Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-10 Thread Robert Lauriston
To the contrary, I think pretty much everyone is trying to move off
legacy mainframe systems. It's a booming business.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d=migrate+cobol+to+the+cloud

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:55 AM Lin Sims  wrote:
>
> Because they still work, they're reliable, and at this point they're pretty
> much unhackable. Plus, the cost of transferring all that data and creating
> programs in modern languages is incalculable. No one wants to make the
> investment.
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-10 Thread Lin Sims
Because they still work, they're reliable, and at this point they're pretty
much unhackable. Plus, the cost of transferring all that data and creating
programs in modern languages is incalculable. No one wants to make the
investment.


-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-10 Thread Robert Lauriston
In related news:

"Literally, we have systems that are 40-plus-years-old," New Jersey Gov.
> Murphy said over the weekend. "There'll be lots of postmortems and one of
> them on our list will be how did we get here where we literally needed
> COBOL programmers?"
>

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/business/coronavirus-cobol-programmers-new-jersey-trnd/index.html
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-09 Thread jackdeland
Reading all this nostalgia makes ME feel young again. And I was at the
Apollo 11 launch.

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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-09 Thread Robert Lauriston
Interleaf was eventually acquired by Broadleaf, which renamed it
Quicksilver, which still exists.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:33 AM Tarlochan S. Nahal  wrote:
>
> My nostalgia goes further back!
>
> As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much better
> graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted line,"
> but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be some
> licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors. ...
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Peter Gold
Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."

Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)


On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight 
wrote:

> Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold 
> wrote:
>
> > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of us
> > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol



On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold 
wrote:

> Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of us
> have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Peter Gold
Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of us
have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth  wrote:

> I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment. It
> allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned how
> to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based machines
> with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
>
> But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
>
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time, although I
> > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I though I
> was
> > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the poor job
> they
> > were doing!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro  wrote:
> >
> > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on floppy disks
> > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > ___
> >
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember that
DOS-based machine...had one of them!

J


On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth  wrote:

> I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment. It
> allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned how
> to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based machines
> with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Mark Soiseth
I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment. It
allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned how
to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based machines
with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.

But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight 
wrote:

> Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time, although I
> loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I though I was
> the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the poor job they
> were doing!
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro  wrote:
>
> > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on floppy disks
> > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time, although I
loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I though I was
the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the poor job they
were doing!




On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro  wrote:

> I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on floppy disks
> to the latest Corel Version 10.
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Wowser Robert, talk about a background! Which makes me laugh at a recent
comment by a young man of 34 when I said something about technology in the
late 70s and early 80s. The comment: "They had technology back then?" This
story definitely proves that yes, grasshopper, they did!

Ouch, lol!


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 2:00 PM Robert Lauriston 
wrote:

> In the late 70s and 80s I made my living typing, mostly at law firms,
> so I saw the whole evolution firsthand. When I started it was
> typewriters with carbon paper and Wite-Out. Then came IBM Correcting
> Selectric ball typewriters and Xerox machines, then IBM Mag Card or
> occasionally the MT/ST tape version, then came the DisplayWriter or at
> bigger places Wang minicomputers with terminals. Somewhere in the
> mid-80s I started seeing laser printers at big places.
>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-07 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Oh my Lin...what a list! Some I remember and used, others I don't. Now I
know why you've always been so quick to pick up the techie stuff!

J

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 1:46 PM Lin Sims  wrote:

> I started out as a temp, not a tech writer, which meant I got to work on a
> whole LOT of systems. My agencies used to send me when someone called in
> with a program they'd never heard of, because they figured I either knew it
> or could figure it out very quickly. Alphabetically, they were,
>
> DECmate (?)
> FrameMaker
> MASS-11
> Multimate
> Office Writer
> PC-Write
> Philips Micom
> Volkswriter
> Wang
> WordPerfect
> WordStar
> XyWrite
> emacs (VERY LITTLE)
> vi (even less)
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 12:32 PM L Larson  wrote:
>
> > Wow, this brings up SO many memories...
> >
> > Does anyone remember Micom, where an 8" floppy could hold as much as 100
> > pages of straight text? How about Displaywriter, one of the first to move
> > from a dedicated system to a PC?
> >
> > Later, I remember having to choose between Word Perfect, WordStar, and
> > Word for a PC, and chose Word Perfect because it favored keyboard
> commands
> > over Word's menu commands and a cleaner look than WordStar.
> >
> > Those were the days when Wang and Interleaf were used by companies like
> > General Motors.
> >
> > Finally, in the early 90s, I was able to move to an early version of FM
> > for large document sets. What a joy it was then!
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Framers  >
> > On Behalf Of Jerilynne Knight
> > Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 6:56 AM
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> > framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> >
> > Hey there Peter, I totally forgot about WordStar! I'm still a keyboard
> > shortcuts person and grumble heartily when they're not available. I can
> do
> > things so much more quickly with the keyboard!
> >
> > J
> > 317.593.5551
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:11 PM Peter Gold 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 7:31 PM Robert Lauriston 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I used FullWrite on an SE/30 in the late 80s. I think it was my
> > > > preferred word processor for a while.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage
> > at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
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> >
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>
>
> --
> Lin Sims
> ___
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-06 Thread Robert Lauriston
In the late 70s and 80s I made my living typing, mostly at law firms,
so I saw the whole evolution firsthand. When I started it was
typewriters with carbon paper and Wite-Out. Then came IBM Correcting
Selectric ball typewriters and Xerox machines, then IBM Mag Card or
occasionally the MT/ST tape version, then came the DisplayWriter or at
bigger places Wang minicomputers with terminals. Somewhere in the
mid-80s I started seeing laser printers at big places.

In 1967, Jim Henson made a promotional film for the IBM MT/ST with
music by Raymond Scott (at that time, the only person in the world
with a polyphonic sequencer).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZw2CoYztk

In the mid-80s I was freelance and worked at many different law firms
in San Francisco and New York. Some of them had less popular systems
such as the Xerox 860, which had the first WYSIWYG display and
touchpad I encountered, and the Exxon Qyx, which had a little LED
display:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--uwuseejvU

Finally in the late 80s the law firms virtually all switched to PCs,
WordPerfect, and HP LaserJet printers. For a couple of years I worked
as a WordPerfect consultant, helping firms migrate from dedicated word
processors, converting files (migrating documents from 8"
DisplayWriter disks to 5-1/4" disks in WordPerfect format was a black
art), writing macros to automate basic tasks, and writing printer
drivers for off-brand laser printers. One reason WordPerfect beat
WordStar, Word, et al. in the legal market was that it was fairly
simple to get it to generate numbered legal pleading paper in a laser
printer. There was even a special graphics card that did an
approximation of WYSIWYG.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-9qzy8Z8SKEC=PA154=PA154=hercules+graphics+card+plus+%22wordperfect%22=bl=VR-lZjcVXX=ACfU3U3NIXsYsLCQ7MvEISIMjn8sgOvSUw=en=X=2ahUKEwi5zKjer9ToAhWwJzQIHeKhBzMQ6AEwAHoECAsQKg#v=onepage=hercules%20graphics%20card%20plus%20%22wordperfect%22=false

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 9:32 AM L Larson  wrote:
>
> Wow, this brings up SO many memories...
>
> Does anyone remember Micom, where an 8" floppy could hold as much as 100 
> pages of straight text? How about Displaywriter, one of the first to move 
> from a dedicated system to a PC? ...
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-06 Thread Lin Sims
I started out as a temp, not a tech writer, which meant I got to work on a
whole LOT of systems. My agencies used to send me when someone called in
with a program they'd never heard of, because they figured I either knew it
or could figure it out very quickly. Alphabetically, they were,

DECmate (?)
FrameMaker
MASS-11
Multimate
Office Writer
PC-Write
Philips Micom
Volkswriter
Wang
WordPerfect
WordStar
XyWrite
emacs (VERY LITTLE)
vi (even less)

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 12:32 PM L Larson  wrote:

> Wow, this brings up SO many memories...
>
> Does anyone remember Micom, where an 8" floppy could hold as much as 100
> pages of straight text? How about Displaywriter, one of the first to move
> from a dedicated system to a PC?
>
> Later, I remember having to choose between Word Perfect, WordStar, and
> Word for a PC, and chose Word Perfect because it favored keyboard commands
> over Word's menu commands and a cleaner look than WordStar.
>
> Those were the days when Wang and Interleaf were used by companies like
> General Motors.
>
> Finally, in the early 90s, I was able to move to an early version of FM
> for large document sets. What a joy it was then!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On Behalf Of Jerilynne Knight
> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 6:56 AM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
>
> Hey there Peter, I totally forgot about WordStar! I'm still a keyboard
> shortcuts person and grumble heartily when they're not available. I can do
> things so much more quickly with the keyboard!
>
> J
> 317.593.5551
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:11 PM Peter Gold 
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 7:31 PM Robert Lauriston 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I used FullWrite on an SE/30 in the late 80s. I think it was my
> > > preferred word processor for a while.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage
> at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
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-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-06 Thread Jerilynne Knight
I remember at least a part of those days! My first training course in '84
was to help executive assistants (they were called secretaries back then)
convert from typewriters to a standalone word processing unit from DEC
(with 2 8" floppies...one for the system
files and one for the data files). I don't miss those days even tho' I do
remember them! I started with Ventura then, at the request of a prospect,
learned about FM (the only software course I ever officially took). I was
in heaven!!

Have a fantabulous day...

Jerilynne Knight
The Encourager
317.593.5551


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 12:32 PM L Larson  wrote:

> Wow, this brings up SO many memories...
>
> Does anyone remember Micom, where an 8" floppy could hold as much as 100
> pages of straight text? How about Displaywriter, one of the first to move
> from a dedicated system to a PC?
>
> Later, I remember having to choose between Word Perfect, WordStar, and
> Word for a PC, and chose Word Perfect because it favored keyboard commands
> over Word's menu commands and a cleaner look than WordStar.
>
> Those were the days when Wang and Interleaf were used by companies like
> General Motors.
>
> Finally, in the early 90s, I was able to move to an early version of FM
> for large document sets. What a joy it was then!
>
>
>
___

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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-06 Thread L Larson
Wow, this brings up SO many memories...

Does anyone remember Micom, where an 8" floppy could hold as much as 100 pages 
of straight text? How about Displaywriter, one of the first to move from a 
dedicated system to a PC? 

Later, I remember having to choose between Word Perfect, WordStar, and Word for 
a PC, and chose Word Perfect because it favored keyboard commands over Word's 
menu commands and a cleaner look than WordStar.

Those were the days when Wang and Interleaf were used by companies like General 
Motors.

Finally, in the early 90s, I was able to move to an early version of FM for 
large document sets. What a joy it was then!

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Jerilynne Knight
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 6:56 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

Hey there Peter, I totally forgot about WordStar! I'm still a keyboard 
shortcuts person and grumble heartily when they're not available. I can do 
things so much more quickly with the keyboard!

J
317.593.5551


On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:11 PM Peter Gold 
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 7:31 PM Robert Lauriston 
> wrote:
>
> > I used FullWrite on an SE/30 in the late 80s. I think it was my 
> > preferred word processor for a while.
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-03 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hey there Peter, I totally forgot about WordStar! I'm still a keyboard
shortcuts person and grumble heartily when they're not available. I can do
things so much more quickly with the keyboard!

J
317.593.5551


On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:11 PM Peter Gold 
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 7:31 PM Robert Lauriston 
> wrote:
>
> > I used FullWrite on an SE/30 in the late 80s. I think it was my
> > preferred word processor for a while.
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-03 Thread Jerilynne Knight
Hey there Lin...right there widya Numbering, after all these years,
still sucks!

J


On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 8:47 AM Lin Sims  wrote:

> Word still pretty much sucks. It's more stable than it used to be, but
> things like numbering still require very strictly controlled styles or some
> facility with VB. I've encountered people who can get it to do a lot of
> what Frame does, but, again, they use a lot of VB macros to do what Frame
> does out of the box. No thanks!
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-03 Thread Lin Sims
Word still pretty much sucks. It's more stable than it used to be, but
things like numbering still require very strictly controlled styles or some
facility with VB. I've encountered people who can get it to do a lot of
what Frame does, but, again, they use a lot of VB macros to do what Frame
does out of the box. No thanks!

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 8:42 AM Jerilynne Knight 
wrote:

> What a great history of FM...I started out on Ventura Publisher, while
> working for Xerox, who had purchased the software and didn't know squiddly
> squat about it so, as someone who had gone NUTZ trying to find some way to
> do process doc and software manuals without going postal, I set out to
> learn it, then demoed, then moved to FrameMaker in about '92 as I recall.
> Oh, and I agree with Word for DOS...I fought, kicking and screaming, when
> the Windows versions came out. Still do in point of fact!
>
> J
> 317.593.5551
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 3:49 AM Frank Stearns  wrote:
>
> > In 1990 or so I'd just completed migrating some 6000 pages of DEC RNO
> > (with pieces of UNIX Troff tossed in) over to LaTeX for my primary
> > client of the day (Aptec Systems, a Floating Point Systems spin-off
> > who made high-speed I/O computers. We're talking large fractions of a
> > million dollars systems (multi-millions for the "big" systems) whose
> > then fantastic bus speeds are today dwarfed by that $500 laptop at
> > Best Buy or Walmart.)
> >
> >
> >
> ___
>
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-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-03 Thread Jerilynne Knight
What a great history of FM...I started out on Ventura Publisher, while
working for Xerox, who had purchased the software and didn't know squiddly
squat about it so, as someone who had gone NUTZ trying to find some way to
do process doc and software manuals without going postal, I set out to
learn it, then demoed, then moved to FrameMaker in about '92 as I recall.
Oh, and I agree with Word for DOS...I fought, kicking and screaming, when
the Windows versions came out. Still do in point of fact!

J
317.593.5551


On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 3:49 AM Frank Stearns  wrote:

> In 1990 or so I'd just completed migrating some 6000 pages of DEC RNO
> (with pieces of UNIX Troff tossed in) over to LaTeX for my primary
> client of the day (Aptec Systems, a Floating Point Systems spin-off
> who made high-speed I/O computers. We're talking large fractions of a
> million dollars systems (multi-millions for the "big" systems) whose
> then fantastic bus speeds are today dwarfed by that $500 laptop at
> Best Buy or Walmart.)
>
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-03 Thread Lin Sims
Klaus is fairly active on the Adobe forums, and still working on useful
scripts, too.

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 8:05 PM Peter Gold 
wrote:

> Just when I've been wondering if I’m really as old as I look, or only as
> old as I've always thought I was (meaning 20-something), in jumps Frank
> Stearns! Like Lin Sims, Lynne Price, et. al. You're one of the early-on
> posters I remember saving lives - mine and those of others - back in the
> days of comp.text.frame and similar "pools" of pain-loving techwhrlrs.
> Thanks for chiming in all you old-timers. Glad to hear you're still here.
>
> I second the comment about dodging a bullet over a nit-pick! Remember that
> Groucho Marx, a word-wrangler if there ever was one, said he'd never join a
> group that invited him.
>
> One of the folks among the Jacks and Janes of all trades who comprised
> Ashton-Tate's dBASE II tech support group that I was lucky enough to hire
> into back in '86, (and one exception to Groucho's rule, at least for me,)
> turned out to have been a music transcriber. Yeah, a hand-powered  music
> writer, who made the scores for large orchestras, etc. He saw the
> calligraphy on the wall, namely that technology, bad as it was then, wasn't
> gonna stop encroaching on his skills.
>
> As to nostalgia for lost technologies, Ashton-Tate bought Mac-based
> FullWrite Professional, probably one of the only real competitors to FM's
> range of features then, or perhaps ever, had it survived. So many stories
> in that valley of silicon. Until development couldn't climb the hill fast
> enough, and A-T pulled the plug on FullWrite, it was in the running at the
> place where I first saw FM on Mac and Sun.
>
> I haven't seen anything recently from Klaus Daube. He's been compiling FM
> history.  www.daube.ch There's always more to the story.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:31 AM Frank Stearns  wrote:
>
> > In 1990 or so I'd just completed migrating some 6000 pages of DEC RNO
> > (with pieces of UNIX Troff tossed in) over to LaTeX for my primary
> > client of the day (Aptec Systems, a Floating Point Systems spin-off
> > who made high-speed I/O computers. We're talking large fractions of a
> > million dollars systems (multi-millions for the "big" systems) whose
> > then fantastic bus speeds are today dwarfed by that $500 laptop at
> > Best Buy or Walmart.)
> >
> > One of the engineers had a copy of FM 1.3 on his Sun 3/50
> > invited me to have a look. I was not impressed -- at all. (By that
> > time, while mostly hating it, I could get LaTeX to sit up, roll-over,
> > and play dead -- which it did do from time to time with no prompting.)
> >
> > Months later, that same engineer showed me FM 2.1. Wow. Now we're
> > getting somewhere, as I'd just battled through Ventura Publisher's
> > endless bugs on a project for another client.
> >
> > I'm not exactly sure how the decision was made, but Aptec shifted over
> > to FrameMaker 2.1 (which cost money) from LaTeX which was "free". It
> > might have had something to do with LaTeX bringing even the newer "hot
> > rod" DEC microvaxes to their knees when I ran a job. The engineers
> > would march around my cubical with torches chanting curses, while
> > the system manager scrambled to find resources to handle all the
> > usual product cycle crunch conditions -- doc releases parallel with
> > product releases.
> >
> > Aptec was also shifting over to more of those new-fangled SUN
> > workstations, which were completely independent of the VAXes. "Good!
> > Kick that tech-writer P-I-A over onto the UNIX systems!" The guys were
> > all s happy that LaTeX was no longer crippling their main
> > development platforms. (They finally stopped blaming me personally.)
> >
> > But it did mean yet another migration of those 1000s of pages of docs
> > from LaTeX over to FM. I got pretty handy with MIF and MML (remember
> > MML?). Other conversion help came from macros in MS WORD-for-DOS
> > (perhaps the only Word version that was worthwhile; much more reliable
> > than word for windows) and lots of fun with the text processing power
> > of UNIX and even similar command line functions in VMS.
> >
> > FM 3.0 really started to "open up the world" and provided a whole new
> > look and feel to the documents, and was so much easier to use. For its
> > day "Best Looking/most functional" FM version award probably goes to
> > FM3 on monochrome Sunview.
> >
> > Having cut my teeth on embedded-format command word-processors and
> > typesetters in the mid-1970s, WYSIWYG systems always seemed to be
> > something of a sham, especially when they were so prone to bugs and
> > crashes, such as that Ventura project revealed.
> >
> > But I made my declaration at FM 2.1 that FM was the FIRST WYSIWYG
> > system that actually made sense and lived up to the promises of such
> > systems, and did so (mostly) with reliability and elegance, and
> > certainly for a reasonable price and licensing scheme when compared to
> > the competitors, such as Interleaf.
> >
> 

Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Peter Gold
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 7:31 PM Robert Lauriston 
wrote:

> I used FullWrite on an SE/30 in the late 80s. I think it was my
> preferred word processor for a while.
>

WordStar's Ctrl-key "diamond" s, d, e, and x, for cursor movement, and many
text operations, are still burnt into my synapses, only slightly less
intensely than FM's Esc sequences.

Of course, everyone on this list knows the "book people" in "Fahrenheit
451," who memorized whole books and lived in the woods, to stay alive and
preserve history. Just sayin' ;)
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Craig Ede
Tags may exist as nouns in the manual, but for him it seemed the verb 'tagging' 
was XML related only.

Did I say manual? I meant help pages. Another slip.

Craig


Robert Lauriston said:
I'm not sure how nostalgia figures into that. What most programs call
paragraph styles and character styles, unstructured FrameMaker calls
paragraph tags and character tags.

https://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/2019/using/using-framemaker-2019/frm_page_layout_pl-styles.html

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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Robert Lauriston
I used FullWrite on an SE/30 in the late 80s. I think it was my
preferred word processor for a while.

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 5:05 PM Peter Gold  wrote:
>
> ... As to nostalgia for lost technologies, Ashton-Tate bought Mac-based
> FullWrite Professional, probably one of the only real competitors to FM's
> range of features then, or perhaps ever, had it survived. So many stories
> in that valley of silicon. Until development couldn't climb the hill fast
> enough, and A-T pulled the plug on FullWrite, it was in the running at the
> place where I first saw FM on Mac and Sun.
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Peter Gold
Just when I've been wondering if I’m really as old as I look, or only as
old as I've always thought I was (meaning 20-something), in jumps Frank
Stearns! Like Lin Sims, Lynne Price, et. al. You're one of the early-on
posters I remember saving lives - mine and those of others - back in the
days of comp.text.frame and similar "pools" of pain-loving techwhrlrs.
Thanks for chiming in all you old-timers. Glad to hear you're still here.

I second the comment about dodging a bullet over a nit-pick! Remember that
Groucho Marx, a word-wrangler if there ever was one, said he'd never join a
group that invited him.

One of the folks among the Jacks and Janes of all trades who comprised
Ashton-Tate's dBASE II tech support group that I was lucky enough to hire
into back in '86, (and one exception to Groucho's rule, at least for me,)
turned out to have been a music transcriber. Yeah, a hand-powered  music
writer, who made the scores for large orchestras, etc. He saw the
calligraphy on the wall, namely that technology, bad as it was then, wasn't
gonna stop encroaching on his skills.

As to nostalgia for lost technologies, Ashton-Tate bought Mac-based
FullWrite Professional, probably one of the only real competitors to FM's
range of features then, or perhaps ever, had it survived. So many stories
in that valley of silicon. Until development couldn't climb the hill fast
enough, and A-T pulled the plug on FullWrite, it was in the running at the
place where I first saw FM on Mac and Sun.

I haven't seen anything recently from Klaus Daube. He's been compiling FM
history.  www.daube.ch There's always more to the story.


On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:31 AM Frank Stearns  wrote:

> In 1990 or so I'd just completed migrating some 6000 pages of DEC RNO
> (with pieces of UNIX Troff tossed in) over to LaTeX for my primary
> client of the day (Aptec Systems, a Floating Point Systems spin-off
> who made high-speed I/O computers. We're talking large fractions of a
> million dollars systems (multi-millions for the "big" systems) whose
> then fantastic bus speeds are today dwarfed by that $500 laptop at
> Best Buy or Walmart.)
>
> One of the engineers had a copy of FM 1.3 on his Sun 3/50
> invited me to have a look. I was not impressed -- at all. (By that
> time, while mostly hating it, I could get LaTeX to sit up, roll-over,
> and play dead -- which it did do from time to time with no prompting.)
>
> Months later, that same engineer showed me FM 2.1. Wow. Now we're
> getting somewhere, as I'd just battled through Ventura Publisher's
> endless bugs on a project for another client.
>
> I'm not exactly sure how the decision was made, but Aptec shifted over
> to FrameMaker 2.1 (which cost money) from LaTeX which was "free". It
> might have had something to do with LaTeX bringing even the newer "hot
> rod" DEC microvaxes to their knees when I ran a job. The engineers
> would march around my cubical with torches chanting curses, while
> the system manager scrambled to find resources to handle all the
> usual product cycle crunch conditions -- doc releases parallel with
> product releases.
>
> Aptec was also shifting over to more of those new-fangled SUN
> workstations, which were completely independent of the VAXes. "Good!
> Kick that tech-writer P-I-A over onto the UNIX systems!" The guys were
> all s happy that LaTeX was no longer crippling their main
> development platforms. (They finally stopped blaming me personally.)
>
> But it did mean yet another migration of those 1000s of pages of docs
> from LaTeX over to FM. I got pretty handy with MIF and MML (remember
> MML?). Other conversion help came from macros in MS WORD-for-DOS
> (perhaps the only Word version that was worthwhile; much more reliable
> than word for windows) and lots of fun with the text processing power
> of UNIX and even similar command line functions in VMS.
>
> FM 3.0 really started to "open up the world" and provided a whole new
> look and feel to the documents, and was so much easier to use. For its
> day "Best Looking/most functional" FM version award probably goes to
> FM3 on monochrome Sunview.
>
> Having cut my teeth on embedded-format command word-processors and
> typesetters in the mid-1970s, WYSIWYG systems always seemed to be
> something of a sham, especially when they were so prone to bugs and
> crashes, such as that Ventura project revealed.
>
> But I made my declaration at FM 2.1 that FM was the FIRST WYSIWYG
> system that actually made sense and lived up to the promises of such
> systems, and did so (mostly) with reliability and elegance, and
> certainly for a reasonable price and licensing scheme when compared to
> the competitors, such as Interleaf.
>
> FM4 brought along that wonderful table editor and the API. Woo hoo!
> Now we could have some real fun. Our flagship product, IXgen, was
> born, and became highly popular. Other fun FM aids (born a little
> earlier) caught the attention of multiple people, including some folks
> at Cisco Systems who had 

Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Robert Lauriston
I'm not sure how nostalgia figures into that. What most programs call
paragraph styles and character styles, unstructured FrameMaker calls
paragraph tags and character tags.

https://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/2019/using/using-framemaker-2019/frm_page_layout_pl-styles.html

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 2:33 PM Craig Ede  wrote:
>
> Nostalgia can cause trouble. I recently was in an interview with a 
> multinational Health Care company in the Milwaukee/Waukesha area and referred 
> to 'tagging' paragraphs in unstructured FrameMaker. The interviewer was 
> nonplussed and corrected me, saying unstructured FrameMaker was not like XML. 
> Well, it isn't. But tagging was how the process was described. But I believe 
> he saw that use of the terminology as a slip in my understanding of the two 
> faces of FrameMaker, unstructured and structured, both of which had 
> importance for this particular job.
>
> Didn't get that contract. Probable a multiplicity of factors, but this 
> tagging thing didn't help.
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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Frank Stearns

On Thu, 2 Apr 2020, Craig Ede wrote:


Nostalgia can cause trouble. I recently was in an interview with a


True, to some degree.

On the other hand, I've noted some annoying shifts in some language 
"pools" such that "process" becomes more important than "results". 
This seems to be especially true in academia.


I've been teaching some online classes in another technical subject 
area entirely (music technology -- recording, mixing, live sound as 
part of a music technology masters).


Recently, the university hired an external bunch of educrats to 
"review" material and make it "align" to new "standards", forcing 
dull, dull, dull language that only educrats can love (students hate 
it, as did I as a student when this kind of thing started to take hold 
40-50 years ago).


When asked to build and teach these classes a few years back, getting 
them online seemed like an impossibility. But I thought about it for a 
spell and came up with a few techniques, one of them being that EVERY 
word of the online content -- from instructions to readings -- would 
never, ever fall into that dull, passive, academic drone language.


Without getting artificially giddy or imprecise, all text would excite 
and engage. Seemed to work; my classes picked up some campus-wide 
awards and the overall program itself was in the top 10 of the entire 
online offerings in the USA.


Of course, following this review, I got into trouble -- but fought 
back and actually won. (And probably picked up some enemies among the 
educrats.)


multinational Health Care company in the Milwaukee/Waukesha area and 
referred to 'tagging' paragraphs in unstructured FrameMaker. The


I can't for the life of me see what's wrong with this.

interviewer was nonplussed and corrected me, saying unstructured 
FrameMaker was not like XML. Well, it isn't. But tagging was how the 
process was described.


Absolutely.

But I believe he saw that use of the 
terminology as a slip in my understanding of the two faces of 
FrameMaker, unstructured and structured, both of which had 
importance for this particular job.


How were you supposed to describe this action?

Didn't get that contract. Probable a multiplicity of factors, but 
this tagging thing didn't help.


And you might have dodged a bullet, such as "non-doers" telling you 
how to "do." That gets realy annoying, especially when your 
methods/words work and regular folks/users see and appreciate this.


Frank Stearns
FSA

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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Craig Ede
Nostalgia can cause trouble. I recently was in an interview with a 
multinational Health Care company in the Milwaukee/Waukesha area and referred 
to 'tagging' paragraphs in unstructured FrameMaker. The interviewer was 
nonplussed and corrected me, saying unstructured FrameMaker was not like XML. 
Well, it isn't. But tagging was how the process was described. But I believe he 
saw that use of the terminology as a slip in my understanding of the two faces 
of FrameMaker, unstructured and structured, both of which had importance for 
this particular job.

Didn't get that contract. Probable a multiplicity of factors, but this tagging 
thing didn't help.

Craig

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Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015

2020-04-02 Thread Böðvar Björgvinsson
Thanks for this insight.
Bodvar





fim., 2. apr. 2020 kl. 17:09 skrifaði Frank Stearns :

> In 1990 or so I'd just completed migrating some 6000 pages of DEC RNO
> (with pieces of UNIX Troff tossed in) over to LaTeX for my primary
> client of the day (Aptec Systems, a Floating Point Systems spin-off
> who made high-speed I/O computers. We're talking large fractions of a
> million dollars systems (multi-millions for the "big" systems) whose
> then fantastic bus speeds are today dwarfed by that $500 laptop at
> Best Buy or Walmart.)
>
> One of the engineers had a copy of FM 1.3 on his Sun 3/50
> invited me to have a look. I was not impressed -- at all. (By that
> time, while mostly hating it, I could get LaTeX to sit up, roll-over,
> and play dead -- which it did do from time to time with no prompting.)
>
> Months later, that same engineer showed me FM 2.1. Wow. Now we're
> getting somewhere, as I'd just battled through Ventura Publisher's
> endless bugs on a project for another client.
>
> I'm not exactly sure how the decision was made, but Aptec shifted over
> to FrameMaker 2.1 (which cost money) from LaTeX which was "free". It
> might have had something to do with LaTeX bringing even the newer "hot
> rod" DEC microvaxes to their knees when I ran a job. The engineers
> would march around my cubical with torches chanting curses, while
> the system manager scrambled to find resources to handle all the
> usual product cycle crunch conditions -- doc releases parallel with
> product releases.
>
> Aptec was also shifting over to more of those new-fangled SUN
> workstations, which were completely independent of the VAXes. "Good!
> Kick that tech-writer P-I-A over onto the UNIX systems!" The guys were
> all s happy that LaTeX was no longer crippling their main
> development platforms. (They finally stopped blaming me personally.)
>
> But it did mean yet another migration of those 1000s of pages of docs
> from LaTeX over to FM. I got pretty handy with MIF and MML (remember
> MML?). Other conversion help came from macros in MS WORD-for-DOS
> (perhaps the only Word version that was worthwhile; much more reliable
> than word for windows) and lots of fun with the text processing power
> of UNIX and even similar command line functions in VMS.
>
> FM 3.0 really started to "open up the world" and provided a whole new
> look and feel to the documents, and was so much easier to use. For its
> day "Best Looking/most functional" FM version award probably goes to
> FM3 on monochrome Sunview.
>
> Having cut my teeth on embedded-format command word-processors and
> typesetters in the mid-1970s, WYSIWYG systems always seemed to be
> something of a sham, especially when they were so prone to bugs and
> crashes, such as that Ventura project revealed.
>
> But I made my declaration at FM 2.1 that FM was the FIRST WYSIWYG
> system that actually made sense and lived up to the promises of such
> systems, and did so (mostly) with reliability and elegance, and
> certainly for a reasonable price and licensing scheme when compared to
> the competitors, such as Interleaf.
>
> FM4 brought along that wonderful table editor and the API. Woo hoo!
> Now we could have some real fun. Our flagship product, IXgen, was
> born, and became highly popular. Other fun FM aids (born a little
> earlier) caught the attention of multiple people, including some folks
> at Cisco Systems who had been offered a seat on Frame's newly-formed
> Customer Advisory Board.
>
> To their credit (and unknown to me at the time) Cisco told FM that
> they certainly had enough "large customer" representation on the board
> (Boeing, BEA Systems, US Army [IIRC] among others) but they lacked any
> "small user" representation. That's when my name came up and I was
> invited to join the board to represent independents and contractors
> who used FM. Unfortunately, the board went away when Adobe purchased
> Frame Technologies.
>
> (For more "museum" stories, visit fsatools.com; select "FSA
> Resources", Early Products.)
>
> More fun as the years ticked by and my company pivoted from tech pubs
> to software products, mostly for FM.
>
> The landscape now is quite different; few folks do indexing any more.
> "Just google it" is the new mantra. This is okay for me; I can slide
> into semi-retirement and support the IXgen users who are still active.
> Thanks to all present and past users of our products.
>
> Frank Stearns
> FSA
>
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