Re: gnome integration mailing list .. Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 04/28/2011 10:29 PM, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: Is it also intended to be a place where the various downstreams (including regular distros) can work together in distributing GNOME? Regards, Tomeu That would be distributor-list@ gnome. org . There are already discussions but following the face to face meeting we had in Bangalore (and to which I am supposed to summarize and act upon) we will start to promote it a bit more. Thanks. Fred ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: gnome integration mailing list .. Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
2011/4/26 Sriram Ramkrishna : > > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Brian Cameron > wrote: >> >> For a long time, The GNOME Foundation has been discussing how to make >> it more possible to partner with other organizations. Lately we have >> been talking about how to better promote organizations that do GNOME or >> GTK+ consulting. There is also value in providing some way to promote >> organizations that wish to donate or provide resources to The GNOME >> Foundation. Perhaps we should be working to solve the larger problem? >> > > I was thinking about the thread Martyn started earlier based off the minutes > and of course how to get organizations that do consulting for GNOME and GTK+ > involved and I thought that a mailing list on how to integrate GNOME into > your environment or device might be an appropriate channel for these > things. Companies and individuals like sysadmins can talk about how to > integrate GNOME into their customer environment. Using a .sig, individuals > or companies can advertise that they are available for hire as an option. > > I don't know how successful it will be, but I know on gnome-shell-list we do > have a lot of people who are sysadmins and they do talk about issues of > integration for what they are doing which is which lead to my inspiration > about having something involving sysadmins, hardware experts etc. Is it also intended to be a place where the various downstreams (including regular distros) can work together in distributing GNOME? Regards, Tomeu > As Brian pointed out, it will require some infrastructure to be able to > advertise and encourage this kind of thing. Building up a set of experts > who can help integrate I think would help a lot of smaller companies adopt > GNOME for their desktop and embedded devices need and also build a market > for consulting, but we need a central place to allow for that kind of thing. > > sri > > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > > ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: gnome integration mailing list .. Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > > I don't know how successful it will be, but I know on gnome-shell-list > we do > > have a lot of people who are sysadmins and they do talk about issues of > > integration for what they are doing which is which lead to my inspiration > > about having something involving sysadmins, hardware experts etc. > > > Is it also intended to be a place where the various downstreams > (including regular distros) can work together in distributing GNOME? > > Certainly. Distros are in the business of integrating and so absolutely downstream folks could/should participate. From that perspective, we could work together on keeping GNOME 3's visuals consistent across distros. Rather than have radical different themes across distros it would be nice to maintain GNOME's default look and feel yet have enough uniqueness between distros to distinguish their brand while respecting ours. The mailing list is already created gnome-integration-l...@gnome.org, feel free to subscribe. I'll work on getting a wiki page going, a discussion for a charter, and I'll talk about it on Planet GNOME with some examples on what I would like to see and what it means to integrate GNOME into your environment. sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: gnome integration mailing list .. Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Brian Cameron > wrote: > >> >> For a long time, The GNOME Foundation has been discussing how to make >> it more possible to partner with other organizations. Lately we have >> been talking about how to better promote organizations that do GNOME or >> GTK+ consulting. There is also value in providing some way to promote >> organizations that wish to donate or provide resources to The GNOME >> Foundation. Perhaps we should be working to solve the larger problem? >> >> > I was thinking about the thread Martyn started earlier based off the > minutes and of course how to get organizations that do consulting for GNOME > and GTK+ involved and I thought that a mailing list on how to integrate > GNOME into your environment or device might be an appropriate channel for > these things. Companies and individuals like sysadmins can talk about how > to integrate GNOME into their customer environment. Using a .sig, > individuals or companies can advertise that they are available for hire as > an option. > > I don't know how successful it will be, but I know on gnome-shell-list we > do have a lot of people who are sysadmins and they do talk about issues of > integration for what they are doing which is which lead to my inspiration > about having something involving sysadmins, hardware experts etc. > > As Brian pointed out, it will require some infrastructure to be able to > advertise and encourage this kind of thing. Building up a set of experts > who can help integrate I think would help a lot of smaller companies adopt > GNOME for their desktop and embedded devices need and also build a market > for consulting, but we need a central place to allow for that kind of thing. > > Since, nobody has responded. I'm going to assume this is a good idea and I'm going JFDI. I'll probably need to figure out a charter for this mailing list. Details on the blogs, and I'm going to do some recruitment. sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 26/04/11 15:29, Brian Cameron wrote: Martyn: On 04/26/11 02:11 AM, Martyn Russell wrote: No comments from anyone on this? Here are my thoughts... I could put something a bold on the gtk.org website, but I would rather we had something more centralised on gnome.org for all companies? I get the feeling there isn't much interest in this? I think there is a lot of interest, actually. [snip] Another example is that sometimes organizations do things like donate a server or computer to The GNOME Foundation. The GNOME website does not currently have a nice place to say thanks about such things. The Friends of GNOME has a page to thank previous donors[1], but it does not seem the right place to thank organizations, and does not seem particularly inspired anyway. I think (as said before) "Support" is quite an expansive word and everyone can think of different meanings for that word. What I had in mind, was more along the lines of: http://qt.nokia.com/services-partners In my experiences using technologies like GTK+ at former companies, businesses want to know there is a place they can go to if they need (professional) help. For Qt, it's their website and a number of certified partners. If you take that further, you then can provide a service phone number, etc as Bastien mentioned. I don't think you can just do this in one place (i.e. a gnome.org url), I think you also need to do this on project websites too (like gtk.org). It's the first place I would expect to find something. Right now, there is nothing AFAICS which a potential business could find (easily or at all) by going to gtk.org or gnome.org. -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
gnome integration mailing list .. Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Brian Cameron wrote: > > For a long time, The GNOME Foundation has been discussing how to make > it more possible to partner with other organizations. Lately we have > been talking about how to better promote organizations that do GNOME or > GTK+ consulting. There is also value in providing some way to promote > organizations that wish to donate or provide resources to The GNOME > Foundation. Perhaps we should be working to solve the larger problem? > > I was thinking about the thread Martyn started earlier based off the minutes and of course how to get organizations that do consulting for GNOME and GTK+ involved and I thought that a mailing list on how to integrate GNOME into your environment or device might be an appropriate channel for these things. Companies and individuals like sysadmins can talk about how to integrate GNOME into their customer environment. Using a .sig, individuals or companies can advertise that they are available for hire as an option. I don't know how successful it will be, but I know on gnome-shell-list we do have a lot of people who are sysadmins and they do talk about issues of integration for what they are doing which is which lead to my inspiration about having something involving sysadmins, hardware experts etc. As Brian pointed out, it will require some infrastructure to be able to advertise and encourage this kind of thing. Building up a set of experts who can help integrate I think would help a lot of smaller companies adopt GNOME for their desktop and embedded devices need and also build a market for consulting, but we need a central place to allow for that kind of thing. sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Olav: On 04/26/11 09:35 AM, Olav Vitters wrote: On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 09:29:09AM -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: For example, there have been several occasions where organizations have approached The GNOME Foundation wanting to donate funds with the idea of doing a link exchange. We have turned away such offers in That were real contacts with organizations that *really* wanted to support GNOME? I know of at least two occasions where there was a real discussion with another organization that worked with Free Software who wanted to advertise on the GNOME website. We turned them both away because we couldn't agree how to promote their organization on The GNOME website. I also see loads of link exchange emails for gnome.org and regard all as spam. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "link exchange". It really does not describe well the two situations that we had in the past. I used the term more because I figured people would understand the concept. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 09:29:09AM -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: > For example, there have been several occasions where organizations > have approached The GNOME Foundation wanting to donate funds with the > idea of doing a link exchange. We have turned away such offers in That were real contacts with organizations that *really* wanted to support GNOME? I also see loads of link exchange emails for gnome.org and regard all as spam. Emails are usually very generic and obvious that 1) they haven't visited the site 2) they're spamming every address they can find (secur...@gnome.org and so on) e.g. last one cc'ed c...@gnome.org send sent it to secur...@gnome.org and so on + sites which classify all our software as 'best ever' and 'please link to us' hrm.. maybe I am a bit offtopic :) -- Regards, Olav ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Martyn: On 04/26/11 02:11 AM, Martyn Russell wrote: On 18/04/11 18:01, Martyn Russell wrote: On 18/04/11 16:34, Stormy Peters wrote: No comments from anyone on this? Here are my thoughts... I could put something a bold on the gtk.org website, but I would rather we had something more centralised on gnome.org for all companies? I get the feeling there isn't much interest in this? I think there is a lot of interest, actually. For a long time, The GNOME Foundation has been discussing how to make it more possible to partner with other organizations. Lately we have been talking about how to better promote organizations that do GNOME or GTK+ consulting. There is also value in providing some way to promote organizations that wish to donate or provide resources to The GNOME Foundation. Perhaps we should be working to solve the larger problem? For example, there have been several occasions where organizations have approached The GNOME Foundation wanting to donate funds with the idea of doing a link exchange. We have turned away such offers in the past simply because The GNOME Foundation currently does not have the infrastructure to do this - namely there is no clear place on the GNOME website, GNOME planet, GNOME blogs, etc. to put such links or advertisements. We could also probably do more things like associating donor logos with events to better encourage donations and fund raising. For example, perhaps we could do more to sell package sponsorships where an organization could get their logo associated with a number of events over the year for a more reasonable cost than doing them all separately. Another example is that sometimes organizations do things like donate a server or computer to The GNOME Foundation. The GNOME website does not currently have a nice place to say thanks about such things. The Friends of GNOME has a page to thank previous donors[1], but it does not seem the right place to thank organizations, and does not seem particularly inspired anyway. I also have some concern about what the larger GNOME Foundation community even thinks about doing such things. Putting ads on a website can make for negative reactions, especially if not done tastefully. I would think this would be a concern regardless of whether promoting GTK+ or GNOME consulting firms, or organizations in general. In all of these situations, I would think that The GNOME Foundation would only want to be seen as endorsing organizations that are reputable and reasonably aligned with The GNOME Foundation's mission to promote GNOME and Free Software. So, there likely is a need to have some process to review and approve offers to promote such organizations or consulting firms. At any rate, if there is interest in tackling this problem, it seems like it might make most sense to solve the more general problem. These problems are so similar that it would probably be easier to tackle both at once and I think it would help this project gain traction. Brian [1] http://www-old.gnome.org/friends/previous-donors.html ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 10:52 +0100, Martyn Russell a écrit : > On 26/04/11 08:34, Vincent Untz wrote: > >Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 08:11 +0100, Martyn Russell a écrit : > >>I get the feeling there isn't much interest in this? > > > >You should take silence as "people should feel free to go ahead and do > >it" instead of as a sign of no interest, imho :-) > > I would be happy to instantiate this, however, the only web space I > really control is the GTK+ website and the Tracker website. I would > rather not start putting Lanedo service advertisements directly on > there, but rather link to a central place on gnome.org. > > Alternatively, I could start a live.gnome.org page to thrash out the > details (for review) and then perhaps put something on: I think putting some draft on a wiki page (or anywhere else) is a good start). > http://www.gnome.org/support-gnome/ Ah, this one is about "How people are supporting, as in helping, GNOME (with time and money)". I guess we'd want another page -- it's a bit of an issue that "support" can be used in those two ways, it's a bit confusing. Maybe "commercial-support"? Anyway, the web team can certainly find a good name once we have content :-) Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 26/04/11 08:34, Vincent Untz wrote: Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 08:11 +0100, Martyn Russell a écrit : I get the feeling there isn't much interest in this? You should take silence as "people should feel free to go ahead and do it" instead of as a sign of no interest, imho :-) I would be happy to instantiate this, however, the only web space I really control is the GTK+ website and the Tracker website. I would rather not start putting Lanedo service advertisements directly on there, but rather link to a central place on gnome.org. Alternatively, I could start a live.gnome.org page to thrash out the details (for review) and then perhaps put something on: http://www.gnome.org/support-gnome/ Or somewhere more appropriate? -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Le mardi 26 avril 2011, à 08:11 +0100, Martyn Russell a écrit : > I get the feeling there isn't much interest in this? You should take silence as "people should feel free to go ahead and do it" instead of as a sign of no interest, imho :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 18/04/11 18:01, Martyn Russell wrote: On 18/04/11 16:34, Stormy Peters wrote: I think we can list companies with some objective data. So we could list companies that do work associated with GNOME/GTK+ along with data like: * what areas they consider their expertise, * past clients with testimonials (assuming appropriate permissions), * links to work done (again with appropriate permission) or code they wrote or are responsible for, * links to their involvement with GNOME * people that work with them that are involved in GNOME, * GNOME Foundation advisory board, * employees that are GNOME Foundation members, * GNOME related talks they've given, * GNOME related training they are involved with * etc I think this is a great idea. It may make sense to start with Dave's map of companies presented at least year's GUADEC and correct from there. Something to consider though, companies are likely coming to GNOME looking for expertise in a project, not a company, so the focus needs to be more aligned to what they will be looking for IMO. The next question is, where do we host this data and who maintains it? No comments from anyone on this? I could put something a bold on the gtk.org website, but I would rather we had something more centralised on gnome.org for all companies? I get the feeling there isn't much interest in this? -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 18/04/11 16:34, Stormy Peters wrote: On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 4:58 AM, Martyn Russell mailto:mar...@lanedo.com>> wrote: On 18/04/11 11:49, Andreas Nilsson wrote: One of his ideas was to add a list of companies that gave GTK+ support (as in, custom development, not in "call this company when you hit a bug" sense). Yea, this idea has been floating around for a while. It's also why we have the affiliations listed. I agree, more can be done here. Also, as Bastien points out "support" is quite an expansive word and encompasses more than people may initially consider. I think we can list companies with some objective data. So we could list companies that do work associated with GNOME/GTK+ along with data like: * what areas they consider their expertise, * past clients with testimonials (assuming appropriate permissions), * links to work done (again with appropriate permission) or code they wrote or are responsible for, * links to their involvement with GNOME * people that work with them that are involved in GNOME, * GNOME Foundation advisory board, * employees that are GNOME Foundation members, * GNOME related talks they've given, * GNOME related training they are involved with * etc I think this is a great idea. It may make sense to start with Dave's map of companies presented at least year's GUADEC and correct from there. Something to consider though, companies are likely coming to GNOME looking for expertise in a project, not a company, so the focus needs to be more aligned to what they will be looking for IMO. The next question is, where do we host this data and who maintains it? -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 4:58 AM, Martyn Russell wrote: > On 18/04/11 11:49, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > > One of his ideas was to add a list of companies that gave GTK+ support >> (as in, custom development, not in "call this company when you hit a >> bug" sense). >> > > Yea, this idea has been floating around for a while. It's also why we have > the affiliations listed. I agree, more can be done here. > > Also, as Bastien points out "support" is quite an expansive word and > encompasses more than people may initially consider. > > I think we can list companies with some objective data. So we could list companies that do work associated with GNOME/GTK+ along with data like: * what areas they consider their expertise, * past clients with testimonials (assuming appropriate permissions), * links to work done (again with appropriate permission) or code they wrote or are responsible for, * links to their involvement with GNOME * people that work with them that are involved in GNOME, * GNOME Foundation advisory board, * employees that are GNOME Foundation members, * GNOME related talks they've given, * GNOME related training they are involved with * etc Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 18/04/11 11:49, Andreas Nilsson wrote: * Johannes Schmid informed the board that at the Toronto hackfest that they discussed about an organization that decided to use Qt instead of GTK+ mainly because they were able to get a support contract for Qt. Therefore we thought it might be a good idea to give interested companies a chance to present themselves as commercial support options on developer.gnome.org. Perhaps via some "Get support" link. Do we have any response? o ACTION: Andreas - Will discuss with Ryan Lortie providing support contracts for GTK+. Can I ask why the ACTION above says you will discuss with Ryan about providing support contracts for GTK+? Why not a mailing list with companies that have GTK+ or GLib core maintainers (perhaps GNOME in general even)? Hi! I said on the phone that I would briefly check the idea with Ryan since we shared a room in Bangalore (I was there when we had the board meeting). That's about as serious as it was. Sorry if the action item sounded more serious than it was. This totally needs to be brought up more broadly. What list would be best? - Andreas Hej Andreas, Now I also remember why I said Ryan's name on the phone specifically. Wow, I'm not really back 100% from this flue (this is also why it took some time with my reply) so my mind is not always clear. :) I recalled that Ryan told me in a hotel in Florida in October "you should totally do some fixes to the gtk.org website some time" (not in my board role, but in my do-website-stuff-role), to witch I replied "perhaps, do you have any specific ideas?". One of his ideas was to add a list of companies that gave GTK+ support (as in, custom development, not in "call this company when you hit a bug" sense). Yea, this idea has been floating around for a while. It's also why we have the affiliations listed. I agree, more can be done here. Also, as Bastien points out "support" is quite an expansive word and encompasses more than people may initially consider. Also, we can take the opportunity to update that page on the site when I have finished the review of the new gtk.org site design (which I am struggling to find the time to do at this point): http://curlybeast.net:8080/ I think this idea have been floating around in general and I think it would make sense to have to have such a list on either gtk.org or somewhere on gnome.org I completely agree. Again, sorry for any confusion. No problem at all, I was really just querying the meeting notes and asking for more dialog here. :) -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 04/18/2011 11:45 AM, Andreas Nilsson wrote: On 04/15/2011 12:39 PM, Martyn Russell wrote: Hi all, On 12/04/11 03:00, Brian Cameron wrote: The meeting minutes for the March 29th GNOME Foundation board meeting is now published. Refer here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20110329 Other past board meetings are archived here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes -- text of the latest minutes follows -- Minutes for Meeting of March 29th, 2011 Thank you for the minutes Brian. * Johannes Schmid informed the board that at the Toronto hackfest that they discussed about an organization that decided to use Qt instead of GTK+ mainly because they were able to get a support contract for Qt. Therefore we thought it might be a good idea to give interested companies a chance to present themselves as commercial support options on developer.gnome.org. Perhaps via some "Get support" link. Do we have any response? o ACTION: Andreas - Will discuss with Ryan Lortie providing support contracts for GTK+. Can I ask why the ACTION above says you will discuss with Ryan about providing support contracts for GTK+? Why not a mailing list with companies that have GTK+ or GLib core maintainers (perhaps GNOME in general even)? Hi! I said on the phone that I would briefly check the idea with Ryan since we shared a room in Bangalore (I was there when we had the board meeting). That's about as serious as it was. Sorry if the action item sounded more serious than it was. This totally needs to be brought up more broadly. What list would be best? - Andreas Now I also remember why I said Ryan's name on the phone specifically. Wow, I'm not really back 100% from this flue (this is also why it took some time with my reply) so my mind is not always clear. :) I recalled that Ryan told me in a hotel in Florida in October "you should totally do some fixes to the gtk.org website some time" (not in my board role, but in my do-website-stuff-role), to witch I replied "perhaps, do you have any specific ideas?". One of his ideas was to add a list of companies that gave GTK+ support (as in, custom development, not in "call this company when you hit a bug" sense). I think this idea have been floating around in general and I think it would make sense to have to have such a list on either gtk.org or somewhere on gnome.org Again, sorry for any confusion. - Andreas ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 04/15/2011 06:01 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 17:42 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote: That's backwards. We're in early discussion about what we should do to engage the companies. So, yes, having a mailing-list for all those interested companies would certainly be helpful. Having a "directory" of companies on the developer.gnome.org website was also mentioned. What's backwards is discussing with one person who doesn't run a business how to engage with businesses. The more people you ask, the more ideas you will have to choose from. This is the sort of ideas that we're looking to get some information about, eg. what means of communication would be best to engage the companies in the first place. I see. Do you have more context here, or an example even? In my case, mostly migrating from Solaris to Linux APIs. In the case of GTK+ apps, I'd expect, migrating my app from Windows to Linux. OK. - best practices when needing to change the implementation We can provide that (if you mean specific code bases like GTK+). Kris Rietveld (from Lanedo) even did a talk about it last year at GUADEC which might be available somewhere. He spoke about vendor specific branches and working with upstream repositories. No. Not GTK+'s implementation. The customer's application's implementation. In our experience, it's not always about the customer's app, sometimes GTK+ needs improving too. - (possible) bugs found in underlying libraries that (might) need fixing, usually caused by bad or lacking documentation, or actual bugs. What's the question here? I think there's quite a bit of confusion there about what developer support is, so I'll rephrase it. It's gtk-app-devel-list or StackExchange with somebody on the other end that's being paid to answer you, and that can be sued if they don't deliver. Via e-mail. Or phone. Or through a web interface. I see. The above is, at best, hard to interpret. If you have a formal list of things to ask, please make it public here and I can reply certainly. Do you, or any other companies in the GNOME eco-system provide developer support as defined above? If not, then Andreas doesn't need to speak to Ryan, and the problem is solved. We wouldn't have a good case to edge companies that write their software in-house towards GTK+. Yes, we have provided support like this for companies before. Imendio even offered to it BT when I was working there. -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 04/15/2011 12:39 PM, Martyn Russell wrote: Hi all, On 12/04/11 03:00, Brian Cameron wrote: The meeting minutes for the March 29th GNOME Foundation board meeting is now published. Refer here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20110329 Other past board meetings are archived here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes -- text of the latest minutes follows -- Minutes for Meeting of March 29th, 2011 Thank you for the minutes Brian. * Johannes Schmid informed the board that at the Toronto hackfest that they discussed about an organization that decided to use Qt instead of GTK+ mainly because they were able to get a support contract for Qt. Therefore we thought it might be a good idea to give interested companies a chance to present themselves as commercial support options on developer.gnome.org. Perhaps via some "Get support" link. Do we have any response? o ACTION: Andreas - Will discuss with Ryan Lortie providing support contracts for GTK+. Can I ask why the ACTION above says you will discuss with Ryan about providing support contracts for GTK+? Why not a mailing list with companies that have GTK+ or GLib core maintainers (perhaps GNOME in general even)? Hi! I said on the phone that I would briefly check the idea with Ryan since we shared a room in Bangalore (I was there when we had the board meeting). That's about as serious as it was. Sorry if the action item sounded more serious than it was. This totally needs to be brought up more broadly. What list would be best? - Andreas ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 17:42 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote: > On 15/04/11 14:45, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:39 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote: > > We wanted to discuss with someone involved in that space what our > > options were.It's an informal chat about what could be done. Andreas > > took on the action item, and chose to talk with Ryan because he knows > > Ryan well. > > > > If I had taken on the action item, I'd probably have asked Robert > > McQueen or Murray Cumming because I know them well, and have had plenty > > of interaction with them. > > This does really just illustrate what I am trying to point out. Doesn't > it make more sense to have a mailing list for all companies involved in > GNOME to discuss things like this instead of asking specific people from > specific companies? You would get much more feedback and a more general > consensus. That's backwards. We're in early discussion about what we should do to engage the companies. So, yes, having a mailing-list for all those interested companies would certainly be helpful. Having a "directory" of companies on the developer.gnome.org website was also mentioned. This is the sort of ideas that we're looking to get some information about, eg. what means of communication would be best to engage the companies in the first place. > > He's not representing anyone, and he won't be a decision maker in the > > process. The representatives would be contacted once we have a more > > accomplished idea about this. > > What's to decide? How we want to engage the companies to start discussing the problems we mentioned. > The representatives which Ryan informs you about? > > Idea about offering services? Surely asking many people yields better > results than asking just one person? > > > But, at the end of the day, you can also help yourself by providing us > > with your feedback, or better, stepping up to the plate and do the work > > to fill those needs and help us help you. > > Gladly, just let me know what you want feedback on. What work is needed? > > I was actually planning on doing something with Stormy during the past > year, but never got around to it (that's my fault of course). > > > Ranting and raving about how we want to have an informal chat with > > someone about a topic you might be interested is counter-productive. > > Where did I rant? > > I actually suggested a more open forum to help you get that "informal > chat" from more sources to help you make a more informed decision. > > > Returning to the topic at hand. Do any of the companies you mentioned > > provide developer support for GTK+? I've had the experience of providing > > developer support for Red Hat (that did include fixing Motif bugs...), > > Yes. > > We certainly do of course. > > I am confident Collabora and Igalia do or have, perhaps even Openismus. > In the end, unless you ask *us* how can you know? I am guessing based on > rumour and upstream contributions. You can't know for sure without > approaching companies. > > > and most of the questions were about: > > - migration from one platform to another > > Do you have more context here, or an example even? In my case, mostly migrating from Solaris to Linux APIs. In the case of GTK+ apps, I'd expect, migrating my app from Windows to Linux. > > - best practices when needing to change the implementation > > We can provide that (if you mean specific code bases like GTK+). Kris > Rietveld (from Lanedo) even did a talk about it last year at GUADEC > which might be available somewhere. He spoke about vendor specific > branches and working with upstream repositories. No. Not GTK+'s implementation. The customer's application's implementation. > > - (possible) bugs found in underlying libraries that (might) need > > fixing, usually caused by bad or lacking documentation, or actual bugs. > > What's the question here? I think there's quite a bit of confusion there about what developer support is, so I'll rephrase it. It's gtk-app-devel-list or StackExchange with somebody on the other end that's being paid to answer you, and that can be sued if they don't deliver. Via e-mail. Or phone. Or through a web interface. > > All of this is quite a different proposition from providing a turn-key > > finished application, especially with the depth of the stack we provide. > > Not sure what you're saying here? > > > I'm waiting to hear about your ideas on this. > > The above is, at best, hard to interpret. If you have a formal list of > things to ask, please make it public here and I can reply certainly. Do you, or any other companies in the GNOME eco-system provide developer support as defined above? If not, then Andreas doesn't need to speak to Ryan, and the problem is solved. We wouldn't have a good case to edge companies that write their software in-house towards GTK+. Cheers ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http:
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On 15/04/11 14:45, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:39 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote: We wanted to discuss with someone involved in that space what our options were.It's an informal chat about what could be done. Andreas took on the action item, and chose to talk with Ryan because he knows Ryan well. If I had taken on the action item, I'd probably have asked Robert McQueen or Murray Cumming because I know them well, and have had plenty of interaction with them. This does really just illustrate what I am trying to point out. Doesn't it make more sense to have a mailing list for all companies involved in GNOME to discuss things like this instead of asking specific people from specific companies? You would get much more feedback and a more general consensus. We wanted opinion on how we could have the Foundaton provide what some third-party developers were asking for. Andreas chose to talk to Ryan about it. It's informal, and an information gathering exercise. Ryan won't be the one making decisions in the end, the Board will be. Sure. But the board then makes a decision based on one person's view, not the collective view of businesses around GNOME which could be offering such services. We told Stormy last year at GUADEC that we really need a forum or way for potential customers to contact businesses around GNOME and get support for the GNOME stack. We have seen first hand how companies have offered services when they don't have the expertise and subsequently frightened off larger corporations as a result. We want to avoid this too. That would be a problem here, especially if the list was filled in by the companies themselves. You need *some* dialog with companies otherwise you don't know what's on offer as a foundation acting on behalf of GNOME for small business. Please can we have some open forum about this instead of expecting one person in the community who isn't representative of all companies with maintainers in those areas, being contacted? He's not representing anyone, and he won't be a decision maker in the process. The representatives would be contacted once we have a more accomplished idea about this. What's to decide? The representatives which Ryan informs you about? Idea about offering services? Surely asking many people yields better results than asking just one person? But, at the end of the day, you can also help yourself by providing us with your feedback, or better, stepping up to the plate and do the work to fill those needs and help us help you. Gladly, just let me know what you want feedback on. What work is needed? I was actually planning on doing something with Stormy during the past year, but never got around to it (that's my fault of course). Ranting and raving about how we want to have an informal chat with someone about a topic you might be interested is counter-productive. Where did I rant? I actually suggested a more open forum to help you get that "informal chat" from more sources to help you make a more informed decision. Returning to the topic at hand. Do any of the companies you mentioned provide developer support for GTK+? I've had the experience of providing developer support for Red Hat (that did include fixing Motif bugs...), Yes. We certainly do of course. I am confident Collabora and Igalia do or have, perhaps even Openismus. In the end, unless you ask *us* how can you know? I am guessing based on rumour and upstream contributions. You can't know for sure without approaching companies. and most of the questions were about: - migration from one platform to another Do you have more context here, or an example even? - best practices when needing to change the implementation We can provide that (if you mean specific code bases like GTK+). Kris Rietveld (from Lanedo) even did a talk about it last year at GUADEC which might be available somewhere. He spoke about vendor specific branches and working with upstream repositories. - (possible) bugs found in underlying libraries that (might) need fixing, usually caused by bad or lacking documentation, or actual bugs. What's the question here? All of this is quite a different proposition from providing a turn-key finished application, especially with the depth of the stack we provide. Not sure what you're saying here? I'm waiting to hear about your ideas on this. The above is, at best, hard to interpret. If you have a formal list of things to ask, please make it public here and I can reply certainly. Pleasant weekend all, -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:39 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote: > Hi all, > > On 12/04/11 03:00, Brian Cameron wrote: > > > > The meeting minutes for the March 29th GNOME Foundation board > > meeting is now published. Refer here: > > > > http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20110329 > > > > Other past board meetings are archived here: > > > > http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes > > > > -- text of the latest minutes follows -- > > > > Minutes for Meeting of March 29th, 2011 > > Thank you for the minutes Brian. > > > * Johannes Schmid informed the board that at the Toronto hackfest > > that they discussed about an organization that decided to use Qt > > instead of GTK+ mainly because they were able to get a support > > contract for Qt. Therefore we thought it might be a good idea to > > give interested companies a chance to present themselves as > > commercial support options on developer.gnome.org. Perhaps via > > some "Get support" link. Do we have any response? > > o ACTION: Andreas - Will discuss with Ryan Lortie providing > > support contracts for GTK+. > > Can I ask why the ACTION above says you will discuss with Ryan about > providing support contracts for GTK+? Why not a mailing list with > companies that have GTK+ or GLib core maintainers (perhaps GNOME in > general even)? We wanted to discuss with someone involved in that space what our options were. It's an informal chat about what could be done. Andreas took on the action item, and chose to talk with Ryan because he knows Ryan well. If I had taken on the action item, I'd probably have asked Robert McQueen or Murray Cumming because I know them well, and have had plenty of interaction with them. > How this looks to us and potentially other companies involved in GTK+: > > 1. Ryan is not representative of all companies out there offering > services around the GTK+ stack and it is a conflict of interest to > involve just him (what of Collabora, Openismus, Igalia, Lanedo and > perhaps even others)? We wanted opinion on how we could have the Foundaton provide what some third-party developers were asking for. Andreas chose to talk to Ryan about it. It's informal, and an information gathering exercise. Ryan won't be the one making decisions in the end, the Board will be. > We told Stormy last year at GUADEC that we really need a forum or way > for potential customers to contact businesses around GNOME and get > support for the GNOME stack. We have seen first hand how companies have > offered services when they don't have the expertise and subsequently > frightened off larger corporations as a result. We want to avoid this too. That would be a problem here, especially if the list was filled in by the companies themselves. > Please can we have some open forum about this instead of expecting one > person in the community who isn't representative of all companies with > maintainers in those areas, being contacted? He's not representing anyone, and he won't be a decision maker in the process. The representatives would be contacted once we have a more accomplished idea about this. But, at the end of the day, you can also help yourself by providing us with your feedback, or better, stepping up to the plate and do the work to fill those needs and help us help you. Ranting and raving about how we want to have an informal chat with someone about a topic you might be interested is counter-productive. Returning to the topic at hand. Do any of the companies you mentioned provide developer support for GTK+? I've had the experience of providing developer support for Red Hat (that did include fixing Motif bugs...), and most of the questions were about: - migration from one platform to another - best practices when needing to change the implementation - (possible) bugs found in underlying libraries that (might) need fixing, usually caused by bad or lacking documentation, or actual bugs. All of this is quite a different proposition from providing a turn-key finished application, especially with the depth of the stack we provide. I'm waiting to hear about your ideas on this. Cheers ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Hi! > 1. Ryan is not representative of all companies out there offering > services around the GTK+ stack and it is a conflict of interest to > involve just him (what of Collabora, Openismus, Igalia, Lanedo and > perhaps even others)? As I brought this up: * I didn't discuss this with Ryan IIRC, just with Shaun and Germán. * My intention was to give all these companies that support GNOME in some or the other way a chance to present them (or at least have their name in the list). As mentioned in my mail to the board, I personally don't care how the board handles the "support" term but it would be good to have some formal way of telling people what they need to do to appear on such a page. * I don't think the board/Ryan/Andreas want to priviliges someone/some company here but it seems that this action item tives a wrong impression. * I am not affiliated with any of those companies and even if I used to work for Openismus in the past, I didn't discuss this with anybody apart from the people at the hackfest mentioned above. For what it's worth I still thing this would be a win-win situation for everybody! Regards, Johannes ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Hi all, On 12/04/11 03:00, Brian Cameron wrote: The meeting minutes for the March 29th GNOME Foundation board meeting is now published. Refer here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20110329 Other past board meetings are archived here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes -- text of the latest minutes follows -- Minutes for Meeting of March 29th, 2011 Thank you for the minutes Brian. * Johannes Schmid informed the board that at the Toronto hackfest that they discussed about an organization that decided to use Qt instead of GTK+ mainly because they were able to get a support contract for Qt. Therefore we thought it might be a good idea to give interested companies a chance to present themselves as commercial support options on developer.gnome.org. Perhaps via some "Get support" link. Do we have any response? o ACTION: Andreas - Will discuss with Ryan Lortie providing support contracts for GTK+. Can I ask why the ACTION above says you will discuss with Ryan about providing support contracts for GTK+? Why not a mailing list with companies that have GTK+ or GLib core maintainers (perhaps GNOME in general even)? How this looks to us and potentially other companies involved in GTK+: 1. Ryan is not representative of all companies out there offering services around the GTK+ stack and it is a conflict of interest to involve just him (what of Collabora, Openismus, Igalia, Lanedo and perhaps even others)? 2. Ryan maintains GLib mostly not GTK+. If it's about GTK+, why not Matthias or someone completely detached and neutral? 3. Ryan has also not been maintaining GLib for as long as some other maintainers in the GNOME ecosystem. -- For those who are unaware of Lanedo's involvement with GNOME and GTK+ in particular, here is a quick summary. We've been involved in the GLib/GTK+ since 2005 (as a company) and been pushing it in a number of ways: - We have professionally offered services to Samsung and Nokia since 2005 for GTK+, I'm sure Lanedo is not alone in this too. - We have GNOME 3 and GTK+ 3 now, which is (IMO) largely down to Micke Hallendal (then leading Imendio) pushing the idea a few years back at GUADEC (though discussions that were not so public). - Free propaganda through the Berlin hackfest t-shirts, stickers and tattoos in Istanbul, etc. etc. -- We told Stormy last year at GUADEC that we really need a forum or way for potential customers to contact businesses around GNOME and get support for the GNOME stack. We have seen first hand how companies have offered services when they don't have the expertise and subsequently frightened off larger corporations as a result. We want to avoid this too. Please can we have some open forum about this instead of expecting one person in the community who isn't representative of all companies with maintainers in those areas, being contacted? -- Regards, Martyn ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
Olav: On 04/12/11 07:39 AM, Olav Vitters wrote: On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 09:00:06PM -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: * Paul& Andreas - Will raise their concerns regarding allowing GNOME projects joining the Conservancy. Seems outcome is -1. What's bad/concern? There is nothing bad about Conservancy. It is a great organization that is promoting free software. What's not to like? Note that the last time we talked with the Conservancy, they were still trying to determine whether or not they would be willing to accept GNOME projects. If they decide not, then joining the Conservancy may not be an option for GNOME projects regardless of what we think. That said, the GNOME board of directors are not very supportive of GNOME projects joining the Conservancy. Since The GNOME Foundation is already a non-for-profit, our organization is in a position to provide most, if not all, of the useful benefits that Conservancy provides. Overall, we feel it is better for GNOME projects to work within the GNOME framework if possible. Thats said, it took the Conservancy a long time to set up its organization to provide its benefits. So, the board hopes that people in the GNOME community can be patient as we figure out how to set up similar benefits. For example, The GNOME Foundation is currently working to figure out how to better manage accounting so we can handle the additional burden of helping GNOME projects do more targeted fund raising. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Brian Cameron wrote: > >* On February 16th, Joanmarie Diggs asked if the GNOME a11y PayPal > account can be used to receive GNOME a11y funds. > o The main issue is that The GNOME Foundation does not have >the staff to handle the accounting. Currently all PayPal >transactions are handled manually. If this could be >automated, this would make it more possible to consider >this sort of request. > o Perhaps The GNOME Foundation needs to find volunteers or >hire people to help with accounting or to automate PayPal & >CRM automation. > The contractor I passed on to Rosanna can automate the PayPal - > CiviCRM piece. Also if we put the requirements that Rosanna/German came up with for automating the accounting, I'm sure we could find a contractor for that. > >* There has also been discussion about whether GNOME projects > should be allowed to join Conservancy. > o Andreas, Bastien, Paul: -1 > o Emily, German, Og, Paul: 0 > o ACTION: Brian - Will follow up with the lawyers to discuss >what would be involved to provide liability protection like >what the Conservancy provides and to see if they have any >perspective about whether the GNOME Foundation should allow >GNOME projects to join Conservancy. > o ACTION: Paul & Andreas - Will raise their concerns allowing >GNOME projects joining the Conservancy. > > I hope we see some more of this discussion on the Foundation lists. It worries me that we are passing on GNOME projects to the Conservancy. It makes it sound like the GNOME Foundation cannot provide for GNOME projects ... Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 09:00:06PM -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: > * There has also been discussion about whether GNOME projects > should be allowed to join Conservancy. > o Andreas, Bastien, Paul: -1 > o Emily, German, Og, Paul: 0 [..] > * CiviCRM Improvements > o The board decided to approve $1,000 (USD) to improve the > CiviCRM, as Rosanna requested. > o ACTION: Og - Will notify Rosanna that $1,000 (USD) to > improve CiviCRM has been approved. This concerns stuff that goes upstream or more like a fork (aka local improvements)? Local changes quickly become a problem (example: Bugzilla), also difficult when security updates are made (example: Bugzilla.. sometimes updates have conflicts). > * Improve news.gnome.org > o ACTION: Andreas - Will look into planet.gnome.org header to > see if we can add a link to see news.gnome.org. This will > help more readers to hopefully notice IRC meeting. This used to be the case. Maybe the 'banner' which is on gnome.org should show all GNOME hosted planets? (ux, news, people/planet, 2 others as well.. see planet-web git module for details). > Status of action items [..] > * Andreas - To ask Kat if she can reach out to the > gnome...@gnome.org mailing list about finding local German > volunteers to help with the Desktop Summit 2011. (will ping again) Some of the The Hague volunteers mentioned (remember William from Texas saying this) during the GNOME 3 party that they'd be willing to assist this year. But that would not be local. > * Paul & Andreas - Will raise their concerns regarding allowing > GNOME projects joining the Conservancy. Seems outcome is -1. What's bad/concern? -- Regards, Olav ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011
The meeting minutes for the March 29th GNOME Foundation board meeting is now published. Refer here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20110329 Other past board meetings are archived here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes -- text of the latest minutes follows -- Minutes for Meeting of March 29th, 2011 Next Meeting * April 11th, 2011 Attending * Andreas Nilsson * Bastien Nocera * Brian Cameron * Emily Chen * Germán Póo-Caamaño * Og Maciel * Paul Cutler * Rosanna Yuen Regrets Missing Recurring Items * Review past action items. * Did each person update their action items? * Approve and make sure that minutes of last meeting were published to foundation-announce and foundation-list. * Make sure to use gobby server for better minute taking. New Items * On February 16th, Joanmarie Diggs asked if the GNOME a11y PayPal account can be used to receive GNOME a11y funds. o The main issue is that The GNOME Foundation does not have the staff to handle the accounting. Currently all PayPal transactions are handled manually. If this could be automated, this would make it more possible to consider this sort of request. o Perhaps The GNOME Foundation needs to find volunteers or hire people to help with accounting or to automate PayPal & CRM automation. o ACTION: Paul - Will write a response to Joanie Diggs to discuss how to move forward regarding receiving GNOME a11y funds. * There has also been discussion about whether GNOME projects should be allowed to join Conservancy. o Andreas, Bastien, Paul: -1 o Emily, German, Og, Paul: 0 o ACTION: Brian - Will follow up with the lawyers to discuss what would be involved to provide liability protection like what the Conservancy provides and to see if they have any perspective about whether the GNOME Foundation should allow GNOME projects to join Conservancy. o ACTION: Paul & Andreas - Will raise their concerns allowing GNOME projects joining the Conservancy. * CiviCRM Improvements o The board decided to approve $1,000 (USD) to improve the CiviCRM, as Rosanna requested. o ACTION: Og - Will notify Rosanna that $1,000 (USD) to improve CiviCRM has been approved. * GNOME 3 release! o Andreas feels that the GNOME 3 release is solid. * GNOME.Asia (Brian, Andreas, or Emily - update) o Lots of good work getting done on marketing, the release team, improving websites, fixing bugs. o Everybody in Bangalore is excited about the Hackfest. o The entrance admission has been eliminated, so the number of participants is naturally increasing. o The event is profitable even though there is no longer an entrance fee. * GNOME 3 Launch Party Update o Some parties have had trouble receiving the goodies due to tax issues. o Alan & Emily are planning a GNOME 3 Launch Party photo competition. o The board decided to return the $700 (USD) surplus to The GNOME Foundation bank account. * Johannes Schmid informed the board that at the Toronto hackfest that they discussed about an organization that decided to use Qt instead of GTK+ mainly because they were able to get a support contract for Qt. Therefore we thought it might be a good idea to give interested companies a chance to present themselves as commercial support options on developer.gnome.org. Perhaps via some "Get support" link. Do we have any response? o ACTION: Andreas - Will discuss with Ryan Lortie providing support contracts for GTK+. * Improve news.gnome.org o ACTION: Andreas - Will look into planet.gnome.org header to see if we can add a link to see news.gnome.org. This will help more readers to hopefully notice IRC meeting. * Continuing to work towards improving relationships with Canonical. Completed Actions * Bastien - To e-mail Murray about contacting UPS one more time regarding the lost Event Box. * Bastien - Will help find a home for the European Event Box. * Emily - Create a PO in Oracle and transfer the gold sponsorship from Oracle to GNOME.Asia Summit 2011 (Done, in process) * Emily - Produce, Deliver and Tracking goodies for GNOME 3.0 Launch Parties.(Done) * Emily - Prepare to launch the GNOME Store in Beijing o http://gnome.taobao.com/ * Og - Will notify Rosanna that $1,000 (USD) to improve CiviCRM has been approved. This new action item was completed shortly after the meeting. Status
