Re: [fonc] Task management in a world without apps.

2013-11-03 Thread Alan Kay
an ultra high level general purpose language today, we wouldn't use Squeak or any other Smalltalk as a model or a starting place. Cheers, Alan From: karl ramberg karlramb...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org

Re: [fonc] Task management in a world without apps.

2013-10-31 Thread Alan Kay
It's worth noting that this was the scheme at PARC and was used heavily later in Etoys. This is why Smalltalk has unlimited numbers of Projects. Each one is a persistant environment that serves both as a place to make things and as a page of desktop media. There are no apps, only objects

[fonc] People and evidence

2013-09-09 Thread Alan Kay
Kenneth Clarke once remarked that People in the Middle Ages were as passionately interested in truth as we are, but their sense of evidence was very different. Marshall McLuhan said I can't see it until I believe it Neil Postman once remarked that People today have to accept twice as much on

Re: [fonc] Software Crisis (was Re: Final STEP progress report abandoned?)

2013-09-09 Thread Alan Kay
Check out Smallstar by Dan Halbert at Xerox PARC (written up in a PARC bluebook) Cheers, Alan From: John Carlson yottz...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Software Crisis

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?

2013-09-08 Thread Alan Kay
From: Paul Homer paul_ho...@yahoo.ca To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned? Hi Alan, I can't predict

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?

2013-09-03 Thread Alan Kay
AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned? That's great news! We desperately need fresh air. As you know, the way a problem is framed bounds its solutions. Do you already know what problems to work on or are you soliciting proposals? Jonathan From: Alan Kay alan.n

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?

2013-09-03 Thread Alan Kay
of my time right now is being spent in extending environments for research. Cheers Alan From: Kevin Driedger linuxbox+f...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 2:41 PM Subject

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?

2013-09-03 Thread Alan Kay
Yes, the communication with aliens problem -- in many different aspects -- is going to be a big theme for VPRI over the next few years. Cheers, Alan From: Tristan Slominski tristan.slomin...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report abandoned?

2013-09-02 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Dan It actually got written and given to NSF and approved, etc., a while ago, but needs a little more work before posting on the VPRI site.  Meanwhile we've been consumed by setting up a number of additional, and wider scale, research projects, and this has occupied pretty much all of my

Re: [fonc] Deoptimization as fallback

2013-07-30 Thread Alan Kay
This is how Smalltalk has always treated its primitives, etc. Cheers, Alan From: Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:22 PM Subject: [fonc] Deoptimization as fallback

Re: [fonc] 90% glue code

2013-04-19 Thread Alan Kay
The only really good -- and reasonable accurate -- book about the history of Lick, ARPA-IPTO (no D, that is went things went bad), and Xerox PARC is Dream Machines by Mitchel Waldrop. Cheers, Alan From: Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net To:

Re: [fonc] 90% glue code

2013-04-18 Thread Alan Kay
Hi David This is an interesting slant on a 50+ year old paramount problem (and one that is even more important today). Licklider called it the communicating with aliens problem. He said 50 years ago this month that if we succeed in constructing the 'intergalactic network' then our main

Re: [fonc] 90% glue code

2013-04-18 Thread Alan Kay
of wonderful things in Biology that are out of scale with our computer technologies. So we should find the things in both Bio and Anthro that will help us think. Cheers, Alan From: Jeff Gonis jeff.go...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals

Re: [fonc] 90% glue code

2013-04-18 Thread Alan Kay
) than the ones that need to be dealt with when trying for human to human or human to alien overlap. Cheers, Alan From: David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013

Re: [fonc] Old Boxer Paper

2013-03-27 Thread Alan Kay
Yep, it had some good ideas. Cheers, Alan From: Francisco Garau fga...@gmail.com To: fonc@vpri.org fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:51 AM Subject: [fonc] Old Boxer Paper It reminds me of scratch etoys

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2013-03-26 Thread Alan Kay
thesis I'd love to know about it.  My searches have been fruitless. Monty On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: ... Dave Fisher's thesis A Control Definition Language CMU 1970 is a very clean approach to thinking about environments for LISP like languages. He

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2013-03-26 Thread Alan Kay
The first ~100 pages are still especially good as food for thought Cheers, Alan From: Duncan Mak duncan...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Cc: mo...@codetransform.com mo...@codetransform.com Sent

Re: [fonc] Building blocks and use of text

2013-02-14 Thread Alan Kay
And of course, for some time there has been Croquet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project ... and its current manifestation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Cobalt These are based on Dave Reed's 1978 MIT thesis and were first implemented about 10 years ago at Viewpoints. Besides

Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
One of the original reasons for message-based was the simple relativistic one. What we decided is that trying to send messages to explicit receivers had real scaling problems, whereas receiving messages is a good idea. Cheers, Alan From: Eugen Leitl

Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
, Alan From: Jeff Gonis jeff.go...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented I see no one

Re: [fonc] Design of web, POLs for rules. Fuzz testing nile

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
Hi John Or you could look at the actual problem a web has to solve, which is to present arbitrary information to a user that comes from any of several billion sources. Looked at from this perspective we can see that the current web design could hardly be more wrong headed. For example, what is

Re: [fonc] Design of web, POLs for rules. Fuzz testing nile

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
Or the (earlier) Smalltalk Models Views Controllers mechanism which had a dynamic language with dynamic graphics to allow quite a bit of flexibility with arbitrary models.  From: David Harris dphar...@telus.net To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals

Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
On 02/14/2013 02:26 AM, Alan Kay wrote: Hi Thiago I think you are on a good path. One way to think about this problem is that the broker is a human programmer who has received a module from half way around the world that claims to provide important services. The programmer would confine

Re: [fonc] Design of web, POLs for rules. Fuzz testing nile

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Design of web, POLs for rules. Fuzz testing nile Alan Kay wrote: Or you could look at the actual problem a web has to solve, which is to present arbitrary information to a user that comes from any of several billion

Re: [fonc] Design of web, POLs for rules. Fuzz testing nile

2013-02-13 Thread Alan Kay
My suggestion is to learn a little about biology and anthropology and media as it intertwines with human thought, then check back in. From: Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, February 13,

Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented

2013-02-12 Thread Alan Kay
Message Oriented This question was prompted by a quote by Joe Armstrong about OOP[1]. It is for Alan Kay, but I'm totally fine with a relevant link.  Also, I don't know and I don't have time for this are perfectly okay. Alan, when the term Object oriented you coined has been hijacked by Java and Co

Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented

2013-02-12 Thread Alan Kay
easier than AI, but has some tinges of it. Got any ideas? Cheers, Alan From: Jeff Gonis jeff.go...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [fonc

Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented

2013-02-12 Thread Alan Kay
Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Terminology: Object Oriented vs Message Oriented Alan Kay wrote: A little more history ... The first Smalltalk (-72) was modern (as used below

Re: [fonc] yet another meta compiler compiler

2013-02-08 Thread Alan Kay
Looks nice to me! But no ivory towers around to pillage. (However planting a few seeds is almost always a good idea) Cheers, Alan From: Charles Perkins ch...@kuracali.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, February 8, 2013 3:52

Re: [fonc] deriving a POL from existing code

2013-01-08 Thread Alan Kay
Yes indeed, I quite agree with David.  One of the main points in the 2012 STEPS report (when I get around to finally finishing it and getting it out) is exactly David's -- that it is a huge design task to pull off a good DSL -- actually it is a double design task: you first need to come up

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report?

2013-01-04 Thread Alan Kay
It turns out that the due date is actually a due interval that starts Jan 1st and extends for a few months ... so we are working on putting the report together amongst other activities ... Cheers, Alan From: Mathnerd314 mathnerd314@gmail.com To:

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report?

2013-01-04 Thread Alan Kay
Sliding deadlines very often allow other pursuits to creep in ... Cheers, Alan From: Dale Schumacher dale.schumac...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 8:59 AM Subject: Re

Re: [fonc] Current topics

2013-01-03 Thread Alan Kay
To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Current topics On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: As humans, we are used to being sloppy about message creation and sending

[fonc] Current topics

2013-01-01 Thread Alan Kay
The most recent discussions get at a number of important issues whose pernicious snares need to be handled better. In an analogy to sending messages most of the time successfully through noisy channels -- where the noise also affects whatever we add to the messages to help (and we may have

Re: [fonc] A META-II for C that fits in a half a sheet of paper

2012-11-22 Thread Alan Kay
Oh yes ... I'd forgotten that I'd given this paper to the 1401 restoration group at the Computer History Museum (the 1401 was my first computer more than 50 years ago now -- it was a bit odd even relative to the more diverse designs of its day) http://ibm-1401.info/AlanKay-META-II.html

Re: [fonc] Interview with Alan Kay

2012-11-16 Thread Alan Kay
accomplishments as well, so the destruction was total. Cheers, Alan From: Jarek Rzeszótko jrzeszo...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Interview with Alan Kay Hi, Very

Re: [fonc] Final STEP progress report?

2012-11-07 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Carl Just to keep on saying it ... the STEPS project had/has completely different goals than the Smalltalk project -- STEPS really is a science project -- or a collection of science projects -- that has never been aimed at a deployable artifact, but instead is aimed at finding better and

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay in the news [german]

2012-07-19 Thread Alan Kay
is quite different from steel string jazz chops -- it's taken a while to unlearn some spinal reflexes that were developed a lifetime ago. Cheers, Alan From: John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay in the news [german]

2012-07-18 Thread Alan Kay
and faculty and students were very hospitable, and it was fun to help them dedicate the building. Cheers, Alan From: Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:19 AM Subject: [fonc] Alan Kay

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay in the news [german]

2012-07-18 Thread Alan Kay
feels very different physically, but also mentally, and has many extra dimensions of nuance and color that is both its charm, and also makes it quite a separate learning experience. Cheers, Alan From: Long Nguyen cgb...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n

Re: [fonc] Question about the Burroughs B5000 series and apability-based computing

2012-05-28 Thread Alan Kay
From: Shawn Morel shawnmo...@me.com To: Kevin Jones investtcart...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Cc: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Question about the Burroughs B5000 series and apability

Re: [fonc] LightTable UI

2012-04-24 Thread Alan Kay
(Hi Toby) And don't forget that John McCarthy was one of the very first to try to automatically compute inverses of functions (this grew out of his PhD work at Princeton in the mid-50s ...) Cheers, Alan From: Toby Schachman t...@alum.mit.edu To:

Re: [fonc] Smalltalk-75

2012-04-20 Thread Alan Kay
=sM1bNR4DmhU  .:( Mom Loved Him Best - w/ Alan in the audience! ):. cheers* Jb Le 20 avr. 2012 à 03:20, Fernando Cacciola a écrit : On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, part of it is that the 15 year old was exceptional -- his name is Steve Putz

Re: [fonc] Smalltalk-75

2012-04-19 Thread Alan Kay
Well, part of it is that the 15 year old was exceptional -- his name is Steve Putz, and as with several others of our children programmers -- such as Bruce Horn, who was the originator of the Mac Finder -- became a very good professional. And that Smalltalk (basically Smalltalk-72) was quite

Re: [fonc] Ask For Forgiveness Programming - Or How We'll Program 1000 Cores

2012-04-14 Thread Alan Kay
This is a good idea (and, interestingly, was a common programming style in the first Simula) ... Cheers, Alan From: David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [fonc]

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-12 Thread Alan Kay
Hi John The simple answer is that Tom's stuff happened in the early 80s, and I was out of PARC working on things other than Smalltalk. I'm trying to remember something similar that was done earlier (by someone can't recall who, maybe at CMU) that was a good convincer that this was not a

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-12 Thread Alan Kay
Yes, that was part of Tom's work ... Cheers, Alan From: John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org; Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru What does

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-11 Thread Alan Kay
The survey paper is just a survey. Dave's thesis is how to make all the control structure by extending a McCarthy like tiny kernel. Still gold today. Cheers, Alan From: Eugene Wallingford walli...@cs.uni.edu To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-11 Thread Alan Kay
Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru This one seems to be available as a technical report as well: http://infolab.stanford.edu/TR/CS-TR-65-20.html Monty On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: One more

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-11 Thread Alan Kay
, Alan From: Shawn Morel shawnmo...@me.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Cc: Florin Mateoc fmat...@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru This thread is a real treasure

Re: [fonc] Migrating / syncing computation live-documents

2012-04-11 Thread Alan Kay
Croquet does replicated distributed computing. LOCUS did freely migrating system nodes. One actually needs both (though a lot can be done with today's capacities just using the Croquet techniques). Cheers, Alan From: Shawn Morel shawnmo...@me.com To: Alan

Re: [fonc] Kernel Maru

2012-04-10 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Julian (Adding to Ian's comments) Doing as Ian suggests and trying out variants can be an extremely illuminating experience (for example, BBN Lisp (1.85) had three or four choices for what was meant by a lambda closure -- three of the options I remember were (a) do Algol -- this is

Re: [fonc] Publish/subscribe vs. send

2012-03-20 Thread Alan Kay
One of the motivations is to handle some kinds of scaling more gracefully. If you think about things from a module's point of view, the fewer details it has to know about resources it needs (and about its environment in general) the better. It can be thought of as a next stage in going from

Re: [fonc] Naive question

2012-03-19 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Benoit This is basically what publish and subscribe schemes are all about. Linda is a simple coordination protocol for organizing such loose couplings. There are sketches of such mechanisms in most of the STEPS reports Spreadsheets are simple versions of this The Playground language

Re: [fonc] [IAEP] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)

2012-03-16 Thread Alan Kay
] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell) On 15/03/2012 14:20, Alan Kay wrote: Alex Warth did both a standard Prolog and an English based language one using OMeta in both Javascript, and in Smalltalk. I must have a look at these. Thanks for all of the references. I was working my way through

Re: [fonc] [IAEP] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)

2012-03-15 Thread Alan Kay
...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] [IAEP] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell) On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: You don't want to use assert

Re: [fonc] Dynabook ideas

2012-03-15 Thread Alan Kay
, March 15, 2012 3:59 PM Subject: [fonc] Dynabook ideas Le 15/03/2012 00:44, Alan Kay a écrit : To me the Dynabook has always been 95% a service model and 5% physical specs (there were three main physical ideas for it, only one was the tablet). Err, what those ideas were?  I have seen videos of you

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
/iPad has persuaded them that this will be (commercially) viable as a model for general public distribution of trustable software. In that world, the Squeak plugin could be certified as safe to download in a way that System Admins might believe. On Feb 29, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Alan Kay wrote

Re: [fonc] [IAEP] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Scott This seems like a plan that should be done and tried and carefully evaluated. I think the approach is good. It could be not quite enough to work, but it should give rise to a lot of useful information for further passes at this. 1. Psychologist O.K. Moore in the early 60s at Yale and

Re: [fonc] [IAEP] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
...@laptop.org To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: IAEP SugarLabs i...@lists.sugarlabs.org; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org; Viewpoints Research a...@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [IAEP] [fonc] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell) On Wed, Mar 14

Re: [fonc] Apple and hardware (was: Error trying to compile COLA)

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
:17 AM Subject: [fonc] Apple and hardware (was: Error trying to compile COLA) Alan Kay wrote on Wed, 14 Mar 2012 05:53:21 -0700 (PDT) A hardware vendor with huge volumes (like Apple) should be able to get a CPU vendor to make HW that offers real protection, and at a granularity that makes more

Re: [fonc] Talking Typwriter [was: Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)]

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
martin.mccl...@vmware.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Cc: Viewpoints Research a...@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Talking Typwriter [was: Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)] On 03/14/2012 09:54 AM, Alan Kay wrote: 1. Psychologist O.K

Re: [fonc] Apple and hardware (was: Error trying to compile COLA)

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
) Alan Kay wrote on Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Yep, I was there and trying to get the Newton project off the awful ATT chip they had first chosen. Interesting - a few months ago I studied the datasheets for the Hobbit and read all the old CRISP papers and found this chip rather cute

Re: [fonc] [IAEP] Barbarians at the gate! (Project Nell)

2012-03-14 Thread Alan Kay
71 apart so dramatically. -Shaun On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Scott -- 1. I will see if I can get one of these scanned for you. Moore tended to publish in journals and there is very little of his stuff available on line. 2.a. if (ab

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-03-13 Thread Alan Kay
Admins might believe. On Feb 29, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Alan Kay wrote: Windows (especially) is so porous that SysAdmins (especially in school districts) will not allow teachers to download .exe files. This wipes out the Squeak plugin that provides all the functionality. But there is still the browser

Re: [fonc] Sorting the WWW mess

2012-03-01 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Loup Someone else said that about links. Browsing about either knowing where you are (and going) and/or about dealing with a rough max of 100 items. After that search is necessary. However, Ted Nelson said a lot in each of the last 5 decades about what kinds of linking do the most good.

[fonc] Chrome Penetration

2012-03-01 Thread Alan Kay
My friend Peter Norvig is the Director of Research at Google. I told him that I had heard of an astounding jump in the penetration of Chrome. He says the best numbers they have at present is that Chrome is 20% to 30% penetrated ... Cheers, Alan

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-29 Thread Alan Kay
don't know.  It could even be domain-dependent.) I agree however that having both (POLs + tools) would be much better, and is definitely worth pursuing.  I'll think about it. Loup. Alan Kay wrote: With regard to your last point -- making POLs -- I don't think we are there yet. It is most

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-29 Thread Alan Kay
From: Duncan Mak duncan...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA Hello Alan, On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Alan Kay alan.n

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-28 Thread Alan Kay
trying to compile COLA Alan Kay wrote: Hi Loup As I've said and written over the years about this project, it is not possible to compare features in a direct way here. Yes, I'm aware of that.  The problem rises when I do advocacy. A response I often get is but with only 20,000 lines

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-28 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Reuben Yep. One of the many finesses in the STEPS project was to point out that requiring OSs to have drivers for everything misses what being networked is all about. In a nicer distributed systems design (such as Popek's LOCUS), one would get drivers from the devices automatically, and

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-28 Thread Alan Kay
of these ideas were done better later. I think by Leler, and certainly by Joe Goguen, and others. Cheers, Alan From: Jakob Praher ja...@praher.info To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:52 PM

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-27 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Julian I should probably comment on this, since it seems that the STEPS reports haven't made it clear enough. STEPS is a science experiment not an engineering project. It is not at all about making and distributing an operating system etc., but about trying to investigate the tradeoffs

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-27 Thread Alan Kay
to receive messages, but should not have to send to explicit receivers. This is a kind of multi-cast I guess (but I think of it more like publish/subscribe). Cheers, Alan From: Tony Garnock-Jones tonygarnockjo...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com

Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA

2012-02-27 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Tony I like what the BOOM/BLOOM people are doing quite a bit. Their version of Datalog + Time is definitely in accord with lots of our prejudices ... Cheers, Alan From: Tony Garnock-Jones tonygarnockjo...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc

Re: [fonc] Raspberry Pi

2012-02-08 Thread Alan Kay
...@loup-vaillant.fr To: fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Raspberry Pi Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: Alan Kay wrote: We have done very little of this so far, and very few optimizations. We can give live dynamic demos in part because Dan Amelang's Nile

Re: [fonc] Raspberry Pi

2012-02-08 Thread Alan Kay
-- for Problem Oriented Languages) is why we took this approach. Cheers, Alan From: Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr To: fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Raspberry Pi Alan Kay wrote: Hi Loup Actually, your last guess

Re: [fonc] Raspberry Pi

2012-02-07 Thread Alan Kay
Hi Jecel In the difference between research and engineering department I think I would first port a version of Smalltalk to this system. One of the fun side-projects done in the early part of the Squeak system was when John Maloney and a Berkeley grad student ported Squeak to a luggage tag

Re: [fonc] PARC founder Jacon Goldman dies at 90

2011-12-22 Thread Alan Kay
Yes, Jack was a driving force and quite a character in so many ways. Cheers, Alan From: Long Nguyen cgb...@gmail.com To: fonc@vpri.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 9:47 AM Subject: [fonc] PARC founder Jacon Goldman dies at 90

Re: [fonc] History of computing talks at SJSU

2011-12-17 Thread Alan Kay
to be used). Cheers, Alan From: Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] History of computing talks at SJSU Below. On Dec

Re: [fonc] History of computing talks at SJSU

2011-12-16 Thread Alan Kay
looking to hear more from Alan Kay -- you'll find a talk from him and several other big names in computer science here -- thanks to San Jose State University.  http://www.sjsu.edu/atn/services/webcasting/archives/fall_2011/hist/computing.html  -- Kim

Re: [CAG] Re: [fonc] Fexpr the Ultimate Lambda

2011-11-26 Thread Alan Kay
loved that little system. This led to the ST-72 eval really being a kind of cascaded apply ... And there's no question that once you aim at real objects a distributed eval makes great sense. Cheers, Alan From: Carl Hewitt hew...@concurrency.biz To: Alan Kay

Re: [CAG] Re: [fonc] Fexpr the Ultimate Lambda

2011-11-25 Thread Alan Kay
Schumacher dale.schumac...@gmail.com Cc: Programming Language Design pi...@googlegroups.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group fr...@redfish.com; computational-actors-gu...@googlegroups.com computational-actors-gu...@googlegroups.com; Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals

Re: [fonc] Tension between meta-object protocol and encapsulation

2011-09-07 Thread Alan Kay
We've already discussed this in other contexts. This is what I meant when I talked about levels of meta and why invoking a function is more benign than using a global assignment (which is tantamount to redefining a function under program control), etc. And certainly to allow unprotected

Re: [fonc] Tension between meta-object protocol and encapsulation

2011-09-07 Thread Alan Kay
Yep. Cheers, Alan From: David Barbour dmbarb...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Tension between meta-object protocol and encapsulation On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:48 PM,

Re: [fonc] Re: a little more FLEXibility

2011-09-05 Thread Alan Kay
I hate to be the one to bring this up, but this has always been a feature of all the Smalltalks ... one has to ask, what is there about current general practice that makes this at all remarkable? ... Cheers, Alan From: Murat Girgin gir...@gmail.com To:

Re: a little more FLEXibility (was: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon)

2011-09-02 Thread Alan Kay
PhDs in the 60s when he was an ARPA funder). Cheers, Alan From: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. je...@merlintec.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:17 PM Subject: a little more FLEXibility

P.S. Re: a little more FLEXibility (was: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon)

2011-09-02 Thread Alan Kay
=93gCOAAACAAJ Cheers, Alan From: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com To: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. je...@merlintec.com Cc: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 8:23 AM Subject: Re: a little more FLEXibility (was: [fonc] Re: Ceres

Re: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon

2011-09-01 Thread Alan Kay
I'm so glad I never read this before (and am looking for ways to forget that I just did ) Cheers, Alan From: John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Cc: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. je

Re: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon

2011-08-31 Thread Alan Kay
Subject: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon Alan Kay wrote: I'm glad that he has finally come to appreciate OOP. There are two kinds of people on this list. Those who can tell when Alan is joking and those that can't. :-D Don't know which I am but I can at least say that the OOP that is in Oberon

P.S. Re: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon

2011-08-31 Thread Alan Kay
From: Eduardo Cavazos wayo.cava...@gmail.com To: fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 12:54 AM Subject: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon Alan Kay wrote: I'm glad that he has finally come to appreciate OOP. There are two kinds of people on this list. Those who can

Re: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon

2011-08-31 Thread Alan Kay
From: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. je...@merlintec.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: Ceres and Oberon Alan, thanks for the detailed history! 1966 was the year I entered grad school (having

Re: [fonc] Ceres and Oberon

2011-08-30 Thread Alan Kay
Sure. He was invited to spend a year in CSL in the mid 70s and decided to do an Alto like machine with an Alto-like UI and that ran Alto-like languages (turned out to be an odd combination of Mesa and Smalltalk). Cheers, Alan From: Jakob Praher

Re: [fonc] Ceres and Oberon

2011-08-30 Thread Alan Kay
I'm glad that he has finally come to appreciate OOP. Cheers, Alan From: Jakob Praher ja...@praher.info To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Ceres and Oberon

[fonc] Messages

2011-08-20 Thread Alan Kay
(For example) Try to imagine a system where the parts only receive messages but never explicitly send them. This is one example of what I meant when I requested that computer people pay more attention to what is in between the parts, than to the parts -- the Japanese have a great short word

Re: [fonc] Extending object oriented programming in Smalltalk

2011-08-18 Thread Alan Kay
One way to try to think about the idea of Lisp and the larger interesting issues, is to read the Advice Taker paper by John McCarthy (ca. 56-58 Programs With Common Sense) which is what got him thinking about interactive intelligent agents, and got him to start thinking about creating a

Re: [fonc] Extending object oriented programming in Smalltalk

2011-08-18 Thread Alan Kay
ight travel, cool space ship, 3d printers, alien super brain race that had disappeared (the Krell), monsters from the ID.To me Lisp is like something created by the Krell. "As though my ape's brain could contain the secrets of the Krell."I asked John if he had seen the movie and he had.

Re: [fonc] Extending object oriented programming in Smalltalk

2011-08-17 Thread Alan Kay
Take a look at Landin's papers and especially ISWIM (The next 700 programming languages) You don't so much want to learn Lisp as to learn the idea of Lisp Cheers, Alan From: karl ramberg karlramb...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org

Re: [fonc] Physics and Types

2011-08-05 Thread Alan Kay
of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Physics and Types Oh awesome! Thank you both.  That's got to be one of the single most profound uses of computers I've ever run across. Warm regards, ~Simon On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Alan Kay alan.n

Re: [fonc] Physics and Types

2011-08-05 Thread Alan Kay
, Aug 05, 2011 at 03:43:04AM -0700, BGB wrote:     On 8/4/2011 6:19 PM, Alan Kay wrote:       Here's the link to the paper       [1]http://www.vpri.org/pdf/rn2005001_learning.pdf     inference:     it is not that basic math and physics are fundamentally so difficult to     understand

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