Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Jakob Praher
We would have to define what you mean by the term computation. Computation is a way to transform a language syntactically by defined rules. The lambda calculus is a fundamental way of performing such transformation via reduction rules (the alpha, beta, gamma rules). In the end the beta-reduction

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Steve Wart
Simplicity, like productivity, is an engineering metric that can only be measured in the context of a particular application. Most successful programming languages aren't mathematically pure but some make it easier than others to use functional idioms (by which I mean some mechanism to emulate the

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Casey Ransberger
There's always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model and http://www.dalnefre.com/wp/humus/ ...which seem to make concurrency less of a PITA. Like most languages that crystalize a particular style, though, there's some learning involved for folks (like me!) who hadn't really thought about

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Kurt Stephens
On 2/12/12 11:15 AM, Steve Wart wrote: Can the distributed computation model you describe be formalized as a set of rewrite rules, or is the black box model really about a protocol for message dispatch? Attempts to build distributed messaging systems haven't been particularly simple. In fact I

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Hans-Martin Mosner
Am 12.02.2012 20:01, schrieb Kurt Stephens: Many languages do not reify the message itself as an object. I have been musing lately how the Linda model (tuple spaces) could be helpful. Tuples can be understood as messages sent to an anonymous receiver (whoever does a get with a matching

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread John Zabroski
Hi Kurt, Lisp is more expressive than lambda alone since Lisp contains forms that cannot be represented by lambda directly - an encoding must be used. A novel explanation of this math phenomena can be found in Barry Jay's recent book, Pattern Calculus, published via Springer-Verlag. But very

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Kurt Stephens
On 2/12/12 1:19 PM, Hans-Martin Mosner wrote: Am 12.02.2012 20:01, schrieb Kurt Stephens: Many languages do not reify the message itself as an object. I have been musing lately how the Linda model (tuple spaces) could be helpful. We've been using tuple spaces at my current job for 5+ years.

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread John Zabroski
Applying the Linda analogy to object systems has been done before, perhaps most notably by Ehud Shapiro's work on Concurrent Prolog. Ehud once wrote a reply to Gertner in the Communications of the ACM, explaining how he could implement Tuple-space programs as logic programs. The Dining

Re: [fonc] The death of CPU scaling: From one core to many — and why we’re still stuck

2012-02-12 Thread John Zabroski
This is a very good article but it does not mention the ultimate bottleneck above Amdahl's Law: the speed of light is a constant, we cannot change it, therefore poorly designed communication protocols will be the next big target for (operating) systems research as propagation delay will be the

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Julian Leviston
On 13/02/2012, at 6:01 AM, Kurt Stephens wrote: On 2/12/12 11:15 AM, Steve Wart wrote: Can the distributed computation model you describe be formalized as a set of rewrite rules, or is the black box model really about a protocol for message dispatch? Attempts to build distributed messaging

Re: [fonc] The death of CPU scaling: From one core to many — and why we’re still stuck

2012-02-12 Thread David Barbour
I thought the recent article from Herb Sutter was quite good. http://herbsutter.com/welcome-to-the-jungle/ On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 12:53 PM, John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.comwrote: This is a very good article but it does not mention the ultimate bottleneck above Amdahl's Law: the speed of

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Kurt Stephens
On 2/12/12 4:11 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 13/02/2012, at 6:01 AM, Kurt Stephens wrote: If send(sel, rcvr, args) can decomposed into apply(lookup(sel, rcvr, args), rcvr, args), then this follows: Message.new(sel, rcvr, args).lookup().apply() ... I don't follow why a message isn't

Re: [fonc] COLAs or CLOAs? : are lambda systems fundamentally simpler than object systems?

2012-02-12 Thread Julian Leviston
Hiya, On 13/02/2012, at 2:47 PM, Kurt Stephens wrote: Read Ian Piumarta's Open, extensible object models ( http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf ). At a certain level, send(), lookup() and apply() have bootstrap implementations to break the infinite regress. TORT was directly