Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Art Campbell]

​Do you have a URL for these? Nothing's googling up under either ​"Jang's
F.M. Circus" or Plug-in Hybrid Documents"

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 3:22 PM,  wrote:

> Plug-in Hybrid Documents





Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[jang]

Restricting cross-references from pointing to materials that are not inside 
text insets takes most of the usefulness of text insets out of the equation.
The issue with cross-references and text insets is that the FM cross-references 
contain a unique identifier as well as the file name of the referenced file. 
This is the source file of the text inset, which does not resolve to the file 
into which the text inset is inserted. Such issues can be resolved by 
scripting, which traverses all the files in a book searching for 
cross-reference targets. In the second pass, the script tries to resolve the 
targets for each cross-referece from the list of identifiers while disregarding 
the file names. When a match is found, the new file name replaces the one that 
was in the original reference. This is also what the XRef Wizard does for 
structured FM files.

FYI, I am delivering a series of 7 webinars hosted by Adobe, under the umbrella 
title of "Jang's F.M. Circus". The session on June 2nd revolves around creating 
unbreakable links. That builds on the previous session, on "Plug-in Hybrid 
Documents", where I show how FM can be connected to a MySQL database.

If companies need custom solutions, they can always approach me off-list. I am 
certain I can always find a solution for FM-related problems, whether they are 
in structured or unstructured documents, or a mix of these.

Jang F.M. Graat

The Frame Tamer

> West Street Consulting's XRef Wizard takes care of the problem with
> cross-references and text insets:
> 
> 
> 
> Requires Structured FrameMaker, though.
> 
> -j
> 
> On 2016-04-26 18:06, David Artman wrote:
> 
> > P.S. You missed a REAL and intractable issue: I've found sometimes that
> > cross-references just don't like text insets; and so I often advise a
> > strategy where headings are not the 'top leaf' of inset content, and the
> > actual-text-in-files must be targeted for cross-referencing (i.e.,
> > heading must be typed every time, then inset inserted). As such,
> > text-inset content can only really internally cross-reference (i.e.,
> > inside its own inset) or cross-reference between 'real' text in the
> > files that make the actual deliverable. Not a giant issue, but
> > non-optimal compared, say, to DITA conreffing.
> > 
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Johan Anglemark]

West Street Consulting's XRef Wizard takes care of the problem with 
cross-references and text insets:


http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_XRefWizard.htm

Requires Structured FrameMaker, though.

-j

On 2016-04-26 18:06, David Artman wrote:

P.S. You missed a REAL and intractable issue: I've found sometimes that
cross-references just don't like text insets; and so I often advise a
strategy where headings are not the 'top leaf' of inset content, and the
actual-text-in-files must be targeted for cross-referencing (i.e.,
heading must be typed every time, then inset inserted). As such,
text-inset content can only really internally cross-reference (i.e.,
inside its own inset) or cross-reference between 'real' text in the
files that make the actual deliverable. Not a giant issue, but
non-optimal compared, say, to DITA conreffing.


--
Johan Anglemark

Tel: 0708-65 10 88
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Robert Lauriston]

A longstanding bug was that cross-references in text insets would not
work reliably (e.g. hyperlinks would be dead in exported PDFs),
instead you had to use newlink and gotolink.

I don't know if Adobe ever fixed that.

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 9:06 AM, David Artman  wrote:
> ... I've found sometimes that
> cross-references just don't like text insets ...
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[David Artman]

One idea for you that I hope will be useful for these issues (works for
us!):

- There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text
insets are used. So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't
tell that other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text
inset and see where it's used.

First, you do need a book-of-books with all of your library in it.
Usually not too daunting; and if your library is vast, make several
divided by whatever scheme you like.

Then, simply append a "file-killer' suffix to the inset that you are
testing for locations (e.g., rename "inset_How-to-Foo.fm" to
"inset_How-to-Foo.fm.HIDE").

Finally, do an Update on the book(s)-of-books and see in the log where
you get errors because of the now-'missing' inset file. [I know that's a
bit tedious for EVERY inset file update, but if you REALLY want to be
sure of where you're hitting existing books]

- Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books
for that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable. 

Easy as pie! Make a 'warehouse book' which contains every single FM file
in your library, solely for the purposes of doing global searches.
Again, if your library is vast, make a set of them divided by whatever
scheme you find most useful. In fact, a categorization scheme could also
help you with inset discovery (i.e., writers checking whether something
they want to add to a publication is already written and reusable): The
easier it is to narrow down a search prior to turning FrameMaker's Find
dialog loose, the better for efficiency.

Hope this reaffirms your strategy! And don't take any duff from folks
who think managing hundreds of insets is a bad idea--I've seen libraries
with thousands
David

P.S. You missed a REAL and intractable issue: I've found sometimes that
cross-references just don't like text insets; and so I often advise a
strategy where headings are not the 'top leaf' of inset content, and the
actual-text-in-files must be targeted for cross-referencing (i.e.,
heading must be typed every time, then inset inserted). As such,
text-inset content can only really internally cross-reference (i.e.,
inside its own inset) or cross-reference between 'real' text in the
files that make the actual deliverable. Not a giant issue, but
non-optimal compared, say, to DITA conreffing.
DCA
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[russ]

I guess I should chime in here with some clarification... it is true
that InsetPlus will only work with structured Frame, because only a
structured document has the markup to allow better automation. The
reason that you struggle with insets in unstructured Frame is because
the lack of metadata simply prevents anything more advanced. This is
true with many aspects beyond text insets, but I begin to digress.

InsetPlus works with any structured document, provided that you have an
attribute available on both source and reference elements to make the
link. InsetPlus uses a methodology very similar to the DITA conref
mechanism, so "conref" and "id" are typical attribute names. However,
you can use any attributes defined in your EDD that are not in use for
something else.

InsetPlus is completely free and always will be. The download includes
sample files and a tutorial.

Russ (Owner, WSC) 

>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Tornquist, Patti <
> patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes and it looks excellent, but it only works with structured Frame.
>>
>> The jump from unstructured to structured Frame is quite significant.
>>
>> 
>> From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com <robert.lauris...@gmail.com> on behalf
>> of Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:03 PM
>> To: Tornquist, Patti; framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS
>>
>> Have you looked at InsetPlus?
>>
>> http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_InsetPlus.htm
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Tornquist, Patti
>> <patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
>>> We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12). So for
>> content that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and
>> then we can edit in one place and use it in multiple places.
>>>
>>> We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer,
>> and last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify
>> text insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> We have two main problems:
>>> - There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text
>> insets are used. So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell
>> that other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and
>> see where it's used.
>>> - Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books
>> for that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.


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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Johan Anglemark]

We are using InsetPlus together AXCM, also from West Street Consulting, 
and everything is automated with a set of ExtendScripts from JANG 
Communication - http://www.jang.nl/.


We're talking about a few hundred insets per FrameMaker book. Back when 
we were using Unstructured FrameMaker we more or less stopped using text 
insets because we thought they didn't really work, but in the publishing 
framework we are using now, they work really well.


-j

On 2016-04-22 18:15, Art Campbell wrote:

Robert, are you using this, or just knew about it?
_
And, it does look as if it requires structured Fm, but the web site (quick
perusal) doesn't say what kind of structure is required/supported.

Any know?



Art Campbell

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Tornquist, Patti <
patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:


Yes and it looks excellent, but it only works with structured Frame.

The jump from unstructured to structured Frame is quite significant.


From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com <robert.lauris...@gmail.com> on behalf
of Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:03 PM
To: Tornquist, Patti; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

Have you looked at InsetPlus?

http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_InsetPlus.htm

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Tornquist, Patti
<patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:

We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12).  So for

content that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and
then we can edit in one place and use it in multiple places.


We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer,

and last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify
text insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.


We have two main problems:
- There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text

insets are used.  So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell
that other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and
see where it's used.

- Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books

for that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.




--
Johan Anglemark, Technical Communicator & Localization Manager.
IAR Systems AB
Box 23051, Strandbodgatan 1
SE-750 23 Uppsala, SWEDEN
Mobile: +46 708 651088, Phone: +46 18 167894, Fax: +46 18 167838
E-mail: johan.anglem...@iar.com Website: www.iar.com
Twitter: www.twitter.com/iarsystems
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Robert Lauriston]

I've never used it.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Art Campbell <art.campb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert, are you using this, or just knew about it?
> _
> And, it does look as if it requires structured Fm, but the web site (quick
> perusal) doesn't say what kind of structure is required/supported.
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Tornquist, Patti
> <patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes and it looks excellent, but it only works with structured Frame.
>>
>> The jump from unstructured to structured Frame is quite significant.
>>
>> 
>> From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com <robert.lauris...@gmail.com> on behalf of
>> Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:03 PM
>> To: Tornquist, Patti; framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Subject: Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS
>>
>> Have you looked at InsetPlus?
>>
>> http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_InsetPlus.htm
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Tornquist, Patti
>> <patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
>> > We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12).  So for
>> > content that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and
>> > then we can edit in one place and use it in multiple places.
>> >
>> > We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer,
>> > and last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify
>> > text insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.
>> >
>> > We have two main problems:
>> > - There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text
>> > insets are used.  So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell
>> > that other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and
>> > see where it's used.
>> > - Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books
>> > for that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Robert Lauriston]

Yeah, if I was looking to move away from FrameMaker for the reasons
you are, Flare would be the one to beat. Its FrameMaker import is
excellent so if your docs are tagged consistently the transition is
relatively painless.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Tornquist, Patti
 wrote:
> Yes and it looks excellent, but it only works with structured Frame.
>
> The jump from unstructured to structured Frame is quite significant.
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Art Campbell]

Robert, are you using this, or just knew about it?
_
And, it does look as if it requires structured Fm, but the web site (quick
perusal) doesn't say what kind of structure is required/supported.

Any know?



Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Tornquist, Patti <
patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:

> Yes and it looks excellent, but it only works with structured Frame.
>
> The jump from unstructured to structured Frame is quite significant.
>
> 
> From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com <robert.lauris...@gmail.com> on behalf
> of Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:03 PM
> To: Tornquist, Patti; framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS
>
> Have you looked at InsetPlus?
>
> http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_InsetPlus.htm
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Tornquist, Patti
> <patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
> > We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12).  So for
> content that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and
> then we can edit in one place and use it in multiple places.
> >
> > We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer,
> and last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify
> text insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.
> >
> > We have two main problems:
> > - There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text
> insets are used.  So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell
> that other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and
> see where it's used.
> > - Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books
> for that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.
> ___
>
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Tornquist, Patti]

Yes and it looks excellent, but it only works with structured Frame.

The jump from unstructured to structured Frame is quite significant.


From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com <robert.lauris...@gmail.com> on behalf of 
Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 12:03 PM
To: Tornquist, Patti; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

Have you looked at InsetPlus?

http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_InsetPlus.htm

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Tornquist, Patti
<patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
> We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12).  So for content 
> that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and then we can 
> edit in one place and use it in multiple places.
>
> We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer, and 
> last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify text 
> insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.
>
> We have two main problems:
> - There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text insets 
> are used.  So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell that 
> other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and see 
> where it's used.
> - Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books for 
> that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Robert Lauriston]

Have you looked at InsetPlus?

http://www.weststreetconsulting.com/WSC_InsetPlus.htm

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Tornquist, Patti
 wrote:
> We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12).  So for content 
> that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and then we can 
> edit in one place and use it in multiple places.
>
> We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer, and 
> last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify text 
> insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.
>
> We have two main problems:
> - There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text insets 
> are used.  So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell that 
> other than through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and see 
> where it's used.
> - Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books for 
> that string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Tornquist, Patti]

We are using insets for reuse (and we use unstructured FM12).  So for content 
that is used in multiple places, we make it into a text inset and then we can 
edit in one place and use it in multiple places.

We log the insets in a spreadsheet by fm file name, topic title, writer, and 
last change date, and then we regularly run a book of books to identify text 
insets and determine if we're missing any in the spreadsheet.

We have two main problems:
- There is no way, other than our spreadsheet, to see where the text insets are 
used.  So if inset A is used in book A, B, and C, we can't tell that other than 
through the spreadsheet. You can't click the text inset and see where it's used.
- Also, if we need to find information and we search the book or books for that 
string, we can't find it as text insets aren't searchable.  

Also, we are evaluating Flare and looking into structured Frame.  We know that 
a tool change will not be easy, however, so we want to be certain it meets our 
needs in doc and helps the business.

Thanks, Patti 


From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com <robert.lauris...@gmail.com> on behalf of 
Robert Lauriston <rob...@lauriston.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 11:35 AM
To: Tornquist, Patti; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

Could you describe the end result? It's not exactly clear what you're
trying to accomplish. Are you generating multiple versions of a
document with different sets of insets? If so, how many documents and
how many insets?

Generally speaking, I would not try to do that with unstructured
FrameMaker. In that situation I'd be evaluating Flare and other tools
with stronger reuse capabilities.

That said, you could use Subversion or any similar revision control
system to group different sets of insets.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 5:53 AM, Tornquist, Patti
<patti.tornqu...@teamquest.com> wrote:
> In several posts recently, Framers have mentioned using Frame as a CMS with 
> text insets.  We are using text insets in Frame, but we're really struggling 
> with the CMS part.  We are "managing" the insets in a spreadsheet and that is 
> not very effective and takes quite a bit of maintenance.
>
> Could Framers who are using Frame as a CMS expound on that a bit?
>
> Thanks in advance for the insights --
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Robert Lauriston]

Could you describe the end result? It's not exactly clear what you're
trying to accomplish. Are you generating multiple versions of a
document with different sets of insets? If so, how many documents and
how many insets?

Generally speaking, I would not try to do that with unstructured
FrameMaker. In that situation I'd be evaluating Flare and other tools
with stronger reuse capabilities.

That said, you could use Subversion or any similar revision control
system to group different sets of insets.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 5:53 AM, Tornquist, Patti
 wrote:
> In several posts recently, Framers have mentioned using Frame as a CMS with 
> text insets.  We are using text insets in Frame, but we're really struggling 
> with the CMS part.  We are "managing" the insets in a spreadsheet and that is 
> not very effective and takes quite a bit of maintenance.
>
> Could Framers who are using Frame as a CMS expound on that a bit?
>
> Thanks in advance for the insights --
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Art Campbell]

And to whoever is seriously using this to manage 50-100+ insets and do it
well, please share the drugs...


Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Pat Christenson <
pat.christen...@morningstar.com> wrote:

> Please share your observations on the list or with me privately. I've been
> thinking about this and will welcome input.
>
> Pat Christenson
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers [mailto:framers-bounces+pat.christenson=
> morningstar@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Tornquist, Patti
> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 7:54 AM
> To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS
>
> In several posts recently, Framers have mentioned using Frame as a CMS
> with text insets.  We are using text insets in Frame, but we're really
> struggling with the CMS part.  We are "managing" the insets in a
> spreadsheet and that is not very effective and takes quite a bit of
> maintenance.
>
> Could Framers who are using Frame as a CMS expound on that a bit?
>
> Thanks in advance for the insights --
>
> Patti Tornquist
> Product Documentation
> TeamQuest Corporation
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
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> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage
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>
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Re: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Pat Christenson]

Please share your observations on the list or with me privately. I've been 
thinking about this and will welcome input.

Pat Christenson

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+pat.christenson=morningstar@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of Tornquist, Patti
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 7:54 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

In several posts recently, Framers have mentioned using Frame as a CMS with 
text insets.  We are using text insets in Frame, but we're really struggling 
with the CMS part.  We are "managing" the insets in a spreadsheet and that is 
not very effective and takes quite a bit of maintenance.

Could Framers who are using Frame as a CMS expound on that a bit?

Thanks in advance for the insights --

Patti Tornquist
Product Documentation
TeamQuest Corporation
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[Framers] Using Frame as a little CMS

[Tornquist, Patti]

In several posts recently, Framers have mentioned using Frame as a CMS with 
text insets.  We are using text insets in Frame, but we're really struggling 
with the CMS part.  We are "managing" the insets in a spreadsheet and that is 
not very effective and takes quite a bit of maintenance.

Could Framers who are using Frame as a CMS expound on that a bit?

Thanks in advance for the insights --

Patti Tornquist
Product Documentation
TeamQuest Corporation
___

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