Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 06/21/2011 12:25 AM, MZMcBride wrote: Thanks for the detailed response. :-) Milos Rancic wrote: As usual, discussion would be held on Meta. If there are serious arguments against creation of Simple French Wikipedia, we would consider them, of course. However, arguments like I don't like simple projects won't be counted. Well, I'm sure some of them would say that in French; would that help? ;-) I do wonder if arguments such as Wikimedia should not be in the business of making simplified language-versions of projects would be counted. There is one more thing in which I agree with Michael... As he is in the group which creates BCP 47 language subtags, I told to him that we should get generic subtags for simple languages. His response was that we should think about it when the time comes, not before. I think that we will wait for some time, maybe even long, before we get a valid request for Simple French Wikipedia. When that time comes, we'll think about details. I mean, there are other things to be done and we've already spent a lot of time in it. The only reason why we've done so is to normalize the situation. I started with the position we should recommend to the Board to close all simple projects during the Berlin meeting. However, normalization went into other direction and I am fine with it, too. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
After a month of on-list talk -- sometimes very heated, sometimes very quiet -- Language committee has agreed about the next wording of the part of the new policy [1] related to the simple languages: * Can there be wikis in simple languages? *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and [[w:fr:Français fondamental|Français fondamental]]. (In reality it does not appear that there ''are'' many controlled languages other then English and French.) In practice, it means that: * It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved. If there are reliable and published specifications of other world languages (Russian, Spanish, Arabic etc.), group interested in creating project in simple language has to present it to the LangCom. * It is likely that border cases would be discussed in Language committee on case-by-case basis. For example, German is not a world language, but at least discussion would be opened if strong arguments would be given, including widely accepted definition of simple language. * It is not a matter of LangCom would any Wikipedia (or any other Wikimedia project) host project in corresponding simple language inside of a separate namespace -- with or without specification. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 6/20/2011 10:29 AM, Milos Rancic wrote: After a month of on-list talk -- sometimes very heated, sometimes very quiet -- Language committee has agreed about the next wording of the part of the new policy [1] related to the simple languages: * Can there be wikis in simple languages? *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and [[w:fr:Français fondamental|Français fondamental]]. (In reality it does not appear that there ''are'' many controlled languages other then English and French.) In practice, it means that: * It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved. If there are reliable and published specifications of other world languages (Russian, Spanish, Arabic etc.), group interested in creating project in simple language has to present it to the LangCom. * It is likely that border cases would be discussed in Language committee on case-by-case basis. For example, German is not a world language, but at least discussion would be opened if strong arguments would be given, including widely accepted definition of simple language. * It is not a matter of LangCom would any Wikipedia (or any other Wikimedia project) host project in corresponding simple language inside of a separate namespace -- with or without specification. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l This is great news! I was just involved on IRC talking about Simple projects and how they would be regulated. Thank you for informing us! -- Joe Gazz84 - Wikimedia Wikis Home Wiki: ENWP (Retired) Meta Commons For information on the wikimedia.technology-hub.com email domain, email i...@wikimedia.technology-hub.com If you need to contact me, please use reply and make sure the email goes to foundatio...@wikimedia.technology-hub.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 06/20/2011 04:29 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: After a month of on-list talk -- sometimes very heated, sometimes very quiet -- Language committee has agreed about the next wording of the part of the new policy [1] related to the simple languages: * Can there be wikis in simple languages? *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and [[w:fr:Français fondamental|Français fondamental]]. (In reality it does not appear that there ''are'' many controlled languages other then English and French.) In practice, it means that: * It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved. If there are reliable and published specifications of other world languages (Russian, Spanish, Arabic etc.), group interested in creating project in simple language has to present it to the LangCom. * It is likely that border cases would be discussed in Language committee on case-by-case basis. For example, German is not a world language, but at least discussion would be opened if strong arguments would be given, including widely accepted definition of simple language. * It is not a matter of LangCom would any Wikipedia (or any other Wikimedia project) host project in corresponding simple language inside of a separate namespace -- with or without specification. I forgot to give the only link: [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy/New_policy ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
Milos Rancic wrote: After a month of on-list talk -- sometimes very heated, sometimes very quiet -- Language committee has agreed about the next wording of the part of the new policy [1] related to the simple languages: * Can there be wikis in simple languages? *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and [[w:fr:Français fondamental|Français fondamental]]. (In reality it does not appear that there ''are'' many controlled languages other then English and French.) I thought nearly everyone, except a few people who edit the Simple projects, agreed that their creation was a horrible mistake and that they only continue to exist as a byproduct of history. Half of the Simple English projects (Wikibooks and Wikiquote) have been closed (Simple English Wikiquote was a legendary horror); only Simple English Wikipedia and Simple English Wiktionary remain. Given this, it seems rather out of left field for the Language Committee to try to suddenly declare that it's acceptable to have new simple forms. Has anything changed outside of the Committee that triggered this? In practice, it means that: * It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved. If there are reliable and published specifications of other world languages (Russian, Spanish, Arabic etc.), group interested in creating project in simple language has to present it to the LangCom. This has come up a few times before and as I recall, the French in particular considered a simple version of their language to be an abomination. What's the process for a new language project? Would current French Wikipedia contributors have an opportunity to object to a new simple French Wikipedia or a new simple French Wiktionary? MZMcBride ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 06/20/2011 07:25 PM, MZMcBride wrote: Milos Rancic wrote: After a month of on-list talk -- sometimes very heated, sometimes very quiet -- Language committee has agreed about the next wording of the part of the new policy [1] related to the simple languages: * Can there be wikis in simple languages? *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and [[w:fr:Français fondamental|Français fondamental]]. (In reality it does not appear that there ''are'' many controlled languages other then English and French.) I thought nearly everyone, except a few people who edit the Simple projects, agreed that their creation was a horrible mistake and that they only continue to exist as a byproduct of history. Half of the Simple English projects (Wikibooks and Wikiquote) have been closed (Simple English Wikiquote was a legendary horror); only Simple English Wikipedia and Simple English Wiktionary remain. Given this, it seems rather out of left field for the Language Committee to try to suddenly declare that it's acceptable to have new simple forms. Has anything changed outside of the Committee that triggered this? The change has happened, actually, inside of the committee. As you could see as a LangCom observer, the dominant emotion toward projects in simple languages is antagonistic among LangCom members. My personal position is not the exception. However, during the meeting in Berlin two members of LangCom, Michael and Anthony, both of them linguists, have convinced other of us that there *is* scientific basis of Simple English. Speaking for myself, if there is a scientific basis, I have no problem to allow such project. (Of course, if other requirements would be fulfilled.) The logical line of my thoughts was to allow *any* project in simple (or equivalent) language if there is a scientific basis. Mostly because there could be created valid communities around non-world-languages with large number of speakers (German and Japanese are examples). However, dominant position of the rest of the committee is that it should be allowed just for world languages. So, it's the agreed LangCom's position toward the new policy. In practice, it means that: * It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved. If there are reliable and published specifications of other world languages (Russian, Spanish, Arabic etc.), group interested in creating project in simple language has to present it to the LangCom. This has come up a few times before and as I recall, the French in particular considered a simple version of their language to be an abomination. What's the process for a new language project? Would current French Wikipedia contributors have an opportunity to object to a new simple French Wikipedia or a new simple French Wiktionary? First of all, as it is not about usual request, proposers for Simple French Wikipedia, which is the only one with good chances to pass, would have to convince us that their intention is genuine and that they are not trolls who want to create a fork of French Wikipedia. As usual, discussion would be held on Meta. If there are serious arguments against creation of Simple French Wikipedia, we would consider them, of course. However, arguments like I don't like simple projects won't be counted. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 06/20/2011 08:23 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: The logical line of my thoughts was to allow *any* project in simple (or equivalent) language if there is a scientific basis. Mostly because there could be created valid communities around non-world-languages with large number of speakers (German and Japanese are examples). Just to add one personal note: Four requests [1][2][3][4] for Simple German Wikipedia have influence on my position. As I said on LangCom list, I am personally opposed to the projects in simple languages, as, out of English one, their purpose tend to be censored family friendly projects. Including the request for the request in Simple German. However, if there is a valid community which aims to create educational project -- encyclopedia, to be precise --, I don't think that we have right to forbid them that. [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_2 [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3 [4] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_4 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
The last request was a 2 line proposal added by an anon ip[1] in passing, their only edit. I wouldn't call that a community. Theo [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages%2FWikipedia_Simple_German_4action=historysubmitdiff=2519024oldid=2087184 On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On 06/20/2011 08:23 PM, Milos Rancic wrote: The logical line of my thoughts was to allow *any* project in simple (or equivalent) language if there is a scientific basis. Mostly because there could be created valid communities around non-world-languages with large number of speakers (German and Japanese are examples). Just to add one personal note: Four requests [1][2][3][4] for Simple German Wikipedia have influence on my position. As I said on LangCom list, I am personally opposed to the projects in simple languages, as, out of English one, their purpose tend to be censored family friendly projects. Including the request for the request in Simple German. However, if there is a valid community which aims to create educational project -- encyclopedia, to be precise --, I don't think that we have right to forbid them that. [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_2 [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_3 [4] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Simple_German_4 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 06/20/2011 08:30 PM, Theo10011 wrote: The last request was a 2 line proposal added by an anon ip[1] in passing, their only edit. I wouldn't call that a community. However, the first three were valid ones. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
WIk On 20 June 2011 15:29, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and I have been around the Wikimedia projects since 2004. This is the very first time I have ever heard any official subset of English mentioned in any connection with the Simple English Wikipedia. Did I just miss past documentation to this effect? Was this part of its founding? When was Basic English first linked with Simple? - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
Hello Milos, Thank you for the elaboration. Indeed I am afraid that the concept is a little too narrow. A language like Dutch is not really a world language, but it as a lot of speakers with Dutch as a foreign or second language. Also, as far as I know Simple English Wikipedia mentions Basic English but does not base itself explicitly and willingly on it. The step of the committee looks to me as if only the concept of (elligible) artificial languages has been extended to the group of basic languages. You could add Weltdeutsch to your list of examples. Maybe the case needs more consideration. I ackknowledge that it is a difficult thing and that we don't want every language version to exist in a second version. Kind regards Ziko 2011/6/20 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com: After a month of on-list talk -- sometimes very heated, sometimes very quiet -- Language committee has agreed about the next wording of the part of the new policy [1] related to the simple languages: * Can there be wikis in simple languages? *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and [[w:fr:Français fondamental|Français fondamental]]. (In reality it does not appear that there ''are'' many controlled languages other then English and French.) In practice, it means that: * It is likely that just Wikipedia in simple French would be approved. If there are reliable and published specifications of other world languages (Russian, Spanish, Arabic etc.), group interested in creating project in simple language has to present it to the LangCom. * It is likely that border cases would be discussed in Language committee on case-by-case basis. For example, German is not a world language, but at least discussion would be opened if strong arguments would be given, including widely accepted definition of simple language. * It is not a matter of LangCom would any Wikipedia (or any other Wikimedia project) host project in corresponding simple language inside of a separate namespace -- with or without specification. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/ ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
On 06/20/2011 08:55 PM, David Gerard wrote: On 20 June 2011 15:29, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: *: Yes, in principle. But two special criteria would need to be met: the language should be a world language with many L2 users, and there must be a reliable, published specification of the controlled language to be used. Examples are [[w:en:Basic English|Basic English]] and I have been around the Wikimedia projects since 2004. This is the very first time I have ever heard any official subset of English mentioned in any connection with the Simple English Wikipedia. Did I just miss past documentation to this effect? Was this part of its founding? When was Basic English first linked with Simple? I have to admit the same. I would ask Michael to elaborate this. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Projects in simple languages
Thanks for the detailed response. :-) Milos Rancic wrote: As usual, discussion would be held on Meta. If there are serious arguments against creation of Simple French Wikipedia, we would consider them, of course. However, arguments like I don't like simple projects won't be counted. Well, I'm sure some of them would say that in French; would that help? ;-) I do wonder if arguments such as Wikimedia should not be in the business of making simplified language-versions of projects would be counted. MZMcBride ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
