-project I've reprojected these maps into WGS84,
but as you can see from this QGIS screenshot:

  http://foxtrot.mgras.net/bitmap/Dallas-Ft_Worth_87_WGS84.png

  there's still a lot of work to be done for clipping off the
legends, which, obviously, has to be performed _before_ re-projecting,
before you'll be able to create a seamless map of the entire US.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-23 Thread John Denker
Here's another fun way of mapping airspace:  You can get sectional
charts in the form of .tif files from:
  
http://www.aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/VFR/chartlist_sect

You can then read them into QGIS ... and then overlay them with
whatever other information you want, perhaps from apt.dat and
nav.dat and/or elsewhere.

  (Reading the same .tif file into GRASS doesn't work.  GRASS
  tries and fails, with no error or warning messages.  The
  resulting map has no pixels at all, according to d.histogram.
  So this is another reason to use QGIS.)

On 09/21/2011 06:10 PM, J. Holden wrote:

 Admittedly I work with GRASS solely on the text-based side - rarely
 if ever touching the GUI 

Roger that.  I, too, rely almost exclusively on the command-line
interface to GRASS.  I occasionally use the GUI to give me hints
about what CLI commands I need to use.  The stuff I need to do 
involves so many GRASS commands that I could not possibly remember
them all, let alone do them reliably, so I use a script.

 I hope I didn't misinterpret what you're writing, and hopefully that
 was of some help.

You definitely understood the questions (even though I now
realize the questions were not entirely clear) ... and you
have been very helpful.


 3. You CAN do raster reprojection on the fly. However, your results
 won't be anywhere near as clean as a vector reprojection as a
 result of the different format type. Also, there are some rules - I
 believe the projection has to be in the current region of the
 location you're reprojecting to, and also the resolution must be
 sufficient in order to handle the map.

Well, YMMV but I can't get the instance I'm running to do raster 
reprojection.  It tries and fails.  I have an example where there 
are two rasters in the same location, with slightly different 
projections, plus some vector data.  If I switch projections in 
my project workspace, one raster or the other goes to all-white. 
The zoom to layer button zooms to the right place, but the image
is still all-white.  The vector data stays where it belongs, so 
that is working.

This is a low priority for me, because I am content to 
reproject all rasters to a common SRS using gdalwarp.  That
does everything I need it to do.

 1) it's probably easiest to continue to use d.his and
 then display the resulting map using the GRASS plugin - QGIS doesn't
 really have many (if any?) raster tools, while GRASS was created
 primarily to deal with raster features (and added vectors later).

That sounds good, but I haven't figured out how to get a map
/out/ of d.his.  I think of d.his as a display function, not 
a map-calculation function.  I don't know how to find the
resulting map produced by d.his, not in any useful form
anyway.

And here is a possibly-related question:  what colormap are
the Sectional Aeronautical Charts using, and how do I specify
it?  They show up in QGIS in beautiful natural color.  In 
particular, in QGIS, if I change the colormap on one of those 
charts, there does not appear to be any way to change it back
to the beautiful original colormap.  I assume there is some
clever colormap that the QGIS backend knows about but the GUI
does not.

I mention this because I reckon I could solve several
interesting problems by using this colormap, using r.mapcalc
if necessary to format the pixels.  This includes the drape
operation, which produces very nice-looking results by taking
the hue from one layer and the intensity from another.

Or maybe somebody can write a r.calc.drape module.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-23 Thread Gene Buckle
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, John Denker wrote:

 Here's another fun way of mapping airspace:  You can get sectional
 charts in the form of .tif files from:
  
 http://www.aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/VFR/chartlist_sect

John, do you know if they provide a version of that data that can be 
zoomed infinitely without pixelating?  (ie. a vector based version of 
the same map)

tnx!

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread J. Holden
This is somewhat off-topic to FlightGear, so I apologize - but I respond to 
John Denker: Having looked over what you are trying to do, I strongly recommend 
using QGIS with the GRASS plugin.

Very rarely do I use any of GRASS' built-in visualization programs - and very 
rarely do I use any of QGIS' built-in geospatial functions - but QGIS is the 
best program I've found to visualize GRASS data at the moment (with the 
possible, rare, exception of NVIZ).

In fact, I believe the whole GRASS d.mon was rewritten as of GRASS 7 and now 
works differently (and hopefully better). I think most of the GRASS display 
functions were very, very old.

Cheers
John

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:59:11 -0700, Alex wrote in message 
CAEwz7jsynVp9izpjcfFs45Ez3cbTUV1YJnyArUnALaKzEcgG=w...@mail.gmail.com:

 To agree with Alan, but with some additional generalizations.
 
 On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:25 AM, Alan Teeder ajtee...@v-twin.org.uk
 wrote:
  When I ran the research flight simulator for a major aircraft
  manufacturer in the UK (many moons ago when we still had such an
  industry), we had a saying:-
  Ask 10 test pilots for their opinion, and you will get 10 different
  answers
 
 1.  IFR commercial pilot:  airspace is completely irrelevant as they
 fly the clearance from ATC, initially filed by another airline
 individual who is not a pilot.
 2.  IFR general aviation pilot:  airspace is only of interest on the
 ground when designing a clearance request that will be typed into the
 web terminal.
 3.  VFR commercial pilot:  Almost irrelevant as tends to operate in
 areas without airspace restrictions or with full ATC coordination on
 an ad-hoc basis.
 4.  VFR cross country pilot:  Interested in airspace, but usually just
 wanting to know where it is, to fly far around it.
 5.  VFR visiting pilot:  Intensely interested in airspace, wants the
 simulator to help him learn not to accidentally bump into it.
 6.  VFR local pilot:  Probably has it memorized anyway, owns the chart
 mostly to be compliant with the rules.
 7.  Antique / simple homebuilt pilot:  Doesn't have radios or the like
 anyway, simply needs a few circles marked 'mode C veil'.
 8.  Military pilot:  Doesn't use civilian charts.  Could be fun to
 have the MTR details transcribed for simulating those fighters.
 9.  Shuttle pilot:  I could ask if needed, but I suspect they count as
 [2] since they're in class A airspace until the final brick-like
 landing.
 10.  Aerobatic pilot:  The boxes.  And something on the simulator to
 be sarcastic when you accidentally leave the box.
 11.  RC pilot:  No idea.  Curt?
 12.  ... who is missing from the list?

..13. FPV pilot
14. Drone pilot (or operator (to open another coupla cans of ...))


 From: HB-GRAL
  To improve our map resources with further data I started an
  experiment with free available airspace data. Actually this is far
  from being a good map and finished design, it is just a start to
  implement (unofficial!) airspace information:
  http://maptest.fgx.ch/navaid.html
 
 Lovely, keep up the good work.  The comments above are intended to
 clarify and not discourage.
 
 --
 All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure
 contains a definitive record of customers, application performance,
 security threats, fraudulent activity and more. Splunk takes this
 data and makes sense of it. Business sense. IT sense. Common sense.
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-d2dcopy1
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread Curtis Olson
11: RC Pilot.  Stays under 400' AGL and outside a 3 mile radius from any
airport.  Probably flying at a club site and doesn't care about air spaces.
 Has no way to estimate if he's over or under 400' AGL and probably is
flying a plane that can climb 500' per second and hover at 2 clicks of
throttle.  Is annoyed when a VIP flies into the big airport 30 miles away
and his club field is just barely inside the TFR radius and he can't even go
out there and fly a paper airplane for several hours.

14: Drone Pilot.  Still waiting for the official regulations in the USA (I
think.)  Realizing if manned aviation was just invented this week, the FAA
would completely disallow it for safety reasons.  In the USA you can do
whatever you want in military airspace assuming you have proper permission
to be there.  We've flown at Schofield barracks in HI, in a navy operations
area north of Oahu (entirely over water the entire flight including launch
and recovery), at camp ripley (MN).  Hopefully later this fall up in AK,
etc.  That seems to be the path of least resistance ... get permission to
fly in military airspace and the FAA is entirely out of the picture.  Or you
can push through paperwork with the FAA to get a COA (certificate of
authorization) which is permission to operate in a specific area at specific
times with whatever specific other constraints the FAA wants to impose.
 When we were flying under a COA in the north pacific (1000nm north of
Hawaii) we had to put a call out for any local traffic before launch and
monitor some random frequency that FAA told us to monitor ... which was kind
of dumb because how many Cessna's are going to be flying 1000nm away from
the closest land?  Of those, how many are going to be flying under 500'
altitude?  And of those, how many would be chatting on the random frequency
the FAA picked for us?  We are from the government and we are here to help!
:-)

Curt.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Arnt Karlsen a...@c2i.net wrote:

 On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:59:11 -0700, Alex wrote in message
 CAEwz7jsynVp9izpjcfFs45Ez3cbTUV1YJnyArUnALaKzEcgG=w...@mail.gmail.com:

  To agree with Alan, but with some additional generalizations.
 
  On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:25 AM, Alan Teeder ajtee...@v-twin.org.uk
  wrote:
   When I ran the research flight simulator for a major aircraft
   manufacturer in the UK (many moons ago when we still had such an
   industry), we had a saying:-
   Ask 10 test pilots for their opinion, and you will get 10 different
   answers
 
  1.  IFR commercial pilot:  airspace is completely irrelevant as they
  fly the clearance from ATC, initially filed by another airline
  individual who is not a pilot.
  2.  IFR general aviation pilot:  airspace is only of interest on the
  ground when designing a clearance request that will be typed into the
  web terminal.
  3.  VFR commercial pilot:  Almost irrelevant as tends to operate in
  areas without airspace restrictions or with full ATC coordination on
  an ad-hoc basis.
  4.  VFR cross country pilot:  Interested in airspace, but usually just
  wanting to know where it is, to fly far around it.
  5.  VFR visiting pilot:  Intensely interested in airspace, wants the
  simulator to help him learn not to accidentally bump into it.
  6.  VFR local pilot:  Probably has it memorized anyway, owns the chart
  mostly to be compliant with the rules.
  7.  Antique / simple homebuilt pilot:  Doesn't have radios or the like
  anyway, simply needs a few circles marked 'mode C veil'.
  8.  Military pilot:  Doesn't use civilian charts.  Could be fun to
  have the MTR details transcribed for simulating those fighters.
  9.  Shuttle pilot:  I could ask if needed, but I suspect they count as
  [2] since they're in class A airspace until the final brick-like
  landing.
  10.  Aerobatic pilot:  The boxes.  And something on the simulator to
  be sarcastic when you accidentally leave the box.
  11.  RC pilot:  No idea.  Curt?
  12.  ... who is missing from the list?

 ..13. FPV pilot
 14. Drone pilot (or operator (to open another coupla cans of ...))


  From: HB-GRAL
   To improve our map resources with further data I started an
   experiment with free available airspace data. Actually this is far
   from being a good map and finished design, it is just a start to
   implement (unofficial!) airspace information:
   http://maptest.fgx.ch/navaid.html
 
  Lovely, keep up the good work.  The comments above are intended to
  clarify and not discourage.
 
 
 --
  All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure
  contains a definitive record of customers, application performance,
  security threats, fraudulent activity and more. Splunk takes this
  data and makes sense of it. Business sense. IT sense. Common sense.
  http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-d2dcopy1
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread Gene Buckle
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

 11: RC Pilot.  Stays under 400' AGL and outside a 3 mile radius from any
 airport.  Probably flying at a club site and doesn't care about air spaces.
 Has no way to estimate if he's over or under 400' AGL and probably is
 flying a plane that can climb 500' per second and hover at 2 clicks of
 throttle.  Is annoyed when a VIP flies into the big airport 30 miles away
 and his club field is just barely inside the TFR radius and he can't even go
 out there and fly a paper airplane for several hours.

11a: RC Pilot.  Flies out of backyard whenever the hell he wants, 
regularly sees how high he can get using a 2lb electric Slow-Stik and a 
fancy altimeter downlink.  Doesn't worry about how tiny a 40 model is at 
2000ft, has FPV goggles for that.

*laughs*

g.

-- 
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http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
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Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

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by the clean end.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread Curtis Olson
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:

 On Wed, 21 Sep 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

  11: RC Pilot.  Stays under 400' AGL and outside a 3 mile radius from any
  airport.  Probably flying at a club site and doesn't care about air
 spaces.
  Has no way to estimate if he's over or under 400' AGL and probably is
  flying a plane that can climb 500' per second and hover at 2 clicks of
  throttle.  Is annoyed when a VIP flies into the big airport 30 miles away
  and his club field is just barely inside the TFR radius and he can't even
 go
  out there and fly a paper airplane for several hours.
 
 11a: RC Pilot.  Flies out of backyard whenever the hell he wants,
 regularly sees how high he can get using a 2lb electric Slow-Stik and a
 fancy altimeter downlink.  Doesn't worry about how tiny a 40 model is at
 2000ft, has FPV goggles for that.


11b: Smart RC Pilot: Doesn't post publicly about his misadventures, and has
never been above 400' or anywhere close to inside or above the clouds.

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread Gene Buckle
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

 On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:

 On Wed, 21 Sep 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

 11: RC Pilot.  Stays under 400' AGL and outside a 3 mile radius from any
 airport.  Probably flying at a club site and doesn't care about air
 spaces.
 Has no way to estimate if he's over or under 400' AGL and probably is
 flying a plane that can climb 500' per second and hover at 2 clicks of
 throttle.  Is annoyed when a VIP flies into the big airport 30 miles away
 and his club field is just barely inside the TFR radius and he can't even
 go
 out there and fly a paper airplane for several hours.

 11a: RC Pilot.  Flies out of backyard whenever the hell he wants,
 regularly sees how high he can get using a 2lb electric Slow-Stik and a
 fancy altimeter downlink.  Doesn't worry about how tiny a 40 model is at
 2000ft, has FPV goggles for that.


 11b: Smart RC Pilot: Doesn't post publicly about his misadventures, and has
 never been above 400' or anywhere close to inside or above the clouds.

*my* misadventures?  Oh no sir, not mine.  There's this awesome FPV forum 
that discusses such things(there's a video of a guy doing some 
_insane_ things with a flying wing in and around Rio)

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

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A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.

--
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definitive record of customers, application performance, security
threats, fraudulent activity and more. Splunk takes this data and makes
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread John Denker
On 09/20/2011 07:08 PM, J. Holden wrote:
 This is somewhat off-topic to FlightGear, so I apologize - but I
 respond to John Denker: Having looked over what you are trying to do,
 I strongly recommend using QGIS with the GRASS plugin.
 
 Very rarely do I use any of GRASS' built-in visualization programs -
 and very rarely do I use any of QGIS' built-in geospatial functions -
 but QGIS is the best program I've found to visualize GRASS data at
 the moment (with the possible, rare, exception of NVIZ).
 
 In fact, I believe the whole GRASS d.mon was rewritten as of GRASS 7
 and now works differently (and hopefully better). I think most of the
 GRASS display functions were very, very old.

Yes, that helps.  Thanks for the clue.

One nice thing about GRASS is that it is very modular.  In
particular its backend computational features are independent 
of its frontend visualization features.

The QGIS frontend graphics are orders of magnitude faster than
the GRASS frontend graphics.

Also QGIS has a feature called recompute CRS on the fly that
simplifies a lot of things.  It's nice to see a little bit of
sanity in the world.

Here are some questions you might be able to help me with, if
you would be so kind.  Off-list answers would be fine, although 
I suspect I'm not the only person who is interested:

1) GRASS has a drape feature implemented by d.his that sets
 the intensity from one raster and the hue from from another,
 which is a very nice way of combining slope information and
 elevation information into one image.  It's not obvious how
 to achieve the drape effect in QGIS ... with or without 
 involving GRASS.  What's the trick?

2) GRASS has a catlist feature implemented by d.rast that
 makes it easy to display only a certain range of values,
 e.g. everything from 3000 feet on up.  This is particularly
 slick in conjunction with item (1) above.  I can always do
 this with r.mapcalc, but I was wondering if there might be
 a convenient way to do it on-the-fly.

3) I suspect that doing reprojections on the the fly only
 works for vector data.  I tried it with raster data, 
 expecting to see either a resulting image or an error 
 message, but saw neither.  Is there something I'm missing?

4) When defining a colormap, there does not appear to be
 any way of controlling transparency on a level-by-level
 basis.  Am I overlooking something, or is this an actual
 limitation?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread HB-GRAL
Am 21.09.11 21:43, schrieb John Denker:

 3) I suspect that doing reprojections on the the fly only
   works for vector data.  I tried it with raster data,
   expecting to see either a resulting image or an error
   message, but saw neither.  Is there something I'm missing?

It works also for raster on the fly, but you probably have to zoom to 
the current extension again.

Cheers, Yves

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread HB-GRAL
Am 21.09.11 21:43, schrieb John Denker:

 4) When defining a colormap, there does not appear to be
   any way of controlling transparency on a level-by-level
   basis.  Am I overlooking something, or is this an actual
   limitation?

Maybe I miss something but you can control transparency for every level 
in layer properties. Cheers, Yves

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-21 Thread J. Holden
John:

Admittedly I work with GRASS solely on the text-based side - rarely if ever 
touching the GUI - but hopefully I can help:

1) To be honest, it's probably easiest to continue to use d.his and then 
display the resulting map using the GRASS plugin - QGIS doesn't really have 
many (if any?) raster tools, while GRASS was created primarily to deal with 
raster features (and added vectors later).

2) I believe r.mapcalc is the way to do this on the fly - not sure what you are 
asking, because I'm sure d.rast calls this on the fly when you go to display 
the image?

You can always do something like
r.mapcalc {$output_map} = if({$input_map[0,0]} = 3000, {$input_map[0,0]}, 
null())
so it doesn't stop the processing.

3. You CAN do raster reprojection on the fly. However, your results won't be 
anywhere near as clean as a vector reprojection as a result of the different 
format type. Also, there are some rules - I believe the projection has to be in 
the current region of the location you're reprojecting to, and also the 
resolution must be sufficient in order to handle the map.

The r.proj part of the manual has two good procedures for doing so: 
http://grass.osgeo.org/grass64/manuals/html64_user/r.proj.html
(old version but should still be okay)

4) I think it's an actual limitation - I am assuming, for a categorical map, 
you would like say all cats  10 to have a transparency but all cats = 10 to 
not have a transparency? I'm not sure how to do this, if this exists - I'd just 
use r.mapcalc and display two different layers.

I hope I didn't misinterpret what you're writing, and hopefully that was of 
some help.

Cheers
John

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-20 Thread John Denker
On 09/19/2011 04:07 PM, HB-GRAL wrote:

 To improve our map resources with further data I started an experiment 
 with free available airspace data. Actually this is far from being a 
 good map and finished design, it is just a start to implement 
 (unofficial!) airspace information:
 http://maptest.fgx.ch/navaid.html
 
 I need probably some advice from real pilots around here for what is 
 useful to map for FlightGear airspace, and how this should be displayed. 
 I think I am aware of regular ICAO graphics definitions etc. But I dont 
 want to design well known (and also free available) maps, I just want to 
 develop a design as a overview and some really necessary items i.e. 
 for learning the basics or whatelse. There is no RFC for what I am doing 
 here, I am just playing around with data and an new Mapnik Server and 
 ask for discussion and contribution.
 
 (Notice, my new signature since I send this links to the list and 
 elsewhere: Please do not use any of this material for real navigation! 
 NEVER. Do only use this to help developing and improving the design of 
 my maps ;-).

A few remarks:

1) Real pilots are concerned about airspace, but they are also
 concerned about terrain and obstructions.  Also weather and 
 winds aloft.  You don't want to follow the example of Cory Lidle 
 and his instructor.  Their flight path was compressed by airspace 
 and they ended up flying into the side of a high-rise apartment 
 building.  Violating the airspace would have been a better choice.

2) It is good to provide disclaimers, and people should take those
 seriously.  However:
 2a) Pilots are trained to cross-check everything, and never rely 
  on a single source of information.
 2b) People *are* going to use whatever maps they can get their hands
  on -- in conjunction with other information -- to help with real-world
  flight planning and training.

For example, I commonly use FlightGear to familiarize myself with the
IFR approach procedures and other details before flying into an unfamiliar 
airport.  Of course I crosscheck the apt.dat description of the airport 
against satellite photos et cetera.  Discrepancies abound, as previously 
described.

3) Interactive computerized maps offer some treeemendous advantages.  For
 one thing, the ability to turn layers on and off is very powerful.  The
 total amount of detail that is /sometimes/ useful is more than can be
 shown on any one map.

 Here's a rough scenario, aka use case:

  1) Turn on airport names (not just 4-letter identifiers) because I have
   not memorized every identifier in the world.

  2) Sketch a rough route.

  3) Turn off the names, to declutter the map.

  4) Turn on navaids, intersections, and fixes, so as to facilitate defining
   the route in terms that can be used on an ATC flight plan.

  5) Turn off everything but the route and the terrain, to see what sort
   of obstructions there are.

  6) Apply safety margins required by regulations.  Apply additional personal
   margins.

  7) Revise the route to get around the worst of the obstructions.

  8) Cross-check against the VFR sectional, IFR enroute chart, et cetera.

  9) Go back to step 4 and iterate.

 10) Turn on weather and winds aloft.

  *) et cetera.

Note that I have a tool that not only highlights the route centerline, but
also the /corridor/ extending some distance on either side.  For example, a
half-width of 4 nm is relevant to FAR 91.177.
  http://www.av8n.com/fly/grass-intro.htm#fig-colored-fix-pass

These tools are painfully difficult to use.  The only thing that would be
worse would be not having them.  Flight planning is relatively easy if you
stick to IFR airways, but sometimes in mountainous regions (e.g. Alaska
among many others) this can lead to insanely high MEAs (minimum enroute
altitudes).  As soon as you start planning an off-airways flight, trying
to do it just by penciling in lines on a chart is exceedingly laborious 
and error-prone.

So, you have to decide what you want to do.  You could go for a map that
is merely pretty to look at ... or you could go for a map that is actually
useful.

One more thing:  You don't want to go too far with the disclaimers.  Lives
are at stake, and /not/ providing information can be just as much of a
problem as providing not-quite-perfect information.  CFIT i.e. controlled
flight into terrain makes a large contribution to the fatal accident rate.
Sometimes a contributing factor is compression between airspace or weather
above and terrain below ... but sometimes it just comes down to bad planning
and really bad luck.  Providing something that helps with this would be a
Good Thing.

Again:  It doesn't have to be perfect.  Note that the FAA provides (via
contractors) a service that will prepare a computerized flight plan for
you.  There are scenarios where you can file such a flight plan, get 
cleared As Filed, and fly it as cleared ... and fly right into the side 
of a mountain.  Hence the need for cross-checking.

This 

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-20 Thread Alan Teeder
When I ran the research flight simulator for a major aircraft manufacturer 
in the UK (many moons ago when we still had such an industry), we had a 
saying:-
Ask 10 test pilots for their opinion, and you will get 10 different 
answers

The same will apply here. Someone who is interested in commercial airliners 
will have a different view from a light aircraft pilot who wishes to hone 
his IFR techniques, or from another light aircraft pilot who want to know 
how to fly VFR in a congested area, or from a military pilot. etc. etc. etc. 
The gamers probably donĀ“t understand what you are asking. They just need a 
pretty map so that they can find the way back to an airfield.

Keep up the work, it looks like a very good start.

I would suggest that you keep as close as possible to a common format, 
either one that is available in printed form, or as represented in a modern 
glass cockpit. As most users are limited to small PC screens keep it 
uncluttered, or allow information layers to be turned on and off.

Alan

-Original Message- 
From: HB-GRAL
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:07 AM
To: FlightGear developers discussions
Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

Hi all

To improve our map resources with further data I started an experiment
with free available airspace data. Actually this is far from being a
good map and finished design, it is just a start to implement
(unofficial!) airspace information:
http://maptest.fgx.ch/navaid.html

I need probably some advice from real pilots around here for what is
useful to map for FlightGear airspace, and how this should be displayed.
I think I am aware of regular ICAO graphics definitions etc. But I dont
want to design well known (and also free available) maps, I just want to
develop a design as a overview and some really necessary items i.e.
for learning the basics or whatelse. There is no RFC for what I am doing
here, I am just playing around with data and an new Mapnik Server and
ask for discussion and contribution.

(Notice, my new signature since I send this links to the list and
elsewhere: Please do not use any of this material for real navigation!
NEVER. Do only use this to help developing and improving the design of
my maps ;-).

Cheers, Yves


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Mapping Airspace

2011-09-20 Thread Alex Perry
To agree with Alan, but with some additional generalizations.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:25 AM, Alan Teeder ajtee...@v-twin.org.uk wrote:
 When I ran the research flight simulator for a major aircraft manufacturer
 in the UK (many moons ago when we still had such an industry), we had a
 saying:-
 Ask 10 test pilots for their opinion, and you will get 10 different
 answers

1.  IFR commercial pilot:  airspace is completely irrelevant as they
fly the clearance from ATC, initially filed by another airline
individual who is not a pilot.
2.  IFR general aviation pilot:  airspace is only of interest on the
ground when designing a clearance request that will be typed into the
web terminal.
3.  VFR commercial pilot:  Almost irrelevant as tends to operate in
areas without airspace restrictions or with full ATC coordination on
an ad-hoc basis.
4.  VFR cross country pilot:  Interested in airspace, but usually just
wanting to know where it is, to fly far around it.
5.  VFR visiting pilot:  Intensely interested in airspace, wants the
simulator to help him learn not to accidentally bump into it.
6.  VFR local pilot:  Probably has it memorized anyway, owns the chart
mostly to be compliant with the rules.
7.  Antique / simple homebuilt pilot:  Doesn't have radios or the like
anyway, simply needs a few circles marked 'mode C veil'.
8.  Military pilot:  Doesn't use civilian charts.  Could be fun to
have the MTR details transcribed for simulating those fighters.
9.  Shuttle pilot:  I could ask if needed, but I suspect they count as
[2] since they're in class A airspace until the final brick-like
landing.
10.  Aerobatic pilot:  The boxes.  And something on the simulator to
be sarcastic when you accidentally leave the box.
11.  RC pilot:  No idea.  Curt?
12.  ... who is missing from the list?

From: HB-GRAL
 To improve our map resources with further data I started an experiment
 with free available airspace data. Actually this is far from being a
 good map and finished design, it is just a start to implement
 (unofficial!) airspace information:
 http://maptest.fgx.ch/navaid.html

Lovely, keep up the good work.  The comments above are intended to
clarify and not discourage.

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