[fonc] greetings: new here...

2008-11-27 Thread BGB
well, I was referred here by someone I know, and it seems like it it may be possible to have interesting conversations... granted, I am not so fammiliar at present with either this group or what everyone here is trying to accomplish. I was given a little doubt though by the initial

Re: [fonc]( picoVerse-:( LambdaLisp Assembler needs testing ) )

2008-11-30 Thread BGB
I don't know what the point of this is, but oh well... (personally, the idea seems a little silly, and the context seems to not make a whole lot of sense, but oh well...). but, in any case, one can easily enough track function calls in a manner similar to a profiler, where each time a

Re: [fonc]( picoVerse-:( LambdaLisp Assembler needs testing ) )

2008-11-30 Thread BGB
or: one could produce the code to be run as specialized zip files, filled with some-odd Java class files, and any data files; the zip file is recieved, unpacked into a local directory, then executed with a specialized/modified Java VM (mostly modified to keep track of what things are run); any

Re: [fonc]( picoVerse-:( LambdaLisp Assembler needs testing ) )

2008-11-30 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: Michael FIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [fonc]( picoVerse-:( LambdaLisp Assembler needs testing ) ) Kjell Godo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Currency ? ! -- Now let's

Re: [fonc] greetings: new here...

2008-11-30 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: John Leuner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] greetings: new here... more so, not only is this codebase written in C, but it also compiles C, and links the newly

[fonc] maybe of interest: VM directions...

2008-12-01 Thread BGB
dunno if this is the kind of thing that is on-topic/of-interest here, I will see... figured I would include it (this being from an email to someone I know): --- did start a little bit implementing some of the things I mentioned a few days ago (restructuring the MI mechanism, making

[fonc] ok, thoughts: VM design...

2008-12-02 Thread BGB
well, in writing this I will at least try to organize my thoughts, and speak more of general ideas than implementation details (granted, I am far more inclined towards the latter than the former). I will allow that probably many of those here will strongly disagree with all I have to say, but

Re: [fonc] x86_64...

2008-12-05 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: Aaron Gray [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] x86_64... apparently both this, and my effort, had independently discovered the idea of having 2 different this/self

[fonc] ok: addon, stacks and registers...

2008-12-07 Thread BGB
well, my last comment may have been a little harsh on register VMs. so, on each side there are costs and gains. for this, I will focus on interpreters, since this is the main area where the debate is relevant. stack VM, pros: typically very simple to target; instruction stream is usually

[fonc] misc: request opinions...

2008-12-29 Thread BGB
for the people here in this group: what are your opinions of .NET? what of open-source alternatives, such as Mono and Portable.NET / dotGNU? what of the Java VM? what about LLVM and like? or, maybe, the AVM2 / Tamarin? .. what of the relative merits and detractors between them? what particular

Re: [fonc] Program representation

2010-05-10 Thread BGB
(sorry if similar is already in use...). like having documentation in a hypertext form, and having code contain links into the docs, and from the docs back into the code?... markup could be done similar to a wiki, and the editor can interpret comments containing wiki-links as linking elsewhere

Re: [fonc] Program representation

2010-05-10 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: John Nilsson To: Fundamentals of New Computing Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Program representation On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:29 PM, BGB cr88...@hotmail.com wrote: like having documentation in a hypertext form

Re: [fonc] Reverse OMeta and Emulation

2010-06-20 Thread BGB
can't say exactly... but, before I wrote an interpreter for x86 (basically, like an emulator, but it doesn't bother with faking the entire system). but, in this case, I had basically used some logic from an assembler of mine to essentially disassemble the machine code into a higher-level

Re: [fonc] Reverse OMeta and Emulation

2010-06-22 Thread BGB
my effort had not gone nearly so high up the abstraction tree, but instead operated in a space more like an abstracted x86 machine. moving to a much higher level model, such as that of GCC IR or LLVM IR, would likely be difficult to pull off effectively starting from real machine code, such

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-08 Thread BGB
(pardon the top-post) granted, I probably don't speak for others here, who may have differing opinions, I just speak for myself... I am not formally involved with the project in question here, but work on some of my own stuff in a similar domain (VM and compiler technology). well, that is

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-08 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: John Zabroski To: Fundamentals of New Computing Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] goals I personally do not believe technology actually improves lives. Usually, it is the opposite. Technology creates instant

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-08 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] goals On 09/07/2010, at 1:44 AM, John Zabroski wrote: I personally do not believe technology actually improves

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-08 Thread BGB
(pardon this thread's continued existence...). well, each generation has to have come from somewhere... but, yeah (prior to the big ethics issue), the general point I tried to make is that it is generally much more a matter of pragmatics (what people can get from technology or use it to

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-08 Thread BGB
much agreed. pardon my likely inelegant extension: seemingly, nearly any problem can be abstracted, and a set of more elegant solutions can be devised to long-standing problems. for example, to abstract over the HW, there was the CPU instruction set; to abstract over the instruction set,

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-09 Thread BGB
yeah. I guess a lot depends on other factors though. for example, is a lot of this added code because: the programmer has little idea what he was doing, and so just wildly copy-pasted everywhere and made a big mess?... has lots of code which is actually beneficial, such as doing error checking

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-13 Thread BGB
yes. there is much emphasis on people understanding an entire system, whereas often a programmer does not need to have such comprehensive understanding. in a large codebase, for example, parts of the project will come into view as one works on them, and when one moves elsewhere they may pass

Re: [fonc] goals

2010-07-14 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: K. K. Subramaniam subb...@gmail.com To: fonc@vpri.org Cc: BGB cr88...@hotmail.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] goals On Wednesday 14 Jul 2010 9:25:11 am BGB wrote: there is much emphasis on people understanding an entire system

Re: [fonc] automation

2010-07-14 Thread BGB
I think it is mostly because the internet is composed of well-defined / agreed-upon protocols and data formats. each part is largely decoupled from the others. it sends and accepts data, and it responds to whatever is happening. often, the protocols are very much layered, with most layers not

Re: [fonc] On inventing the computing microscope/telescope for thedynamic semantic web

2010-10-10 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: Waldemar Kornewald wkornew...@freenet.de To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] On inventing the computing microscope/telescope for thedynamic semantic web On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 8:28

Re: [fonc] Spec-Driven Self-Testing Code

2010-10-10 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:21 AM Subject: [fonc] Spec-Driven Self-Testing Code -- Does anyone know about a language (possibly something in smalltalk) that involves

Re: [fonc] Spec-Driven Self-Testing Code

2010-10-14 Thread BGB
- Original Message - From: Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [fonc] Spec-Driven Self-Testing Code On 11/10/2010, at 12:24 PM, BGB wrote: -- Does anyone know about a language

Fwd: Re: [fonc] Software and Motivation

2011-02-19 Thread BGB
Original Message Subject:Re: [fonc] Software and Motivation Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 04:01:22 -0700 From: BGB cr88...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org CC: David Harris dphar...@telus.net On 2/19/2011 1:06 AM, David Harris wrote

Re: [fonc] Beats

2011-05-17 Thread BGB
On 5/16/2011 9:22 PM, Ian Piumarta wrote: Dear Josh, Thanks for posting this! Thought you guys would get a kick out of this YAML-WAV sequencer written in Ruby: https://github.com/jstrait/beats I think this is pretty cool. (It puts us well on the way to archiving the entire output of

Re: [fonc] Parsimony (was: Alto-2?)

2011-05-28 Thread BGB
On 5/27/2011 4:29 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: snip... coming out of lurk mode for the moment (well, also no-one has really been talking to me recently either...) [Wireworld Computer] It is very cute. The circuit style of the Wireworld might actually be the way of the future if quantum

Re: [fonc] Static typing and/vs. boot strap-able, small kernel, comprehensible, user modifiable systems

2011-06-04 Thread BGB
On 6/3/2011 8:37 PM, Scott McLoughlin wrote: For many, many moons, I've examined the early Smalltalk books, small bootstrap Forth systems, Lisp based systems (implementing a large subset of CL decades ago) and the like. In recent years, I've taken an interest in type systems and typed

Re: [fonc] languages

2011-06-05 Thread BGB
On 6/5/2011 4:48 PM, Steve Wart wrote: I like both Smalltalk and APL. I disagree with the assumption that operator precedence is a big hurdle for people learning Smalltalk. At least I find mathematical expressions in Smalltalk to be clearer than their counterparts in Lisp. I like the following

Re: Terseness, precedence, deprogramming (was Re: [fonc] languages)

2011-06-05 Thread BGB
On 6/5/2011 7:06 PM, David Leibs wrote: I love APL! Learning APL is really all about learning the idioms and how to apply them. This takes quite a lot of training time. Doing this kind of training will change the way you think. Alan Perlis quote: A language that doesn't affect the way

Re: [fonc] Re: Electrical Actors?

2011-06-06 Thread BGB
On 6/6/2011 12:18 AM, Casey Ransberger wrote: Below:) On Jun 5, 2011, at 11:19 PM, C. Scott Ananiancsc...@laptop.org wrote: I explored this idea a bit once upon a time in the context of Java: http://cscott.net/Publications/design.pdf The bibliography cites most of the related work I know

Re: [fonc] languages

2011-06-06 Thread BGB
of little things (implementing stuff, thinking oh well, this would be nifty...) happens to allow a few C-like constructions to be written. also: buf=new char[256]; str=Hello; t=buf; s=str; while(*t++=*s++); funny how this works sometimes... or such... On Jun 5, 2011, at 11:55 PM, BGB cr88

Re: [fonc] languages

2011-06-06 Thread BGB
On 6/6/2011 6:05 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net mailto:jul...@leviston.net wrote: Is a language I program in necessarily limiting in its expressibility? Yes. All communication architectures are necessarily limiting in

Re: [fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-08 Thread BGB
On 6/8/2011 9:20 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: Tanks everyone for answering on this so much... Comment/Question below, On 09/06/2011, at 4:56 AM, Kevin Jones wrote: I really don't understand what this means: typedef struct object *(*method_t)(struct object *receiver, ...); method_t is a

Re: [fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-08 Thread BGB
On 6/8/2011 10:03 PM, Josh Gargus wrote: Looks like you beat me to the punch on my last email... On Jun 8, 2011, at 9:39 PM, BGB wrote: apparently, some people don't like using typedef for some reason I am not entirely sure of... According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

Re: [fonc] Issues with understanding obj.c

2011-06-09 Thread BGB
On 6/8/2011 11:36 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: Answering my own question... On 09/06/2011, at 4:27 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: See below... On 09/06/2011, at 2:59 PM, Josh Gargus wrote: I really don't understand what this means: typedef struct object *(*method_t)(struct object *receiver,

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-09 Thread BGB
On 6/9/2011 12:56 AM, Josh Gargus wrote: On May 31, 2011, at 7:30 AM, Alan Kay wrote: Hi Cornelius There are lots of egregiously wrong things in the web design. Perhaps one of the simplest is that the browser folks have lacked the perspective to see that the browser is not like an

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-09 Thread BGB
?' Toby On 9 June 2011 10:25, Josh Gargusj...@schwa.ca wrote: On Jun 9, 2011, at 2:04 AM, BGB wrote: On 6/9/2011 12:56 AM, Josh Gargus wrote: On May 31, 2011, at 7:30 AM, Alan Kay wrote: Hi Cornelius There are lots of egregiously wrong things in the web design. Perhaps one

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-09 Thread BGB
On 6/9/2011 12:20 PM, Josh Gargus wrote: On Jun 9, 2011, at 12:06 PM, BGB wrote: On 6/9/2011 11:10 AM, Josh Gargus wrote: That all sounds very cool. However, I don't think that it's feasible to try to ship something like this as standard in all browsers, if only for political reasons

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-10 Thread BGB
On 6/10/2011 7:33 AM, Chris Warburton wrote: On Thu, 2011-06-09 at 11:42 -0700, BGB wrote: interesting... less painfully slow than I would have expected from the description... I wasn't thinking exactly like run an emulator, run OS in emulator, but more like, a browser plugin which looked

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-10 Thread BGB
On 6/10/2011 10:24 AM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: On Jun 9, 2011, at 5:58 AM, Julian Levistonjul...@leviston.net wrote: On 09/06/2011, at 7:04 PM, BGB wrote: actually, possibly a relevant question here, would be why Java applets largely fell on their face, but Flash largely took off (in all its

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-10 Thread BGB
On 6/10/2011 12:45 PM, Max OrHai wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:09 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: snip ... there is not a whole lot that seems in common between a browser and an OS. yes, there is Chrome OS, but I sort of suspect

history (Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-10 Thread BGB
(sorry, I don't know if this belongs on-list or not...). On 6/10/2011 1:44 PM, Max OrHai wrote: Well, INTP here, so at least we have /some/ common ground. yeah... I think I generally get along well enough with most people, in general... well, except Q's, which are basically people who

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-11 Thread BGB
On 6/11/2011 6:30 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 1:40 AM, BGBcr88...@gmail.com wrote: The responsiveness of exploratory programming environments (such as the Smalltalk programming environment) allows the programmer to concentrate on the task at hand rather than being

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread BGB
On 6/13/2011 1:33 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 12/06/2011, at 1:00 PM, BGB wrote: image-based systems have their own sets of drawbacks though... dynamic reload could be a good enough compromise IMO, if done well... I don't follow this train of thought. Everything runs in an image. That's

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread BGB
On 6/13/2011 3:19 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 13/06/2011, at 7:50 PM, BGB wrote: On 6/13/2011 1:33 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 12/06/2011, at 1:00 PM, BGB wrote: image-based systems have their own sets of drawbacks though... dynamic reload could be a good enough compromise IMO

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-13 Thread BGB
On 6/13/2011 8:39 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: At Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:16:10 -0400, C. Scott Ananian wrote: given that most non-Chinese can't read Chinese writing, despite that many of these characters do actually resemble crude line-art drawings of various things and ideas. It is a common

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-14 Thread BGB
On 6/13/2011 8:09 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 14/06/2011, at 7:33 AM, Casey Ransberger wrote: Kids may not have the linguistic development out of the way that one needs to do serious programming. Adults who don't already code may find themselves short on some of the core concepts that

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-14 Thread BGB
On 6/14/2011 12:14 PM, Michael FIG wrote: Hi, John Nilssonj...@milsson.nu writes: So my fix is to make the separation a hidden thing, which means the program needs to be represented in something that allows such hidden things (and I don't think Unicode control characters is the way to go

Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?

2011-06-14 Thread BGB
-by-reference, ...). or such... Sent from my phone Den 15 jun 2011 01:08 skrev BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com: On 6/14/2011 2:31 PM, John Nilsson wrote: On both questions the answer is basically that Java was an example. I was looking for a general solution. Something

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-15 Thread BGB
On 6/14/2011 9:50 PM, Dethe Elza wrote: On 2011-06-14, at 9:36 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: The thing that irritates me about this attitude of don't consider kids as equal is that we DO consider them as equal in other frames... we expect so much of them in terms of linguistic and cognitive

Re: [fonc] Consolidation and collaboration

2011-06-15 Thread BGB
On 6/15/2011 9:06 AM, Dethe Elza wrote: On 2011-06-15, at 8:55 AM, Ian Piumarta wrote: If a wiki is the kind of database you had in mind, please feel free to make use of: http://vpri.org/fonc_wiki Thanks for setting this up, Ian. When I go to Log in/ create account I don't see any way to

Re: [fonc] Consolidation and collaboration

2011-06-16 Thread BGB
On 6/15/2011 8:04 PM, BGB wrote: On 6/15/2011 3:22 PM, Ian Piumarta wrote: On Jun 15, 2011, at 14:09 , BGB wrote: http://vpri.org/fonc_wiki description sounds like it is specific to the FoNC / VPRI projects... Sorry about that. I left the original main page, figuring that people would just

Re: [fonc] Consolidation and collaboration

2011-06-16 Thread BGB
On 6/16/2011 8:43 AM, Frederick Grose wrote: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:34 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/15/2011 8:04 PM, BGB wrote: On 6/15/2011 3:22 PM, Ian Piumarta wrote: On Jun 15, 2011, at 14:09 , BGB wrote

Re: History's Forced-Perspective (was Re: [fonc] Consolidation and collaboration)

2011-06-17 Thread BGB
On 6/17/2011 11:37 AM, Casey Ransberger wrote: On Jun 15, 2011, at 8:55 AM, Ian Piumartapiuma...@speakeasy.net wrote: Invention receives no attention, and innovation (even when incorrectly understood) receives lip service in the press, but no current-day vehicle exists to to nurture it.

Re: [fonc] Consolidation and collaboration

2011-06-18 Thread BGB
On 6/16/2011 8:43 AM, Frederick Grose wrote: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:34 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/15/2011 8:04 PM, BGB wrote: On 6/15/2011 3:22 PM, Ian Piumarta wrote: On Jun 15, 2011, at 14:09 , BGB wrote

Re: [fonc] Consolidation and collaboration

2011-06-18 Thread BGB
On 6/18/2011 1:05 PM, Casey Ransberger wrote: I'm asking myself how relevant the projects I hack on are in this context. Others probably are too. Of the stuff that didn't disappear into the commercial void, recently it's been mostly Smalltalk for me, and FONC is not about Smalltalk; Smalltalk

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-19 Thread BGB
On 6/19/2011 7:20 PM, Steve Dekorte wrote: On 2011-06-14 Tue, at 09:36 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: The thing that irritates me about this attitude of don't consider kids as equal is that we DO consider them as equal in other frames... we expect so much of them in terms of linguistic and

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread BGB
On 6/19/2011 9:49 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 2:33 PM, BGB wrote: in a sense, the metaphor no longer works, and should likely itself be left to fall into the recycle-bin of history. worse yet is having to read stuff written by people who actually take this metaphor seriously

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread BGB
On 6/19/2011 11:54 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 4:33 PM, BGB wrote: interestingly, I don't believe in getting rid of the file-system, per-se, as technically it works fairly well and is a proven piece of technology. Interestingly, I disagree entirely. Finding things is a pain

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread BGB
On 6/19/2011 11:58 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 4:33 PM, BGB wrote: For example, when web programming on a specific web app, I use a web browser, a text editor, a database management program, a command line, and a couple other tools. It'd be nice to be able to fit these tools

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread BGB
On 6/20/2011 2:19 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 6:33 PM, BGB wrote: I am not certain I follow how this would get rid of file-systems though... I am not aware of any good alternative to the filesystem which is generally better than the filesystem (can effectively manage huge

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-20 Thread BGB
On 6/20/2011 3:22 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 8:06 PM, BGB wrote: hmm... S-Expression database?... sort of like a hybrid between a database and a persistent store. or such... I'd like to know if you think there's a difference between a filesystem and a database

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-21 Thread BGB
On 6/20/2011 9:19 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: Hi... (see below)... On 21/06/2011, at 3:42 AM, BGB wrote: On 6/20/2011 3:22 AM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 20/06/2011, at 8:06 PM, BGB wrote: hmm... S-Expression database?... sort of like a hybrid between a database and a persistent store

Re: Age and Language (was Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models?)

2011-06-22 Thread BGB
On 6/22/2011 5:08 PM, Steve Wart wrote: Still, databases and file systems are both based on concepts that predate electronic computers. When Windows and Macs came along the document metaphor became prevalent, but in practice this was always just a user friendly name for a file. The layers and

Re: [fonc] Richard Gabriel Guy Steele, 50 in 50 talk

2011-06-23 Thread BGB
On 6/22/2011 2:45 PM, Steve Dekorte wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nii1n8PYLrc Thoughts? interesting, but wasn't so fond of the music or graphics or skits... a bit much like something from the 70s... also, although mainstream languages aren't necessarily all that

Re: [fonc] Richard Gabriel Guy Steele, 50 in 50 talk

2011-06-25 Thread BGB
On 6/24/2011 9:07 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: On 24/06/2011, at 11:42 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: They gave that presentation more than once (I saw it a OOPSLA). Awesome :) Here's a version from JAOO'08, streams fine in Germany:

Re: [fonc] Richard Gabriel Guy Steele, 50 in 50 talk

2011-06-25 Thread BGB
On 6/25/2011 3:27 AM, Bob Arning wrote: I concur. It was mildly entertaining at points, but mostly I kept hoping they would speed up the pace while slowing down the camera switching. Since some smart people recommended it, I kept plugging away. I got a bit over half way before bailing. I

[fonc] misc: x86 and ARM

2011-07-09 Thread BGB
well, here is my thing: I mostly develop on x86 (and x86-64), and so most of my code is targeted to this target. recently, I figured I would try to port some of my stuff to ARM, mostly as a matter of personal experience and seeing if I could. I started with my assembler here (it is a major

Re: [fonc] misc: x86 and ARM

2011-07-09 Thread BGB
On 7/9/2011 5:07 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: BGB, or, maybe all my x86 experience blinds me some to the elegance of ARM's ISA?... whatever is so great about it, well, I am not seeing it at this level. why then do so many people seem to complain that the x86 ISA is so horrible?... I think

Re: [fonc] Last programming language

2011-07-17 Thread BGB
On 7/17/2011 2:33 PM, Craig Latta wrote: That talk would have been a whole lot better if he had grounded it with a discussion of how constraints are good for creativity. It's how he should have spent the time where he went on about memorizing Pi for no good reason... if memorizing pie is

Re: [fonc] Last programming language

2011-07-17 Thread BGB
On 7/17/2011 2:46 PM, David Leibs wrote: I couldn't handle his condescending attitude towards goto statements. I might not use them very often but when you need one there is nothing better. generally agreed... it is not for no reason that languages like C# still have them, despite being

Re: [fonc] Last programming language

2011-07-17 Thread BGB
On 7/17/2011 3:39 PM, Derek Kulinski wrote: Hello BGB, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 2:51:40 PM, you wrote: for example, if/while/for/... don't mean goto shouldn't exist in a language or should be branded as evil as a result, rather they provide better alternatives such that things like goto

Re: [fonc] Last programming language

2011-07-17 Thread BGB
On 7/17/2011 5:18 PM, Karl Robillard wrote: Heh... that talk didn't recieve a very warm welcome over at Lambda the Ultimate either. My favorite comment was the idea that AI could advance to the point where the final programming language may end up being English. I guess that means programmers

Re: [fonc] Last programming language

2011-07-19 Thread BGB
On 7/19/2011 8:24 AM, Ondřej Bílka wrote: On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 05:16:24AM -0700, Casey Ransberger wrote: Even if it were possible to have a last language, it would be double plus ungood. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Paul Homer[1]paul_ho...@yahoo.ca wrote: Realistically,

Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about Next steps for qualitatively improving programming at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-23 Thread BGB
On 7/22/2011 6:41 PM, Casey Ransberger wrote: I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of translation tool that's advertised to be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the Real client. yeah... even on

Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about Next steps for qualitatively improving programming at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-23 Thread BGB
On 7/23/2011 2:10 PM, Casey Ransberger wrote: Drat. Tried to convert this, but I just get a dialog that says convert only works from a local file. I don't see an option to pull the actual video file down, and IIRC .ram files are like trackers that point at a stream rather than being the actual

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-25 Thread BGB
On 7/25/2011 12:59 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com mailto:siguc...@gmail.com wrote: how different our systems would be, if guys who started it 20 years back would think a bit about future? The guys who spend their time

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-26 Thread BGB
On 7/25/2011 4:28 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:20 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: too bad there is no standardized bytecode or anything though, but then I guess it would at this point be more like browser-integrated Flash or something

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-26 Thread BGB
On 7/26/2011 5:34 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: On 26 July 2011 05:21, Alan Kayalan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Again good points. Java itself could have been fixed if it were not for the Sun marketing people who rushed the electronic toaster language out where it was not fit to go. Sun was filled with

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-26 Thread BGB
On 7/26/2011 6:43 AM, John Nilsson wrote: On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:16 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: the main merit of a bytecode format is that it could shorten the path in getting to native code, potentially allowing it to be faster. It seems to me

Re: [fonc] Alan Kay talk at HPI in Potsdam

2011-07-26 Thread BGB
On 7/26/2011 9:05 AM, David Barbour wrote: On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:50 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: whether or not compiling to bytecode is itself an actually effective security measure, it is the commonly expected security measure. Is it? I've

Re: [fonc] Why Bytecode is a Bad Idea for Distribution

2011-07-27 Thread BGB
On 7/26/2011 8:34 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:28 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: why do we need an HLL distribution language, rather than, say, a low-level distribution language, such as bytecode or a VM-level ASM-like format

Re: [fonc] Why Bytecode is a Bad Idea for Distribution

2011-07-27 Thread BGB
On 7/27/2011 2:12 AM, David Barbour wrote: On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:14 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: one can support ifdef blocks in the IL, no real problem there. Those seem like a problem all by themselves. Definitions are inflexible, lacking in domain

Re: [fonc] Server side JS and evolution

2011-07-27 Thread BGB
On 7/27/2011 6:37 AM, David Goehrig wrote: On Jul 26, 2011, at 8:45 PM, Casey Ransberger casey.obrie...@gmail.com mailto:casey.obrie...@gmail.com wrote: Worth pointing out that server side JS dodges this problem. Now that Node is out there, people are actually starting to do stuff with

Re: [fonc] Why Bytecode is a Bad Idea for Distribution

2011-07-27 Thread BGB
On 7/27/2011 9:35 AM, David Barbour wrote: On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:41 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: a non-turing-complete IL is too limited to do much of anything useful with WRT developing actual software... You aren't alone in holding this uninformed

Re: [fonc] Server side JS and evolution

2011-07-27 Thread BGB
On 7/27/2011 1:52 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:40 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: I think fitness and merit are some often misunderstood ideas. People understand just fine that a solution of technical merit can fail due to market forces

Re: [fonc] HotDraw's Tool State Machine Editor

2011-07-28 Thread BGB
On 7/28/2011 9:57 AM, Alan Kay wrote: Well, we don't absolutely *need* music notation, but it really helps many things. We don't *need* the various notations of mathematics (check out Newton's use of English for complex mathematical relationships in the Principia), but it really helps things.

Re: [fonc] Simple, Simplistic, and Scale

2011-07-29 Thread BGB
On 7/28/2011 8:19 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:16 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: striving for simplicity can also help, but even simplicity can have costs: sometimes, simplicity in one place may lead to much higher complexity

Re: [fonc] Simple, Simplistic, and Scale

2011-07-29 Thread BGB
On 7/29/2011 1:05 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:12 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: snip... nothing interesting to comment/add... Snow Crash: dot pattern from space - brain-damage Ah, yes, that wasn't the bit I wanted to create from

Re: [fonc] Simple, Simplistic, and Scale

2011-07-30 Thread BGB
On 7/29/2011 7:06 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 5:08 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: Linden Labs tried to do similar with Second Life, but it hasn't really caught on very well in-general. however, most prior attempts: VRML, Adobe

Re: [fonc] Physics and Types

2011-08-01 Thread BGB
On 8/1/2011 3:24 PM, Simon Forman wrote: On 7/27/11, Chris Warburtonchriswa...@googlemail.com wrote: snip (maybe relevant but no really to comment). Another reason I would argue against something like types based on Physics is that Physics tries to work out the inconceivable ways that the

Re: [fonc] Physics and Types

2011-08-03 Thread BGB
On 8/3/2011 7:32 AM, Chris Warburton wrote: On Tuesday 02 August 2011 00:43:57 BGB wrote: On 8/1/2011 3:24 PM, Simon Forman wrote: On 7/27/11, Chris Warburtonchriswa...@googlemail.com wrote: snip (maybe relevant but no really to comment). Another reason I would argue against something

Thread Clarification (Re: [fonc] Physics and Types)

2011-08-03 Thread BGB
sorry, just trying to clarify a few points... On 8/3/2011 9:57 AM, BGB wrote: in my own language, there is the async modifier which can (theoretically) be used for a lot of this: async function foo(x, y) { ... } where calls to foo implicitly create their own thread. async bar(x, 3); would

Re: Thread Clarification (Re: [fonc] Physics and Types)

2011-08-03 Thread BGB
On 8/3/2011 1:04 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: On 3 August 2011 21:04, BGBcr88...@gmail.com wrote: sorry, just trying to clarify a few points... ... sadly, the async modifier was used in the first incarnation of BGBScript (2004-2006), but was never fully reimplemented when the language was

Re: Thread Clarification (Re: [fonc] Physics and Types)

2011-08-04 Thread BGB
On 8/4/2011 1:06 AM, David Barbour wrote: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:10 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: The new thread should inherit the entire dynamic scope - logically, a local copy thereof. If there are object references mixed

Re: Thread Clarification (Re: [fonc] Physics and Types)

2011-08-04 Thread BGB
On 8/4/2011 7:55 AM, David Barbour wrote: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:53 AM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: if the parent thread sees its thread-local variable change when a child-thread assigns to it, this is a problem. it is a natural result though

Re: Thread Clarification (Re: [fonc] Physics and Types)

2011-08-04 Thread BGB
On 8/4/2011 1:35 PM, David Barbour wrote: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:43 PM, BGB cr88...@gmail.com mailto:cr88...@gmail.com wrote: it is a straightforward interpretation of scope: both lexical and dynamic scope cross code boundaries with no effects on their behavior. this makes

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