Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-06 Thread Jay Maechtlen 

And there are a number of front ends to make Latex easier.
and it/they can be run under Linux, removing the expense of Windows.
fwiw
Jay


On 10/5/2017 2:29 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

I think there are already enough tools out there that there's not much
demand for something new.

You might look at LibreOffice Writer and LibreOffice Draw, or Scribus.

People who think software design peaked 20+ years ago often use Latex.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Phillip Norman  wrote:

... I want a
simplified and inexpensive software going back to the roots of FrameMaker,
perhaps written by those Old Guys, and not owned by Adobe. Millions have a
chance to do their correspondence in something not Word-like, much better. ...

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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-05 Thread Robert Lauriston 
I think there are already enough tools out there that there's not much
demand for something new.

You might look at LibreOffice Writer and LibreOffice Draw, or Scribus.

People who think software design peaked 20+ years ago often use Latex.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Phillip Norman  wrote:
> ... I want a
> simplified and inexpensive software going back to the roots of FrameMaker,
> perhaps written by those Old Guys, and not owned by Adobe. Millions have a
> chance to do their correspondence in something not Word-like, much better. ...
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-05 Thread Phillip Norman 
I have a box of FrameMaker v5 from Frame technology. I loaded the program
in Windows 7 Professional, and of course learned nothing of program
workings, where I am peculiarly using the graphics palette. From the
beginning when v5.5.6 was new, I have been happy with merger of 2D graphics
of some complexity and great precision, with text documents such as
Purchase Orders. As this peculiar user, happy with v5.5.6, I am only
unhappy to be constrained to 32-bit computing.

I have talked to The List three times I think, in all those years of caring
about FrameMaker and skimming understandable things occasionally from
others. Where I talk to The List, it is always about this graphics suite,
and the fit to my brains in flexible document creation, despising automated
cookie-cutter Word and its predecessors that evolved from command language.
I know a few keystroke operations, but it is mostly type and place precise,
flexible simplicity.

I have tried to share samples of my work,hoping not all modern users are
publishing professionals. I show the often creation of house details in my
work as a construction contractor, on an accurately sized satellite photo.
I imagine large employment opportunities for people I call Diligence
Reporters, doing third-part quality control in construction, photos and
builder notes proving completion of check list requirements, then in many
ways surpassing "work" done by municipal jurisdictional authorities. I am
inspired by a customer-couple who worked as entertainers on cruise ships,
and would be happy in this Reporter relationship with respected builders,
working in The Cloud to escape boredom in the Indian Ocean. I want a
simplified and inexpensive software going back to the roots of FrameMaker,
perhaps written by those Old Guys, and not owned by Adobe. Millions have a
chance to do their correspondence in something not Word-like, much better.
The Reporters in-the-cloud, would find this flexible software more
intuitive than today's FrameMaker.

Can anyone help?

So, my v5 Frame Technology books are still shrink wrapped. Would I do well
to open and read them? Is the pristine box valuable?

Phillip Norman
Attic Access
Portland, Oregon
An Old Guy 73, and an inventor.
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-03 Thread Bernard Aschwanden 
And more complex terms as well. Try to find "how to add a sound clip" when a
writer wrote about "Inserting audio files" either because a developer/mgr
uses that term, or the company insists on using the actual menu names for
every single title and never considers that the audience may type
information in another fashion. Robert makes an excellent point.


-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+bernard=publishingsmarter@lists.frameusers.com]
On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 5:55 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
Subject: Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

Does FrameMaker support search aliases? If not, indexes can be very helpful
to users who might use a different terms. E.g. if the docs say "graph" but
users think of it as "chart."

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Wroblewski, Victoria
<victoria.wroblew...@necect.com> wrote:
> This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have
been quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker
from another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search,
people.
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-03 Thread Jay Maechtlen 
Hm - so as a user of FM 8 and later, one of the older manuals might be 
valuable to use with the newer ones as a reference?

Very interesting...

On 10/2/2017 11:54 AM, Scott Prentice wrote:

Hi...

I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.

User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically 
new and some still in plastic.


Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.

Cheers,
...scott


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Jay Maechtlen
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=
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Scott Prentice 
That could *almost* be a viable option if indexes had been replaced with 
decent linguistic search engines. But most search engines out there are 
absolute crap. The removal of indexes was purely a cost saving move and 
nothing about providing usable documentation.


A good index provided a huge benefit to both doc developer and the end 
user. But now, I suppose people are "lucky" to get any documentation at 
all. Set your sights low, and that's where it all ends up.


Cheers,
...scott


On 10/2/17 2:33 PM, Wroblewski, Victoria wrote:

This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have been 
quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker from 
another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search, people.

- V

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+victoria.wroblewski=necect@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of David Spreadbury
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:01 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
<framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

Scott,You might want to hang onto that 5.5 book. Once Adobe started creating 
the documentation the Index started going downhill, when compared to the 
original Frame issued books. The original Index was actual usefulI wouldn't 
part with mine unless I had to.
  


 On Monday, October 2, 2017 1:54 PM, Scott Prentice <s...@leximation.com> 
wrote:
  


  Hi...

I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.

User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically new and 
some still in plastic.

Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.

Cheers,
...scott


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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Robert Lauriston 
Does FrameMaker support search aliases? If not, indexes can be very
helpful to users who might use a different terms. E.g. if the docs say
"graph" but users think of it as "chart."

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Wroblewski, Victoria
 wrote:
> This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have 
> been quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker 
> from another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search, 
> people.
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread John Sgammato 
Generating an index is also a great way to spot inconsistencies in
terminology and usage, especially on docs written by a team.
And it enables the write to flag which mentions of a common term are
useful; search shows every mention.


On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Monique Semp 
wrote:

> This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have
>> been quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker
>> from another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search,
>> people.
>>
>
> Well, sure. If I know the exact word to look for, ^F will find it. But
> what if it's  concept that might be described multiple ways? Or something
> that I don't necessarily know I need but that jumps out when I scan the
> index? For a nice explanation of why an index is important, I recommend
> this from the American Society for Indexing website:
> https://www.asindexing.org/about-indexing/frequently-asked-
> questions/#FAQ1006.
>
> I certainly understand why we tech writers so rarely create indexes these
> days, but that doesn't mean it's the ideal situation. And most certainly ^F
> searching is an inadequate substitute for a good human-generated index.
>
> -Monique
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Steve Rickaby 
At 21:33 + 2/10/17, Wroblewski, Victoria wrote:

>This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have been 
>quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker from 
>another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search, people.

Hmmm. There's a debate to be had here. I'm with your former co-worker. A dumb 
search is not the same as an index, always assuming that the index has been 
done properly - i.e. there's been a sentient human in the loop.

A parallel is the lazy 'search' feature that is built into the web interfaces 
of web fora such as tech support sites for Microsoft and the like. Who has the 
time to wade through 847 hits to find the possible one relevant one? Or work 
out what the search grammar is, always assuming that there is one? I have for 
example totally given up trying to fox out technical issues with Parallels 
products for just this reason. Such things can actually drive customers away, 
and the opposite can hold true too.

And what Monique said too - she beat me to it.

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Monique Semp 
This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have 
been quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker 
from another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search, 
people.


Well, sure. If I know the exact word to look for, ^F will find it. But what 
if it's  concept that might be described multiple ways? Or something that I 
don't necessarily know I need but that jumps out when I scan the index? For 
a nice explanation of why an index is important, I recommend this from the 
American Society for Indexing website: 
https://www.asindexing.org/about-indexing/frequently-asked-questions/#FAQ1006.


I certainly understand why we tech writers so rarely create indexes these 
days, but that doesn't mean it's the ideal situation. And most certainly ^F 
searching is an inadequate substitute for a good human-generated index.


-Monique 


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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Wroblewski, Victoria 
This might be the reason we stopped actually doing index entries and have been 
quietly deleting index files from our books (I have a former co worker from 
another company who is in horror over this idea).  Use the search, people.

- V 

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+victoria.wroblewski=necect@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of David Spreadbury
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:01 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
<framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

Scott,You might want to hang onto that 5.5 book. Once Adobe started creating 
the documentation the Index started going downhill, when compared to the 
original Frame issued books. The original Index was actual usefulI wouldn't 
part with mine unless I had to.
 

On Monday, October 2, 2017 1:54 PM, Scott Prentice <s...@leximation.com> 
wrote:
 

 Hi...

I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.

User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically new and 
some still in plastic.

Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.

Cheers,
...scott


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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Pat Christenson 
With 5.5, Adobe decided they weren't going to supply full documentation, i.e., 
"teach you how to use the software."

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+pat.christenson=morningstar@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 3:15 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
<framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

Is the index in the 5.5 book really better than the one in the 6.0 book?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:01 PM, David Spreadbury <dspre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Scott,You might want to hang onto that 5.5 book. Once Adobe started creating 
> the documentation the Index started going downhill, when compared to the 
> original Frame issued books. The original Index was actual usefulI wouldn't 
> part with mine unless I had to.
>
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2017 1:54 PM, Scott Prentice <s...@leximation.com> 
> wrote:
>
>
>  Hi...
>
> I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.
>
> User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically 
> new and some still in plastic.
>
> Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Pat Christenson 
Agreed.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+pat.christenson=morningstar@lists.frameusers.com] 
On Behalf Of David Spreadbury
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 3:01 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
<framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

Scott,You might want to hang onto that 5.5 book. Once Adobe started creating 
the documentation the Index started going downhill, when compared to the 
original Frame issued books. The original Index was actual usefulI wouldn't 
part with mine unless I had to.
 

On Monday, October 2, 2017 1:54 PM, Scott Prentice <s...@leximation.com> 
wrote:
 

 Hi...

I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.

User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically new and 
some still in plastic.

Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.

Cheers,
...scott


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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Robert Lauriston 
Is the index in the 5.5 book really better than the one in the 6.0 book?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:01 PM, David Spreadbury  wrote:
>
> Scott,You might want to hang onto that 5.5 book. Once Adobe started creating 
> the documentation the Index started going downhill, when compared to the 
> original Frame issued books. The original Index was actual usefulI wouldn't 
> part with mine unless I had to.
>
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2017 1:54 PM, Scott Prentice  
> wrote:
>
>
>  Hi...
>
> I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.
>
> User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically
> new and some still in plastic.
>
> Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.
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Re: [Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread David Spreadbury 
Scott,You might want to hang onto that 5.5 book. Once Adobe started creating 
the documentation the Index started going downhill, when compared to the 
original Frame issued books. The original Index was actual usefulI wouldn't 
part with mine unless I had to.
 

On Monday, October 2, 2017 1:54 PM, Scott Prentice  
wrote:
 

 Hi...

I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.

User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically 
new and some still in plastic.

Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.

Cheers,
...scott


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[Framers] Old FrameMaker books?

2017-10-02 Thread Scott Prentice 

Hi...

I hate to pitch (recycle) this stuff if it's of any use to anyone.

User Guides for FM 7.0, FM 6.0, FM+SGML 6.0, and FM 5.5. All basically 
new and some still in plastic.


Contact me off list if you'd like any or all of these.

Cheers,
...scott


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