subject:"OT\: Corporate madness \- Adobe software to be subscription only"

How about you doing some reading and making a to-do list of the basic
features that FrameMaker users have been requesting for years?

An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
plug-ins that people are willing to pay for. How are book-level
variables, real templates, and external stylesheets still not part of
the base product? Why, despite the extensive UI changes in FM9, do we
still have tiny fixed-sized list boxes from the 1980s?

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Maxwell Hoffmann mhoff...@adobe.com wrote:
 Hi Robert,

 Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
 what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
 which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
 and FM11. Interesting reading.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Or broken by FM9 and added back in as new features in later releases.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Alan T Litchfield
a...@alphabyte.co.nz wrote:
 Maxwell, I think you are missing the point.

 His comment is in reference to value (however that might be measured) in the
 statement I thought was worth paying for, not the fact that features have
 been added and added and added, then reshuffled and more added.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-16 Thread Writer

An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
plug-ins that people are willing to pay for. 

Good point.

Nadine
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Adobe already controls piracy using activation. The only difference
with the subscription model is that your license has a timeout.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> The subscription model probably does help them deal with piracy. In that
> sense, they are urging a part of their user (but not customer) base to be
> more obedient.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

How about you doing some reading and making a to-do list of the basic
features that FrameMaker users have been requesting for years?

An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
plug-ins that people are willing to pay for. How are book-level
variables, real templates, and external stylesheets still not part of
the base product? Why, despite the extensive UI changes in FM9, do we
still have tiny fixed-sized list boxes from the 1980s?

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Maxwell Hoffmann  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
> what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
> which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
> and FM11. Interesting reading.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-16 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)

Or broken by FM9 and added back in as "new features" in later releases.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Alan T Litchfield
 wrote:
> Maxwell, I think you are missing the point.
>
> His comment is in reference to value (however that might be measured) in the
> statement "I thought was worth paying for", not the fact that features have
> been added and added and added, then reshuffled and more added.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-16 Thread Writer

>An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
>plug-ins that people are willing to pay for.?

Good point.

Nadine

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

> >An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the 
> >plug-ins that people are willing to pay for.
>
> Good point.
>
> Nadine

Indeed a very good point!

For me, book level variables are vital for my specifications  ... that is what 
BookVars from Leximation provides and has yet to be equaled in anything Adobe 
FrameMaker has.

Z

RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I would expect view ceasing support as something quite different than
turning off access to a license. We'll have to see how that plays out.

Craig 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harro de Jong
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:08 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Craig Ede wrote:

 Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does 
 mean that you have access to a given software package you can count on 
 (and not some changing version of it). Also, given that license, they 
 cannot revoke your ability of use the software in that state, and they 
 have certain obligations to make sure you are able to do that (i.e. they
can't simply turn of your license at their end on a whim).
 Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.

 Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear 
 more info on this topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still
available, and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a
download for a version that doesn't need activation. 

Harro de Jong

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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I would expect view ceasing support as something quite different than
turning off access to a license. We'll have to see how that plays out.

Craig 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harro de Jong
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:08 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Craig Ede wrote:

> Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does 
> mean that you have access to a given software package you can count on 
> (and not some changing version of it). Also, given that license, they 
> cannot revoke your ability of use the software in that state, and they 
> have certain obligations to make sure you are able to do that (i.e. they
can't simply turn of your license at their end on a whim).
> Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.
> 
> Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear 
> more info on this topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still
available, and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a
download for a version that doesn't need activation. 

Harro de Jong

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

The subscription model probably does help them deal with piracy. In that
sense, they are urging a part of their user (but not customer) base to be
more obedient.



Craig



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:08 PM
To: Alan T Litchfield
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com Forum
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only



... What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers for its
relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were more rational
and obedient, Adobe would be better off. 

 

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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Adobe provides a software license transfer form. Not applicable to academic
versions, however.
http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.h
tml
Craig

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Steve Johnson  wrote:
> ... you can't buy old versions of anything from anybody ever ...

Maybe licensed resellers have to return all old software when a new version
is released, but the FrameMaker 10 license allows you to sell your rights:

"You may ... permanently transfer all your rights to use the Software to
another individual or legal entity ... Adobe may require that you and the
receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement,
provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users
of the Software."
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-15 Thread Maxwell Hoffmann

Hi Robert,

Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
and FM11. Interesting reading.

Here is the link: http://adobe.ly/PAQS1u

___
Maxwell Hoffmann |? Product? Evangelist? |? Adobe? |? p. 503.336.5952? |? c. 
503.805.3719? |? mhoffman at adobe.com 
http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -? 
http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann? blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:31 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides, not on 
how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come up with 
anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,   wrote:
> The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
> to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.
___

Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Steve Rickaby

At 08:00 +1200 14/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

 The retail reseller channel does not exist anymore. It was that channel I 
 referred to when I said that they are too expensive to maintain and why Adobe 
 has gone direct to the market.

Ah, right - I understand. No, I don't remember anything like that here.

-- 
Steve
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Ed Nodland

I think my response is far from the mission of this forum but the statement
below just hooked me, it is also a nice diversion from the daily work to
read all the responses, and I bet our thoughts trickle back into Adobe.

A previous post said:

The problem with customers is that they cost money to do business with.

Am I taking this out of context, or should I have it turned into a banner
that hangs near the front door or cash register.

The cost of customer management has a negative effect on share value.

I think it depends on a companies mission statement and core values.  Are
they still passionate about the product or service, or is has it become
just about the money.  I realize both forces at play and balance is
required to sustain business.

A new business model is emerging.  I've read a lot of pros and cons on this
thread. Some will prove to be real, adjustments will be made, business will
grow, decline or maybe fail.  In the perspective of things unfolding from
the creativity of the cosmos, I see this as another iteration towards cloud
computing, but rather than stepping to total cloud computing like Google
Docs/Drive where we don't have the software at all, it's just cloud
software delivery for now.  It is a systemic result that emerges from
individuals trying to make isolated business decisions based on, or
building on, ideas they see elsewhere.

I'm actually more interested in watching the open source concept grow into
an entirely new economy where the passion is about the product and the
money comes from some other offshoot, or like someone wrote about Oxygen
where the academic license allows some small scale usage while the money
comes in from other larger sources.  I think the economy is going to change
in the next 50 years in ways we can't even image due to the connectiveness
of the internet and access to free and low cost entertainment, education,
information, apps, and services.

I bet the large companies that highly control software versions like a
large aerospace firm I used to work for, medical device companies that
Craig mentioned, or other safety critical product companies, are going to
be busy figuring out how to work in this new model.

Ed
You can't change the waves, but you can pick which wave you want to ride.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Robert Lauriston

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Harro de Jong
harro.dej...@triviewgroup.com wrote:
 The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may 
 have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the 
 upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your 
 license once a new version is available.

There's nothing in the FM10 or earlier licensing agreements I've read
that would allow Adobe to revoke your right to use the software so
long as you observe the restrictions of the agreement.

The clause you're quoting means that If the currently installed and
licensed version is an update or upgrade, Adobe has no obligation to
provide the support for the earlier versions. For example, if you
upgrade to FM11 while you still have an active support contract for
FM10, the support contract is shifted to FM11, and they no longer have
any obligation to provide any support for FM10.

5. Updates. If the Software is an upgrade or update to a previous
version of Adobe software, you must possess a valid license to such
previous version in order to use such upgrade or update. After you
install such update or upgrade, you may continue to use any such
previous version in accordance with its end-user license agreement
only if (a) the upgrade or update and all previous versions are
installed on the same Computer, (b) the previous versions or copies
thereof are not transferred to another party or device unless all
copies of the update or upgrade are also transferred to such party or
device, and (c) you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may have to
support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update. No other use of the previous version(s) is
permitted after installation of an update or upgrade.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Robert Lauriston

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Steve Johnson chinask...@gmail.com wrote:
 ... you can't buy old versions of anything from anybody ever ...

Maybe licensed resellers have to return all old software when a new
version is released, but the FrameMaker 10 license allows you to sell
your rights:

You may ... permanently transfer all your rights to use the Software
to another individual or legal entity ... Adobe may require that you
and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this
agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and
register as end-users of the Software.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Robert Lauriston

Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides,
not on how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come
up with anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,  dave.st...@gdc4s.com wrote:
 The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
 to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Alan T Litchfield

Thanks. Those are the corporate resellers I was referring to previously. 
The retail reseller channel does not exist anymore. It was that channel 
I referred to when I said that they are too expensive to maintain and 
why Adobe has gone direct to the market.

The added value is worked out in terms of training and specific industry 
support.

Alan

On 13/05/13 9:39 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 07:11 +1200 13/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:
>
>> These are resellers as in, computer shops selling boxes and stuff? You know, 
>> retail channel?
>
> Not shops as such: my understanding is that they sell Adobe products and also 
> training. I have dealt with two recently: Certitec and Phoenix Software. It 
> was Adobe UK that referred me to the latter.
>

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-14 Thread Steve Rickaby

At 08:00 +1200 14/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

> The retail reseller channel does not exist anymore. It was that channel I 
> referred to when I said that they are too expensive to maintain and why Adobe 
> has gone direct to the market.

Ah, right - I understand. No, I don't remember anything like that here.

-- 
Steve

Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Steve Rickaby

At 07:11 +1200 13/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

These are resellers as in, computer shops selling boxes and stuff? You know, 
retail channel?

Not shops as such: my understanding is that they sell Adobe products and also 
training. I have dealt with two recently: Certitec and Phoenix Software. It was 
Adobe UK that referred me to the latter.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Steve Johnson

Adobe introduces subscription-based licensing. So many of its users find it
an outstanding value that over time, most of them license software by
subscription. Adobe is rewarded for being innovative and Adobe serves its
customers better. Everybody wins.

Adobe ends its relationship with resellers over time so that, eventually,
all users license software directly from Adobe .. either subscription or
download or disks (at an extra cost).

This is also a success story for Adobe; it's rewarded because it's
providing a better service for its customers and at the same time, it's
doing better for its shareholders. That's how capitalism is supposed to
work.

Choice is the entire issue. Everyone who made the case for subscription has
a great point. It's not what I choose but I have no reason to tell you
subscription is bad for *you*.

Choice ... it's what humans do all the time. Adobe has removed the choice
from some percentage of its users and there's no reason for it. Maybe Adobe
has gotten to the point where it no longer believes customers make Adobe
successful. Maybe they think they're so big they don't have to think about
customers anymore; we, Adobe, make YOU successful.

I don't know; fact is, they're doing their customers a disservice by
limiting our choice for how we license software from them. Subscriptions
are great, just give me back what I want and I'm perfectly content.


On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 11:42 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nzwrote:

 Funny how people put words between the lines...

 On 12/05/13 12:08 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:

 That's some interesting points and some of them are probably partially
 true. What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers
 for its relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were
 more rational and obedient, Adobe would be better off.


 I never said Adobe blames anyone for anything. I am saying that Adobe
 has shareholders and share values are important. Customers are important
 too, but they are important because they improve share value (more
 customers, better share values). However, customers are only valuable when
 they are encouraged to part with their money, so to have customers pay more
 frequently is better than when they don't.

 The problem with cusomters is that they cost money to do business with.
 The cost of customer management has a negative effect on share value. So,
 cut the cost of doing business and improve share value. The subscription
 model Adobe are rolling out does just that.

 Obedience has nothing to do with it. Don't make it a human factor.
 Humanity has nothing to do with this. This is economics.


 You're side of the mark about resellers. Adobe locks down pricing and
 availability of its software; you can't buy old versions of anything
 from anybody ever and you can't get more than a few dollars of discount
 from anybody. Having other people sell for you is generally a good
 thing.


 Ignoring the bit about buying old versions, as a former reseller, I can
 quite confidently tell you that you are wrong.

 Resellers are expensive to support and no longer bring real value to the
 product. With the advance of Internet and peer support of products, Adobe
 had long since removed the reseller from the channel. The subscription
 model merely removes the last part of the retail chain. Sure, there remain
 some resellers but they are concerned with large customers who need
 specific licensing requirements. These are the ones that for Adobe to do
 itself, are uneconomic.

  But again, in the Adobe way of looking at things, what's good for
  the customer is bad because customers always do the wrong thing.

 Sorry, makes no sense. Customers (those that pay for stuff) always do the
 right thing when they are relieved of their money.


 Adobe is making this change in anticipation of other changes yet to be
 announced.


 Meh. It's just another way to do business. I have worked out that the
 subscription model will cost me about twice much to keep getting access to
 what I have now. It will disadvantage me in the future because I have to
 continue to pay for something I do not have to continue to pay for now.

  If you love the subscription model you'll love whatever else
 they have in mind for you. It's a good time to be an apologist.


 If I too were a fanboy, then maybe I too would be all smoochy about it. I
 have been in this business for too many years. I do not like it that this
 company (or any other) decide that I have not been paying enough for what I
 have been using and make it so that I pay more. I do not like it that I
 have to have the corporation in my head every month come subscription time.

 On the other hand, it is good time to be a user of LaTeX, et al.

 I am keen to see what Jeremy has to offer.

 Alan




 On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nz
 mailto:a...@alphabyte.co.nz wrote:


 On 12/05/2013, at 6:36 AM, Steve Johnson wrote:

 Almost everyone

Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)

One benefit of the subscription model is that a company can focus 100%
on the current and next releases. That should significantly reduce
support costs, eliminates the cost of providing and distributing patch
releases for old versions, and reduces various other costs due to
reduced complexity.

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Steve Johnson chinask...@gmail.com wrote:
 Of what benefit to Adobe is depriving us to choose what we want?
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Steve Johnson

That's some interesting points and some of them are probably partially
true. What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers for
its relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were more
rational and obedient, Adobe would be better off.

You're side of the mark about resellers. Adobe locks down pricing and
availability of its software; you can't buy old versions of anything from
anybody ever and you can't get more than a few dollars of discount from
anybody. Having other people sell for you is generally a good thing. But
again, in the Adobe way of looking at things, what's good for the customer
is bad because customers always do the wrong thing.

Adobe is making this change in anticipation of other changes yet to be
announced. If you love the subscription model you'll love whatever else
they have in mind for you. It's a good time to be an apologist.

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nzwrote:

On 12/05/2013, at 6:36 AM, Steve Johnson wrote:

Almost everyone keeps ignoring the question of CHOICE. There's no doubt
you can make a case for subscription but you can also make a case for
getting the disks or downloading the software.

Of what benefit to Adobe is depriving us to choose what we want? Why is
mailing me disks for additional cost or providing a download bad for Adobe?
Clearly it isn't. There is something else going on.

Certainly Adobe will jack up the price of subscription. They might have
other things in mind also but the point is, why make everyone adopt a model
that doesn't benefit everyone? What's in it for Adobe? That's what I'd like
to know.

Decreased cost for license management, increased cash flow through
subscriptions, constant income stream as opposed to periodic peaks related
to new product releases, increased profit margins, better share value,
regional price control and management (we typically pay 3x the US cost for
the same software), better release management (no more pesky resellers and
middlemen), better profits from cutting out middlemen and resellers,
therefore even better share value, more accurate profit forecasts at
shorter time intervals, therefore even better share value,...

Alan

--
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland, 1140
New Zealand
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Harro de Jong

Craig Ede wrote:


 Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does mean 
 that
 you have access to a given software package you can count on (and not some
 changing version of it). Also, given that license, they cannot revoke your 
 ability of
 use the software in that state, and they have certain obligations to make 
 sure you
 are able to do that (i.e. they can't simply turn of your license at their end 
 on a whim).
 Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.
 
 Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear more info 
 on this
 topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may 
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the 
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your 
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still available, 
and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a download for 
a version that doesn't need activation. 


Harro de Jong
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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Dave.Stamm

2013-05-13-01T20:20Z

Nadine -

Nadine, I certainly wouldn't swing the bat if you were within range.  On the 
other hand, having served in the US Army Infantry, I'd call it bursting 
radius.

Well, if you'll accept an American source, please see

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism and


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free+market?show=0t=1368475416 .

So, I make the answer to your question as,  . . . an economic system 
characterized by . . . distribution of goods that are determined mainly by 
competition in a free market.

Also, please consider the following.  It is a very-close paraphrasing of a 
statement by a professor of accounting is his class many years ago.

The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ to 
produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.  The purpose of 
business is to _make_money_.

And, if you'll allow an allusion from the Bible:  The _love_ of money is the 
root of all evil.  (emphasis added because it is often misquoted as Money is 
the root of all evil.  DAS)

*Being concerned that Nadine and others might be within bursting radius, puts 
figurative safety pin back into figurative hand grenade.*

Regards,
Dave Stamm
Information Engineer

-Original Message-
From: Writer [mailto:generic...@yahoo.ca] 
Sent: 2013-05-13-Monday 15:56
To: Stamm, David-P45904; dr_go...@pobox.com; a...@alphabyte.co.nz
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

“That's how capitalism is supposed to work.”

I don't mean to nitpick, but is that capitalism or free market?

*steps back out of Dave's swing range*

=D

Nadine
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Writer

Now, Dave, that's not what Google told me when I did a 2 second search on 
capitalism vs free market.

*figuratively checks to make sure the figurative pin is back in the figurative 
grenade, then goes back to earning money to support her smart assery*

Nadine
 

 Nadine -
 
 Nadine, I certainly wouldn't swing the bat if you were within range.  On the 
 other hand, having served in the US Army Infantry, I'd call it 
 bursting radius.
 
 Well, if you'll accept an American source, please see
 
     http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism and
 
     
 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free+market?show=0t=1368475416 .
 
 So, I make the answer to your question as,  . . . an economic system 
 characterized by . . . distribution of goods that are determined mainly by 
 competition in a free market.
 
 Also, please consider the following.  It is a very-close paraphrasing of a 
 statement by a professor of accounting is his class many years ago.
 
 The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
 to 
 produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.  The purpose of 
 business is to _make_money_.
 
 And, if you'll allow an allusion from the Bible:  The _love_ of money 
 is the root of all evil.  (emphasis added because it is often misquoted as 
 Money is the root of all evil.  DAS)
 
 *Being concerned that Nadine and others might be within bursting radius, puts 
 figurative safety pin back into figurative hand grenade.*
 
 Regards,
 Dave Stamm
 Information Engineer

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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

 The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
 to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.  The purpose 
 of business is to _make_money_.

I'd go beyond the above a little bit more. :) In my blog on this topic (at this 
link: http://www.aeris.com/thinking-about-deploying-an-m2m-application/), I 
talked about why somebody would deploy an M2M application (which is what my 
company does). It is never a technical decision ... it is a business decision.

So, I'd rather say: The purpose of a business is to make a _profit_.

And to keep on doing better ... when revenue rises, costs should rise slower. 
If the revenue drops, the costs should drop faster. Both ways lead to better 
profitability, although a drop in revenue is often seen as a negative!

And there are direct, _and_ indirect, thing that affect the increase in revenue 
or drop in costs, or both.

Z
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Alan T Litchfield

Hi Steve,

These are resellers as in, computer shops selling boxes and stuff? You 
know, retail channel?

Thanks
Alan

On 12/05/13 11:09 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 16:42 +1200 12/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:
>
>> Resellers are expensive to support and no longer bring real value to the 
>> product. With the advance of Internet and peer support of products, Adobe 
>> had long since removed the reseller from the channel.
>
> Without responding to the many other issues, I just comment that we seem to 
> have successful Adobe resellers here in the UK.
>

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Steve Rickaby

At 07:11 +1200 13/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

>These are resellers as in, computer shops selling boxes and stuff? You know, 
>retail channel?

Not shops as such: my understanding is that they sell Adobe products and also 
training. I have dealt with two recently: Certitec and Phoenix Software. It was 
Adobe UK that referred me to the latter.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Harro de Jong

Craig Ede wrote:

> Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does mean 
> that
> you have access to a given software package you can count on (and not some
> changing version of it). Also, given that license, they cannot revoke your 
> ability of
> use the software in that state, and they have certain obligations to make 
> sure you
> are able to do that (i.e. they can't simply turn of your license at their end 
> on a whim).
> Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.
> 
> Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear more info 
> on this
> topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may 
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the 
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your 
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still available, 
and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a download for 
a version that doesn't need activation. 

Harro de Jong

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread dave.st...@gdc4s.com

2013-05-13-01T19:50Z

"Everybody wins . . .." as far as Adobe Systems Incorporated and some
others might perceive it.  From my perspective - and, perhaps, my
employer's perspective - this will _not_ be a "win" for us.

Perhaps Adobe has forgotten that we, the customers, also must make
business decisions.

I say that we "vote" with our Deutsche Marks, dollars, francs, and
pounds and let Adobe see how much we want - let alone need - the
Creative Cloud.

"That's how capitalism is supposed to work."

Dave Stamm

Information Engineer

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson
Sent: 2013-05-12-Sunday 09:52
To: Alan T Litchfield
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com Forum
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription
only

Adobe introduces subscription-based licensing. So many of its users find
it an outstanding value that over time, most of them license software by
subscription. Adobe is rewarded for being innovative and Adobe serves
its customers better. Everybody wins.

Adobe ends its relationship with resellers over time so that,
eventually, all users license software directly from Adobe .. either
subscription or download or disks (at an extra cost).

This is also a success story for Adobe; it's rewarded because it's
providing a better service for its customers and at the same time, it's
doing better for its shareholders. That's how capitalism is supposed to
work.

Choice is the entire issue. Everyone who made the case for subscription
has a great point. It's not what I choose but I have no reason to tell
you subscription is bad for *you*.

Choice ... it's what humans do all the time. Adobe has removed the
choice from some percentage of its users and there's no reason for it.
Maybe Adobe has gotten to the point where it no longer believes
customers make Adobe successful. Maybe they think they're so big they
don't have to think about customers anymore; we, Adobe, make YOU
successful.

I don't know; fact is, they're doing their customers a disservice by
limiting our choice for how we license software from them. Subscriptions
are great, just give me back what I want and I'm perfectly content.

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 11:42 PM, Alan T Litchfield
 wrote:

Funny how people put words between the lines...

On 12/05/13 12:08 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:

That's some interesting points and some of them are probably partially
true. What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers
for its relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were
more rational and obedient, Adobe would be better off.

I never said Adobe "blames" anyone for anything. I am saying that Adobe
has shareholders and share values are important. Customers are important
too, but they are important because they improve share value (more
customers, better share values). However, customers are only valuable
when they are encouraged to part with their money, so to have customers
pay more frequently is better than when they don't.

The problem with cusomters is that they cost money to do business with.
The cost of customer management has a negative effect on share value.
So, cut the cost of doing business and improve share value. The
subscription model Adobe are rolling out does just that.

Obedience has nothing to do with it. Don't make it a human factor.
Humanity has nothing to do with this. This is economics.

You're side of the mark about resellers. Adobe locks down pricing and
availability of its software; you can't buy old versions of anything
from anybody ever and you can't get more than a few dollars of discount
from anybody. Having other people sell for you is generally a good
thing.

Ignoring the bit about buying old versions, as a former reseller, I can
quite confidently tell you that you are wrong.

Resellers are expensive to support and no longer bring real value to the
product. With the advance of Internet and peer support of products,
Adobe had long since removed the reseller from the channel. The
subscription model merely removes the last part of the retail chain.
Sure, there remain some resellers but they are concerned with large
customers who need specific licensing requirements. These are the ones
that for Adobe to do itself, are uneconomic.

> But again, in the Adobe way of looking at things, what's good for
> the customer is bad because customers always do the wrong thing.

Sorry, makes no sense. Customers (those that pay for stuff) always do
the right thing when they are relieved of their money.

Adobe is making this change in anticipation of other changes yet to be
announced.

Meh. It's just another way to do business. I have worked out that the
subscription model will cost me about twice much to keep getting access
to what I have now. It will disadvantage me in the future because I have
to continue to pay for something I do not have to cont

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Writer

>?That's how capitalism is supposed to work.?

I don't mean to nitpick, but is that capitalism or free market?

*steps back out of Dave's swing range*

=D

Nadine

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread dave.st...@gdc4s.com

2013-05-13-01T20:20Z

Nadine -

Nadine, I certainly wouldn't swing the bat if you were within range.  On the 
other hand, having served in the US Army Infantry, I'd call it "bursting 
radius."

Well, if you'll accept an American source, please see

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism and


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free+market?show=0=1368475416 .

So, I make the answer to your question as, "?.?.?.?an economic system 
characterized by?.?.?.?distribution of goods that are determined mainly by 
competition in a free market."

Also, please consider the following.  It is a very-close paraphrasing of a 
statement by a professor of accounting is his class many years ago.

The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ to 
produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.  The purpose of 
business is to _make_money_.

And, if you'll allow an allusion from the Bible:  "The _love_ of money is the 
root of all evil."  (emphasis added because it is often misquoted as "Money is 
the root of all evil."  DAS)

*Being concerned that Nadine and others might be within bursting radius, puts 
figurative safety pin back into figurative hand grenade.*

Regards,
Dave Stamm
Information Engineer

-Original Message-
From: Writer [mailto:generic...@yahoo.ca] 
Sent: 2013-05-13-Monday 15:56
To: Stamm, David-P45904; dr_gonzo at pobox.com; alan at alphabyte.co.nz
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

>?That's how capitalism is supposed to work.?

I don't mean to nitpick, but is that capitalism or free market?

*steps back out of Dave's swing range*

=D

Nadine

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Writer

Now, Dave, that's not what Google told me when I did a 2 second search on 
"capitalism vs free market".

*figuratively checks to make sure the figurative pin is back in the figurative 
grenade, then goes back to earning money to support her smart assery*

Nadine
?

> Nadine -
> 
> Nadine, I certainly wouldn't swing the bat if you were within range.? On the 
> other hand, having served in the US Army Infantry, I'd call it 
> "bursting radius."
> 
> Well, if you'll accept an American source, please see
> 
> ??? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism and
> 
> ??? 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free+market?show=0=1368475416 .
> 
> So, I make the answer to your question as, "?.?.?.?an economic system 
> characterized by?.?.?.?distribution of goods that are determined mainly by 
> competition in a free market."
> 
> Also, please consider the following.? It is a very-close paraphrasing of a 
> statement by a professor of accounting is his class many years ago.
> 
> The purpose of business is to make money.? The purpose of business is _not_ 
> to 
> produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.? The purpose of 
> business is to _make_money_.
> 
> And, if you'll allow an allusion from the Bible:? "The _love_ of money 
> is the root of all evil."? (emphasis added because it is often misquoted as 
> "Money is the root of all evil."? DAS)
> 
> *Being concerned that Nadine and others might be within bursting radius, puts 
> figurative safety pin back into figurative hand grenade.*
> 
> Regards,
> Dave Stamm
> Information Engineer

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)

> The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
> to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.  The purpose 
> of business is to _make_money_.

I'd go beyond the above a little bit more. :) In my blog on this topic (at this 
link: http://www.aeris.com/thinking-about-deploying-an-m2m-application/), I 
talked about why somebody would deploy an M2M application (which is what my 
company does). It is never a technical decision ... it is a business decision.

So, I'd rather say: "The purpose of a business is to make a _profit_."

And to keep on doing better ... when revenue rises, costs should rise slower. 
If the revenue drops, the costs should drop faster. Both ways lead to better 
profitability, although a drop in revenue is often seen as a negative!

And there are direct, _and_ indirect, thing that affect the increase in revenue 
or drop in costs, or both.

Z

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13 Thread Ed Nodland

I think my response is far from the mission of this forum but the statement
below just hooked me, it is also a nice diversion from the daily work to
read all the responses, and I bet our thoughts trickle back into Adobe.

A previous post said:

"The problem with customers is that they cost money to do business with."

Am I taking this out of context, or should I have it turned into a banner
that hangs near the front door or cash register.

"The cost of customer management has a negative effect on share value."

I think it depends on a companies mission statement and core values.  Are
they still passionate about the product or service, or is has it become
just about the money.  I realize both forces at play and balance is
required to sustain business.

A new business model is emerging.  I've read a lot of pros and cons on this
thread. Some will prove to be real, adjustments will be made, business will
grow, decline or maybe fail.  In the perspective of things unfolding from
the creativity of the cosmos, I see this as another iteration towards cloud
computing, but rather than stepping to total cloud computing like Google
Docs/Drive where we don't have the software at all, it's just cloud
"software delivery" for now.  It is a systemic result that emerges from
individuals trying to make isolated business decisions based on, or
building on, ideas they see elsewhere.

I'm actually more interested in watching the open source concept grow into
an entirely new economy where the passion is about the product and the
money comes from some other offshoot, or like someone wrote about Oxygen
where the academic license allows some small scale usage while the money
comes in from other larger sources.  I think the economy is going to change
in the next 50 years in ways we can't even image due to the connectiveness
of the internet and access to free and low cost entertainment, education,
information, apps, and services.

I bet the large companies that highly control software versions like a
large aerospace firm I used to work for, medical device companies that
Craig mentioned, or other safety critical product companies, are going to
be busy figuring out how to work in this new model.

Ed
You can't change the waves, but you can pick which wave you want to ride.
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Harro de Jong
 wrote:
> The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may 
> have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the 
> upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your 
> license once a new version is available.

There's nothing in the FM10 or earlier licensing agreements I've read
that would allow Adobe to revoke your right to use the software so
long as you observe the restrictions of the agreement.

The clause you're quoting means that If the currently installed and
licensed version is an update or upgrade, Adobe has no obligation to
provide the support for the earlier versions. For example, if you
upgrade to FM11 while you still have an active support contract for
FM10, the support contract is shifted to FM11, and they no longer have
any obligation to provide any support for FM10.

"5. Updates. If the Software is an upgrade or update to a previous
version of Adobe software, you must possess a valid license to such
previous version in order to use such upgrade or update. After you
install such update or upgrade, you may continue to use any such
previous version in accordance with its end-user license agreement
only if (a) the upgrade or update and all previous versions are
installed on the same Computer, (b) the previous versions or copies
thereof are not transferred to another party or device unless all
copies of the update or upgrade are also transferred to such party or
device, and (c) you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may have to
support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update. No other use of the previous version(s) is
permitted after installation of an update or upgrade."

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Steve Johnson  wrote:
> ... you can't buy old versions of anything from anybody ever ...

Maybe licensed resellers have to return all old software when a new
version is released, but the FrameMaker 10 license allows you to sell
your rights:

"You may ... permanently transfer all your rights to use the Software
to another individual or legal entity ... Adobe may require that you
and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this
agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and
register as end-users of the Software."

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only