Re: Open Letter to the IT community, the GNOME Foundation, and Niel McGovern
Back in around 2015, I removed GNOME from all my machines. I made that decision because I was disappointed with the way in which the project was headed, and I was not the only one. The main complaint was that the GNOME project does not listen to its users, and I, in my disappointment, came to believe that in this area you could not be any worse. However, your email, Luis Villa, proved me wrong. You proved to me that the GNOME project can indeed sink to even deeper lows: committing personal attacks against the man who started the GNU Project while hiding behind disgusting insults and misinterpretations. When I heard about this open letter, and its corresponding petition, I thought that asking Neil McGovern to step down is perhaps a bit too extreme, despite the fact that the letter clearly shows that his remarks were false and possibly deliberately so. By completely ignoring the letter, you have shown me that the GNOME project does not only refuse to listen to its users, but also refuses to listen to reason. I sincerely hope that the GNOME project changes from the ground up, so that it ceases to further alienate more and more people by making arbitrary decisions to the detriment of the users, and fighting personal battles in the name of the entire foundation. Regards, Alex On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 11:25:22AM -0700, Luis Villa wrote: > Neil's blog post, for those missing it: > https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relationship-gnu-fsf/ > > For my part, I want to apologize to everyone involved in GNOME for not > pushing GNOME to formally sever its ties with GNU a decade ago, which is the > first time in my email archives I can find formal complaints about Richard's > sexism. (His imperious 'I am the dictator of GNU, GNOME MUST OBEY ME' > behavior leaves a nearly 20 year-long trail across my inbox as well.) > Focusing on this particular offense is a mistake - there are two decades of > offensive, problematic communication and ineffective leadership, of which > this is only the latest. > > I'm glad Neil is taking that step now, am fully supportive, and very sorry > that it took so long. Software freedom is central to who we are, and > Richard's leadership of GNU has actively set back software freedom, both by > running GNU like an ineffective personal fiefdom and by repeatedly offending > many people who might have been fruitful contributors. > > I'm sad about this - there's an alternate history where GNOME is an active > part of a strong, healthy GNU project. But GNU is neither of those things > right now, and Richard is a huge part of it. It's long past time for us to > send a message about it. > > Neil, I wonder if there's space for coordination with other "peripheral" GNU > projects about this? It seems like individuals quitting their FSF membership > was important to the board's action there, and perhaps organizations doing > the same with GNU might be an effective way of sending the message there. > > Luis > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 8:10 AM Jake D. Parsons via foundation-list > > wrote: > > > > Greetings; > > > > I attached a text file with the text that gave me my basis for this > > accusation > > from Neil McGovern' s blog: Liberal Musings. > > > > I call for Neil McGovern to step down from his position as the > > Executive Director of the GNOME Foundation for the betterment of software > > freedom, basic civility in the community, ethics, and professionalism > > between the community and the world at large. > > > > It is one thing for someone to not have reading comprehension skills > > and it is a magnitude of another to personally jump on the bandwagon to > > defame, criminally libel, and outright lie, about what RMS said in the > > infamous letter. It is unethical and unprofessional for someone in an > > Executive position to do so. Let me be very clear: the words used and how > > they were used in this campaign against RMS are grounds for him to sue a > > lot of people if he so choosed to do so. His opponents lacking his ethical > > rigour know he won' t and mistake his virtue as a weakness and used > > criminal and low brow methods against him. Very sore losers since they > > obviously cannot argue him. > > > > First this is what Neil McGovern wrote: > > > > "This came after the president of the FSF made some pretty > > reprehensible remarks saying that the ???most plausible scenario is that > > [one of Epstein???s underage victims] presented themselves as entirely > > willing??? while being trafficked." > > > > This poor victim was already trafficked Neil McGovern (your actions > > were so despicable I refuse to call you with any civil salutation), Epstein > > was prostituting her. Two separate crimes but you apparently picked one to > > care about, the one that brings outrage and people stop analyzing what you > > are saying as a whole based on emotion. As anyone who has
Re: Open Letter to the IT community, the GNOME Foundation, and Niel McGovern
So, where else do I go to for the serious misconduct of a GNOME Foundation member? Considering the calls for subversion of organizations I respect from the GNOME community, which may or may not be represenative of the majority, why would I want to be a member, of what is proving to be, your corrupt organziation? It is not a rant. It was a letter. Since GNOME is a public organization of a public source I' am asserting my right to question and converse with it through a public medium for a public record. On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 8:00:01 P.M. EDT Federico Mena Quintero wrote: > To the Foundation membership: please don't dignify this rant with a > response. The poster is not even a Foundation member. > > Federico > > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Open Letter to the IT community, the GNOME Foundation, and Niel McGovern
To the Foundation membership: please don't dignify this rant with a response. The poster is not even a Foundation member. Federico ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?
On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 2:44 AM meg ford via foundation-list wrote: > I'd prefer to use Discourse. I'm sick of the spam and would like to leave > foundation list, but still want to read Board minutes. > +1, the latest unsolicited spam/troll email on the foundation list has really been the final straw for me. Better moderation and filtering is more important than edge-cases in text rendering. Regards, Nirbheek ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Open Letter to the IT community, the GNOME Foundation, and Niel McGovern
On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 2:25:22 P.M. EDT you wrote: > Neil's blog post, for those missing it: > https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relationship-gnu-fsf/ > > For my part, I want to apologize to everyone involved in GNOME for not > pushing GNOME to formally sever its ties with GNU a decade ago, which is > the first time in my email archives I can find formal complaints about > Richard's sexism. (His imperious 'I am the dictator of GNU, GNOME MUST OBEY > ME' behavior leaves a nearly 20 year-long trail across my inbox as well.) > Focusing on this particular offense is a mistake - there are two decades of > offensive, problematic communication and ineffective leadership, of which > this is only the latest. > GNOME uses the GPL and GNU software. As do many other large, complicated, projects that are commercial or otherwise. The basis to run GNOME is GNU and is so heavily tied that the BSDs have largely given up trying to constantly port it (systemd being the other factor). Without GNU, GNOME is derelict. Yet, it is only GNOME that has a problem with Dr.Stallman. QT doesn' t. KDE doesn' t. Many other projects, do not. Logically the problem is not Dr.Stallman but GNOME. I have a remedy for this: remove the political extremists contanimating GNOME and it' s highly unethical and unprofessional Executive Director. You did not present an argument or reason that was based on an ethical or principled reasoning. Your paragraph shows a personal vendetta and no objective reasoning. > I'm glad Neil is taking that step now, am fully supportive, and very sorry > that it took so long. Software freedom is central to who we are, and > Richard's leadership of GNU has actively set back software freedom, both by > running GNU like an ineffective personal fiefdom and by repeatedly > offending many people who might have been fruitful contributors. > You can term it whatever you wanted but the ethical question is: who are you to say who can run an organization you are hostile too? Dr.Stallman started both FSF & GNU and he did not force you or anyone else to use GNU software or use the GPL. He defined the criteria of Free Software. While others termed "open source", were willing to compromise propietary (i.e. binary blogs) tainting he spoke against it. Decades of defending against tainting and compromise of the principles of Free Software and you say he has "set back software freedom". Then in another paragraph you say "I apologize to everyone for not pushing GNOME to formally sever its ties with GNU a long time ago". Which is it? Free software or to sever ties with Free Software? > I'm sad about this - there's an alternate history where GNOME is an active > part of a strong, healthy GNU project. But GNU is neither of those things > right now, and Richard is a huge part of it. It's long past time for us to > send a message about it. > What alternate history? One being drafted right now? The founder of GNOME rage quitted GNU/Linux, praised Apple and then went to work for Microsoft. A historical pattern is repeating itself. It is becoming apparent that GNOME is becoming a major nuisance to Free Software which it cannot divorce itself from. Like a bad wife it blames the husband for her own fustrations, bags packed at the door threatening to leave but never does. > Neil, I wonder if there's space for coordination with other "peripheral" > GNU projects about this? It seems like individuals quitting their FSF > membership was important to the board's action there, and perhaps > organizations doing the same with GNU might be an effective way of sending > the message there. > Another destructive proposition. How about GNOME if it must support an immoral and unprofessional Executive Director quit being destructive? The creative thing to do would be to change the license, write your own damn programs, fund your own project, and quit trying to undermine the projects you are wedded too but are too destructive and weak to divorce from. It is also the moral and ethical, the right thing, to do. > Luis > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 8:10 AM Jake D. Parsons via foundation-list < > foundation-list@gnome.org> wrote: > > > Greetings; > > > > I attached a text file with the text that gave me my basis for this > > accusation > > from Neil McGovern' s blog: Liberal Musings. > > > > I call for Neil McGovern to step down from his position as the Executive > > Director of the GNOME Foundation for the betterment of software freedom, > > basic civility in the community, ethics, and professionalism between the > > community and the world at large. > > > > It is one thing for someone to not have reading comprehension skills and > > it is a magnitude of another to personally jump on the bandwagon to defame, > > criminally libel, and outright lie, about what RMS said in the infamous > > letter. It is unethical and unprofessional for someone in an Executive > > position to do so. Let me be very clear: the words used and how they were >
Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?
Hi, I'd prefer to use Discourse. I'm sick of the spam and would like to leave foundation list, but still want to read Board minutes. Thanks, Meg On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 7:22 AM Tobias Mueller wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, 2019-08-13 at 18:28 +, Olav Vitters wrote: > > It's > > even possible to make Discourse behave like an mailing list. > I found the discourse mailing list mode to be inferior to a mailing > list. > > For example, code posted on the Web looks much different than what gets > sent via email, cf. https://ibb.co/g3nHtB5. I don't think it's possible > to discuss code like that. > Another issue I have is that the "mailing list mode" effectively > subscribes you to every "mailing list" rather than the one you were > interested in. > I appreciate that the "guide to discourse with email" posted at > https://discourse.gnome.org/t/interacting-with-discourse-via-email/46 > mentions that the mailing list mode is "hardcore", but the alternatives > are lacking. That is, "watching" a topic doesn't send you an email if you > have read (or written) something on the Web interface. At least that didn't > work for me. > I can now mute topics, but then I get surprised as soon as new mailing > lists are being created on the discourse platform. > > Or have I just not found the right buttons to click? > > > Also, I wonder what the expected benefits of blocking replies to a > thread that hasn't received a message for 14 days are. Or is that just > default configuration that hasn't been changed? > > Cheers, > Tobi > > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Open Letter to the IT community, the GNOME Foundation, and Niel McGovern
Neil's blog post, for those missing it: https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relationship-gnu-fsf/ For my part, I want to apologize to everyone involved in GNOME for not pushing GNOME to formally sever its ties with GNU a decade ago, which is the first time in my email archives I can find formal complaints about Richard's sexism. (His imperious 'I am the dictator of GNU, GNOME MUST OBEY ME' behavior leaves a nearly 20 year-long trail across my inbox as well.) Focusing on this particular offense is a mistake - there are two decades of offensive, problematic communication and ineffective leadership, of which this is only the latest. I'm glad Neil is taking that step now, am fully supportive, and very sorry that it took so long. Software freedom is central to who we are, and Richard's leadership of GNU has actively set back software freedom, both by running GNU like an ineffective personal fiefdom and by repeatedly offending many people who might have been fruitful contributors. I'm sad about this - there's an alternate history where GNOME is an active part of a strong, healthy GNU project. But GNU is neither of those things right now, and Richard is a huge part of it. It's long past time for us to send a message about it. Neil, I wonder if there's space for coordination with other "peripheral" GNU projects about this? It seems like individuals quitting their FSF membership was important to the board's action there, and perhaps organizations doing the same with GNU might be an effective way of sending the message there. Luis On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 8:10 AM Jake D. Parsons via foundation-list < foundation-list@gnome.org> wrote: > Greetings; > > I attached a text file with the text that gave me my basis for this > accusation > from Neil McGovern' s blog: Liberal Musings. > > I call for Neil McGovern to step down from his position as the Executive > Director of the GNOME Foundation for the betterment of software freedom, > basic civility in the community, ethics, and professionalism between the > community and the world at large. > > It is one thing for someone to not have reading comprehension skills and > it is a magnitude of another to personally jump on the bandwagon to defame, > criminally libel, and outright lie, about what RMS said in the infamous > letter. It is unethical and unprofessional for someone in an Executive > position to do so. Let me be very clear: the words used and how they were > used in this campaign against RMS are grounds for him to sue a lot of > people if he so choosed to do so. His opponents lacking his ethical rigour > know he won' t and mistake his virtue as a weakness and used criminal and > low brow methods against him. Very sore losers since they obviously cannot > argue him. > > First this is what Neil McGovern wrote: > > "This came after the president of the FSF made some pretty reprehensible > remarks saying that the “most plausible scenario is that [one of Epstein’s > underage victims] presented themselves as entirely willing” while being > trafficked." > > This poor victim was already trafficked Neil McGovern (your actions were > so despicable I refuse to call you with any civil salutation), Epstein was > prostituting her. Two separate crimes but you apparently picked one to care > about, the one that brings outrage and people stop analyzing what you are > saying as a whole based on emotion. As anyone who has lived on the > streets, or worked with street people knows, Mr.Stallman was perfectly > right in what he was saying. > > This can be easily observed by driving to a red light district and > pretending to be a client. There is also the thing called Stockholm > Syndrome where kidnapped females after release sympathize and defend their > kidnappers. Romans and the Sabines ~2, 600 years ago. It happens over and > over where the coerced is presented as willing. It is a very documented, > heavily researched, fact that is recognized from psychology too social > workers and your outrage of someone pointing out the obvious in the know > only shows it is you at fault for misinterpretation of easy adult reading > and then going overboard in your reaction. > > McGovern should have consulted prostitutes, rape victims, kidnap victims, > psychologists, people who have experience and professional credentials in > the subject matter before he unethically and unprofessionally threatens > another organization with "...Richard to step down from FSF and GNU and > let others continue in his stead. Should this not happen in a timely > manner, then I believe that severing the historical ties between GNOME, GNU > and the FSF is the only path forward." That is blackmail based on libel. > Two for two in criminal activity here and this is the Executive Director of > GNOME? The resignation of RMS only makes a point more solid; that Neil > McGovern used his professional office to further a personal, or corporate, > the source only known to him or insiders, agenda using a
Open Letter to the IT community, the GNOME Foundation, and Niel McGovern
Greetings; I attached a text file with the text that gave me my basis for this accusation from Neil McGovern' s blog: Liberal Musings. I call for Neil McGovern to step down from his position as the Executive Director of the GNOME Foundation for the betterment of software freedom, basic civility in the community, ethics, and professionalism between the community and the world at large. It is one thing for someone to not have reading comprehension skills and it is a magnitude of another to personally jump on the bandwagon to defame, criminally libel, and outright lie, about what RMS said in the infamous letter. It is unethical and unprofessional for someone in an Executive position to do so. Let me be very clear: the words used and how they were used in this campaign against RMS are grounds for him to sue a lot of people if he so choosed to do so. His opponents lacking his ethical rigour know he won' t and mistake his virtue as a weakness and used criminal and low brow methods against him. Very sore losers since they obviously cannot argue him. First this is what Neil McGovern wrote: "This came after the president of the FSF made some pretty reprehensible remarks saying that the “most plausible scenario is that [one of Epstein’s underage victims] presented themselves as entirely willing” while being trafficked." This poor victim was already trafficked Neil McGovern (your actions were so despicable I refuse to call you with any civil salutation), Epstein was prostituting her. Two separate crimes but you apparently picked one to care about, the one that brings outrage and people stop analyzing what you are saying as a whole based on emotion. As anyone who has lived on the streets, or worked with street people knows, Mr.Stallman was perfectly right in what he was saying. This can be easily observed by driving to a red light district and pretending to be a client. There is also the thing called Stockholm Syndrome where kidnapped females after release sympathize and defend their kidnappers. Romans and the Sabines ~2, 600 years ago. It happens over and over where the coerced is presented as willing. It is a very documented, heavily researched, fact that is recognized from psychology too social workers and your outrage of someone pointing out the obvious in the know only shows it is you at fault for misinterpretation of easy adult reading and then going overboard in your reaction. McGovern should have consulted prostitutes, rape victims, kidnap victims, psychologists, people who have experience and professional credentials in the subject matter before he unethically and unprofessionally threatens another organization with "...Richard to step down from FSF and GNU and let others continue in his stead. Should this not happen in a timely manner, then I believe that severing the historical ties between GNOME, GNU and the FSF is the only path forward." That is blackmail based on libel. Two for two in criminal activity here and this is the Executive Director of GNOME? The resignation of RMS only makes a point more solid; that Neil McGovern used his professional office to further a personal, or corporate, the source only known to him or insiders, agenda using a flash point that had a good amount of social pressure as leverage. Or that his reading comprehension skills are so low, acted rashly based on subjective pressures instead of objective analysis makes him incompetent for the position. I find that he had an anti-software freedom agenda and is willing to use dirty and unethical tricks to be less insulting than the other which implies stupidity. Either way it is a remarkable display of unethical and unprofessional behaviour that should not be allowed in something as far reaching in the GNOME Foundation and the cause of the effect does not matter as much as removing the instigator. Neil McGovern with the aid of those he supported sullied the reputation of the GNOME Foundation and the community amongst the sober minded who usually are a silent majority. No, Neil McGovern and the rest of the loud mouthed squeaky wheels you do not speak for the majority. Especially when your actions weaken the cause and hands our hard won freedoms to proprietary tyrants. Below I' am going to quote the disputed letter in full so people like Neil McGovern in positions of responsibility but act like dirty politicians have less chance to manipulate text for their own selfish goals: "The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims)” The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X. The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim
