Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[Oliver Propst]

Hm yes think a news-item is something that would make very much sense

-- 
-mvh Oliver Propst
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Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[Sébastien Wilmet]

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 04:26:23AM +, philip.chime...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:53 AM Sébastien Wilmet  wrote:
> > But… when someone donates to one of the above fundraisings, the GNOME
> > Foundation doesn't receive any money. So there would be in some way a
> > "competiton" with https://www.gnome.org/support-gnome/ . So maybe the
> > GNOME Foundation doesn't want to highlight other fundraisings on the
> > website. But this would come in conflict with the goal of the GNOME
> > Foundation which is to "further the goals of the GNOME Project".
>
> I disagree with your statement that _not_ highlighting these fundraisers
> would come into conflict with the goal to "further the goals of the GNOME
> project." Furthering the goals of the GNOME project does not mean
> exhaustively taking every possible action that might help those goals by
> any amount, no matter how big or small.

Yeah, true.

I'll see what I can do.

Anyway, I would add that everything that involves money becomes quickly
complicated.

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Sébastien
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Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[Sébastien Wilmet]

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 05:07:43PM +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote:
> I can see your concern with user-visible vs. non-visible projects, e.g.
> libraries vs. user visible apps, but I feel this is also a non issue
> because in fact; we have always had an easier time to find funding for
> the development of our platform - and as long as we continue to produce
> a platform that is competitive and remains useful to a wide variety of
> applications outside of just the "GNOME Desktop" use cases, this will
> remain true.
> 
> It would seem to me at least, it is the user visible apps within GNOME
> which have been left behind in funding, and need to resort to public
> fundraising, because (almost) nobody is building products and
> generating revenue with these highly GNOME Desktop specific user facing
> Apps.

It depends, there are apps that are/were well funded (for example
gnome-builder), and there are libraries under-funded (for example
GtkSourceView).

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Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[meg ford]

Hi,

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Sébastien Wilmet  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are a number of GNOME or GNOME-related project fundraisings:
>
> For GIMP:
> https://www.gimp.org/donating/
> https://www.patreon.com/pippin
> http://film.zemarmot.net/en/
>
> PulseAudio: https://www.patreon.com/tanuk
> GTK+, Corebird, ...: https://www.patreon.com/baedert
> And now GtkSourceView: https://liberapay.com/GtkSourceView/


>
> (Are there others?)
>
> Those projects are useful to GNOME. But none of them have reached their
> funding goals. GNOME has a nice website, it would be nice to highlight
> the above fundraisings on the website, and/or writing a news article,
> talking about them on social media, etc.
>

The board has been asked to support at least one of the fundraisers you
mention, and the we referred the people who asked to the Engagement Team so
they could write a news article and talk about them on social media.
Speaking with my Board hat on, I think it is fine for the Foundation to
support fundraisers in the ways you mention. I don't think it's appropriate
for GNOME to donate foundation money to fundraisers since that money was
given specifically to the Foundation, but I do not see any conflict in us
offering other kinds of support to foundation members who are trying to
raise money for projects.

I think the best course of action is for you and other foundation members
to reach out to the Engagement Team, and to work with them to publicize
your fundraiser. Since they are volunteer-driven, I'd advise you to take
initiative on tasks (like writing an article and then asking the team for
feedback), stay involved in the process, and ask the core team to provide
support. I think you will get the best results that way.

Cheers,
Meg


> But… when someone donates to one of the above fundraisings, the GNOME
> Foundation doesn't receive any money. So there would be in some way a
> "competiton" with https://www.gnome.org/support-gnome/ . So maybe the
> GNOME Foundation doesn't want to highlight other fundraisings on the
> website. But this would come in conflict with the goal of the GNOME
> Foundation which is to "further the goals of the GNOME Project".
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Sébastien
>
> PS: I'm the author of the GtkSourceView fundraising.
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>
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Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[Sébastien Wilmet]

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 05:07:43PM +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote:
> Regarding competition of fundraising for the *development* of
> individual projects - I don't think competition with foundation
> fundraising is an issue; as there is no conflict of interest.
> 
> When people sponsor the foundation, they expect to be paying for
> infrastructure, operational overhead, occasional legal advice,
> conference and hackfest budget, etc.

OK, indeed there is no conflict of interest. But, currently, I think
that people who donate to the GNOME Foundation are not always aware that
the money isn't primarily used for development (at least that was the
case for me when I was just a simple user years ago).

So by listing other fundraisings on the GNOME website, this would maybe
have the effect that the GNOME Foundation receives less donations.

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Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[Tristan Van Berkom]

On Fri, 2017-09-29 at 11:51 +0200, Sébastien Wilmet wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> There are a number of GNOME or GNOME-related project fundraisings:
> 
> For GIMP:
>   https://www.gimp.org/donating/
>   https://www.patreon.com/pippin
>   http://film.zemarmot.net/en/
> 
> PulseAudio: https://www.patreon.com/tanuk
> GTK+, Corebird, ...: https://www.patreon.com/baedert
> And now GtkSourceView: https://liberapay.com/GtkSourceView/
> 
> (Are there others?)
> 
> Those projects are useful to GNOME. But none of them have reached
> their
> funding goals. GNOME has a nice website, it would be nice to
> highlight
> the above fundraisings on the website, and/or writing a news article,
> talking about them on social media, etc.
> 
> But… when someone donates to one of the above fundraisings, the GNOME
> Foundation doesn't receive any money. So there would be in some way a
> "competiton" with https://www.gnome.org/support-gnome/ . So maybe the
> GNOME Foundation doesn't want to highlight other fundraisings on the
> website. But this would come in conflict with the goal of the GNOME
> Foundation which is to "further the goals of the GNOME Project".
> 
> Any thoughts?

Hi Sébastien,

I think that the sponsorship for development, especially for otherwise
entirely volunteer driven projects, is certainly an important topic
that I wish we had solved many years ago.

Indeed, I might have had more incentive to attempt to fundraise for
Glade in the past had the foundation been more supportive, even to the
point of offering infrastructure or at least endorsement and guidance
to assist us in setting up successful fundraising.

Regarding competition of fundraising for the *development* of
individual projects - I don't think competition with foundation
fundraising is an issue; as there is no conflict of interest.

When people sponsor the foundation, they expect to be paying for
infrastructure, operational overhead, occasional legal advice,
conference and hackfest budget, etc.

The problem here I think, is as soon as there is overlap, a conflict of
interest does arise (e.g. we should not be endorsing sponsorship of
GIMP specific conferences and hackfests running independently of
GNOME). This would be particularly dangerous because it could invite
factionalism within a community which draws strength in unity (the
foundation would be weakened by any other "sub-foundations" assuming
foundation-like roles, we should not encourage this).

So, I would love to see a solution for public funding of developer
hours, but we should be careful of the dangers surrounding this.

Regarding Philip's concerns about competition between projects under
the GNOME umbrella, I whole heartedly disagree that this is an issue,
rather a competitive environment is one where talent is fostered and
projects thrive; let's encourage a healthy and competitive environment.

Equal opportunity, diversity and non-discrimination are great values,
and they are by no means in conflict with a healthy and competitive
environment, we shouldn't be getting these wires crossed.

I can see your concern with user-visible vs. non-visible projects, e.g.
libraries vs. user visible apps, but I feel this is also a non issue
because in fact; we have always had an easier time to find funding for
the development of our platform - and as long as we continue to produce
a platform that is competitive and remains useful to a wide variety of
applications outside of just the "GNOME Desktop" use cases, this will
remain true.

It would seem to me at least, it is the user visible apps within GNOME
which have been left behind in funding, and need to resort to public
fundraising, because (almost) nobody is building products and
generating revenue with these highly GNOME Desktop specific user facing
Apps.


Best Regards,
-Tristan

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Re: Highlight individual project fundraisings

[philip . chimento]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:53 AM Sébastien Wilmet  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There are a number of GNOME or GNOME-related project fundraisings:
>
> For GIMP:
> https://www.gimp.org/donating/
> https://www.patreon.com/pippin
> http://film.zemarmot.net/en/
>
> PulseAudio: https://www.patreon.com/tanuk
> GTK+, Corebird, ...: https://www.patreon.com/baedert
> And now GtkSourceView: https://liberapay.com/GtkSourceView/
>
> (Are there others?)
>
> Those projects are useful to GNOME. But none of them have reached their
> funding goals. GNOME has a nice website, it would be nice to highlight
> the above fundraisings on the website, and/or writing a news article,
> talking about them on social media, etc.
>
> But… when someone donates to one of the above fundraisings, the GNOME
> Foundation doesn't receive any money. So there would be in some way a
> "competiton" with https://www.gnome.org/support-gnome/ . So maybe the
> GNOME Foundation doesn't want to highlight other fundraisings on the
> website. But this would come in conflict with the goal of the GNOME
> Foundation which is to "further the goals of the GNOME Project".
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Sébastien
>
> PS: I'm the author of the GtkSourceView fundraising.
>

Let me mention first that I'm merely a person with an opinion, with no role
in the GNOME foundation, and my assumptions about how things work may well
be wrong :-)

I definitely wish you and the other fundraisers much success! Don't get me
wrong, I do support such things, and I have donated sometimes! But I think
for GNOME to structurally highlight these would create inequality between
GNOME projects (or even individual GNOME contributors, in the case of
personal Patreons) where setting up a fundraiser is required to "compete"
under the GNOME umbrella. Some inequality already exists because it's
easier to get donations for a visible end product such as an app, rather
than plumbing such as a platform library, or a thankless task such as
keeping builds green on Continuous, and I wouldn't want GNOME to magnify
that difference. (I do hope you prove me wrong with your fundraiser for
GtkSourceView.)

I disagree with your statement that _not_ highlighting these fundraisers
would come into conflict with the goal to "further the goals of the GNOME
project." Furthering the goals of the GNOME project does not mean
exhaustively taking every possible action that might help those goals by
any amount, no matter how big or small.

In my opinion, GNOME should spend its resources strategically on what helps
GNOME the most (and maybe that is a GNOME project's or individual's
fundraiser in some cases), and for that reason I'd rather GNOME continue to
promote donations for the foundation itself rather than for projects or
individuals.

Regards,
Philip C
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