VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Joseph, Hi, seems Visio graphics are the flavour of the month :) Just to summarise what has been said on the list over the last couple of weeks. 1. Visio uses an internal file format and is not a graphics format, as such 2. Visio native files are best not used in FM 3. The Visio files then need to be exported in some suitable format. Now, relating to your specific enquiry: 4. The standard output formats that Visio uses are problematic for a number of reasons: 4a. PNG is a raster image format, meaning that it uses pixels to create an image and is therefore going to print as a pixellated image. It was only ever intended that this image format was to be used onscreen, not for print purposes. So onscreen it will probably look ok but printed, pretty bad (and sure, someone will chime in and say "hey mine are ok" which won't help you); 4b. WMF supports both raster and vector based art but the format is not well documented and specific files, for example from Visio, may have inclusions that create problems when the file is printed. For example, stray lines appearing between vectors, or fonts that are not correctly specified in the WMF file and display incorrectly when printed. In general, and depending on your situation, WMF is ok. However it is not guaranteable that WMF will always work. 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. Alan -- Alan Litchfield MBus (Hons), MNZCS AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Yeah. I took a double take on what Art said too. So does that mean that Adobe have buggered up the pdf output engine? Or is it that the nested pdfs already contain RGB colour definitions and those are carried through to the final output, in the same way that eps acts as a wrapper for the postscript colour definitions in images? Perhaps Art could flight check the pdf images he used and confirm whether they only contain spot, cmyk, or rgb, or some combination. Then say if those are transformed when output from FM. Alan Lea Rush wrote: > Please see below: > >> -Original Message- >> >> Alan Litchfield wrote: >> > > > >> > 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, > is >> > to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. >> > >> > Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. >> >> What he said! > > > >> Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have >> Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's >> always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports >> nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its >> less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. >> >> Richard > > Is there a way to reconcile this advice with what Art just posted? > >> In 9, using SaveAs to create a PDF with CMYK works, EXCEPT when the FM > file >> contains embedded PDFs -- in effect, nesting the PDFs. >> >> So it's partially whacked, but if you don't nest PDFs as imported graphics > in FM, it >> works. > > Hoping for a solution, > Lea > -- Alan Litchfield MBus (Hons), MNZCS AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Lea, The bug that I passed along the info on is a result of using SaveAs PDF from FM 9, which is intended to generate clean CMYK. As reported, IF the Frame file contains PDFs already, it doesn't work well. The work-around, until a patch is released to fix it, is to embed another file format such as EPS, which apparently works fine. Art Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Lea Rush wrote: > Please see below: > > > -Original Message- > > > > Alan Litchfield wrote: > > > > > > > > 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, > is > > > to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. > > > > > > Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. > > > > What he said! > > > > > Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have > > Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's > > always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports > > nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its > > less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. > > > > Richard > > Is there a way to reconcile this advice with what Art just posted? > > > In 9, using SaveAs to create a PDF with CMYK works, EXCEPT when the FM > file > > contains embedded PDFs -- in effect, nesting the PDFs. > > > > So it's partially whacked, but if you don't nest PDFs as imported > graphics > in FM, it > > works. > > Hoping for a solution, > Lea > > _ > > Lea Rush > Software and Documentation Specialist > Astoria-Pacific International > PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 > PH: 800-657-3010 > FAX: 503-655-7367 > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >
Re: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
In Visio 2007, you get a dialog box when you SaveAs PNG. I set the resolution to 240 or so -- the pixilation is likely to show up if you accept the default setting of Screen. In any case, try boosting the resolution. AND... does anything else look poor in the PDF? If so, you may want to look at your job options for compressing graphics and dial them down. Art Campbell art.campb...@gmail.com ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Joseph panoptico...@gmail.com wrote: Several of the documents I work on use Visio drawings. I save the Visio drawings as PNGs and then import the PNGs into FrameMaker. When I print the frame book as a PDF, the PNG looks horribly pixellated. On the other hand, when I save the Visio drawing as a WMF and use that WMF in FrameMaker, there is almost no pixellation when I print to PDF. I am not sure what the problem is here. I would much rather use PNGs, but not if they are so pixellated they are almost impossible to view in a PDF. Is it how Visio saves PNGs, or my settings (e.g. screen res, settings in viso for saving the graphic), or how FrameMaker is processing the PNG when printing to PDF? If there is anyone who successfully exports Visio drawings to PNG and then imports them into FrameMaker, what settings do you use for your computer, in Visio, and in Frame? -- Sincerely, Joseph Lorenzini ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
WMF is a vector format based on Windows GDI. That's why it looks smooth and is certainly preferable to PNG which is raster and for print purposes, unless you go to 600dpi or more for Visio vector style drawing, PNG will look cruddy! Be careful with WMF, though! Sometimes text doesn't make it through WMF successfully and Visio's WMF export is not stellar by any means. - Dov -Original Message- From: Joseph Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:09 AM Several of the documents I work on use Visio drawings. I save the Visio drawings as PNGs and then import the PNGs into FrameMaker. When I print the frame book as a PDF, the PNG looks horribly pixellated. On the other hand, when I save the Visio drawing as a WMF and use that WMF in FrameMaker, there is almost no pixellation when I print to PDF. I am not sure what the problem is here. I would much rather use PNGs, but not if they are so pixellated they are almost impossible to view in a PDF. Is it how Visio saves PNGs, or my settings (e.g. screen res, settings in viso for saving the graphic), or how FrameMaker is processing the PNG when printing to PDF? If there is anyone who successfully exports Visio drawings to PNG and then imports them into FrameMaker, what settings do you use for your computer, in Visio, and in Frame? -- Sincerely, Joseph Lorenzini ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Joseph, Hi, seems Visio graphics are the flavour of the month :) Just to summarise what has been said on the list over the last couple of weeks. 1. Visio uses an internal file format and is not a graphics format, as such 2. Visio native files are best not used in FM 3. The Visio files then need to be exported in some suitable format. Now, relating to your specific enquiry: 4. The standard output formats that Visio uses are problematic for a number of reasons: 4a. PNG is a raster image format, meaning that it uses pixels to create an image and is therefore going to print as a pixellated image. It was only ever intended that this image format was to be used onscreen, not for print purposes. So onscreen it will probably look ok but printed, pretty bad (and sure, someone will chime in and say hey mine are ok which won't help you); 4b. WMF supports both raster and vector based art but the format is not well documented and specific files, for example from Visio, may have inclusions that create problems when the file is printed. For example, stray lines appearing between vectors, or fonts that are not correctly specified in the WMF file and display incorrectly when printed. In general, and depending on your situation, WMF is ok. However it is not guaranteable that WMF will always work. 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. Alan -- Alan Litchfield MBus (Hons), MNZCS AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Alan Litchfield wrote: Just to summarise what has been said on the list over the last couple of weeks. 1. Visio uses an internal file format and is not a graphics format, as such 2. Visio native files are best not used in FM 3. The Visio files then need to be exported in some suitable format. Now, relating to your specific enquiry: 4. The standard output formats that Visio uses are problematic for a number of reasons: 4a. PNG is a raster image format, meaning that it uses pixels to create an image and is therefore going to print as a pixellated image. It was only ever intended that this image format was to be used onscreen, not for print purposes. So onscreen it will probably look ok but printed, pretty bad (and sure, someone will chime in and say hey mine are ok which won't help you); 4b. WMF supports both raster and vector based art but the format is not well documented and specific files, for example from Visio, may have inclusions that create problems when the file is printed. For example, stray lines appearing between vectors, or fonts that are not correctly specified in the WMF file and display incorrectly when printed. In general, and depending on your situation, WMF is ok. However it is not guaranteable that WMF will always work. 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. What he said! Joseph, I strongly recommend learning about the differences between raster (or bitmap) graphics and scalable vector graphics, and which file formats are which. Don't convert the latter into the former if it's at all avoidable. Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Please see below: -Original Message- Alan Litchfield wrote: snip 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. What he said! snip Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. Richard Is there a way to reconcile this advice with what Art just posted? In 9, using SaveAs to create a PDF with CMYK works, EXCEPT when the FM file contains embedded PDFs -- in effect, nesting the PDFs. So it's partially whacked, but if you don't nest PDFs as imported graphics in FM, it works. Hoping for a solution, Lea _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Yeah. I took a double take on what Art said too. So does that mean that Adobe have buggered up the pdf output engine? Or is it that the nested pdfs already contain RGB colour definitions and those are carried through to the final output, in the same way that eps acts as a wrapper for the postscript colour definitions in images? Perhaps Art could flight check the pdf images he used and confirm whether they only contain spot, cmyk, or rgb, or some combination. Then say if those are transformed when output from FM. Alan Lea Rush wrote: Please see below: -Original Message- Alan Litchfield wrote: snip 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. What he said! snip Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. Richard Is there a way to reconcile this advice with what Art just posted? In 9, using SaveAs to create a PDF with CMYK works, EXCEPT when the FM file contains embedded PDFs -- in effect, nesting the PDFs. So it's partially whacked, but if you don't nest PDFs as imported graphics in FM, it works. Hoping for a solution, Lea -- Alan Litchfield MBus (Hons), MNZCS AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Alan Litchfield wrote: Yeah. I took a double take on what Art said too. So does that mean that Adobe have buggered up the pdf output engine? Or is it that the nested pdfs already contain RGB colour definitions and those are carried through to the final output, in the same way that eps acts as a wrapper for the postscript colour definitions in images? The latter explanation sounds highly likely, but only testing will tell. That said, it doesn't affect my use of PDFs from Visio (my deliverables are PDFs, not print) -- which is a good thing, because I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that PDFs made from Visio are RGB. Leah, if you need CMYK PDFs from Visio (or most Windows apps), I suspect the solution is the Publi PDF software described yesterday afternoon by Jacob Schäffer of Grafikhuset (www.grafikhuset.net). Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Several of the documents I work on use Visio drawings. I save the Visio drawings as PNGs and then import the PNGs into FrameMaker. When I print the frame book as a PDF, the PNG looks horribly pixellated. On the other hand, when I save the Visio drawing as a WMF and use that WMF in FrameMaker, there is almost no pixellation when I print to PDF. I am not sure what the problem is here. I would much rather use PNGs, but not if they are so pixellated they are almost impossible to view in a PDF. Is it how Visio saves PNGs, or my settings (e.g. screen res, settings in viso for saving the graphic), or how FrameMaker is processing the PNG when printing to PDF? If there is anyone who successfully exports Visio drawings to PNG and then imports them into FrameMaker, what settings do you use for your computer, in Visio, and in Frame? -- Sincerely, Joseph Lorenzini
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
In Visio 2007, you get a dialog box when you SaveAs PNG. I set the resolution to 240 or so -- the pixilation is likely to show up if you accept the default setting of Screen. In any case, try boosting the resolution. AND... does anything else look poor in the PDF? If so, you may want to look at your job options for compressing graphics and dial them down. Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Joseph wrote: > Several of the documents I work on use Visio drawings. I save the Visio > drawings as PNGs and then import the PNGs into FrameMaker. When I print the > frame book as a PDF, the PNG looks horribly pixellated. > > On the other hand, when I save the Visio drawing as a WMF and use that WMF > in FrameMaker, there is almost no pixellation when I print to PDF. > > I am not sure what the problem is here. I would much rather use PNGs, but > not if they are so pixellated they are almost impossible to view in a PDF. > Is it how Visio saves PNGs, or my settings (e.g. screen res, settings in > viso for saving the graphic), or how FrameMaker is processing the PNG when > printing to PDF? > > If there is anyone who successfully exports Visio drawings to PNG and then > imports them into FrameMaker, what settings do you use for your computer, > in > Visio, and in Frame? > > -- > Sincerely, > > Joseph Lorenzini > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
WMF is a vector format based on Windows GDI. That's why it looks smooth and is certainly preferable to PNG which is raster and for print purposes, unless you go to 600dpi or more for Visio vector style drawing, PNG will look cruddy! Be careful with WMF, though! Sometimes text doesn't make it "through" WMF successfully and Visio's WMF export is not stellar by any means. - Dov > -Original Message- > From: Joseph > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:09 AM > > Several of the documents I work on use Visio drawings. I save the Visio > drawings as PNGs and then import the PNGs into FrameMaker. When I print the > frame book as a PDF, the PNG looks horribly pixellated. > > On the other hand, when I save the Visio drawing as a WMF and use that WMF > in FrameMaker, there is almost no pixellation when I print to PDF. > > I am not sure what the problem is here. I would much rather use PNGs, but > not if they are so pixellated they are almost impossible to view in a PDF. > Is it how Visio saves PNGs, or my settings (e.g. screen res, settings in > viso for saving the graphic), or how FrameMaker is processing the PNG when > printing to PDF? > > If there is anyone who successfully exports Visio drawings to PNG and then > imports them into FrameMaker, what settings do you use for your computer, in > Visio, and in Frame? > > -- > Sincerely, > > Joseph Lorenzini
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Alan Litchfield wrote: > Just to summarise what has been said on the list over the last couple of > weeks. > > 1. Visio uses an internal file format and is not a graphics format, as such > 2. Visio native files are best not used in FM > 3. The Visio files then need to be exported in some suitable format. > > Now, relating to your specific enquiry: > > 4. The standard output formats that Visio uses are problematic for a number > of > reasons: > 4a. PNG is a raster image format, meaning that it uses pixels to create an > image and is therefore going to print as a pixellated image. It was only > ever > intended that this image format was to be used onscreen, not for print > purposes. So onscreen it will probably look ok but printed, pretty bad (and > sure, someone will chime in and say "hey mine are ok" which won't help > you); > 4b. WMF supports both raster and vector based art but the format is not > well > documented and specific files, for example from Visio, may have inclusions > that create problems when the file is printed. For example, stray lines > appearing between vectors, or fonts that are not correctly specified in the > WMF file and display incorrectly when printed. In general, and depending on > your situation, WMF is ok. However it is not guaranteable that WMF will > always > work. > 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is > to > print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. > > Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. What he said! Joseph, I strongly recommend learning about the differences between raster (or bitmap) graphics and scalable vector graphics, and which file formats are which. Don't convert the latter into the former if it's at all avoidable. Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 --
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Please see below: > -Original Message- > > Alan Litchfield wrote: > > > 5. So, what has been suggested on this list, and is an approach I use, is > > to print your Visio file to PDF and import that into FM. > > > > Therefore, I would say not to use PNG. Instead use PDF. > > What he said! > Assuming you have an Adobe PDF printer instance (i.e., you have > Distiller or the full version of Acrobat) installed on your system, it's > always avoidable by printing the vector graphic to PDF, which imports > nicely into FM. WRT Visio, this a much better solution than using its > less-than-optimal export filters to save as WMF or EPS. > > Richard Is there a way to reconcile this advice with what Art just posted? > In 9, using SaveAs to create a PDF with CMYK works, EXCEPT when the FM file > contains embedded PDFs -- in effect, nesting the PDFs. > > So it's partially whacked, but if you don't nest PDFs as imported graphics in FM, it > works. Hoping for a solution, Lea _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367
VISIO, WMF, and PNG
Alan Litchfield wrote: > Yeah. I took a double take on what Art said too. > > So does that mean that Adobe have buggered up the pdf output engine? Or is > it > that the nested pdfs already contain RGB colour definitions and those are > carried through to the final output, in the same way that eps acts as a > wrapper for the postscript colour definitions in images? The latter explanation sounds highly likely, but only testing will tell. That said, it doesn't affect my use of PDFs from Visio (my deliverables are PDFs, not print) -- which is a good thing, because I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that PDFs made from Visio are RGB. Leah, if you need CMYK PDFs from Visio (or most Windows apps), I suspect the solution is the Publi PDF software described yesterday afternoon by Jacob Sch?ffer of Grafikhuset (www.grafikhuset.net). Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 --
