Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica

2009-06-10 Thread Nikola Smolenski
Дана Wednesday 10 June 2009 16:36:38 Florence Devouard написа:
 But frankly, I am super pleased to find out that one of the pict I
 uploaded 4 years ago are now featured in Britannica :-)

And they made a honest effort to be GFDL-compliant. I wonder how many more 
such images are there.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica

2009-06-10 Thread Sage Ross
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Nikola Smolenskismole...@eunet.yu wrote:
 Дана Wednesday 10 June 2009 16:36:38 Florence Devouard написа:
 But frankly, I am super pleased to find out that one of the pict I
 uploaded 4 years ago are now featured in Britannica :-)

 And they made a honest effort to be GFDL-compliant. I wonder how many more
 such images are there.


They've been doing this since sometime last year.  I first noticed it
in September:
http://ragesossscholar.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-are-your-wikimedia-commons-photos.html
(at the bottom of the post is where Britannica comes up)

I think I did a rough estimate a few months ago that Britannica had
added somewhere in the thousands to ten-thousands range of images
taken from Wikipedia or Commons (including both GFDL and CC).  But
they don't provide a link back to the sources and/or userpages, so I
feel like they could do a better job of respecting the license terms.
When an image is a attributed to a hyperlinked name (as most Commons
images are), that would imply that the hyperlink ought to be part of
the attribution when it's used on the web.  Maybe the Foundation
should contact them about this.

-Sage (User:Ragesoss)

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-27 Thread Mathias Schindler
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:
 Do we know people at Arvato?  SJ

Yes (more precisely: at Wissen Media and at InmediaOne] )

Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-27 Thread Samuel Klein
That's great.  It might be valuable to share notes on collaborations
between old-school encyclopedic media groups and Wikipedians in
various countries.  I see a few classes of collabs possible

* between traditional editing teams and Wikipedians.  These teams,
including those being laid off by brockhaus, have tremendous
history/experience/tradecraft in how to organize workflows, track
sources, follow updates year by year to a topic, and find new experts
to provide overviews and novel writing.  Generally these experts are
not paid much - IME that is not the core expense of maintaining even
traditional encyclos.  Work together to find ways to help WP benefit
from these practices -- and find a new way for lifelong encyclopedists
to continue contributing to world knowledge even as their jobs change

* between chief editors and Wikipedian masses. Reassess the merit of
the value of an encyclopedia is what it leaves out, not what it puts
in.  what does that mean now for multimedia encyclos with multi-DVD
sets?  What did it ever mean for mega-encyclos?  How can we provide
high-quality top-level overviews while continuing to expand the
quantity  quality of detail?  How to coordinate what are effectively
focused subject-specific encyclos and WP as a whole?  how important
are the value judgements being made by each group producing a limited
edition for DVD / iPod / OLPC / print?  what audiences don't find
their needs met yet?

* between content archivists and Wikimedia : freeing archives for
public use.  There are a few degrees to this : access/reuse of
indexes, access/reuse of summaries//data templates//thumbnails,
access/reuse of full text  multimedia.  This works in two ways -- WM
can be a world leader in providing accurate and high-visibility
attribution of its sources [something the projects currently are poor
at - contribute text or media to WM and you get an almost negligible
mention].

SJ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Mathias Schindler
mathias.schind...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:
 Do we know people at Arvato?  SJ

 Yes (more precisely: at Wissen Media and at InmediaOne] )

 Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-26 Thread Samuel Klein
Do we know people at Arvato?  SJ

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Mathias Schindler
mathias.schind...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:21 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 Eek! What's happening to the content?


 There are/were several ways to access the content of the actual core
 Brockhaus encyclopedia:

 1. Buy the book. 30 volumes, 2700€ - 3100€, depending on your payment
 plan: http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/aufeinenblick/bestellen.php

 2. Buy the USB stick edition: 1500 €. no longer being sold.

 3. Pay per view via munzinger.de
 http://munzinger.de/search/query?f=queryqid=query-12

 4. online subscription to brockhaus-enzyklopaedie.de. There was never
 an end user license for this web site. end users had to buy 1. or 2.
 (see above) to get access to this site until 31/12/2010.

 5. Get the content (or a very similar kind encyclopedia) from
 http://lexikon.meyers.de, which is the second encyclopedia brand name
 at BIFAB AG. BIFAB has announced to shut down all encyclopedia related
 activities and has said that the content at lexikon.meyers.de is
 largely taken from Brockhaus substance so that they are unable to
 continue this service. Hence we have to assume that lexikon.meyers.de
 is going to be shut down in the next 39 days.

 From an online perspective, it is unlikely to get any worse. The
 poorly visible Brockhaus encyclopedia text might re-appear under
 different brand names in other places. Or other content might appear
 under a Brockhaus brand. All questions to save or use or release the
 content from the Brockhaus encyclopedia would have to be directed to
 Arvato/Wissen media group.

 Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-23 Thread Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
David Gerard wrote:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
   
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org 
 wrote:
 

   
 The following Firefox bookmarklet may be useful:
 javascript:(function(){Darwin.Upsell.deactivate();})()
   

   
 Thanks! It works well :)
 


 They called the function upsell? *facepalm* Wikipedia doesn't need
 to do anything to compete with Britannica, just leave them to collapse
 under the weight of their own ineptitude.

 We should probably run a large public Save Britannica! campaign -
 how to save a great historical encyclopedia, second only to the OED as
 one of the great works of Anglophone non-fiction, from its own
 business stupidity. I'm halfway serious. What could we do with a Save
 Britannica campaign?

 (There are many ways in which it sucks, but it still manages
 *consistent* quality better than en:wp. Better writing, too. A lot of
 us wouldn't be doing this Wikipedia thing if we weren't encyclopedia
 fans in the first place, and that includes Britannica.)


 - d.

 

I don't think you can be more clear than:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/bparchive?year=2006post=2006-03-24,3


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen




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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-23 Thread David Gerard
2008/12/23 Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:06 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 Britannica is notoriously antagonistic toward Wikipedia in its
 advertising, but Brockhaus for instance isn't anywhere near as
 obnoxious (they're not *fans* of Wikipedia, but they have more class
 than to trash a perceived competitor the way Britannica try to). What
 other important language encyclopedias of comparable renown are there?

 Well. The BIFAB AG (Bibliographic Institute  F. A. Brockhaus inc.)
 has announced last week (happy x-mas) to sell the usage rights and
 brand name of Brockhaus to Bertelsmann (section Arvato, subsection
 inmedia one, business unit wissen media Group). The remaining staff of
 60 editors of Brockhaus at Leipzig was not bought and will receive
 pink slips.
 Brockhaus might be transformed into an imprint of various content
 for door-2-door sales people.


Eek! What's happening to the content?


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-23 Thread Mathias Schindler
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:21 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 Eek! What's happening to the content?


There are/were several ways to access the content of the actual core
Brockhaus encyclopedia:

1. Buy the book. 30 volumes, 2700€ - 3100€, depending on your payment
plan: http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/aufeinenblick/bestellen.php

2. Buy the USB stick edition: 1500 €. no longer being sold.

3. Pay per view via munzinger.de
http://munzinger.de/search/query?f=queryqid=query-12

4. online subscription to brockhaus-enzyklopaedie.de. There was never
an end user license for this web site. end users had to buy 1. or 2.
(see above) to get access to this site until 31/12/2010.

5. Get the content (or a very similar kind encyclopedia) from
http://lexikon.meyers.de, which is the second encyclopedia brand name
at BIFAB AG. BIFAB has announced to shut down all encyclopedia related
activities and has said that the content at lexikon.meyers.de is
largely taken from Brockhaus substance so that they are unable to
continue this service. Hence we have to assume that lexikon.meyers.de
is going to be shut down in the next 39 days.

From an online perspective, it is unlikely to get any worse. The
poorly visible Brockhaus encyclopedia text might re-appear under
different brand names in other places. Or other content might appear
under a Brockhaus brand. All questions to save or use or release the
content from the Brockhaus encyclopedia would have to be directed to
Arvato/Wissen media group.

Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2008/12/22 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@gmail.com:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
 And Britannica has this totally weird feature - the article loads
 itself as soon as the scrollbar progresses through it. So even if it
 is free as in beer, it is obnoxiously inconvenient to copy text from
 it, 'cuz Ctrl-A doesn't work as expected.

... And of course, i forgot to mention that it is not free in the
Stallman-Lessig sense, so copying text from is not only inconvenient,
but possibly illegal.

-- 
Amir Elisha Aharoni

heb: http://haharoni.wordpress.com | eng: http://aharoni.wordpress.com
cat: http://aprenent.wordpress.com | rus: http://amire80.livejournal.com

We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace. - T. Moore

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2008/12/22 teun spaans teun.spa...@gmail.com:
 but possibly illegal you can omit the word possibly. I dont see a copy
 left license at their site.

It may be possible to copy from EB under fair use terms. On Wikipedia
i don't even need to think about that (except some images...).

-- 
Amir Elisha Aharoni

heb: http://haharoni.wordpress.com | eng: http://aharoni.wordpress.com
cat: http://aprenent.wordpress.com | rus: http://amire80.livejournal.com

We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace. - T. Moore

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Nikola Smolenski
teun spaans wrote:
 but possibly illegal you can omit the word possibly. I dont see a copy
 left license at their site.

You can copy it for your personal use :°♫

 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Amir E. Aharoni 
 amir.ahar...@gmail.comwrote:
 2008/12/22 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@gmail.com:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
 And Britannica has this totally weird feature - the article loads
 itself as soon as the scrollbar progresses through it. So even if it
 is free as in beer, it is obnoxiously inconvenient to copy text from
 it, 'cuz Ctrl-A doesn't work as expected.
 ... And of course, i forgot to mention that it is not free in the
 Stallman-Lessig sense, so copying text from is not only inconvenient,
 but possibly illegal.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 The following Firefox bookmarklet may be useful:

 javascript:(function(){Darwin.Upsell.deactivate();})()

 Put it in a bookmark in your toolbar and click it to get rid of the
 annoying box. It doesn't come back until you go to another page.

Thanks! It works well :)

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@gmail.com wrote:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
 If I understood well, the content of the online edition of Britannica
 became free (as in free beer, of course). They are putting some
 irritating screen with recommendation to buy access to their edition
 every 10 seconds (or so), but, in fact, it is possible to copy-paste
 the content somewhere else and read it. Hm. Wikipedia doesn't have
 that irritating screen. (OK, banner is irritating, but it is not of
 that kind ;) )

 One thing that is totally awesome about Wikipedia is the categories.
 Britannica is nowhere near Wikipedia in categorization and searching.
 I've seen people criticizing Wikipedia's categorization; what they
 don't realize is that no other encyclopedia comes near.

 And Britannica has this totally weird feature - the article loads
 itself as soon as the scrollbar progresses through it. So even if it
 is free as in beer, it is obnoxiously inconvenient to copy text from
 it, 'cuz Ctrl-A doesn't work as expected.

 And i saw articles in the current online Britannica that are much
 shorter than their counterparts in the PD 1911 edition. (E.g.
 [[Wilhelm Gesenius]].)

 And the article on Occitan language in Britannica contradicts itself
 and has no {{Contradict}} on top. It drives me nuts that i can't fix
 it. Wikipedia's [[Occitan language]] may have {{POV}} on its top from
 time to time, but at least we admit it and welcome corrections.

 So Britannica is written by experts and is free as in beer. So what.

Wikipedia's most important advantage is that it is free as in free
speech. I would prefer much smaller Wikipedia, as I am preferring to
use free software alternatives for a long time, even alternatives were
worst than proprietary software counterparts.

But, we need a basic level of honesty. Not just because some ordinary
reader of encyclopedic content, but, first of all, because of
ourselves. I am preparing now exam in comparative grammar of
Indo-European languages and here is the situation related to the
description of the first attested Indo-European branch, Anatolian
group:

* 14 volumes Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics has just a small
description of Anatolian languages; it doesn't have anything about
Hittite language (the major language from that group).
* Wikipedia has very inconsistent set of articles about all languages.
To be honest, I don't know where to start with fixing them.
* Britannica has a very good article about Anatolian languages and
good introducing articles about all Anatolian languages.
* Cambridge edition Ancient languages of Asia Minor (ALAM) has very
good articles about all of them. Even it is a book, the concept is
close to a very specific (and good) encyclopedia of those languages.

The styles of articles in Britannica and especially ALAM are superior
toward the style in (those) Wikipedia articles. Articles in Britannica
and ALAM are very useful to me, while articles in Wikipedia are far
from being useful.

Of course, we may fix our articles. Britannica has an error in
description of Serbian/Serbo-Croatian language at least since 1995
edition: instead of Serbian letter Ђ, it has letter Ъ (hard sign).
But, we need to find a way how to improve the quality of our articles,
systematically.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread geni
2008/12/22 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
 They called the function upsell? *facepalm* Wikipedia doesn't need
 to do anything to compete with Britannica, just leave them to collapse
 under the weight of their own ineptitude.

 We should probably run a large public Save Britannica! campaign -
 how to save a great historical encyclopedia, second only to the OED as
 one of the great works of Anglophone non-fiction, from its own
 business stupidity. I'm halfway serious. What could we do with a Save
 Britannica campaign?

Very little. We can't afford to buy it. Britannica's survival in some
form is not a concern. The brand and the content are worth enough that
if it's current owners give up there will always be someone looking to
buy. If it were sold tomorrow likely candidates would be Microsoft
(who wanted it for encarta and would probably still go for it if the
price was low enough), Google who might try using it to populate knol,
Yahoo to annoy google. It fits answers.com's profile if they survive
that long.

Then there are various media companies that might think about it. News
Corp for example.


-- 
geni

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread David Goodman
Upsell is the name of the leading market research company in
publishing--probably they are the ones who designed it. I'm suprised,
for they are generally known as competent.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:17 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org 
 wrote:

 The following Firefox bookmarklet may be useful:
 javascript:(function(){Darwin.Upsell.deactivate();})()

 Thanks! It works well :)


 They called the function upsell? *facepalm* Wikipedia doesn't need
 to do anything to compete with Britannica, just leave them to collapse
 under the weight of their own ineptitude.

 We should probably run a large public Save Britannica! campaign -
 how to save a great historical encyclopedia, second only to the OED as
 one of the great works of Anglophone non-fiction, from its own
 business stupidity. I'm halfway serious. What could we do with a Save
 Britannica campaign?

 (There are many ways in which it sucks, but it still manages
 *consistent* quality better than en:wp. Better writing, too. A lot of
 us wouldn't be doing this Wikipedia thing if we weren't encyclopedia
 fans in the first place, and that includes Britannica.)


 - d.

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-- 
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Milos Rancic
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:17 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org 
 wrote:

 The following Firefox bookmarklet may be useful:
 javascript:(function(){Darwin.Upsell.deactivate();})()

 Thanks! It works well :)


 They called the function upsell? *facepalm* Wikipedia doesn't need
 to do anything to compete with Britannica, just leave them to collapse
 under the weight of their own ineptitude.

 We should probably run a large public Save Britannica! campaign -
 how to save a great historical encyclopedia, second only to the OED as
 one of the great works of Anglophone non-fiction, from its own
 business stupidity. I'm halfway serious. What could we do with a Save
 Britannica campaign?

 (There are many ways in which it sucks, but it still manages
 *consistent* quality better than en:wp. Better writing, too. A lot of
 us wouldn't be doing this Wikipedia thing if we weren't encyclopedia
 fans in the first place, and that includes Britannica.)

One idea came into my mind nearly after I wrote the first email in
this thread. Britannica is a project which is in decline. So, why not
to buy it? Yes, I know that it is a lot of money *now*, but it may be
achievable in a couple of years (I saw now that Geni mentioned that we
can't buy it).

Then, I wanted to see what is the value of Britannica; without
success. It is a private company (in US sense of that meaning;
public companies in European sense are just companies owned by some
local or state government; and in some specific circumstances). It is
owned by Jacqui Safra, a billionaire [citation needed] [1], who may be
an interesting partner to WMF. So, if it is not possible to buy it, I
think that it is possible to make some deal to work together.

And I think that it shouldn't be just about Britannica. There are a
lot of high quality encyclopedias all over the world. WMF may think
about some kind of cooperation with them. It is not possible anymore
to have encyclopedia as a profitable company, so I think that the
institutions which own encyclopedias will be more open for
cooperation; including giving the content under the same license(s) as
under Wikipedia content is.

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqui_Safra

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread David Goodman
Sorry, wrong company name--I was thinking of another one --a truly
competent one, Outsell, that has undoubtedly nothing to do with this
nonsensical method of protection.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:20 PM, David Goodman dgoodma...@gmail.com wrote:
 Upsell is the name of the leading market research company in
 publishing--probably they are the ones who designed it. I'm suprised,
 for they are generally known as competent.

 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:17 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org 
 wrote:

 The following Firefox bookmarklet may be useful:
 javascript:(function(){Darwin.Upsell.deactivate();})()

 Thanks! It works well :)


 They called the function upsell? *facepalm* Wikipedia doesn't need
 to do anything to compete with Britannica, just leave them to collapse
 under the weight of their own ineptitude.

 We should probably run a large public Save Britannica! campaign -
 how to save a great historical encyclopedia, second only to the OED as
 one of the great works of Anglophone non-fiction, from its own
 business stupidity. I'm halfway serious. What could we do with a Save
 Britannica campaign?

 (There are many ways in which it sucks, but it still manages
 *consistent* quality better than en:wp. Better writing, too. A lot of
 us wouldn't be doing this Wikipedia thing if we weren't encyclopedia
 fans in the first place, and that includes Britannica.)


 - d.

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 --
 David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG




-- 
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread David Gerard
2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:

 Then, I wanted to see what is the value of Britannica; without
 success. It is a private company (in US sense of that meaning;
 public companies in European sense are just companies owned by some
 local or state government; and in some specific circumstances). It is
 owned by Jacqui Safra, a billionaire [citation needed] [1], who may be
 an interesting partner to WMF. So, if it is not possible to buy it, I
 think that it is possible to make some deal to work together.


I don't know. He appears to have bought it to keep it going, as a
valuable entity in itself.

So maybe what we need to do is talk to him about Wikipedia ;-D


 And I think that it shouldn't be just about Britannica. There are a
 lot of high quality encyclopedias all over the world. WMF may think
 about some kind of cooperation with them. It is not possible anymore
 to have encyclopedia as a profitable company, so I think that the
 institutions which own encyclopedias will be more open for
 cooperation; including giving the content under the same license(s) as
 under Wikipedia content is.


Britannica is notoriously antagonistic toward Wikipedia in its
advertising, but Brockhaus for instance isn't anywhere near as
obnoxious (they're not *fans* of Wikipedia, but they have more class
than to trash a perceived competitor the way Britannica try to). What
other important language encyclopedias of comparable renown are there?


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
2008/12/22 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com:

 Then, I wanted to see what is the value of Britannica; without
 success. It is a private company (in US sense of that meaning;
 public companies in European sense are just companies owned by some
 local or state government; and in some specific circumstances). It is
 owned by Jacqui Safra, a billionaire [citation needed] [1], who may be
 an interesting partner to WMF. So, if it is not possible to buy it, I
 think that it is possible to make some deal to work together.


 I don't know. He appears to have bought it to keep it going, as a
 valuable entity in itself.

 So maybe what we need to do is talk to him about Wikipedia ;-D


 And I think that it shouldn't be just about Britannica. There are a
 lot of high quality encyclopedias all over the world. WMF may think
 about some kind of cooperation with them. It is not possible anymore
 to have encyclopedia as a profitable company, so I think that the
 institutions which own encyclopedias will be more open for
 cooperation; including giving the content under the same license(s) as
 under Wikipedia content is.


 Britannica is notoriously antagonistic toward Wikipedia in its
 advertising, but Brockhaus for instance isn't anywhere near as
 obnoxious (they're not *fans* of Wikipedia, but they have more class
 than to trash a perceived competitor the way Britannica try to). What
 other important language encyclopedias of comparable renown are there?


Well in Poland we have PWN:

http://www.pwn.pl/

which actually is quite well in terms of profit it produces.  Among
them and us it is a kind of gentle elegancy. They talk about us in a
gentle manner, and we about them in the same way :-) In fact for us
PWN Polish language vocabulary and their encyclopedia is quite often
cited in Wikipedia as a source of serious knowlege. We even ask
their language help-desk to solve some our language/terminology
problems and we treat them as a kind of  language oracle and they
are happy to help us. So, we think our advantage is that we are faster
and we cover the things they are not interested in, but their
advantage is their high level of professional acuracy (at least with
language problems) so we can friendly coexist.

I don't like guys from Wikmedia projects speaking in some sort of
supremacy language. Our goal is to create: a world in which every
single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. so
if the Britannica or PWN or any other commercial provider of the
knowlegde is making their content free we should be simply happy. And
it is not very clever to say that it is just because they feel the
pressure from us (which in fact might be the true anyway :-) ). They
have many values and advatages which we should still learn from them.


-- 
Tomek Polimerek Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.ptchem.lodz.pl/en/TomaszGanicz.html

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread David Gerard
2008/12/22 Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com:

 I don't like guys from Wikmedia projects speaking in some sort of
 supremacy language. Our goal is to create: a world in which every
 single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. so
 if the Britannica or PWN or any other commercial provider of the
 knowlegde is making their content free we should be simply happy. And
 it is not very clever to say that it is just because they feel the
 pressure from us (which in fact might be the true anyway :-) ). They
 have many values and advatages which we should still learn from them.


Yes. As I said, just because Britannica is rude about Wikipedia is no
reason to be rude in return. It's good to see we're catching up in
many areas, but they remain the gold standard that en:wp works to in
many ways. The Wikipedia writing style is different - Britannica is
not NPOV, it's authoritative - but at our best we do very well
indeed. But at our worst we're still terrible. Lots of work for the
future! :-D

(A tangential note: I consider NPOV to be our most important
innovation - much more radical than merely letting anyone edit your
encyclopedia. The concept of neutrality has existed in various
guises, but not like Wikipedia does it, with the consequences it has
as a source of information for the world.)


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Gregory Maxwell
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 5:38 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
 (A tangential note: I consider NPOV to be our most important
 innovation - much more radical than merely letting anyone edit your
 encyclopedia. The concept of neutrality has existed in various
 guises, but not like Wikipedia does it, with the consequences it has
 as a source of information for the world.)

Full agreement.

My view on WP innovations:

(1) NPOV information resource.
(2) Website with a permanent historical record (we're not the first,
but the first popular).
(3) Large scale free-content useful reference.
(4) Website anyone can edit.


There are all sorts of interdependencies between these and other
differentiators— It's easy to argue that without (4) the rest wouldn't
be possible… but in terms of the lasting impact on society and our own
uniqueness I think those are ordered about right.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread David Gerard
2008/12/22 Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 5:38 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 (A tangential note: I consider NPOV to be our most important
 innovation - much more radical than merely letting anyone edit your
 encyclopedia. The concept of neutrality has existed in various
 guises, but not like Wikipedia does it, with the consequences it has
 as a source of information for the world.)

 Full agreement.
 My view on WP innovations:
 (1) NPOV information resource.


I'm thinking of things like areas that never got NPOV coverage *ever*.
Scientology is a good example - pro-Scientology sources are saccharine
and tend to leave out bits of great concern to the critics, and the
critical sources have lots of well-sourced information but are so
*bitter* they're all but unreadable. en:wp has some of the very best
information available on the topic.


 (2) Website with a permanent historical record (we're not the first,
 but the first popular).


What others are there?


 (3) Large scale free-content useful reference.


I'd put that below anyone can edit - (3) wasn't true until the last
two or three years. In 2004, when I started, en:wp was a
somewhat-useful source on computing topics, but very much one big stub
on most things. Now it's actually useful in all sorts of places.

(During the recent IWF/[[:en:Virgin Killer]] furore, our crappy work
proxy blocked *all* Wikipedia reading because of the block on the
page. And we felt the effects, because Wikipedia is such a good first
reference work on computing topics.)


 (4) Website anyone can edit.
 There are all sorts of interdependencies between these and other
 differentiators— It's easy to argue that without (4) the rest wouldn't
 be possible… but in terms of the lasting impact on society and our own
 uniqueness I think those are ordered about right.


- d.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Hay (Husky)
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 I checked a larger biography, and it looked complete to me. Note that it
 uses ajax to load article sections as you scroll to them, so you have to
 scroll up and down the page to trigger all the ajax loads before you can
 copy the text out.
It even works with Javascript turned off, but then you have to click
all the subheadings in the topic box to progress to the next piece of
text (which can be just a few lines long). The Javascript version is
not very user-friendly too, because you have to stare at the loading
animations before you can read the text.

-- Hay / Husky

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Aude
I noticed that Britannica is using some creative commons images from
Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons.

Example:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/589288/113374/Courthouse-in-Denton-Texas

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Courthouse_Denton_TX.jpg

-Aude
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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Delirium
David Gerard wrote:
 (A tangential note: I consider NPOV to be our most important
 innovation - much more radical than merely letting anyone edit your
 encyclopedia. The concept of neutrality has existed in various
 guises, but not like Wikipedia does it, with the consequences it has
 as a source of information for the world.)

I guess I don't really agree on this--- it's been the trend in reference 
works for decades to split tertiary reference material (neutral 
summaries of scholarly consensus, published as encyclopedias) from 
critical surveys and novel arguments (published in journals or as 
non-reference books). The trend was becoming dominant by at least the 
1970s I'd say; a good example of the modern encyclopedia in this style 
is the [[Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire]] (published 1971-1992) 
which explicitly aims for a neutral summary of scholarly consensus on 
each of its subjects, which scholars can all use as a reference point. 
(Where scholars disagree, it simply notes that fact, sometimes 
summarizing each side's argument.)

-Mark

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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread Tim Starling
David Goodman wrote:
 Upsell is the name of the leading market research company in
 publishing--probably they are the ones who designed it. I'm suprised,
 for they are generally known as competent.

No, that would be upsell as in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up-selling

I'd give you a Britannica reference for that as well, but they don't have it.

They call the box that pops up the upsell, as in

 activities: {hideUpsells: , hideAds: false, showDivType: },

It's also referred to as annoyware:

 Darwin.Upsell.init(_config.userDataConfig.annoywareConfig);

The company responsible would be:

 var mboxCopyright = Copyright 2004-2007 Offermatica (tm) Corporation;

a.k.a. http://www.omniture.com/

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-21 Thread Tim Starling
Milos Rancic wrote:
 If I understood well, the content of the online edition of Britannica
 became free (as in free beer, of course). They are putting some
 irritating screen with recommendation to buy access to their edition
 every 10 seconds (or so), but, in fact, it is possible to copy-paste
 the content somewhere else and read it. Hm. Wikipedia doesn't have
 that irritating screen. (OK, banner is irritating, but it is not of
 that kind ;) )
 
 Does anyone have some more informations about it? Also, may someone
 (who owns some newer edition of Britannica: paper or electronic)
 check, let's say, this link [1] and confirm that this is the complete
 article.
 
 [1] - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/268173/Hittite-language

I checked a larger biography, and it looked complete to me. Note that it
uses ajax to load article sections as you scroll to them, so you have to
scroll up and down the page to trigger all the ajax loads before you can
copy the text out.

The following Firefox bookmarklet may be useful:

javascript:(function(){Darwin.Upsell.deactivate();})()

Put it in a bookmark in your toolbar and click it to get rid of the
annoying box. It doesn't come back until you go to another page.

-- Tim Starling


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