Re: two questions for candidates

2007-12-03 Thread Luis Villa
On Dec 3, 2007 1:11 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If people are going to be looking at licenses, I would very
 much like to discuss the FDL v2, and our usage of the FDL in
 general.  There are some troublesome parts whose implications
 for GNOME aren't clear to me.

 Would you like to pick someone to discuss this with the FSF?

 Also, I'm not certain how the copyleft nature of the FDL will
 impact the dynamic-collection-of-pages nature of Mallard.

 That someone could discuss this too.  It is not too late for us
 to change the text of the next FDL version, so please don't wait.

Presumably I (or James Vasile on our behalf) can do this, though I'd
really rather not do it in the middle of my exams :) Is there a public
schedule for the next FDL, Richard? I tried to find one on the gplv3
website the other day and failed.

Luis
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-12-03 Thread Richard Stallman
There is no schedule for the next FDL.  Since Wikipedia has made up
its mind, I want to (and owe it to them to) work on this soon.
However, there is time to listen to suggestions, if they come soon.
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-12-02 Thread Luis Villa
On Nov 30, 2007 3:56 PM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If people are going to be looking at licenses, I would very
  much like to discuss the FDL v2, and our usage of the FDL in
  general.  There are some troublesome parts whose implications
  for GNOME aren't clear to me.

 My immediate gut instinct on this one is 'we're stuck with it whether
 we like it or not', but you know more about the copyright ownership of
 the docs than I do.

Something else to look at, BTW, would be that FDL 2 will apparently be
CC-SA compatible (not clear if that is 'FSF one way compatible' or
'actual two-way compatible', but wikipedia seems to think two-way
compatible), and that may be something we want to look at, since that
appears to be the fastest growing license commons on the non-code side
of the world.

Luis
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-12-02 Thread Richard Stallman
If people are going to be looking at licenses, I would very
much like to discuss the FDL v2, and our usage of the FDL in
general.  There are some troublesome parts whose implications
for GNOME aren't clear to me.

Would you like to pick someone to discuss this with the FSF?

Also, I'm not certain how the copyleft nature of the FDL will
impact the dynamic-collection-of-pages nature of Mallard.

That someone could discuss this too.  It is not too late for us
to change the text of the next FDL version, so please don't wait.
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-30 Thread Luis Villa
On Nov 30, 2007 3:51 PM, Shaun McCance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 14:54 -0500, Luis Villa wrote:
  On Nov 26, 2007 10:28 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
   Software Movement in general?
 
  I think the most pressing thing is that the Foundation and our
  partners need to investigate (with SFLC's help) the GPL v3, and decide
  whether or not to move forward on that. I've been involved with v3 for
  a long time now, and hopefully can help coordinate that effort.

 If people are going to be looking at licenses, I would very
 much like to discuss the FDL v2, and our usage of the FDL in
 general.  There are some troublesome parts whose implications
 for GNOME aren't clear to me.

My immediate gut instinct on this one is 'we're stuck with it whether
we like it or not', but you know more about the copyright ownership of
the docs than I do.

 Also, I'm not certain how the copyleft nature of the FDL will
 impact the dynamic-collection-of-pages nature of Mallard.

I'd love to look into that if I'm elected; please remind me about the
question if/when that happens. (I'm not really taking down todos quite
yet.)

Luis
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-29 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 10:28 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
 OOXML?

No.  (send it out sooner is not a valid answer.)


 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
 Software Movement in general?

By providing what it's good at and aiming for: providing excellent, easy
to use, i18nized, accessible, stable desktop software.

-- 
behdad
http://behdad.org/

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
 Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759



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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-28 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 12:04:14PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
 quote who=Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
 
  Microsoft isn't defending OOXML under the terms defined by ISO.
 
 So we should be as grubby and corrupt as them?

No, we simply shouldn't be lax or complacent with a convicted entity who
has not changed its methods, as if it was a normal human being.

 What I am saying here is not
 that we should put up a weak fight. I am saying we should *defeat* OOXML
 under the terms defined by ISO.

As far as ISO is concerned, GNOME Foundation participated in the
Disposition of Comments. We know that isn't true, but ECMA's PR is
clearly written in a way to suggest all those entities did it without
saying it outright.

BTW, Jeff, Jody: did the GNOME Foundation ever receive a notice from
ECMA to participate in the Disposition of Comments?

I'd really like to know that in order to call ECMA out in the open...

 I'm helping to do that in Australia. It is
 in the local standards bodies that the fight exists now. Not on the GNOME
 Foundation mailing list.

Yes, but the matter is of...

  Right on, but you could make sure not only geeks noticed the many poison
  pills of OOXML. This discussion is an evident proof one of the poison
  pills is getting at people.
 
 This discussion is not about supporting OOXML.

... profiling candidates :)

Rui

-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-28 Thread Vincent Untz
Hi,

Le lundi 26 novembre 2007, à 10:28 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit :
 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
 OOXML?

I might have changed a word or two, and I would have liked to see this
statement out sooner, as others said... But no big change.

 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
 Software Movement in general?

My first reaction to this question is that it's quite vague to me. I
mean, I can reply the GNOME Foundation is already supporting Free
Software because it supports GNOME and wants to see GNOME more widely in
use, and because it's advocating Free Software, and But this is no
news to anybody here, is it?

The goal of the Foundation is to support GNOME, and one of the core
values of GNOME is freedom.

Now, sometimes, it makes sense to support the movement by participating
in some campaigns with other organizations. We've done this with the Go
for OFL! campaign:
  http://www.unifont.org/go_for_ofl/
This is just an example, of course, but this gives you an idea of what
we can do.

Vincent

-- 
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-28 Thread Richard Stallman
 Right on, but you could make sure not only geeks noticed the many poison
 pills of OOXML. This discussion is an evident proof one of the poison
 pills is getting at people.

This discussion is not about supporting OOXML.

The discussion is about how to prevent OOXML from becoming an ISO
standard, which would enable Microsoft to present it as an open
standard and help it win a major battle against our community.

No one has suggested that we should do this in a dishonest way.
However, honesty does not require pretending that Microsoft is honest.
It also does not judging OOXML in a half-blind way based solely on the
technical aspects of the spec.

The many flaws (technical and legal) in OOXML are real problems
because they make it hard, or dangerous, to support OOXML in free
software.  By contrast, if ODF has a few technical flaws, they don't
matter much, because its principal implementation is already free
software.
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-27 Thread Gregory Leblanc
On Nov 26, 2007 2:54 PM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Nov 26, 2007 10:28 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
  2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
  Software Movement in general?

[snip]

 More long-term, working with the online desktop folks, and hopefully
 with many other interested parties, we need to reframe what software
 freedom means in a network-centric world. It is now abundantly clear
 to most everyone that source code access is frequently insufficient to
 guarantee user autonomy; the question, then, is what additional (or
 perhaps different) requirements will help our users maintain their
 autonomy in the future. This is much bigger than GNOME, of course, but
 it seems likely that we will be at the cutting edge of it, and so
 we're going to have to deal with it whether we're the best forum for
 it or not :)

I'm not quite clear on what you mean here, Luis.  Can you suggest some
links that I might peruse that would describe what you mean by 'user
autonomy' and why source code access is insufficient to guarantee it?
Thanks,
 Greg
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-27 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Jeff Waugh

 quote who=Richard Stallman
 
  1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
  OOXML?
 
 I'd probably include a message about not fighting OOXML on political
 grounds because they have no impact on the ISO standardisation process. To
 succeed, we need to fight OOXML under the terms defined by ISO, which
 means nuking it as hard was we possibly can on technical grounds.

Actually, a very important point, which I'm not just saying because this is
a reply to a question from Richard... :-)

What I *wouldn't* change in our statement is that the number 1 point in our
position statement was Software Freedom, and that our final comment was to
encourage people to contribute to Software Freedom.

That's important because ultimately, whatever goes on with standards and
their impact on our industry, *our* number 1 priority is Software Freedom,
and making sure our users can access it, use it and enjoy it.

- Jeff

-- 
GNOME.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australia http://live.gnome.org/Melbourne2008
 
   Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light. - Spike Milligan
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two questions for candidates

2007-11-26 Thread Richard Stallman
1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
OOXML?

2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
Software Movement in general?
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-26 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Richard Stallman

 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
 OOXML?

I'd probably include a message about not fighting OOXML on political grounds
because they have no impact on the ISO standardisation process. To succeed,
we need to fight OOXML under the terms defined by ISO, which means nuking it
as hard was we possibly can on technical grounds.

 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
 Software Movement in general?

By creating rocking Free Software that is easy to use, accessible and usable
for users around the world, whether they're ubergeeks or neophytes. :-) The
phrase I use that I think best illustrates GNOME's values in this regard is:

  Software Freedom is not just for geeks!

:-)

- Jeff

-- 
linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/
 
   I still fervently believe that the only way to make software secure,
  reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy
 Tanenbaum
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-26 Thread Diego Escalante Urrelo
Hey,

On 11/26/07, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
 OOXML?


Mmmm, I would have included a line in all-caps saying GNOME
Foundation doesn't like OOXML, we have someone in the committee
because standard or not Ms is gonna push it everywhere, so we are
taking the chance to ask questions and raise concern on all the
problems we can find. :).

I think the statement was fine, a bit longer than what the regular
netizen would read however, so my new line would only be to avoid lazy
netizens spreading FUD.

As Jeff says on another thread, statement or not, the people hating
us for being there is not going to ever be happy. So I'd print that
line only to make it clearer for the ocassional bystander.

 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
 Software Movement in general?

By keeping the high quality of GNOME and supporting the grow of our
great community (note that it's on hackers hands to do it, but on
Foundation's to encourage it).
I always like to talk about GNOME when people asks or wonders about
free software being too hippie or non serious. My personal view is
that GNOME is a great argument for confirming that free software can
be more serious and efficient than any other privative alternative
(think about our release cycle).

I think the Foundation is already helping free software by supporting
GNOME and promoting it, it also does a great job being a proxy to all
the companies interested in the project.
Nuking the brick walls for GNOME also nuke them for other projects.

see ya!
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-26 Thread Luis Villa
On Nov 26, 2007 10:28 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
 OOXML?

I wish it were more explicit about how the Foundation feels that the
ODF folks have been undermining the standards process. It isn't
obvious to everyone that ODF shares much of the blame for the
politicization of the process, so the statements about that in the
statement are a little vague.

I suppose it could have been more aggressive about describing
Microsoft as a multiply-convicted monopolist, but everyone already
knows that; being more explicit about it would mostly have been
redundant.

Finally, I'd have liked it to have been more timely. I think Jeff is
right that it would not have changed the impact much (we'd still have
been flamed) but we'd have looked like we were doing it above board,
instead of trying to sneak behind anyone's back.

 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
 Software Movement in general?

I think the most pressing thing is that the Foundation and our
partners need to investigate (with SFLC's help) the GPL v3, and decide
whether or not to move forward on that. I've been involved with v3 for
a long time now, and hopefully can help coordinate that effort.

More long-term, working with the online desktop folks, and hopefully
with many other interested parties, we need to reframe what software
freedom means in a network-centric world. It is now abundantly clear
to most everyone that source code access is frequently insufficient to
guarantee user autonomy; the question, then, is what additional (or
perhaps different) requirements will help our users maintain their
autonomy in the future. This is much bigger than GNOME, of course, but
it seems likely that we will be at the cutting edge of it, and so
we're going to have to deal with it whether we're the best forum for
it or not :)

Luis
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Re: two questions for candidates

2007-11-26 Thread Lucas Rocha
Hi,

2007/11/26, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
 OOXML?

I would change the date it was released. :-) I think the most serious
problem about GNOME Foundation participation on ECMA TC45-M was that
it wasn't properly explained and clarified to the community at the
time it started. The statement came after a lot of noise.

About the content, no, I wouldn't change the core message. Anyway,
I've already given my opinion about OOXML on the previous set of
questions.

 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
 Software Movement in general?

- By supporting the GNOME community on bringing outstanding user
experience 100% based on Free Software
- By promoting the GNOME Project around the world so that
universities, NGO's, governments, social movements, private companies,
and other organizations know that they can perform their daily tasks
with Free Software
- By promoting the GNOME Project around the world so that we can bring
more contributors to our (and other) communities

--lucasr
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