RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Well Adobe's other software (Illustrator, InDesign, Photoshop) and even Microsoft's Office suite seems to find it a lot less complex than FrameMaker does A screen-shot in a technical manual does come from an RGB colour space. Likewise, a photograph taken with a digital camera is natively an RGB thing. If they ever gets printed on paper on colour, then CMYK inks will be used to print it (there are no RGB inks!) What's supposed to happen is that they can be included in your PDF output as RGB items, tagged with their respective colour profiles (sRGB for a screenshot, or something more fancy if the camera's manufacturer supplies their own profile), and the PDF is output-device-independent. So if you view the PDF on screen, the OS and display driver take account of the monitor's declared output capabilities, and render the RGB items appropriately; Conversely, if you're printing the PDF on paper, the OS and printer driver connive between themselves to choose appropriate CYMK values to render the RGB items on the page. Trying to convert to CMYK up front in FrameMaker and thus pre-empt the printer's capabilities is a mug's game (and vice versa if you have natively CMYK or Pantone material in your PDF). From: Craig Ede [mailto:craig...@hotmail.com] Sent: 22 October 2014 15:35 To: Davis, David; framers Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Yes, I think color conversions are that complex. RGB was designed for monitors allowing a broad range of additive colors in the form of light (i.e. lit pixels). CMYK was designed for subtractive printing to paper offering a restricted range of those colors; many of the RGB colors being out of gamut for CMYK, meaning there is no formula to convert them. Nobody serious is printing high-quality hardcopy using R, G, and B inks. And I'm not sure why one would want to use CMYK to print to the screen. Craig __ *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Are colour conversions really that complex? They're just converting colour coordinates in one colour-space to those in another, using some straightforward formulae that are hidden under the hood. (The choice of formula, and what to do if a colour is 'out of gamut', depends on the 'rendering intent', of which we usually have a choice of four). The conversions will give 'round-tripping' errors if they're out of gamut. This is why better Adobe software (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign) maps RGB and CMYK via a device-independent (LaB) representation, rather than straight from one to the other. The problem with FrameMaker is that the conversion algorithms it uses are crude rubbish. This is why they frequently give such awful results, not because it's complex. From previous threads on the Adobe Forums, it seems that the conversion formula Frame uses is: RGB to CMYK: C = max(R, G, B) - R M = max(R, G, B) - G Y = max(R, G, B) - B K = 100 - max(R, G, B) CMYK to RGB: R = min(100 - K - C, 0) G = min(100 - K - M, 0) B = min(100 - K - Y, 0) ...which gives rubbish results. David From: Jacob Sch?ffer (Grafikhuset) j...@grafikhuset.dk To: i...@heiko-haida.de, 'Craig Ede' craig...@hotmail.com Cc: 'framers' framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Message-ID: 00a601cfec93$39b38e10$ad1aaa30$@grafikhuset.dk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It?s definitely NOT easy to explain this. Color conversions are COMPLEX. Anyway, RGB - CMYK conversion is lossy, and CMYK - RGB is also lossy. What is the point of the RGB switch afterall? Why not just pass through what?s input and remove this switch? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Yes, I think color conversions are that complex. RGB was designed for monitors allowing a broad range of additive colors in the form of light (i.e. lit pixels). CMYK was designed for subtractive printing to paper offering a restricted range of those colors; many of the RGB colors being out of gamut for CMYK, meaning there is no formula to convert them. Nobody serious is printing high-quality hardcopy using R, G, and B inks. And I'm not sure why one would want to use CMYK to print to the screen. Craig From: david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:34:52 -0500 Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Are colour conversions really that complex? They're just converting colour coordinates in one colour-space to those in another, using some straightforward formulae that are hidden under the hood. (The choice of formula, and what to do if a colour is 'out of gamut', depends on the 'rendering intent', of which we usually have a choice of four). The conversions will give 'round-tripping' errors if they're out of gamut. This is why better Adobe software (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign) maps RGB and CMYK via a device-independent (LaB) representation, rather than straight from one to the other. The problem with FrameMaker is that the conversion algorithms it uses are crude rubbish. This is why they frequently give such awful results, not because it's complex. From previous threads on the Adobe Forums, it seems that the conversion formula Frame uses is: RGB to CMYK: C = max(R, G, B) - R M = max(R, G, B) - G Y = max(R, G, B) - B K = 100 - max(R, G, B) CMYK to RGB: R = min(100 - K - C, 0) G = min(100 - K - M, 0) B = min(100 - K - Y, 0) ...which gives rubbish results. David From: Jacob Sch?ffer (Grafikhuset) j...@grafikhuset.dk To: i...@heiko-haida.de, 'Craig Ede' craig...@hotmail.com Cc: 'framers' framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Message-ID: 00a601cfec93$39b38e10$ad1aaa30$@grafikhuset.dk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It?s definitely NOT easy to explain this. Color conversions are COMPLEX. Anyway, RGB - CMYK conversion is lossy, and CMYK - RGB is also lossy. What is the point of the RGB switch afterall? Why not just pass through what?s input and remove this switch? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as craig...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/craigede%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
So far as I know, the only reason to use CMYK on screen is for prepress work for something that's going to be professionally printed. So the only context I can think of where you'd care about accurate screen captures of CMYK images on screen would be if you were writing online help for InDesign, Illustrator, or Photoshop. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com wrote: Yes, I think color conversions are that complex. RGB was designed for monitors allowing a broad range of additive colors in the form of light (i.e. lit pixels). CMYK was designed for subtractive printing to paper offering a restricted range of those colors; many of the RGB colors being out of gamut for CMYK, meaning there is no formula to convert them. Nobody serious is printing high-quality hardcopy using R, G, and B inks. And I'm not sure why one would want to use CMYK to print to the screen. Craig From: david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 03:34:52 -0500 Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Are colour conversions really that complex? They're just converting colour coordinates in one colour-space to those in another, using some straightforward formulae that are hidden under the hood. (The choice of formula, and what to do if a colour is 'out of gamut', depends on the 'rendering intent', of which we usually have a choice of four). The conversions will give 'round-tripping' errors if they're out of gamut. This is why better Adobe software (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign) maps RGB and CMYK via a device-independent (LaB) representation, rather than straight from one to the other. The problem with FrameMaker is that the conversion algorithms it uses are crude rubbish. This is why they frequently give such awful results, not because it's complex. From previous threads on the Adobe Forums, it seems that the conversion formula Frame uses is: RGB to CMYK: C = max(R, G, B) - R M = max(R, G, B) - G Y = max(R, G, B) - B K = 100 - max(R, G, B) CMYK to RGB: R = min(100 - K - C, 0) G = min(100 - K - M, 0) B = min(100 - K - Y, 0) ...which gives rubbish results. David From: Jacob Sch?ffer (Grafikhuset) j...@grafikhuset.dk To: i...@heiko-haida.de, 'Craig Ede' craig...@hotmail.com Cc: 'framers' framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Message-ID: 00a601cfec93$39b38e10$ad1aaa30$@grafikhuset.dk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It?s definitely NOT easy to explain this. Color conversions are COMPLEX. Anyway, RGB - CMYK conversion is lossy, and CMYK - RGB is also lossy. What is the point of the RGB switch afterall? Why not just pass through what?s input and remove this switch? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as craig...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/craigede%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as rob...@lauriston.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/robert%40lauriston.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers
RE: . PDF query
Microsoft’s problem? – If you mean that FrameMaker utilises a near-obsolete Windows API that’s been around since the Windows 3.0 (or something like that), and Adobe (despite charging us for half a dozen expensive “new versions” in the intervening years) haven’t reauthored their software yet to work in a better way, then I agree ☺ *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Scott Turner [mailto:qui...@airmail.net] Sent: 20 October 2014 22:46 To: Davis, David Cc: Lin Sims; Böðvar Björgvinsson; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: . PDF query The reason this hasn't been fixed is that it's a Microsoft OS problem, not a FrameMaker problem. It's been made better, but Microsoft is still the culprit. Under the Apple OS, this was a non-problem because there was no translation from CMYK to RGB. They were separate attributes. On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:16, Davis, David david.da...@non.schneider-electric.commailto:david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com wrote: A recurring problem is that Dov Isaacs says something, and it’s repeated like a mantra by everyone for the next 15 years even when subsequent changes may have made that particular advice obsolete… But then we also have situation when Dov tells that the advice *is* still relevant, but for some reason it still hasn’t made it into the actual FrameMaker help files. I’m undecided as to which scenario is to more annoying ☺ From: Lin Sims [mailto:ljsims...@gmail.com] Sent: 20 October 2014 15:59 To: Böðvar Björgvinsson Cc: Davis, David; framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: . PDF query My recollection may be faulty, but I seem to recall Dov Isaacs saying the issues with Save As PDF had been fixed a while ago. Now if they can just fix the broken Esc keyboard shortcuts. Lin On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson bod...@gmail.commailto:bod...@gmail.com wrote: Since I started seriously learning FrameMaker (7.0) I have always been advised against using SaveAs PDF but instead print to file using whatever the name has been each version of the Adobe PostScript printer engine. Takes af few more clicks but saves a lot of trouble. Still do it several versions higher. Regards, Bodvar Bjorgvinsson *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.comhttp://invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.commailto:recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as qui...@airmail.netmailto:qui...@airmail.net. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/quills%40airmail.net Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.commailto:listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Try this thread for some exploration of these issues. I really do not think colour correctness of the monitor is the problem here. It's just that FrameMaker's colour handling hasn't been updated since about 1988... https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1495005 Message: 7 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 08:35:13 -0500 From: Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com To: i...@heiko-haida.de i...@heiko-haida.de, framers framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Message-ID: blu178-w356587e62833bd2edce694d5...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Given the theoretical differences I'm not sure why you would expect RGB output of CMYK colors to be close to what CMYK color should looks like. Think of it this way, if you choose a Pantone color as a spot color, you'd expect it to print exactly like as that Pantone color to paper. But to the screen, who knows? It's be close but depends on the color correctness of the particular monitor. Craig *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: . PDF query
Dennis, You're not the first person to report this problem. I doubt you're doing anything wrong, it's just FrameMaker being buggy. I'd encourage you to report it at Adobe's bug report page https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:31:14 + From: Denis Daly d.d...@icpnewtech.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: PDF query Message-ID: e2684a3ed8374ac79e0450223f494...@am3pr01mb0646.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, My name is Denis Daly. I have recently started using FrameMaker. I have had an odd issue today. I saved an individual chapter as a PDF and about 40% of the images were not present. They are available in the 'Graphics' folder. I resaved and the same thing happened. I then saved a third time but selected RGB instead of CYMK; all images were present. I am using FM 12 with the recent update installed. Can anyone explain this behaviour, please? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: PDF query
Indeed - A pity none of these experts ever manage to get their expert opinion manifested in the FrameMaker user guide / online help, though! David Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:31:08 -0500 From: Mike Wickham i...@mikewickham.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: PDF query Message-ID: 5441d0ec.60...@mikewickham.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. Mike Wickham On 10/17/2014 4:46 PM, Lin Sims wrote: Frame to PDF used to be the gold standard for PDF production. :( *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: . PDF query
Thanks to everyone who replied. I appreciate all your comments. I will report the issue to Adobe as recommended by David Davis. I have just saved the Book as a PDF (RGB selected) and all the images and text appear to be present. We will eventually wish to send to a print company though. I hope Adobe are able to fix this bug. In the meantime I will investigate the .ai issue and see if that is causing my problem. Thanks again, Denis -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Davis, David Sent: 20 October 2014 08:56 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: . PDF query Dennis, You're not the first person to report this problem. I doubt you're doing anything wrong, it's just FrameMaker being buggy. I'd encourage you to report it at Adobe's bug report page https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:31:14 + From: Denis Daly d.d...@icpnewtech.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: PDF query Message-ID: e2684a3ed8374ac79e0450223f494...@am3pr01mb0646.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, My name is Denis Daly. I have recently started using FrameMaker. I have had an odd issue today. I saved an individual chapter as a PDF and about 40% of the images were not present. They are available in the 'Graphics' folder. I resaved and the same thing happened. I then saved a third time but selected RGB instead of CYMK; all images were present. I am using FM 12 with the recent update installed. Can anyone explain this behaviour, please? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as d.d...@icpnewtech.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/d.daly%40icpnewtech.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Given the theoretical differences I'm not sure why you would expect RGB output of CMYK colors to be close to what CMYK color should looks like. Think of it this way, if you choose a Pantone color as a spot color, you'd expect it to print exactly like as that Pantone color to paper. But to the screen, who knows? It's be close but depends on the color correctness of the particular monitor. Craig Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 03:07:58 +0200 whatever the theoretical and technical differences of RGB and CMYK colours are: The FrameMaker RGB output of CMYK-colours is not even close to how the CMYK output looks like. I am (still) using FM 10, btw. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Well, Craig, thats easy to explain: When I use Illustrator or Indesign, a colour will not change its screen representation if I switch from CMYK definition to RGB definition. That is not a miracle or a question of who knows (these programs use HSB definitions, and obviously the conversion works very well). With FrameMaker, on the other hand, a CMYK colour will not look right neither on screen nor in the resulting PDF. And only with the CMYK print option activated that has been implemented successfully with FM 10, this colour information will be transfered to the PDF correctly. Best regards - Tino H. Haida, Berlin Craig Ede: Given the theoretical differences I'm not sure why you would expect RGB output of CMYK colors to be close to what CMYK color should looks like. Think of it this way, if you choose a Pantone color as a spot color, you'd expect it to print exactly like as that Pantone color to paper. But to the screen, who knows? It's be close but depends on the color correctness of the particular monitor. Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: . PDF query
Since I started seriously learning FrameMaker (7.0) I have always been advised against using SaveAs PDF but instead print to file using whatever the name has been each version of the Adobe PostScript printer engine. Takes af few more clicks but saves a lot of trouble. Still do it several versions higher. Regards, Bodvar Bjorgvinsson On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Davis, David david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com wrote: Dennis, You're not the first person to report this problem. I doubt you're doing anything wrong, it's just FrameMaker being buggy. I'd encourage you to report it at Adobe's bug report page https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:31:14 + From: Denis Daly d.d...@icpnewtech.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: PDF query Message-ID: e2684a3ed8374ac79e0450223f494...@am3pr01mb0646.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, My name is Denis Daly. I have recently started using FrameMaker. I have had an odd issue today. I saved an individual chapter as a PDF and about 40% of the images were not present. They are available in the 'Graphics' folder. I resaved and the same thing happened. I then saved a third time but selected RGB instead of CYMK; all images were present. I am using FM 12 with the recent update installed. Can anyone explain this behaviour, please? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as bod...@gmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bodvar%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: . PDF query
On 10/20/2014 3:33 AM, Denis Daly wrote: We will eventually wish to send to a print company though. I hope Adobe are able to fix this bug. Here are a few tips if you plan to send to a print company: 1. Use EPS or PDF graphics. FrameMaker normally passes everything through the Windows GDI, which converts CMYK graphics back to RGB. EPS and PDF graphics are passed around the GDI, unchanged. 2. In maker.ini, set GetLibraryColorRGBFromCMYK=None. This gives the best match of screen and PDF colors. 3. In Distiller, check the color management settings of your PDF Preset (.joboptions file). For Settings Edit Adobe PDF Settings Color Tab Color Management Policies, do not set Tag Everything for Color Management. This can cause text to print as four colors instead of black only. Hope that helps. Mike Wickham ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: . PDF query
My recollection may be faulty, but I seem to recall Dov Isaacs saying the issues with Save As PDF had been fixed a while ago. Now if they can just fix the broken Esc keyboard shortcuts. Lin On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson bod...@gmail.com wrote: Since I started seriously learning FrameMaker (7.0) I have always been advised against using SaveAs PDF but instead print to file using whatever the name has been each version of the Adobe PostScript printer engine. Takes af few more clicks but saves a lot of trouble. Still do it several versions higher. Regards, Bodvar Bjorgvinsson On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Davis, David david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com wrote: Dennis, You're not the first person to report this problem. I doubt you're doing anything wrong, it's just FrameMaker being buggy. I'd encourage you to report it at Adobe's bug report page https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:31:14 + From: Denis Daly d.d...@icpnewtech.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: PDF query Message-ID: e2684a3ed8374ac79e0450223f494...@am3pr01mb0646.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, My name is Denis Daly. I have recently started using FrameMaker. I have had an odd issue today. I saved an individual chapter as a PDF and about 40% of the images were not present. They are available in the 'Graphics' folder. I resaved and the same thing happened. I then saved a third time but selected RGB instead of CYMK; all images were present. I am using FM 12 with the recent update installed. Can anyone explain this behaviour, please? *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as bod...@gmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bodvar%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as ljsims...@gmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/ljsims.ml%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. -- Lin Sims ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: . PDF query
A recurring problem is that Dov Isaacs says something, and it’s repeated like a mantra by everyone for the next 15 years even when subsequent changes may have made that particular advice obsolete… But then we also have situation when Dov tells that the advice *is* still relevant, but for some reason it still hasn’t made it into the actual FrameMaker help files. I’m undecided as to which scenario is to more annoying ☺ From: Lin Sims [mailto:ljsims...@gmail.com] Sent: 20 October 2014 15:59 To: Böðvar Björgvinsson Cc: Davis, David; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: . PDF query My recollection may be faulty, but I seem to recall Dov Isaacs saying the issues with Save As PDF had been fixed a while ago. Now if they can just fix the broken Esc keyboard shortcuts. Lin On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson bod...@gmail.commailto:bod...@gmail.com wrote: Since I started seriously learning FrameMaker (7.0) I have always been advised against using SaveAs PDF but instead print to file using whatever the name has been each version of the Adobe PostScript printer engine. Takes af few more clicks but saves a lot of trouble. Still do it several versions higher. Regards, Bodvar Bjorgvinsson *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
It’s definitely NOT easy to explain this. Color conversions are COMPLEX. Anyway, RGB - CMYK conversion is lossy, and CMYK - RGB is also lossy. What is the point of the RGB switch afterall? Why not just pass through what’s input and remove this switch? Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer _ Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Mobile: +45 2021 1958 Phone: +45 4848 0096 Email: mailto:j...@grafikhuset.dk j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: http://design.grafikhuset.dk/ http://design.grafikhuset.dk From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Heiko Haida Sent: 20. oktober 2014 16:22 To: Craig Ede Cc: framers Subject: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Well, Craig, thats easy to explain: When I use Illustrator or Indesign, a colour will not change its screen representation if I switch from CMYK definition to RGB definition. That is not a miracle or a question of who knows (these programs use HSB definitions, and obviously the conversion works very well). With FrameMaker, on the other hand, a CMYK colour will not look right neither on screen nor in the resulting PDF. And only with the CMYK print option activated that has been implemented successfully with FM 10, this colour information will be transfered to the PDF correctly. Best regards - Tino H. Haida, Berlin Craig Ede: Given the theoretical differences I'm not sure why you would expect RGB output of CMYK colors to be close to what CMYK color should looks like. Think of it this way, if you choose a Pantone color as a spot color, you'd expect it to print exactly like as that Pantone color to paper. But to the screen, who knows? It's be close but depends on the color correctness of the particular monitor. Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Hi Jacob, my point here is: The CMYK option in FM is not something like a fancy gadget (that is how I understood what Craig said earlier), but essential for a correct colour representation in certain constellations. Here is an example, I enclose a screenshot: 2 rectangular objects are visible, with colours defined as CMYK = 100/70/0/0 and 100/0/20/20. To the left, that is the (correct) representation in Illustrator. To the right, thats what it looks like in FrameMaker (obviously not correct). In the middle that is the PDF output with the CMYK option not activated (which is the standard - and only possible - behaviour of all older FM version up to FM 10). With the CMYK option activated on the other hand, the PDF output would in fact look exactly like in Illustrator. And if this PDF is converted afterwards to RGB via Acrobat preflight, the colours would still be perfect on screen. If you know a better or easier way or working settings for FM or Acrobat, please tell me. Best regards - Tino H. Haida, Berlin Jacob Schäffer: It's definitely NOT easy to explain this. Color conversions are COMPLEX. Anyway, RGB - CMYK conversion is lossy, and CMYK - RGB is also lossy. What is the point of the RGB switch afterall? Why not just pass through what's input and remove this switch? Best regards / Med venlig hilsen Jacob Schäffer | Chief Developer - Grafikhuset (House of Graphics) Paradis Allé 22, Ramløse DK-3200 Helsinge, Denmark Mobile: +45 2021 1958 Phone: +45 4848 0096 Email: j...@grafikhuset.dk Web: http://design.grafikhuset.dk [1] FROM: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] ON BEHALF OF Heiko Haida SENT: 20. oktober 2014 16:22 TO: Craig Ede CC: framers SUBJECT: RE: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query Well, Craig, thats easy to explain: When I use Illustrator or Indesign, a colour will not change its screen representation if I switch from CMYK definition to RGB definition. That is not a miracle or a question of who knows (these programs use HSB definitions, and obviously the conversion works very well). With FrameMaker, on the other hand, a CMYK colour will not look right neither on screen nor in the resulting PDF. And only with the CMYK print option activated that has been implemented successfully with FM 10, this colour information will be transfered to the PDF correctly. Best regards - Tino H. Haida, Berlin Craig Ede: Given the theoretical differences I'm not sure why you would expect RGB output of CMYK colors to be close to what CMYK color should looks like. Think of it this way, if you choose a Pantone color as a spot color, you'd expect it to print exactly like as that Pantone color to paper. But to the screen, who knows? It's be close but depends on the color correctness of the particular monitor. Craig Links: -- [1] http://design.grafikhuset.dk/ ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: . PDF query
The reason this hasn't been fixed is that it's a Microsoft OS problem, not a FrameMaker problem. It's been made better, but Microsoft is still the culprit. Under the Apple OS, this was a non-problem because there was no translation from CMYK to RGB. They were separate attributes. On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:16, Davis, David david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com wrote: A recurring problem is that Dov Isaacs says something, and it’s repeated like a mantra by everyone for the next 15 years even when subsequent changes may have made that particular advice obsolete… But then we also have situation when Dov tells that the advice *is* still relevant, but for some reason it still hasn’t made it into the actual FrameMaker help files. I’m undecided as to which scenario is to more annoying J From: Lin Sims [mailto:ljsims...@gmail.com] Sent: 20 October 2014 15:59 To: Böðvar Björgvinsson Cc: Davis, David; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: . PDF query My recollection may be faulty, but I seem to recall Dov Isaacs saying the issues with Save As PDF had been fixed a while ago. Now if they can just fix the broken Esc keyboard shortcuts. Lin On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson bod...@gmail.com wrote: Since I started seriously learning FrameMaker (7.0) I have always been advised against using SaveAs PDF but instead print to file using whatever the name has been each version of the Adobe PostScript printer engine. Takes af few more clicks but saves a lot of trouble. Still do it several versions higher. Regards, Bodvar Bjorgvinsson *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group. You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as qui...@airmail.net. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/quills%40airmail.net Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: FM as PDF gold standard RE: PDF query
I remember that one, but that affected text in main text flows, didn't it? Really annoying; but that never really plagued me so I must have applied the hot-fix pretty early on. At the time I had the dropped caption problem I remember thinking: You'd think Adobe could make products that work with other Adobe products; but then, what's Microsoft's excuse since it has had so many problems having it's productivity software work as described with its own operating system. I think software is just hard. Craig -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:40 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: FM as PDF gold standard RE: PDF query Craig, It sounds like you got hit with the Windows XP bug that caused intermittent, unexplained dropping of text in PDFs. As I recall, the problem was with the MS Postscript processor. There was a Microsoft hotfix issued to deal with it. At the time, the problem and fix were pretty well known on this forum. Mike Wickham On 10/18/2014 11:51 AM, Craig Ede wrote: Not to burst anybody's bubble, but even back in the fondly remembered Golden Age of FrameMaker (circa 5.5-7.0) PDF could be faulty. I had dropped captions there was no explanation for in tabloid printouts heavy in graphics. Pretty simple stuff, a set of 16 graphics each inhabiting an eight of a single sheet (double-sided), each having a short title caption in a text box below it (below being relative to the image orientation). Somehow one caption would just fail to print. All you folks still living in the Golden Age; give that a try. My guess was that it some kind of buffering issue that dropped things after a certain size was reached. It never affected the graphics, just the text. (If memory serves, the issue may also have be related to whether the text box was rotated, but the Golden Age is so long ago now I'm not sure about that.) Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as craig...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/craigede%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Do you need the CMYK option checked? (In other words, are you sending your PDF out to a service bureau using a high-quality printer so it can be printed and bound? That's usually why people are checking the CMYK option.) From some of the discussion here, I get the idea that people think CMYK is just something you pick on a whim. And in response to an earlier comment that CMYK affects color vividness in the PDF, that happens because CMYK is limited to producing colors by mixing printing inks (a subtractive process that is quite different from the additive mixing of pixels on the screen, i.e. RGB). Additive mixing produces white by its max values (256,256,256). Mixing C, M, and Y inks at max values produces black (albeit not a lovely black, which is why the K is there). If your PDF is only going to the screen or a cheap printer (with minimal control of the color space desired), then RGB is fine and choosing CMYK is really not a smart idea since it takes much longer to distill and would have little or no benefit. Craig P.S. Forgive any simplifications in the above. CMYK printing is a rather complex issue. P.P.S. The color space that can be produced by Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and K (black) printing inks on paper is much more restricted than the color space produced by RGB pixels on a computer screen. If you've ever mixed watercolor paint you know that you can't mix colors with pigment that result in colors that are lighter or more vivid than the colors you start with. Any mixing reduces both the value (lightness/darkness) as well as the vividness (saturation) of the color. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 6:32 PM To: Robert Lauriston; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: PDF query Same here with Save as PDF, except that with FM 12, it seems that I also need to select the RGB checkbox option to make it work correctly. The CMYK option does _not_ work properly. I will see if I can find the test documents I sent to Adobe and post them here later ... Z Robert Lauriston said: At least from FM6 on, I had zero problems with Save as PDF so long as Distiller / Adobe PDF was selected as the printer and I used the same file name as the .book I was saving. Mike Wickham wrote: Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as craig...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/craigede%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: CMYK vs RGB RE: PDF query
Hi Craig, whatever the theoretical and technical differences of RGB and CMYK colours are: The FrameMaker RGB output of CMYK-colours is not even close to how the CMYK output looks like. I am (still) using FM 10, btw. Therefore I always produce CMYK pdfs first and use Acrobat preflighting to get correct RGB pdfs (even if these pdfs are only for the screen). The other way round would not work at all: The interpretation of colours in the RGB output by FrameMaker is quite strange (a colleague who only uses Indesign called these colours tawdry). I am very glad that FM 10 (unlike FM 12) still seems to work with my CMYK graphic files and CMYK colours. I hope that as part of the Adobe products family, FrameMaker will soon be able to handle colours like Indesign does, with colour profiles and direct (error-free) PDF-X3/PDF-X4 compatible output. Best regards - Tino H. Haida, Berlin Craig Ede: Do you need the CMYK option checked? (In other words, are you sending your PDF out to a service bureau using a high-quality printer so it can be printed and bound? That's usually why people are checking the CMYK option.) From some of the discussion here, I get the idea that people think CMYK is just something you pick on a whim. And in response to an earlier comment that CMYK affects color vividness in the PDF, that happens because CMYK is limited to producing colors by mixing printing inks (a subtractive process that is quite different from the additive mixing of pixels on the screen, i.e. RGB). Additive mixing produces white by its max values (256,256,256). Mixing C, M, and Y inks at max values produces black (albeit not a lovely black, which is why the K is there). If your PDF is only going to the screen or a cheap printer (with minimal control of the color space desired), then RGB is fine and choosing CMYK is really not a smart idea since it takes much longer to distill and would have little or no benefit. Craig P.S. Forgive any simplifications in the above. CMYK printing is a rather complex issue. P.P.S. The color space that can be produced by Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and K (black) printing inks on paper is much more restricted than the color space produced by RGB pixels on a computer screen. If you've ever mixed watercolor paint you know that you can't mix colors with pigment that result in colors that are lighter or more vivid than the colors you start with. Any mixing reduces both the value (lightness/darkness) as well as the vividness (saturation) of the color. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 6:32 PM To: Robert Lauriston; framers@lists.frameusers.comSubject: RE: PDF query Same here with Save as PDF, except that with FM 12, it seems that I also need to select the RGB checkbox option to make it work correctly. The CMYK option does _not_ work properly. I will see if I can find the test documents I sent to Adobe and post them here later ... Z Robert Lauriston said: At least from FM6 on, I had zero problems with Save as PDF so long as Distiller / Adobe PDF was selected as the printer and I used the same file name as the .book I was saving. Mike Wickham wrote: Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: PDF query
Yeah, that was the general recommendation, but I always found it to be better the other way (i.e., Save to PDF gave me the output I wanted) ... YMMV, I guess. Anyway, I take Lins comment to be more of a more observation - that FrameMaker as a tool created the best PDF output. Now, fwiw, the only method that works (without thorough checking yet though) for me is Save to PDF with the RGB check box option. :( Z -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 7:31 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: PDF query Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. Mike Wickham On 10/17/2014 4:46 PM, Lin Sims wrote: Frame to PDF used to be the gold standard for PDF production. :( ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
FM as PDF gold standard RE: PDF query
Not to burst anybody's bubble, but even back in the fondly remembered Golden Age of FrameMaker (circa 5.5-7.0) PDF could be faulty. I had dropped captions there was no explanation for in tabloid printouts heavy in graphics. Pretty simple stuff, a set of 16 graphics each inhabiting an eight of a single sheet (double-sided), each having a short title caption in a text box below it (below being relative to the image orientation). Somehow one caption would just fail to print. All you folks still living in the Golden Age; give that a try. My guess was that it some kind of buffering issue that dropped things after a certain size was reached. It never affected the graphics, just the text. (If memory serves, the issue may also have be related to whether the text box was rotated, but the Golden Age is so long ago now I'm not sure about that.) Craig -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 9:31 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: PDF query Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. Mike Wickham On 10/17/2014 4:46 PM, Lin Sims wrote: Frame to PDF used to be the gold standard for PDF production. :( ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as craig...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/craigede%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: FM as PDF gold standard RE: PDF query
Craig, It sounds like you got hit with the Windows XP bug that caused intermittent, unexplained dropping of text in PDFs. As I recall, the problem was with the MS Postscript processor. There was a Microsoft hotfix issued to deal with it. At the time, the problem and fix were pretty well known on this forum. Mike Wickham On 10/18/2014 11:51 AM, Craig Ede wrote: Not to burst anybody's bubble, but even back in the fondly remembered Golden Age of FrameMaker (circa 5.5-7.0) PDF could be faulty. I had dropped captions there was no explanation for in tabloid printouts heavy in graphics. Pretty simple stuff, a set of 16 graphics each inhabiting an eight of a single sheet (double-sided), each having a short title caption in a text box below it (below being relative to the image orientation). Somehow one caption would just fail to print. All you folks still living in the Golden Age; give that a try. My guess was that it some kind of buffering issue that dropped things after a certain size was reached. It never affected the graphics, just the text. (If memory serves, the issue may also have be related to whether the text box was rotated, but the Golden Age is so long ago now I'm not sure about that.) Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: PDF query
At least from FM6 on, I had zero problems with Save as PDF so long as Distiller / Adobe PDF was selected as the printer and I used the same file name as the .book I was saving. On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Mike Wickham i...@mikewickham.com wrote: Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: PDF query
Same here with Save as PDF, except that with FM 12, it seems that I also need to select the RGB checkbox option to make it work correctly. The CMYK option does _not_ work properly. I will see if I can find the test documents I sent to Adobe and post them here later ... Z Robert Lauriston said: At least from FM6 on, I had zero problems with Save as PDF so long as Distiller / Adobe PDF was selected as the printer and I used the same file name as the .book I was saving. Mike Wickham wrote: Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: PDF query
I reported a similar issue a short while back (wasn't just images though - it has problems with font colors, italic text messing up kerning and spacing, etc.). The response from an Adobe person here was that the Save as PDF using CMYK has a bug (that they have been able to reproduce). No fix indication yet. Anyway, I have also experienced problems with printing to the Adobe PDF printer driver, so I am using Save as PDF to RGB for the moment for all my review work. I plan to check the final PDF thoroughly before I send it out ... because I am not just comfortable with the quality of PDF generation from FrameMaker at this point. Z From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Denis Daly Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 5:31 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: PDF query Hi, My name is Denis Daly. I have recently started using FrameMaker. I have had an odd issue today. I saved an individual chapter as a PDF and about 40% of the images were not present. They are available in the 'Graphics' folder. I resaved and the same thing happened. I then saved a third time but selected RGB instead of CYMK; all images were present. I am using FM 12 with the recent update installed. Can anyone explain this behaviour, please? Kind regards, Denis Daly Technical Writer [cid:image001.jpg@01CFEA04.A19B44F0] Kilbrittain, Bandon, Co. Cork, IRELANDhttp://www.myloc8ion.com/index.php/maps/find_code8/?code=WLF-17-68G Mobile: +353 86 3539962 Phone: +353 21 2439119/140 Fax: +353 21 2380559 Info: www.icpnewtech.comhttp://www.icpnewtech.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: PDF query
Actually, Frame print to PDF was the gold standard. Save as PDF was so buggy that all experts recommended against using it. Mike Wickham On 10/17/2014 4:46 PM, Lin Sims wrote: Frame to PDF used to be the gold standard for PDF production. :( ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
