Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-31 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 Currently there is no shapefile version of GSHHS 1.5, which was
 available for 1.3, so we need to get some tool to import the custom
 binary format of GSHHS into the database, including the handling of
 shorelines crossing the dateline, etc (e.g. Eurasia continent definition).

 Yes, this is on my TODO-list, and no, it's not on top.
 
 ...volunteers welcome ;-)

Not any more. I have implemented this tool on the weekend and the import
of GSHHS 1.6 into the database is running. The result will be closed
polygon layers.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-26 Thread AnMaster
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I found such a case near Göteborg in Sweden:
57*28 41.8N  11*51 56.1E is what the HUD show when I'm above it.

Regards,
Arvid Norlander

Ralf Gerlich wrote:
| Hi!
|
| Jocelyn Couetdic wrote:
| I hope you'll find without too much trouble the bug behind all this.
|
| Thank you for your reports. As reported, I have already found the
| problem and now I am searching for a fix. However, these reports will
| also help me find out whether my fix - once implemented - is successful,
| so keep reporting, I am collecting them.
|
| Cheers,
| Ralf
|
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-26 Thread AnMaster
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And some more very close:
57*48 08.2N  11*39 55.6E
58*15 49.1N  11*20 47.2E
58*40 10.7N  11*06 54.9E

And I can see another one ahead, but I don't have time to list more than these.

Another kind of bug maybe is around 59*15 14.6N 10*33 07.1E, the scenery look 
very
rectangular here but the areas seem to have a few islands in them. Still it 
looks quite
weird and not correct as far as I can see

In general, the whole Swedish scenery (or at least the parts I looked at, which 
is
following a track from ESSA - ESOE - ESGG and then following the coast north 
of ESGG a
bit) look crap in 1.0 scenery.

Regards,
Arvid Norlander

AnMaster wrote:
| I found such a case near Göteborg in Sweden:
| 57*28 41.8N  11*51 56.1E is what the HUD show when I'm above it.
|
| Regards,
| Arvid Norlander
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-25 Thread Jocelyn Couetdic
Hello everyone :)

2008/3/19, Ralf Gerlich [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 However, the faulty tiles - tiles which should show only ground where
 there should be ocean as well - are bugs, not inaccuracies.


I spotted another type of faulty tile : ocean where there should be ground,
@ N47°56 W04°07
Check out Quimper's airport (LFRQ) : it's hovering over the sea.

I am interested in reports about straight ground tiles in the ocean or
 in lakes, as Gerard reported in his original mail:


Some locations in France (I give lat,long somewhere in the middle of the
faulty tile, and an airport nearby) :
Near Bordeaux
45.50 , -1.11 (LFCY, LFDK, LFIV)
45.08 , -0.67 (LFDU, LFBD, LFDY)
45.87 , -1.25 (LFCD)

Near Brest
47.93 , -4.11 (LFRQ)
48.18 , -4.62 (LFRL)

I hope you'll find without too much trouble the bug behind all this.

Cheers
-- 
Jocelyn Couetdic
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-25 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hi!

Jocelyn Couetdic wrote:
 I hope you'll find without too much trouble the bug behind all this.

Thank you for your reports. As reported, I have already found the
problem and now I am searching for a fix. However, these reports will
also help me find out whether my fix - once implemented - is successful,
so keep reporting, I am collecting them.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:07:44 +0100, Ralf wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 AnMaster wrote:
  Good question, I guess combining them and manually fixing the
  problems would be too much work. I got no really good solution. But
  the current coastlines are very bad in many cases.
  
  What about only using GHSSH for those coastlines around continents?
  With that I mean coast line  around, say, North and south America,
  Europe/Africa/Asia (that, apart from the Suez channel, are
  connected), Australia and any islands, and simply discard any
  coastlines inside these blocks and use vmap0 there. That is:
  don't trust how vmap0/GHSSH classify the data. Would that be
  feasible?
 
 Feasible, as GSHHS explicitly makes the outer coastlines available and
 differentiates them from inner shorelines, but it wouldn't solve the
 problems with inconsistent waterways at the coastlines of continents.
 
 Even though that is a lot of work, manually adapting our VMAP0-based
 data to the GSHHS-data is the only solution I currently see.

..an idea out of the blue; if we model sea water, and the 
sea floor, we could _generate_ the coastline at runtime?  
It does move with high 'n low tide.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... 
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hi!

Arnt Karlsen wrote:
 ..an idea out of the blue; if we model sea water, and the 
 sea floor, we could _generate_ the coastline at runtime?  
 It does move with high 'n low tide.

The current scenery concept can only support fixed coastlines and we'd
have the same problems with the rivers when the sea-level moves.

The problem is _not_ the coastline itself, it is the consistency of the
quite accurate GSHHS coastline with the quite inaccurate VMAP0
waterways. In addition, as I understood, GSHHS is missing some important
waterbodies in full or in part.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Tim Moore
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Ralf Gerlich wrote:
| Hi!
|
| Arnt Karlsen wrote:
| ..an idea out of the blue; if we model sea water, and the
| sea floor, we could _generate_ the coastline at runtime?
| It does move with high 'n low tide.
|
| The current scenery concept can only support fixed coastlines and we'd
| have the same problems with the rivers when the sea-level moves.
|
| The problem is _not_ the coastline itself, it is the consistency of the
| quite accurate GSHHS coastline with the quite inaccurate VMAP0
| waterways. In addition, as I understood, GSHHS is missing some important
| waterbodies in full or in part.

Is it practical to use the Landsat classification stuff you guys have demoed on
your web pages to generate our own coastline data?

Tim
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Jon Stockill
Tim Moore wrote:

 Is it practical to use the Landsat classification stuff you guys have demoed 
 on
 your web pages to generate our own coastline data?

It has already been done. The result is PGS (sorry for the horrid url):

http://www.nga.mil/portal/site/nga01/index.jsp?epi-content=GENERICitemID=9328fbd8dcc4a010VgnVCMServer3c02010aRCRDbeanID=1629630080viewID=Article

It still has some breaks in it where the coastline was obscured by cloud 
  in the source data, but it does seem to be far more accurate than 
other sources. It has been imported into OpenStreetMap and tweaked to 
fill in the gaps/correct any errors (there are plenty of people editing, 
so no manpower worries) - it's probably not usable *yet* but provides 
the best freely available source, and should probably be considered for 
a scenery builds at some point in the future.

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hi!

Tim Moore wrote:
 Is it practical to use the Landsat classification stuff you guys have demoed 
 on
 your web pages to generate our own coastline data?

Yes, we can extract the coastline data, but it might still require some
further editing to eliminate misclassifications. The editing effort
might still be less than the effort required for correcting the missing
data in GSHHS, given that we have equalized Landsat data for the whole
world. We can try using the typically available Landsat mosaics, but
these only have RGB data, while the waterbodies are most reliably
classified using RGB and infrared.

Still, it's not possible to extract waterways automatically in a
reliable way from Landsat data, so we will still have to adapt VMAP0
data ourselves. Maybe the OSM data is of help there.

Note that Martin has imported OSM data into the database, making it more
easily available for TerraGear, as the OSM format itself is a custom
format not currently supported by OGR. The guys at OSM also seem to be
in the process of changing their format, but there's also a licensing issue.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread S. Andreason
Hi Ralf,

Are you still looking for 1x1 tiles with ocean showing as land?

Stewart

Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 It would be great if you could send me an exact position which is
 _inside_ the faulty tile. But I at least need general instructions on
 how to find the place. Maybe there's a pattern in these bugs which might
 help me trace it down, but maybe the Nice area is a singularity.
   



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Ralf Gerlich
S. Andreason wrote:
 Are you still looking for 1x1 tiles with ocean showing as land?

Well, I think I have the reason for the problem, but still I'm
interested in bug reports.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Stewart Andreason
Well, I have some! ;)

Put simply, there are land blockages across several bays blocking the 
harbors, and also blocking ferries leaving Seattle from reaching several 
islands which are no longer islands.
Plus a few simple squares jutting out off the western coastline.

48.7490 -122.7490 thru 48.6260 -122.5010 Bellingham Bay, Rosario Strait
48.3870 -123.2520 Victoria
47.7167 -122.5088 thru 47.628 -122.5846 Bainbridge Island, Suquamish, 
Port Madison
47.551 -122.502  thru 47.621 -122.689 Bremerton
47.499 -122.38 thru 47.379 -122.35 Puget Sound, Vashon Island
47.319 -122.506 thru 47.252 -122.565 Puget Sound, Tacoma
47.373 -122.643 thru 47.251 -122.706 Carr Inlet
46.9996 -124.2490
46.2490 -123.9990 Astoria, Oregon has grown into a mega-city blocking 
the Columbia River!
45.7501 -123.9980 thru 45.8749 -123.9980
45.6235 -123.9980
44.8760 -124.2480 thru 44.9980 -124.2480
44.0010 -124.2480 thru 44.1180 -124.2480

One other strange looking floating airport,
48.4894 -122.8320 Center Island is missing from under airport=78WA
since it was missing before, I guess the island doesn't exist. :)

I didn't fly around each island, but I think I found enough for you to 
investigate.

Stewart

--
Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 S. Andreason wrote:
   
 Are you still looking for 1x1 tiles with ocean showing as land?
 

 Well, I think I have the reason for the problem, but still I'm
 interested in bug reports.

 Cheers,
 Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Stewart Andreason wrote:
 Well, I have some! ;)

[SNIP - Loads of sightings]

OK, I originally intended to do partial rebuilds for the buggy tiles,
but if there's so many of them (wonder why I didn't see any of them when
checking the scenery myself) that warrants a full rebuild.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread S. Andreason
Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 [SNIP - Loads of sightings]

 OK, I originally intended to do partial rebuilds for the buggy tiles,
 but if there's so many of them (wonder why I didn't see any of them when
 checking the scenery myself) that warrants a full rebuild.

 Thanks!

   

Hi Ralf,

You're welcome.
Probably has something to do with the quantity of islands in my back 
yard, but you're probably right, if there are this many here, there are 
probably too many around the world.

Will version 1.1 also fix the inland bugs?

Did you find a simple cause (and fix) for the ones I reported Mar.10?

Here's another bad one to check on:
--lat=46.6254  --lon=-121.1458

Stewart


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-22 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:27:29 +0100, Ralf wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Hi!
 
 Arnt Karlsen wrote:
  ..an idea out of the blue; if we model sea water, and the 
  sea floor, we could _generate_ the coastline at runtime?  
  It does move with high 'n low tide.
 
 The current scenery concept can only support fixed coastlines and we'd
 have the same problems with the rivers when the sea-level moves.
 
 The problem is _not_ the coastline itself, it is the consistency of
 the quite accurate GSHHS coastline with the quite inaccurate VMAP0
 waterways. In addition, as I understood, GSHHS is missing some
 important waterbodies in full or in part.

..which I understand is a _big_ ass job.  Is precisely why I wonder
whether sea water and seafloor modelling could be a smaller job, even
if it means a new concept.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hi all!

gerard robin wrote:
[SNIP]
 You could notice that  apt VHHH is now , not an island but on full ground area

Thanks for the reports.

For your information: From the VHHH-tile I was actually able to identify
the actual trigger for the buggy tiles.

The trigger does lie in the modifications. Note that I'm talking about
the trigger, not about the origin, as the part of the algorithm I
modified actually is robust and correct - in contrast to the old version
of that algorithm.

I was able to verify that the data the modified part of the algorithm
delivers is correct even in the case of the buggy tiles, but the rest of
the TerraGear build chain cannot handle these correct results.

The seemingly obvious fix - reverting to the old algorithm - isn't a
fix. The reason for the modification in the first place were tiles
consistently failing to build, without a workaround or other fix. Here
the old algorithm was not robust enough for the data it got. Reverting
to the old algorithm would therefore make these failed tiles reappear.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread AnMaster
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It does indeed look like 0.9.8 had best coast line. Why is it so much worse in 
more recent
scenery? Wouldn't it be possible to get the same good coastline as in 0.9.8?

Regards,

Arvid Norlander

gerard robin wrote:
| On jeu 20 mars 2008, gerard robin wrote:
| On jeu 20 mars 2008, Alex Romosan wrote:
| Ralf Gerlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| Scenery V1.0.0 has been built using VMAP0 landmass and shoreline data.
| scenery v0.9.8 was also built with the vmap0 landmass and shoreline
| data.
|
| looking at:
| http://mapserver.flightgear.org/openlayers_sfobay.html?zoom=13lat=37.862
| 84 lon=-122.28796layers=B0TFFTFTT (this is the bay area). i am not
| really sure how to interpret the
| colours but if you look at the berkeley coastline in v1.0.0 you'll see
| that the berkeley marina is missing, big chunks of alameda are also
| missing, and so on. on the above map it looks like the actual coast is
| outlined in a red line, then there is some white (same as the water)
| and then there are the red and green chunks (which is the scenery in
| v1.0.0). the berkeley marina is present in 0.9.8 (but it disappeared
| in subsequent scenery releases). something is wrong (and it's been
| wrong for a long time). it will be interesting to compare the current
| algorithm with the one used to generate the coastline in 0.9.8 to try
| to understand why all these things have disappeared.
|
| --alex--
| Hello,
|
| Regarding Hong-KongLat 22.296  deg and Lon 113.898 here are snapshots:
|
| That one from mapserver.flightgear.org
|
| http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/mapserver.flightgear.org_Hong-Kong.jpg
|
| That one with 0.9.8 scenery
| http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-0.9.8_Hong-Kong.jpg
|
| And That one with 1.00 scenery
| http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-1.00_Hong-Kong.jpg
|
| You could notice that  apt VHHH is now , not an island but on full ground
| area
|
| Cheers
|
| And with 0.9.10 which is not so good than 0.9.8 about Hong Kong bay (we don't
| see it here), but in any case better than 1.00
|
| http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-0.9.9_Hong-Kong.jpg
|
|
|
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Curtis Olson
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:00 AM, AnMaster wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512

 It does indeed look like 0.9.8 had best coast line. Why is it so much
 worse in more recent
 scenery? Wouldn't it be possible to get the same good coastline as in
 0.9.8?


As with anything, it's not quite that simple.  The GHSSH coastline database
(used in 0.9.8) is indeed more accurate for ocean coastlines.  However, for
any inland fresh water, it is much worse/less detailed than vmap0.  So in
0.9.8 we used GHSSH for coastlines and VMAP0 for lakes  rivers.

However, we found that there were major discrepancies between the two
databases. For instance, lake washington near seattle is classified as lake
by GHSSH and ocean by vmap0, so it simply did not appear in 0.9.8.
Similarly there were things that were classified as ocean by GHSSH and lake
by vmap0 so they were both drawn on top of each other.

The decision was made to go with vmap0 entirely.  We gave up accuracy around
the coast lines, but we gained a much more consistent picture of the world
... with no major missing bits and no overlapping sections.

Originally we only used GHSSH defined waterways, but this let to major
problems, like the great lakes only being half defined (i.e. the canadian
side of the lakes was not mapped so there was only land there.)  And
strangely, some Canadian's complained about that! :-) So we went to the
mixed GHSSH-Ocean/VMAP0-fresh-water scheme, but people complained about the
missing water that fell in the gaps between both dataset classifications.
So then we went to vmap0, but now people are complaining about less detailed
coast lines!

What combination should we try next? :-)

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Ralf Gerlich
One thing to add...

Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 Currently there is no shapefile version of GSHHS 1.5, which was
 available for 1.3, so we need to get some tool to import the custom
 binary format of GSHHS into the database, including the handling of
 shorelines crossing the dateline, etc (e.g. Eurasia continent definition).
 
 Yes, this is on my TODO-list, and no, it's not on top.

...volunteers welcome ;-)

The goal is to have something like a generic gshhs2ogr-converter that
can convert gshhs to any format supported by the OGR library and outputs
the data properly clipped to -180=lon=180, -90=lat=90. A tool
independent of TerraGear but possibly using gpc would be favoured.

One of the OGR-supported formats is PostgreSQL, which is the database
software we are using on mapserver.flightgear.org.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread AnMaster
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512



Curtis Olson wrote:
| On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:00 AM, AnMaster wrote:
|
| -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
| Hash: SHA512
|
| It does indeed look like 0.9.8 had best coast line. Why is it so much
| worse in more recent
| scenery? Wouldn't it be possible to get the same good coastline as in
| 0.9.8?
|
|
| As with anything, it's not quite that simple.  The GHSSH coastline database
| (used in 0.9.8) is indeed more accurate for ocean coastlines.  However, for
| any inland fresh water, it is much worse/less detailed than vmap0.  So in
| 0.9.8 we used GHSSH for coastlines and VMAP0 for lakes  rivers.
|
| However, we found that there were major discrepancies between the two
| databases. For instance, lake washington near seattle is classified as lake
| by GHSSH and ocean by vmap0, so it simply did not appear in 0.9.8.
| Similarly there were things that were classified as ocean by GHSSH and lake
| by vmap0 so they were both drawn on top of each other.
|
| The decision was made to go with vmap0 entirely.  We gave up accuracy around
| the coast lines, but we gained a much more consistent picture of the world
| ... with no major missing bits and no overlapping sections.
|
| Originally we only used GHSSH defined waterways, but this let to major
| problems, like the great lakes only being half defined (i.e. the canadian
| side of the lakes was not mapped so there was only land there.)  And
| strangely, some Canadian's complained about that! :-) So we went to the
| mixed GHSSH-Ocean/VMAP0-fresh-water scheme, but people complained about the
| missing water that fell in the gaps between both dataset classifications.
| So then we went to vmap0, but now people are complaining about less detailed
| coast lines!
|
| What combination should we try next? :-)
Good question, I guess combining them and manually fixing the problems would be 
too much
work. I got no really good solution. But the current coastlines are very bad in 
many cases.

What about only using GHSSH for those coastlines around continents? With that I 
mean coast
line  around, say, North and south America, Europe/Africa/Asia (that, apart 
from the Suez
channel, are connected), Australia and any islands, and simply discard any 
coastlines
inside these blocks and use vmap0 there. That is: don't trust how vmap0/GHSSH 
classify
the data. Would that be feasible?


Regards,

Arvid Norlander
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iD8DBQFH4+bmWmK6ng/aMNkRCrPAAJ9cnNn819/rhieMAOLM/aRP/VXc4QCgkHPA
dW6e+qXIMwMmKnKKZoShDJE=
=wyoA
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Ralf Gerlich
AnMaster wrote:
 Good question, I guess combining them and manually fixing the problems would 
 be too much
 work. I got no really good solution. But the current coastlines are very bad 
 in many cases.
 
 What about only using GHSSH for those coastlines around continents? With that 
 I mean coast
 line  around, say, North and south America, Europe/Africa/Asia (that, apart 
 from the Suez
 channel, are connected), Australia and any islands, and simply discard any 
 coastlines
 inside these blocks and use vmap0 there. That is: don't trust how 
 vmap0/GHSSH classify
 the data. Would that be feasible?

Feasible, as GSHHS explicitly makes the outer coastlines available and
differentiates them from inner shorelines, but it wouldn't solve the
problems with inconsistent waterways at the coastlines of continents.

Even though that is a lot of work, manually adapting our VMAP0-based
data to the GSHHS-data is the only solution I currently see.

Cheers,
Ralf


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Curtis Olson
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Ralf Gerlich wrote:

 AnMaster wrote:
  Good question, I guess combining them and manually fixing the problems
 would be too much
  work. I got no really good solution. But the current coastlines are very
 bad in many cases.
 
  What about only using GHSSH for those coastlines around continents? With
 that I mean coast
  line  around, say, North and south America, Europe/Africa/Asia (that,
 apart from the Suez
  channel, are connected), Australia and any islands, and simply discard
 any coastlines
  inside these blocks and use vmap0 there. That is: don't trust how
 vmap0/GHSSH classify
  the data. Would that be feasible?

 Feasible, as GSHHS explicitly makes the outer coastlines available and
 differentiates them from inner shorelines, but it wouldn't solve the
 problems with inconsistent waterways at the coastlines of continents.

 Even though that is a lot of work, manually adapting our VMAP0-based
 data to the GSHHS-data is the only solution I currently see.


Right, this is basically what we did for 0.9.8 and ended up with a bazillion
inconsistancies ...

Areas marked as lake/river in GSHHS but ocean in vmap0 will be entirely
skipped.
Areas marked as ocean in GSHHS and lake/river in vmap0 will be doubled up
and overlapped.
VMAP0 rivers may run short of the GSHHS coastline.
etc.

There's no combination of these two datasets you can do perfectly with an
automated system.  You would need a tremendous amount of effort to visually
inspect the entire data set and resolve any problems manually.

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread LeeE
On Friday 21 March 2008 17:13, Curtis Olson wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Ralf Gerlich wrote:
  AnMaster wrote:
   Good question, I guess combining them and manually fixing the
   problems
 
  would be too much
 
   work. I got no really good solution. But the current
   coastlines are very
 
  bad in many cases.
 
   What about only using GHSSH for those coastlines around
   continents? With
 
  that I mean coast
 
   line  around, say, North and south America,
   Europe/Africa/Asia (that,
 
  apart from the Suez
 
   channel, are connected), Australia and any islands, and
   simply discard
 
  any coastlines
 
   inside these blocks and use vmap0 there. That is: don't
   trust how
 
  vmap0/GHSSH classify
 
   the data. Would that be feasible?
 
  Feasible, as GSHHS explicitly makes the outer coastlines
  available and differentiates them from inner shorelines, but it
  wouldn't solve the problems with inconsistent waterways at the
  coastlines of continents.
 
  Even though that is a lot of work, manually adapting our
  VMAP0-based data to the GSHHS-data is the only solution I
  currently see.

 Right, this is basically what we did for 0.9.8 and ended up with
 a bazillion inconsistancies ...

 Areas marked as lake/river in GSHHS but ocean in vmap0 will be
 entirely skipped.
 Areas marked as ocean in GSHHS and lake/river in vmap0 will be
 doubled up and overlapped.
 VMAP0 rivers may run short of the GSHHS coastline.
 etc.

 There's no combination of these two datasets you can do perfectly
 with an automated system.  You would need a tremendous amount of
 effort to visually inspect the entire data set and resolve any
 problems manually.

 Regards,

 Curt.

So it looks like we either live with the problem until someone else 
creates a new database with all the problems fixed, or bite the 
bullet and fix it manually ourselves.

Would it be possible to cobble together a small utility that would 
allow small parcels of the scenery database e.g. 1x1 deg tiles, to 
be checked and corrected manually without setting up the full 
scenery build system?  That way, many people could work on it 
whenever they feel like it.  I've had to do this sort of manual 
data correlation/verification a couple of times over the years, on 
different projects I've worked on, and while it sounds like an 
onerous and tedious task it's not too bad if you can just do bits 
of it, now and then, as a break from your primary tasks.

Obviously, it would be a slow and long-term undertaking but at least 
the problem would be fixed eventually, whereas the alternative 
seems to be that it never gets fixed and we just have to live with 
it.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Norman Vine
LeeE writes:
 
 Would it be possible to cobble together a small utility that would 
 allow small parcels of the scenery database e.g. 1x1 deg tiles, to 
 be checked and corrected manually without setting up the full 
 scenery build system?  That way, many people could work on it 
 whenever they feel like it.  I've had to do this sort of manual 
 data correlation/verification a couple of times over the years, on 
 different projects I've worked on, and while it sounds like an 
 onerous and tedious task it's not too bad if you can just do bits 
 of it, now and then, as a break from your primary tasks.
 
 Obviously, it would be a slow and long-term undertaking but at least 
 the problem would be fixed eventually, whereas the alternative 
 seems to be that it never gets fixed and we just have to live with 
 it.

A little birdie told me that the OSM project is about doing just this :-)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Main_Page

Note that the same services that host mapserver.flightgear.org and 
were used to build the latest fgfs scenery, host the development 
database of OSM

Cheers

Norman


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-21 Thread Ralf Gerlich
LeeE wrote:
 So it looks like we either live with the problem until someone else 
 creates a new database with all the problems fixed, or bite the 
 bullet and fix it manually ourselves.

Yep, that's the spirit ;-)

 Would it be possible to cobble together a small utility that would 
 allow small parcels of the scenery database e.g. 1x1 deg tiles, to 
 be checked and corrected manually without setting up the full 
 scenery build system?  That way, many people could work on it 
 whenever they feel like it.  I've had to do this sort of manual 
 data correlation/verification a couple of times over the years, on 
 different projects I've worked on, and while it sounds like an 
 onerous and tedious task it's not too bad if you can just do bits 
 of it, now and then, as a break from your primary tasks.

You could use qgis or any other GIS for that. No need to work on scenery
files and no need for firing up the scenery generation system at all.

It would still be possible to allocate the tasks in 1x1 deg tile portions.

Still someone would have to implement that logic in a convenient way for
editors to use.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-20 Thread gerard robin
On jeu 20 mars 2008, Alex Romosan wrote:
 Ralf Gerlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Scenery V1.0.0 has been built using VMAP0 landmass and shoreline data.

 scenery v0.9.8 was also built with the vmap0 landmass and shoreline
 data.

 looking at:
 http://mapserver.flightgear.org/openlayers_sfobay.html?zoom=13lat=37.86284
lon=-122.28796layers=B0TFFTFTT (this is the bay area). i am not really
 sure how to interpret the
 colours but if you look at the berkeley coastline in v1.0.0 you'll see
 that the berkeley marina is missing, big chunks of alameda are also
 missing, and so on. on the above map it looks like the actual coast is
 outlined in a red line, then there is some white (same as the water)
 and then there are the red and green chunks (which is the scenery in
 v1.0.0). the berkeley marina is present in 0.9.8 (but it disappeared
 in subsequent scenery releases). something is wrong (and it's been
 wrong for a long time). it will be interesting to compare the current
 algorithm with the one used to generate the coastline in 0.9.8 to try
 to understand why all these things have disappeared.

 --alex--

Hello,

Regarding Hong-KongLat 22.296  deg and Lon 113.898 here are snapshots:

That one from mapserver.flightgear.org

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/mapserver.flightgear.org_Hong-Kong.jpg

That one with 0.9.8 scenery 
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-0.9.8_Hong-Kong.jpg

And That one with 1.00 scenery
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-1.00_Hong-Kong.jpg

You could notice that  apt VHHH is now , not an island but on full ground area

Cheers

-- 
Gérard
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-20 Thread gerard robin
On jeu 20 mars 2008, gerard robin wrote:
 On jeu 20 mars 2008, Alex Romosan wrote:
  Ralf Gerlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   Scenery V1.0.0 has been built using VMAP0 landmass and shoreline data.
 
  scenery v0.9.8 was also built with the vmap0 landmass and shoreline
  data.
 
  looking at:
  http://mapserver.flightgear.org/openlayers_sfobay.html?zoom=13lat=37.862
 84 lon=-122.28796layers=B0TFFTFTT (this is the bay area). i am not
  really sure how to interpret the
  colours but if you look at the berkeley coastline in v1.0.0 you'll see
  that the berkeley marina is missing, big chunks of alameda are also
  missing, and so on. on the above map it looks like the actual coast is
  outlined in a red line, then there is some white (same as the water)
  and then there are the red and green chunks (which is the scenery in
  v1.0.0). the berkeley marina is present in 0.9.8 (but it disappeared
  in subsequent scenery releases). something is wrong (and it's been
  wrong for a long time). it will be interesting to compare the current
  algorithm with the one used to generate the coastline in 0.9.8 to try
  to understand why all these things have disappeared.
 
  --alex--

 Hello,

 Regarding Hong-KongLat 22.296  deg and Lon 113.898 here are snapshots:

 That one from mapserver.flightgear.org

 http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/mapserver.flightgear.org_Hong-Kong.jpg

 That one with 0.9.8 scenery
 http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-0.9.8_Hong-Kong.jpg

 And That one with 1.00 scenery
 http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-1.00_Hong-Kong.jpg

 You could notice that  apt VHHH is now , not an island but on full ground
 area

 Cheers

And with 0.9.10 which is not so good than 0.9.8 about Hong Kong bay (we don't 
see it here), but in any case better than 1.00

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-0.9.9_Hong-Kong.jpg

 

-- 
Gérard
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-19 Thread gerard robin
On mar 18 mars 2008, Anders Gidenstam wrote:
 On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, gerard robin wrote:
  Hello, Ralf
 
  Could you check Hong Kong  too.
  In Scenery 1.0 VHHH is now sitting on a huge  ground area, which is not
  the case in real.

 Hi,

 What do you think about making a page on the wiki where scenery problems
 could be listed? Then, maybe, the reports would be in one place instead of
 scattered across the mailing list archive.

 As more people start to use the 1.0.0 scenery build more problems will be
 found. I can add one: there is a long line of one sided ground polygons
 sticking up through the water across the fjord from BGBW.

 Cheers,

 Anders

YES, which could be.
 however, regarding these Scenery ERRORS it is probably a generic bug  , it is 
not a specific bug (Ralf could answer better than i can), so the list of the 
area where the coastline is wrong will be very large.

I can only say that, the right coastline is given by the tiles extracted from  
Scenery FG0.9.8.


 Cheers


-- 
Gérard
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-19 Thread Jon Stockill
gerard robin wrote:

 I can only say that, the right coastline is given by the tiles extracted from 
  
 Scenery FG0.9.8.

I suspect this is a GSHHS versus VMAP0 issue - I'm not sure which 
coastline was used for the 1.0.0 scenery though.

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-19 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hello all!

gerard robin wrote:
 YES, which could be.
  however, regarding these Scenery ERRORS it is probably a generic bug  , it 
 is 
 not a specific bug (Ralf could answer better than i can), so the list of the 
 area where the coastline is wrong will be very large.
 
 I can only say that, the right coastline is given by the tiles extracted from 
  
 Scenery FG0.9.8.

Scenery V1.0.0 has been built using VMAP0 landmass and shoreline data.

But: Our data never was accurate and probably never will be. Even the
more accurate GSHHS data places LFMN in the ocean - at least in parts.

The same goes for treasure island.

If you want to, you can have a look at the data in the database at
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/ The data used for this build is in the
v0_* layers.

BTW: We are working on importing current GSHHS data (version 1.5 instead
of 1.3 as currently in the DB), but it's not available as Shapefiles
anymore. Slowly but surely wins the race...

So the inaccuracies in the shoreline are _not_ caused by our algorithmic
changes.

However, the faulty tiles - tiles which should show only ground where
there should be ocean as well - are bugs, not inaccuracies.

They are probably specific bugs, as TerraGear does show them from time
to time, caused often by subtleties in the input data, relating to
floating point accuracy or similar. For example, genapts has a nudge
option by which you can nudge the airport layouts by a few centimeters.
Often this is enough to make the difference between a failed tile and a
successful tile, although it doesn't make much difference in the visual
results. This should show you how sensitive TerraGear can be at times.

I am tracking these faults down. I have checked the results of the
modified code on the tile Gerard reported and it seems that the faults
do not originate there.

Note that most of my modifications were necessary to get TerraGear to
even build some tiles. I replaced some complex algorithms by simpler
ones, which should essentially be more robust than their predecessors.

I am as disappointed as you are about these faulty tiles, specifically
as Martin and I have spent a lot of effort to avoid faulty tiles
slipping into the scenery. Yet I hope that we can refrain from yelling
and keep the discussion constructive.

I am interested in reports about straight ground tiles in the ocean or
in lakes, as Gerard reported in his original mail:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-1.0.jpg

It would be great if you could send me an exact position which is
_inside_ the faulty tile. But I at least need general instructions on
how to find the place. Maybe there's a pattern in these bugs which might
help me trace it down, but maybe the Nice area is a singularity.

These are actual bugs and therefore are my priority. Once I have tracked
them down and fixed TerraGear, I will try to provide replacement tiles
for them.

The inaccuracies are unfortunate, but I can't do much about them before
the next scenery rebuild (see my remark about GSHHS v1.5 above).

Cheers,
Ralf
-- 
Ralf Gerlich
Diplom-Informatiker

Software Engineer and Technical Consultant

Dr. Rainer Gerlich System and Software Engineering
Auf dem Ruhbühl 181  |   Tel:+49 7545 91 12 58
D-88090 Immenstaad   |   Fax:+49 7545 91 12 40
Germany  |   Mobile: +49 178 76 06 129

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-19 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hello Gerard!

gerard robin wrote:
 But you understood i was only talking about the coastline near that place.
 The nice curved shape of the bay which should be here  with the little 
 peninsular ground  (the name , Antibes , Juan-les-Pins, and two islands Ste 
 Marguerite and St Honoras).
 Instead of it there is that huge squared ground tile.

Exactly that ground-tile problem is what I'm trying to track down.

 It would be great if you could send me an exact position which is
 _inside_ the faulty tile. But I at least need general instructions on
 how to find the place. Maybe there's a pattern in these bugs which might
 help me trace it down, but maybe the Nice area is a singularity.
 
 
 Not only NICE area, because i found on VHHH ( which is an other place i use 
 to 
 fly over it)  some (similar ??) bug.
 I will try to give you the difference with Snapshots.

No snapshot needed, just a position.

I need to fetch the relevant tiles from our build machine in San Diego
and don't have the whole scenery available locally, so accurate
positions for the bug reports would make my work so much easier.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-19 Thread Alex Romosan
Ralf Gerlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Scenery V1.0.0 has been built using VMAP0 landmass and shoreline data.

scenery v0.9.8 was also built with the vmap0 landmass and shoreline
data.

looking at:
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/openlayers_sfobay.html?zoom=13lat=37.86284lon=-122.28796layers=B0TFFTFTT
(this is the bay area). i am not really sure how to interpret the
colours but if you look at the berkeley coastline in v1.0.0 you'll see
that the berkeley marina is missing, big chunks of alameda are also
missing, and so on. on the above map it looks like the actual coast is
outlined in a red line, then there is some white (same as the water)
and then there are the red and green chunks (which is the scenery in
v1.0.0). the berkeley marina is present in 0.9.8 (but it disappeared
in subsequent scenery releases). something is wrong (and it's been
wrong for a long time). it will be interesting to compare the current
algorithm with the one used to generate the coastline in 0.9.8 to try
to understand why all these things have disappeared.

--alex--

-- 
| I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active |
|  advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with  |
|  automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion  |
|  and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. |

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-18 Thread gerard robin
On sam 15 mars 2008, Ralf Gerlich wrote:
 Hi Gerard!

 gerard robin wrote:
  The coastline process is wrong (or not existing) here two snapshot near
  LFMN -first,  that one with scenery 0.9.10 which was partly wrong (0.9.8
  was better)
  http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery0.9.10.jpg
 
  -second, the same one with scenery  1.0.0
  http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-1.0.jpg

 Hm, we did check a lot of tiles at random for glitches, but these went
 through our filters.

 Thank you for the pointer, I will check were this is coming from.

 Cheers,
 Ralf


Hello, Ralf 

Could you check Hong Kong  too.
In Scenery 1.0 VHHH is now sitting on a huge  ground area, which is not the 
case in real.

And i guess  that the bay is partly wrong  :(

 
Cheers
-- 
Gérard
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-18 Thread Anders Gidenstam
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, gerard robin wrote:

 Hello, Ralf

 Could you check Hong Kong  too.
 In Scenery 1.0 VHHH is now sitting on a huge  ground area, which is not the
 case in real.

Hi,

What do you think about making a page on the wiki where scenery problems 
could be listed? Then, maybe, the reports would be in one place instead of 
scattered across the mailing list archive.

As more people start to use the 1.0.0 scenery build more problems will be 
found. I can add one: there is a long line of one sided ground polygons
sticking up through the water across the fjord from BGBW.

Cheers,

Anders
-- 
---
Anders Gidenstam
mail: anders(at)gidenstam.org
WWW: http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-18 Thread LeeE
On Tuesday 18 March 2008 17:52, Anders Gidenstam wrote:
 On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, gerard robin wrote:
  Hello, Ralf
 
  Could you check Hong Kong  too.
  In Scenery 1.0 VHHH is now sitting on a huge  ground area,
  which is not the case in real.

 Hi,

 What do you think about making a page on the wiki where scenery
 problems could be listed? Then, maybe, the reports would be in
 one place instead of scattered across the mailing list archive.

 As more people start to use the 1.0.0 scenery build more problems
 will be found. I can add one: there is a long line of one sided
 ground polygons sticking up through the water across the fjord
 from BGBW.

 Cheers,

 Anders

Actually, I think FG really _needs_ a proper bug-tracking system.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-18 Thread Frederic Bouvier
Selon LeeE :

 Actually, I think FG really _needs_ a proper bug-tracking system.

There is this one :
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=583atid=100583

-Fred

-- 
Frédéric Bouvier
http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/  Photo gallery - album photo
http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/   FlightGear Scenery Designer

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-18 Thread Gijs de Rooy
It would be helpfull if someone could write an article about that on the wiki.
I think (almost) nobody, including me, knows that page exists. Since there
are only 4 bugs added since august 2006.
 
We could use maybey other software, like Bugzilla (http://www.bugzilla.org/).
It looks better than what we could now I think and it may be more user-friendly.

Gijs

 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:53:22 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 
 flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] 
 Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed  Selon LeeE :   Actually, I 
 think FG really _needs_ a proper bug-tracking system.  There is this one : 
 http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=583atid=100583  -Fred  --  
 Frédéric Bouvier http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/ Photo gallery - album photo 
 http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/ FlightGear Scenery Designer  
 - 
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 Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-18 Thread LeeE
On Tuesday 18 March 2008 18:53, Frederic Bouvier wrote:
 Selon LeeE :
  Actually, I think FG really _needs_ a proper bug-tracking
  system.

 There is this one :
 http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=583atid=100583

 -Fred

Aha - didn't know about that - thanks.

Now we just have to use it:)

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

2008-03-15 Thread Ralf Gerlich
Hi Gerard!

gerard robin wrote:
 The coastline process is wrong (or not existing) here two snapshot near LFMN
 -first,  that one with scenery 0.9.10 which was partly wrong (0.9.8 was 
 better)
 http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery0.9.10.jpg
 
 -second, the same one with scenery  1.0.0
 http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/Scenery-1.0.jpg

Hm, we did check a lot of tiles at random for glitches, but these went
through our filters.

Thank you for the pointer, I will check were this is coming from.

Cheers,
Ralf

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