RE: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Scott wrote: However, why didn't Microsoft make it easy on everyone in the first place, since on inception of their OS printing was the major output? It's not my business to defend or accuse Microsoft or Adobe in any way. My business is to speak out loud that CMYK and SPOT color support in FrameMaker, even in 9.X, is undeniably poor -- in particular with composite output. Scott wrote: Why in the past 20 years didn't they correct their arrogant assumption that RGB was the only color output scheme that was needed? MS have provided means that make it fairly easy to accommodate special output needs, and have actually been doing so since 32-bit Windows was born. To begin with the documentation about it was extremely poor, but since Windows 2000 the printer escapes PASSTHROUGH and POSTSCRIPT_PASSTHROUGH have been quite well-documented (a good place to start reading about this would be http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd162843(VS.85).aspx). Since using these escapes is not at all comparable to rocket science one can only wonder why these are not adopted into the FrameMaker output kernel. Remember that FrameMaker actually CAN read CMYK bitmaps *and* output them correctly when creating separations. Hence, FrameMaker already contain code that goes beyond Windows GDI capabilities and proactively makes decisions about which color plate to send. Why not implement support for composite output as well? Scott wrote: A hack is a hack. Not an acceptable way to do business. How do you think the Generate Acrobat Data functionality works when you print to PDF? A qualified guess is that FrameMaker injects PDFMark PostScript code into the output stream. Implementing full support for CMYK bitmaps wouldn't require much -- as I see it. For example, FrameMaker could write a temporary file in EPS format for each CMYK bitmap (e.g. ASCII85 encoded for TIFF images and DTC encoded for JPG images), and then use the already existing EPS injection method to inject this temporary file as a substitute for the CMYK-RGB ruined version. CMYK bitmaps wrapped into EPS format are already fully supported by FrameMaker, hacks or not :-) Again, why not implement support for it when it could be done quite easily? One argument could be that implementing support for CMYK and SPOT colors applied to text and vector elements would require a substantial effort. And that's may be why things are as they are. The argument may also appear reasonable as a whole. But I don't agree with this argument when it comes to CMYK bitmaps. As of today FrameMaker directly *spoil* CMYK bitmaps upon composite output in a very destructive way, and that doesn't count to the same extend for text and vector elements, which actually can be fixed downstream. The CMYK bitmaps can *not* be fixed downstream, and that makes the *huge* difference. Hence, I still find it highly unacceptable that FrameMaker didn't implement support for composite outputting CMYK bitmaps many, many years ago -- Windows GDI or not. The technology to implement it is already largely available in the FrameMaker source code !!! Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Hmmm ... For some reason the link I provided was broken. Try this instead: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd162843(VS.85).aspx which essentially is the same. If that doesn't work for you please try Google and paste the following line in the input box: Printer Escape Functions MSDN The topmost result should bring you to the correct article at MSDN. /Jacob ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Scott wrote: < However, why didn't Microsoft make it easy on everyone in the first place, since on inception of their OS printing was the major output? > It's not my business to defend or accuse Microsoft or Adobe in any way. My business is to speak out loud that CMYK and SPOT color support in FrameMaker, even in 9.X, is undeniably poor -- in particular with composite output. Scott wrote: < Why in the past 20 years didn't they correct their arrogant assumption that RGB was the only color output scheme that was needed? > MS have provided means that make it fairly easy to accommodate special output needs, and have actually been doing so since 32-bit Windows was born. To begin with the documentation about it was extremely poor, but since Windows 2000 the printer escapes PASSTHROUGH and POSTSCRIPT_PASSTHROUGH have been quite well-documented (a good place to start reading about this would be http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd162843(VS.85).aspx). Since using these escapes is not at all comparable to rocket science one can only wonder why these are not adopted into the FrameMaker output kernel. Remember that FrameMaker actually CAN read CMYK bitmaps *and* output them correctly when creating separations. Hence, FrameMaker already contain code that goes beyond Windows GDI capabilities and proactively makes decisions about which color plate to send. Why not implement support for composite output as well? Scott wrote: < A hack is a hack. Not an acceptable way to do business. > How do you think the "Generate Acrobat Data" functionality works when you print to PDF? A qualified guess is that FrameMaker injects PDFMark PostScript code into the output stream. Implementing full support for CMYK bitmaps wouldn't require much -- as I see it. For example, FrameMaker could write a temporary file in EPS format for each CMYK bitmap (e.g. ASCII85 encoded for TIFF images and DTC encoded for JPG images), and then use the already existing EPS injection method to inject this temporary file as a substitute for the CMYK->RGB ruined version. CMYK bitmaps wrapped into EPS format are already fully supported by FrameMaker, hacks or not :-) Again, why not implement support for it when it could be done quite easily? One argument could be that implementing support for CMYK and SPOT colors applied to text and vector elements would require a substantial effort. And that's may be why things are as they are. The argument may also appear reasonable as a whole. But I don't agree with this argument when it comes to CMYK bitmaps. As of today FrameMaker directly *spoil* CMYK bitmaps upon composite output in a very destructive way, and that doesn't count to the same extend for text and vector elements, which actually can be fixed downstream. The CMYK bitmaps can *not* be fixed downstream, and that makes the *huge* difference. Hence, I still find it highly unacceptable that FrameMaker didn't implement support for composite outputting CMYK bitmaps many, many years ago -- Windows GDI or not. The technology to implement it is already largely available in the FrameMaker source code !!! Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Sch?ffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis All? 22, Raml?se DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: js at grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Hmmm ... For some reason the link I provided was broken. Try this instead: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd162843(VS.85).aspx which essentially is the same. If that doesn't work for you please try Google and paste the following line in the input box: "Printer Escape Functions" MSDN The topmost result should bring you to the correct article at MSDN. /Jacob
FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Hi group Has anyone seen the following problem: Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB selected, the PDF gets generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB not selected, the PDF cannot be generated and the following error message appears maker: Unknown exception caught in EnumerateFonts routine. Please Restart your machine. Thanks. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Unfortunately the Save As PDF function in FM9 has some problems with the font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things happen. Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to PDF does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want Convert CMYK Colors to RGB turned on you might print to PDF instead. Printing is *much* faster than Save As PDF (which is hopelessly slow). Btw, the Save As PDF function implements PostScript more or less as of the FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. So, there IS a huge difference between the two to PDF routes (this is new in FM9). Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] På vegne af Yves Barbion Sendt: 9. december 2009 13:39 Til: framers@lists.frameusers.com Emne: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected Hi group Has anyone seen the following problem: Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB selected, the PDF gets generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB not selected, the PDF cannot be generated and the following error message appears maker: Unknown exception caught in EnumerateFonts routine. Please Restart your machine. Thanks. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as j...@grafikhuset.dk. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/js%40grafikhuset.dk Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Again we are hoist upon Microsofts petard. Microsoft has NEVER been able to print CMYK. Only Linux and the Mac platform have handled it well. Scott On 12/9/09 9:33 AM, Jacob Schäffer wrote: Unfortunately the Save As PDF function in FM9 has some problems with the font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things happen. Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to PDF does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want Convert CMYK Colors to RGB turned on you might print to PDF instead. Printing is *much* faster than Save As PDF (which is hopelessly slow). Btw, the Save As PDF function implements PostScript more or less as of the FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. So, there IS a huge difference between the two to PDF routes (this is new in FM9). Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Hi Jacob Thank you for your reply. I don't want to select the Convert CMYK Colors to RGB option. In fact, I never want to convert colors, because I think that converting colors gives unpredictable results and is therefore a bad idea. Remapping colors, using tools like Enfocus PitStop, works better. So, if I use CMYK in Frame, I want CMYK in my PDFs as well, but that's a different (Windows GDI) issue. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Jacob Schäffer j...@grafikhuset.dk wrote: Unfortunately the Save As PDF function in FM9 has some problems with the font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things happen. Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to PDF does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want Convert CMYK Colors to RGB turned on you might print to PDF instead. Printing is *much* faster than Save As PDF (which is hopelessly slow). Btw, the Save As PDF function implements PostScript more or less as of the FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. So, there IS a huge difference between the two to PDF routes (this is new in FM9). Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] På vegne af Yves Barbion Sendt: 9. december 2009 13:39 Til: framers@lists.frameusers.com Emne: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected Hi group Has anyone seen the following problem: Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB selected, the PDF gets generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB not selected, the PDF cannot be generated and the following error message appears maker: Unknown exception caught in EnumerateFonts routine. Please Restart your machine. Thanks. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as j...@grafikhuset.dk. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/js%40grafikhuset.dk Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Yves Barbion wrote: I don't want to select the Convert CMYK Colors to RGB option. In fact, I never want to convert colors ... I agree. However, remapping with what-ever tool is also lossy, but NOT as lossy as the Windows FrameMaker generated CMYK - RGB conversion (which generates highly oversaturated images with the CMYK-K component nearly evenly added to a canonical CMY - RGB conversion). This conversion IS performed by FrameMaker, NOT Windows GDI. Windows GDI does NOT support CMYK as input, *but* it can output CMYK according to ICC profiles as long as the input is RGB. That's not common knowledge, but is a fact afterall. Windows GDI also fully support custom data injection, which FrameMaker *does* support for EPS streams, but *doesn't* for CMYK bitmap streams. Loading CMYK bitmaps in Windows GDI requires a hack anyway, so why not make this hack complete? The omission in this regard articulate in my view lazy programming, but I'm sure Adobe has a reason for not finalizing this CMYK hack. Instead of implementing generic routines that inject valid CMYK and SPOT color data into *ALL* output formats that support those color spaces, Adobe has chosen to implement only a single route with (partly) support for this, namely the Save As PDF route. You can NOT *print* CMYK or SPOT colours to a CMYK device from FrameMaker, so you can NOT judge colors correctly on printed output. You have to Save As PDF and then print the resulting PDF to do so. Scott wrote: Again we are hoist upon Microsofts petard. Microsoft has NEVER been able to print CMYK. Only Linux and the Mac platform have handled it well. Not true. Windoes GDI can output CMYK colour if you activate Colour Management. Windows GDI allow anyone to pass on custom data streams not supported by Windows GDI. Hence, if you write an application that need support for CMYK and SPOT colours, it up to you to inject such custom data. In this case it's a deliberate Adobe-choice NOT to make the required changes in FrameMaker, and Windows GDI is not to blame anymore. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] På vegne af Yves Barbion Sendt: 9. december 2009 17:24 Til: framers@lists.frameusers.com Emne: Re: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected Hi Jacob Thank you for your reply. I don't want to select the Convert CMYK Colors to RGB option. In fact, I never want to convert colors, because I think that converting colors gives unpredictable results and is therefore a bad idea. Remapping colors, using tools like Enfocus PitStop, works better. So, if I use CMYK in Frame, I want CMYK in my PDFs as well, but that's a different (Windows GDI) issue. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Jacob Schäffer j...@grafikhuset.dk wrote: Unfortunately the Save As PDF function in FM9 has some problems with the font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things happen. Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to PDF does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want Convert CMYK Colors to RGB turned on you might print to PDF instead. Printing is *much* faster than Save As PDF (which is hopelessly slow). Btw, the Save As PDF function implements PostScript more or less as of the FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. So, there IS a huge difference between the two to PDF routes (this is new in FM9). Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] På vegne af Yves Barbion Sendt: 9. december 2009 13:39 Til: framers@lists.frameusers.com Emne: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected Hi group Has anyone seen the following problem: Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB selected, the PDF gets generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). - With the option Convert CMYK Colors to RGB not selected, the PDF cannot be generated and the following error message appears
Re: FM9: Unable to create PDF when Convert CMYK Colors to RGB is not selected
Technically true, Jacob. However, why didn't Microsoft make it easy on everyone in the first place, since on inception of their OS printing was the major output? Why in the past 20 years didn't they correct their arrogant assumption that RGB was the only color output scheme that was needed? A hack is a hack. Not an acceptable way to do business. Scott On 12/9/09 2:21 PM, Jacob Schäffer wrote: Yves Barbion wrote: I don't want to select the Convert CMYK Colors to RGB option. In fact, I never want to convert colors ... I agree. However, remapping with what-ever tool is also lossy, but NOT as lossy as the Windows FrameMaker generated CMYK - RGB conversion (which generates highly oversaturated images with the CMYK-K component nearly evenly added to a canonical CMY - RGB conversion). This conversion IS performed by FrameMaker, NOT Windows GDI. Windows GDI does NOT support CMYK as input, *but* it can output CMYK according to ICC profiles as long as the input is RGB. That's not common knowledge, but is a fact afterall. Windows GDI also fully support custom data injection, which FrameMaker *does* support for EPS streams, but *doesn't* for CMYK bitmap streams. Loading CMYK bitmaps in Windows GDI requires a hack anyway, so why not make this hack complete? The omission in this regard articulate in my view lazy programming, but I'm sure Adobe has a reason for not finalizing this CMYK hack. Instead of implementing generic routines that inject valid CMYK and SPOT color data into *ALL* output formats that support those color spaces, Adobe has chosen to implement only a single route with (partly) support for this, namely the Save As PDF route. You can NOT *print* CMYK or SPOT colours to a CMYK device from FrameMaker, so you can NOT judge colors correctly on printed output. You have to Save As PDF and then print the resulting PDF to do so. Scott wrote: Again we are hoist upon Microsofts petard. Microsoft has NEVER been able to print CMYK. Only Linux and the Mac platform have handled it well. Not true. Windoes GDI can output CMYK colour if you activate Colour Management. Windows GDI allow anyone to pass on custom data streams not supported by Windows GDI. Hence, if you write an application that need support for CMYK and SPOT colours, it up to you to inject such custom data. In this case it's a deliberate Adobe-choice NOT to make the required changes in FrameMaker, and Windows GDI is not to blame anymore. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Hi group Has anyone seen the following problem: Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" selected, the PDF gets generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" not selected, the PDF cannot be generated and the following error message appears "maker: Unknown exception caught in EnumerateFonts routine. Please Restart your machine." Thanks. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Unfortunately the "Save As PDF" function in FM9 has some problems with the font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things happen. Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to PDF does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" turned on you might print to PDF instead. Printing is *much* faster than "Save As PDF" (which is hopelessly slow). Btw, the "Save As PDF" function implements PostScript more or less as of the FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. So, there IS a huge difference between the two "to PDF" routes (this is new in FM9). Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Sch?ffer? |? Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis All? 22, Raml?se DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: js at grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] P? vegne af Yves Barbion Sendt: 9. december 2009 13:39 Til: framers at lists.frameusers.com Emne: FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected Hi group Has anyone seen the following problem: Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" selected, the PDF gets generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" not selected, the PDF cannot be generated and the following error message appears "maker: Unknown exception caught in EnumerateFonts routine. Please Restart your machine." Thanks. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as js at grafikhuset.dk. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/js%40grafikhuset.dk Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Again we are hoist upon Microsofts petard. Microsoft has NEVER been able to print CMYK. Only Linux and the Mac platform have handled it well. Scott On 12/9/09 9:33 AM, Jacob Sch?ffer wrote: > Unfortunately the "Save As PDF" function in FM9 has some problems with the > font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that > actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things > happen. > > Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed > TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to PDF > does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want "Convert > CMYK Colors to RGB" turned on you might print to PDF instead. > > Printing is *much* faster than "Save As PDF" (which is hopelessly slow). > > Btw, the "Save As PDF" function implements PostScript more or less as of the > FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. > So, there IS a huge difference between the two "to PDF" routes (this is new > in FM9). > > Best regards / Med venlig hilsen > Jacob Sch?ffer | Chief Developer > -- > Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) > Paradis All? 22, Raml?se > DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark > Phone: +45 4439 4400 > Email: js at grafikhuset.dk > Web: www.grafikhuset.net
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Hi Jacob Thank you for your reply. I don't want to select the "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" option. In fact, I never want to "convert" colors, because I think that "converting colors" gives unpredictable results and is therefore a bad idea. Remapping colors, using tools like Enfocus PitStop, works better. So, if I use CMYK in Frame, I want CMYK in my PDFs as well, but that's a different (Windows GDI) issue. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Jacob Sch?ffer wrote: > Unfortunately the "Save As PDF" function in FM9 has some problems with the > font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that > actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things > happen. > > Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed > TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to > PDF > does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want "Convert > CMYK Colors to RGB" turned on you might print to PDF instead. > > Printing is *much* faster than "Save As PDF" (which is hopelessly slow). > > Btw, the "Save As PDF" function implements PostScript more or less as of > the > FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. > So, there IS a huge difference between the two "to PDF" routes (this is new > in FM9). > > Best regards / Med venlig hilsen > Jacob Sch?ffer | Chief Developer > -- > Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) > Paradis All? 22, Raml?se > DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark > Phone: +45 4439 4400 > Email: js at grafikhuset.dk > Web: www.grafikhuset.net > > > > > -Oprindelig meddelelse- > Fra: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] P? vegne af Yves Barbion > Sendt: 9. december 2009 13:39 > Til: framers at lists.frameusers.com > Emne: FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not > selected > > Hi group > > Has anyone seen the following problem: > > Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: > > - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" selected, the PDF gets > generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box > gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). > - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" not selected, the PDF > cannot be generated and the following error message appears "maker: > Unknown exception caught in EnumerateFonts routine. Please Restart your > machine." > > > Thanks. > > -- > Yves Barbion > www.scripto.nu > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as js at grafikhuset.dk. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/js%40grafikhuset.dk > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > >
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Yves Barbion wrote: < I don't want to select the "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" option. In fact, I never want to "convert" colors ... > I agree. However, remapping with what-ever tool is also lossy, but NOT as lossy as the Windows FrameMaker generated CMYK -> RGB conversion (which generates highly oversaturated images with the CMYK-K component nearly evenly added to a canonical CMY -> RGB conversion). This conversion IS performed by FrameMaker, NOT Windows GDI. Windows GDI does NOT support CMYK as input, *but* it can output CMYK according to ICC profiles as long as the input is RGB. That's not common knowledge, but is a fact afterall. Windows GDI also fully support "custom" data injection, which FrameMaker *does* support for EPS streams, but *doesn't* for CMYK bitmap streams. Loading CMYK bitmaps in Windows GDI requires a hack anyway, so why not make this hack complete? The omission in this regard articulate in my view lazy programming, but I'm sure Adobe has a reason for not finalizing this CMYK hack. Instead of implementing generic routines that inject valid CMYK and SPOT color data into *ALL* output formats that support those color spaces, Adobe has chosen to implement only a single route with (partly) support for this, namely the "Save As PDF" route. You can NOT *print* CMYK or SPOT colours to a CMYK device from FrameMaker, so you can NOT judge colors correctly on printed output. You have to Save As PDF and then print the resulting PDF to do so. Scott wrote: < Again we are hoist upon Microsofts petard. Microsoft has NEVER been able to print CMYK. Only Linux and the Mac platform have handled it well. > Not true. Windoes GDI can output CMYK colour if you activate Colour Management. Windows GDI allow anyone to pass on custom data streams not supported by Windows GDI. Hence, if you write an application that need support for CMYK and SPOT colours, it up to you to inject such "custom" data. In this case it's a deliberate Adobe-choice NOT to make the required changes in FrameMaker, and Windows GDI is not to blame anymore. Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Sch?ffer | Chief Developer -- Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis All? 22, Raml?se DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Phone: +45 4439 4400 Email: js at grafikhuset.dk Web: www.grafikhuset.net -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] P? vegne af Yves Barbion Sendt: 9. december 2009 17:24 Til: framers at lists.frameusers.com Emne: Re: FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected Hi Jacob Thank you for your reply. I don't want to select the "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" option. In fact, I never want to "convert" colors, because I think that "converting colors" gives unpredictable results and is therefore a bad idea. Remapping colors, using tools like Enfocus PitStop, works better. So, if I use CMYK in Frame, I want CMYK in my PDFs as well, but that's a different (Windows GDI) issue. -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Jacob Sch?ffer wrote: > Unfortunately the "Save As PDF" function in FM9 has some problems with the > font handling engine. Sometimes this function substitutes fonts that > actually are available on the system, and sometimes other weird things > happen. > > Also unfortunately, this is the only way to preserve CMYK colours in placed > TIFF images, since *printing* to PDF does NOT work this way. Printing to > PDF > does not cause the same font problems, however, and since you want "Convert > CMYK Colors to RGB" turned on you might print to PDF instead. > > Printing is *much* faster than "Save As PDF" (which is hopelessly slow). > > Btw, the "Save As PDF" function implements PostScript more or less as of > the > FrameMaker Unix version, but printing to PDF uses Windows GDI for the same. > So, there IS a huge difference between the two "to PDF" routes (this is new > in FM9). > > Best regards / Med venlig hilsen > Jacob Sch?ffer | Chief Developer > -- > Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) > Paradis All? 22, Raml?se > DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark > Phone: +45 4439 4400 > Email: js at grafikhuset.dk > Web: www.grafikhuset.net > > > > > -Oprindelig meddelelse- > Fra: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] P? vegne af Yves Barbion > Sendt: 9. december 2009 13:39 > Til: framers at lists.frameusers.com > Emne: FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not > selected > > Hi group > > Has anyone seen the following problem: > > Using FM9p250, save the FM file as PDF: > > - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" selected, the PDF gets > generated but the clipping path in EPS graphics is gone (the bounding box > gets a white background even when the Fill pattern is set to none). > - With the option "Convert CMYK Colors to
FM9: Unable to create PDF when "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" is not selected
Technically true, Jacob. However, why didn't Microsoft make it easy on everyone in the first place, since on inception of their OS printing was the major output? Why in the past 20 years didn't they correct their arrogant assumption that RGB was the only color output scheme that was needed? A hack is a hack. Not an acceptable way to do business. Scott On 12/9/09 2:21 PM, Jacob Sch?ffer wrote: > Yves Barbion wrote: > < I don't want to select the "Convert CMYK Colors to RGB" option. In fact, I > never want to "convert" colors ...> > > I agree. However, remapping with what-ever tool is also lossy, but NOT as > lossy as the Windows FrameMaker generated CMYK -> RGB conversion (which > generates highly oversaturated images with the CMYK-K component nearly evenly > added to a canonical CMY -> RGB conversion). This conversion IS performed by > FrameMaker, NOT Windows GDI. > > Windows GDI does NOT support CMYK as input, *but* it can output CMYK > according to ICC profiles as long as the input is RGB. That's not common > knowledge, but is a fact afterall. Windows GDI also fully support "custom" > data injection, which FrameMaker *does* support for EPS streams, but > *doesn't* for CMYK bitmap streams. Loading CMYK bitmaps in Windows GDI > requires a hack anyway, so why not make this hack complete? > > The omission in this regard articulate in my view lazy programming, but I'm > sure Adobe has a reason for not finalizing this CMYK hack. > > Instead of implementing generic routines that inject valid CMYK and SPOT > color data into *ALL* output formats that support those color spaces, Adobe > has chosen to implement only a single route with (partly) support for this, > namely the "Save As PDF" route. You can NOT *print* CMYK or SPOT colours to a > CMYK device from FrameMaker, so you can NOT judge colors correctly on printed > output. You have to Save As PDF and then print the resulting PDF to do so. > > > Scott wrote: > < Again we are hoist upon Microsofts petard. Microsoft has NEVER been able > to print CMYK. Only Linux and the Mac platform have handled it well.> > > Not true. Windoes GDI can output CMYK colour if you activate Colour > Management. Windows GDI allow anyone to pass on custom data streams not > supported by Windows GDI. Hence, if you write an application that need > support for CMYK and SPOT colours, it up to you to inject such "custom" data. > > In this case it's a deliberate Adobe-choice NOT to make the required changes > in FrameMaker, and Windows GDI is not to blame anymore. > > Best regards / Med venlig hilsen > Jacob Sch?ffer | Chief Developer > -- > Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) > Paradis All? 22, Raml?se > DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark > Phone: +45 4439 4400 > Email: js at grafikhuset.dk > Web: www.grafikhuset.net
