Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Michael Betancourt]

Has anyone seen this?
https://medium.com/@soleri/sexual-abuse-its-you-him-and-his-work-88ecb8e99648
It speaks to the issues of abuse versus "great artist" 

Michael Betancourt
Savannah, GA USA


michaelbetancourt.com | vimeo.com/cinegraphic
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Chuck Kleinhans]

I thought Green Eggs and Ham was better.  

You seem to see some connection between warning the soldiers of an occupying 
army not to fraternize with the locals and sexual harassment of filmmakers?  Or 
are filmmakers the harassers?

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 6:22 PM, Francisco Torres  wrote:
> 
> I said all filmmakers, all genders. I am serious about the personal
> defense issue. And you should watch the film, is on utube and the int.
> Archive. It was written by Dr. Seuss. After watching it please tell me
> what you think about it.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Francisco Torres]

There have been male victims of sexual violence through history. Let's
keep that in mind. Like Spacey's victims.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Francisco Torres]

I said all filmmakers, all genders. I am serious about the personal
defense issue. And you should watch the film, is on utube and the int.
Archive. It was written by Dr. Seuss. After watching it please tell me
what you think about it.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Chuck Kleinhans]

Asking for myself


I’m not clear if this is supposed to be ironic/sarcastic, or what.  And does 
“filmmakers” here refer to only male filmmakers?  Or all filmmakers, regardless 
of gender, etc.?

“Your Job in Germany” according to Wiki: "The movie was produced by the US Army 
Signal Corps. It was criticized by one commentator as a "bitter and angry 
anti-German propaganda film" that characterized the post-war German mind as 
"diseased".[2]  The film urged against fraternization with the German people, 
who are portrayed as thoroughly untrustworthy. It reminds its viewers of 
Germany's history of aggression”

So, Francisco, are you saying that (cis-gendered het male?) filmmakers should 
avoid fraternization with women and queer and trans people?  Or vice versa?

So who is “diseased”? Harassing males, or their victims who are now standing up 
and fighting back?

Chuck Kleinhans



> On Dec 6, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Francisco Torres  wrote:
> 
> I would suggest to all filmmakers to take personal defense lessons and
> to be vigilant at all times. Also look for the film Your job in
> Germany (1945) to learn how to deal with the world we all living in
> today. The new normal.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Francisco Torres]

I would suggest to all filmmakers to take personal defense lessons and
to be vigilant at all times. Also look for the film Your job in
Germany (1945) to learn how to deal with the world we all living in
today. The new normal.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Francisco Torres]

All quiet in the Western Front.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[mary billyou]

Don't know if you all saw this article in *Hyperallergic. *Its related,
however on a wider spectrum of artists:

https://hyperallergic.com/408558/over-1800-female-artists-and-art-workers-sign-letter-against-sexual-harassment/?utm_medium=email_campaign=Artists%20and%20Art%20Workers%20Sign%20Letter%20Against%20Sexual%20Harassment_content=Artists%20and%20Art%20Workers%20Sign%20Letter%20Against%20Sexual%20Harassment+CID_9e2035daa86535d993a8c1d2c4325563_source=HyperallergicNewsletter_term=not-surprisedorg%20initiative

Mary B

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:10 AM, lady snowblood <
snowbloods.para...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for your observations on the role of scholarship in creating
> centered spaces for auteurs Evan.
>
> When female filmmakers voices are centered, when I as a woman don’t have
> to decrypt and explain what is perfectly clear to me — I was raised
> literate in a male visual vocabulary (as is everyone in the culture). I am
> constantly doing double-work. When I don’t have to do that, then gender
> parity will have happened.
>
> I grew up trained to recognize male visual language, right? Double-work is
> “ok where is my vision of this, as it has been informed by my
> woman-experience”. It is what women say to other women when men aren’t
> around, what men miss or overlook. This is often the narrative I’m
> interested in. And that kind of narrative is often demoted because it
> literally can’t be seen.
>
> I can put on multiple lenses, I have practiced reading so many kinds of
> work by so many kinds of speakers. Yet the voice at center? Usually male
> auteur. The kind of work rewarded? Same.
>
> That place in the center allows the auteur the power to abuse those in the
> margins.
>
> To me the deepest revolution is to sponsor women’s authorial power, to
> bring queer authors, POC authors, to the center. Let many have a turn in
> that space. Lateralize the mountain, get rifle of ideas of apex. Train all
> in how to listen and prize story and voice coming from places “not white”,
> “not male”, etc.
>
> So many people are making work now, I gave up pederasts and stalkers and
> found new art old and new to research and consider. It’s not hard. I value
> Tippi Hedrin more than Alfred Hitchcock’s films, not a tough decision.
>
> I also keep the act of viewing art in balance with other areas of life - I
> have few idols and art isn’t an escape for me, rather it enriches my life.
> It’s not a church, either, it’s part of our built world.
>
> I also have listened to too many women (and a smaller number of men) who
> have been assaulted. That pain is real, the day to say struggle, often too
> much.  Art? It’s an illusion. Created in a more conscious way than our
> mutual traumas, so much of trauma a boiling-over of uncontrollability and
> attempts to control.
>
> Anyway ... I have worked with survivor communities training in fine art
> production, it is something we should keep talking about. Certainly it’s
> not one answer coming from ‘out there’ that gets us to figure out, each one
> of us, what might work. It’s a gigantic constellation of conversations and
> ongoing discussion and failing and trying again.
>
> Thanks for bringing this up. It’s a valuable convo to have.
>
> Jessica
>
> * * * * *
>
> Jessica Fenlon
>
> artist : poet : experimental : http://sixth-station.com
>
> flickr  : vimeo
>  : instagram
> 
>
> On Nov 26, 2017, at 12:31 AM, Amanda Christie <
> ama...@amandadawnchristie.ca> wrote:
>
> I would like to offer another perspective, that no one has mentioned yet…
> about when it comes to naming names…
> and the idea that Evan mentioned about the voiceless gaining a voice…
>
> if a third party names names… are the voiceless actually gaining a voice
> if they are not the ones telling their own stories?
> or is someone else then telling their story for them, and thus stealing
> their voice again?
>
>
> there is more complexity to this situation than just what to do with the
> art of an aggressor after an aggressor has been outed…
> there is also the question of how the outing of an aggressor then impacts
> the actual people who were hurt and whether or not they are the ones
> telling their own stories.
> I think that is the most important question in all of this.
> Consideration for the people who were hurt and making sure that they
> retain their own right to choose whether or not to tell their own stories.
>
>
> naming aggressors should come from the people who have personally been
> hurt by them… (I don’t want to use the term “victim", or “survivor",
> because i find those terms put the person who lived the experience, into a
> labelled box where their whole identity becomes about the aggression they
> lived through, rather than all of the other things they accomplished in
> their life… but i can’t think of better terms right now, so i will
> reluctantly use those terms in this 

Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend / naming names

[C Keefer]

I agree with Amanda,
"naming aggressors should come from the people who have personally been
hurt by them…" - and only by them. I agree, that one should
"make sure to be careful about who gets to tell their own stories."  Also,
repeating hearsay is obviously not acceptable.

But beyond that - though I haven't read every single post these last few
days, I do see we have two men telling us this listserve is not the
appropriate place to name names (and not for the above reasons).

I think those who wish to name their own attackers/aggressors can do so
anywhere they f**ing please, and should not be told by men where it is
appropriate to do so.

Though a separate issue - I've been severely slandered by men on several of
these listserves (not for sexual, but professional issues) and I am so
tired of men who think they can say whatever they please on these lists, no
matter how libelous and harmful. One was forced by his employer to write a
multiple page apology letter to the other party involved in his fictional
incident - but no apology to me, and no public correction of the false
accusation, though he was clearly wrong and libelous. Simply put, he used
this list for slander and falsehoods. This is not always a welcoming
community, as Pip described.

Do not try to tell us what we are allowed to say and where, about our own
experiences, when this kind of behavior continues.

Cindy Keefer



>
>
> 
>
>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[lady snowblood]

Thank you for your observations on the role of scholarship in creating centered 
spaces for auteurs Evan. 

When female filmmakers voices are centered, when I as a woman don’t have to 
decrypt and explain what is perfectly clear to me — I was raised literate in a 
male visual vocabulary (as is everyone in the culture). I am constantly doing 
double-work. When I don’t have to do that, then gender parity will have 
happened. 

I grew up trained to recognize male visual language, right? Double-work is “ok 
where is my vision of this, as it has been informed by my woman-experience”. It 
is what women say to other women when men aren’t around, what men miss or 
overlook. This is often the narrative I’m interested in. And that kind of 
narrative is often demoted because it literally can’t be seen. 

I can put on multiple lenses, I have practiced reading so many kinds of work by 
so many kinds of speakers. Yet the voice at center? Usually male auteur. The 
kind of work rewarded? Same. 

That place in the center allows the auteur the power to abuse those in the 
margins. 

To me the deepest revolution is to sponsor women’s authorial power, to bring 
queer authors, POC authors, to the center. Let many have a turn in that space. 
Lateralize the mountain, get rifle of ideas of apex. Train all in how to listen 
and prize story and voice coming from places “not white”, “not male”, etc. 

So many people are making work now, I gave up pederasts and stalkers and found 
new art old and new to research and consider. It’s not hard. I value Tippi 
Hedrin more than Alfred Hitchcock’s films, not a tough decision. 

I also keep the act of viewing art in balance with other areas of life - I have 
few idols and art isn’t an escape for me, rather it enriches my life. It’s not 
a church, either, it’s part of our built world. 

I also have listened to too many women (and a smaller number of men) who have 
been assaulted. That pain is real, the day to say struggle, often too much.  
Art? It’s an illusion. Created in a more conscious way than our mutual traumas, 
so much of trauma a boiling-over of uncontrollability and attempts to control. 

Anyway ... I have worked with survivor communities training in fine art 
production, it is something we should keep talking about. Certainly it’s not 
one answer coming from ‘out there’ that gets us to figure out, each one of us, 
what might work. It’s a gigantic constellation of conversations and ongoing 
discussion and failing and trying again. 

Thanks for bringing this up. It’s a valuable convo to have. 

Jessica 

* * * * *

Jessica Fenlon

artist : poet : experimental : http://sixth-station.com

flickr : vimeo : instagram

> On Nov 26, 2017, at 12:31 AM, Amanda Christie  
> wrote:
> 
> I would like to offer another perspective, that no one has mentioned yet… 
> about when it comes to naming names… 
> and the idea that Evan mentioned about the voiceless gaining a voice… 
> 
> if a third party names names… are the voiceless actually gaining a voice if 
> they are not the ones telling their own stories?  
> or is someone else then telling their story for them, and thus stealing their 
> voice again?
> 
> 
> there is more complexity to this situation than just what to do with the art 
> of an aggressor after an aggressor has been outed… 
> there is also the question of how the outing of an aggressor then impacts the 
> actual people who were hurt and whether or not they are the ones telling 
> their own stories. 
> I think that is the most important question in all of this.  
> Consideration for the people who were hurt and making sure that they retain 
> their own right to choose whether or not to tell their own stories.
> 
> 
> naming aggressors should come from the people who have personally been hurt 
> by them… (I don’t want to use the term “victim", or “survivor", because i 
> find those terms put the person who lived the experience, into a labelled box 
> where their whole identity becomes about the aggression they lived through, 
> rather than all of the other things they accomplished in their life… but i 
> can’t think of better terms right now, so i will reluctantly use those terms 
> in this instance).  
> 
> 
> So... let’s say someone does name people… what about the victims or 
> survivors… do they have a say in that?  
> if he outs them… then, no. they don’t.  and they become revictimized again.
> Even if their own names are not mentioned as “victims” or “survivors"… seeing 
> their aggressors named, may out them anyway… because this is a very small 
> community.
> 
> 
> and I think that it is problematic when we become so focussed on outing 
> people, for the greater cause… that we forget about the impact it might have 
> on the individual people who actually experienced the aggressions, that are 
> then forced to relive traumatic experiences without having prepared 
> themselves for it… or who then have to have their own art work or past films 
> 

Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend / naming names

[Kathryn Ramey]

Hi Amanda, Evan & Sam and everyone else

Some excellent points have been raised all around.

Why are there no great women (Asian, black, Latinx etc..) film artists on  
lists that purport to name the greatest of all time?

What is the purpose of outing offenders?(Amanda made great points about this!!) 
it runs the risk of harming the survivors all over again.

What my post yesterday was trying to point to was thinking about how our 
institutions (and we do have them even if they look more artisan than those of 
academia and the art world) reproduce oppressive structures and allow for 
sexual predators to also be “great artists”.

People can and should come out against their offenders if they wish - but there 
is plenty of other work to do. At our collectives, where we teach, and the 
festivals and venues that screen our work we need to think about whose work we 
privilege and why.  Who is given access, whose voices are heard most frequently 
whose are silent? 

This may not be as salacious or satisfying as outing offenders but it will 
ultimately be more impactful in changing the way our community(s) work. And 
that is way better in my opinion than knowing that this or that “great white 
artist” slept with his students. 

I read this article by a woman who rewatched Manhattan in light of Woody Allen 
marrying his adopted daughter and the allegations by his other daughter and 
son... what she observed is that he was hiding in plain sight.  Here is a link 
- 
https://www.alternet.org/culture/woody-allen-both-genius-and-predator-why-mariel-hemingways-new-revelation-matters

I think it’s possible to look at some of this work and similarly see traces of 
the misogyny behind it. It is perfectly OK to view these things through 21st 
century eyes. In fact I depend on that. 

All the best,
Kathryn Ramey

Sorry for the brevity of my reply. I am sending this from my cellphone.

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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Evan Greene]

Fred,

While I agree is a lot more complicated of a situation. I was writing out a 
whole long response talking about Gauguin, Picasso, and other toxic male 
artists among other things when I decided to revisit your website and noticed a 
few things:

1) your list of what you consider the greatest films of all time include no 
female filmmakers. 

2) your list of what you consider the greatest filmmakers of all time is almost 
entirely male. 

3) almost all of your writing on film you have linked on your site is about 
male filmmakers. 

Honestly I find this kind of weird too considering you’ve written so much on 
Brakhage and three of the most influential filmmakers on him we’re all women. 
Deren, Menken, Schneemann. All of whom are notably absent from your lists. 

While I somewhat understand your reasoning not to name names it seems that it 
also could be read that you’re trying to keep your version of cinematic history 
untainted. 

We live in a different world now. 
What was once acceptable and commonplace isn’t anymore. 
The voiceless are starting to gain a voice. 



> On Nov 25, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Chuck Kleinhans  
> wrote:
> 
> Sum Bodi and Evan Greene, 
> 
> In making the initial post on this discussion thread, I was thinking of the 
> general topic of sexual harassment, not calling out individual people.  I 
> think the discussion has tended to go that way, broadening out at times to 
> discuss sexism in general in the experimental art world.
> 
> I agree with Fred that it is not appropriate to name names here for several 
> reasons: much of the “knowledge” is hearsay, a free for all social media 
> listserv is not a forum with any protections for all the parties who might be 
> concerned (accuser, accused, bystanders, spouses/partners, children, the  
> framing institutions, etc.), and different people draw “the line” in 
> different places for inappropriate behavior. As much as possible, I think the 
> goal should be restorative justice.
> 
> At least in educational institutions today we have (some) formal Title IX 
> policies and procedures in place (as flawed as that system may be, and as 
> determined that the Trump administration is to weaken them). For a 
> particularly lucid discussion of these controversies I’d recommend 
> filmmaker/critic Laura Kipnis’s new book, Unwanted Advances: Sexual Paranoia 
> Comes to Campus.
> 
> Earlier Pip argued that because so much of experimental filmmaking is done in 
> an individual artisan way there aren’t the same workplace hierarchies as in 
> the commercial film world.  True, but anytime there are power differentials, 
> abuse is possible: that may be in funding, access to equipment, necessary 
> services, distribution, exhibition, curating, and even archiving and 
> preservation. And criticism and recognition.  Our field, after all ranges 
> from the first year student showing a short work at the end of the semester 
> class screening to yet another mammoth Mathew Barney extravaganza at a major 
> museum.
> 
> Chuck Kleinhans
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Chuck Kleinhans]

Sum Bodi and Evan Greene, 

In making the initial post on this discussion thread, I was thinking of the 
general topic of sexual harassment, not calling out individual people.  I think 
the discussion has tended to go that way, broadening out at times to discuss 
sexism in general in the experimental art world.

I agree with Fred that it is not appropriate to name names here for several 
reasons: much of the “knowledge” is hearsay, a free for all social media 
listserv is not a forum with any protections for all the parties who might be 
concerned (accuser, accused, bystanders, spouses/partners, children, the  
framing institutions, etc.), and different people draw “the line” in different 
places for inappropriate behavior. As much as possible, I think the goal should 
be restorative justice.

At least in educational institutions today we have (some) formal Title IX 
policies and procedures in place (as flawed as that system may be, and as 
determined that the Trump administration is to weaken them). For a particularly 
lucid discussion of these controversies I’d recommend filmmaker/critic Laura 
Kipnis’s new book, Unwanted Advances: Sexual Paranoia Comes to Campus.

Earlier Pip argued that because so much of experimental filmmaking is done in 
an individual artisan way there aren’t the same workplace hierarchies as in the 
commercial film world.  True, but anytime there are power differentials, abuse 
is possible: that may be in funding, access to equipment, necessary services, 
distribution, exhibition, curating, and even archiving and preservation. And 
criticism and recognition.  Our field, after all ranges from the first year 
student showing a short work at the end of the semester class screening to yet 
another mammoth Mathew Barney extravaganza at a major museum.

Chuck Kleinhans
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Fred Camper]

Evan,

You make important points, but this situation is perhaps more 
complicated than you realize. There are also reasonable differences of 
opinion about the extent to which the bad behavior of an artist in life 
should affect attitudes toward the art. Many think bad behavior 
invalidates the art, which I personally think is an absurd, even evil, 
position, and my guess is that if we knew the full stories of the lives 
of the best Renaissance artists, we might be appalled by many.  Murder 
is worse than sexual harassment, right? But can we judge Caravaggio, 
without knowing the full story of the murder he supposedly committed? 
This apparent fact has never much colored my view of his paintings, nor 
would I want it to. There are many different views of what art is, and 
of how it relates to the artist's life. Today it is often thought the 
artist's work is an extension of the life. For many artists, those who 
go beyond simply creating expressions of the personal to try to 
literally merge art and life, this may be true, as with Otto Muehl, for 
example. I do not have any actual experience with Meuhl's art, but what 
I do know of him does not seem of much interest, except in a negative 
sense. But I do not think that disgusting behavior means that the whole 
of a person is disgusting, and I am not even sure that I think 
everything we, and I, now call harassment is disgusting. As I wrote, I 
would count an instructor asking to date a student as almost automatic 
harassment, but does a simple request with no consequences for the 
student if declined make for a disgusting person? That is not Harvey 
Weinstein territory.


Plus, my knowledge of specifics is hearsay, not fit for an Internet 
post. Look at all the disastrous consequences of some Internet posts. It 
is all too easy to pile on with on-line attacks, a lot easier than 
trying to live good lives ourselves. I do not believe in publicly 
accusing anyone of anything without really good evidence. Also, as I 
noted, the cases I know of are also of people either likely inactive due 
to age, or already deceased.


Now, if a responsible biographer approached me with the project of 
telling the full story of a filmmaker's art and life, of course I would 
tell what I know, including how reliably I know it.


I am not a young person. I have done things in my own life (though not 
in the sexual area, I believe) that I might call disgusting. Few of us 
are perfect. Preventing ongoing harm, that is really important, which is 
why it is great that victims are speaking up. But note that the woman 
who was harassed on this list did not name the name. I do not criticize 
her for not doing so. I am in some ways glad that should did not do so. 
These issues are not so simple. It is all too easy to name another 
person as disgusting. But as I said, in my view, disgusting behavior has 
come from many of the makers of great art, and not just in cinema. Read 
about a few painters sometime.


Fred Camper
Chicago

On 11/25/2017 2:12 PM, Evan Greene wrote:

Fred,

As a young person just beginning to venture into the experimental film 
world I find your unwillingness to name names rather troublesome. Your 
writing in the past year has been an invaluable resource for me. But 
knowingly letting these disgusting people and their art continue to 
garner the recognition and prestige it does, I think is wrong. History 
demands to be rewritten. Space made for the marginalized. If you do 
kno some of the greatest experimental filmmakers who did these things 
I would hope that you would share it. I think it’s important 
information in regards to writing/talking about and seeing their work 
in the future. Especially in experimental filmmaking where much of the 
content is personal.




On Nov 24, 2017, at 6:37 PM, Cecilia Dougherty 
> wrote:



Thank you!

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 4:34 PM Fred Camper > wrote:


Amazing, but unfortunately not that big of a surprise. It
supports my point that no group should feel holier than thou, or
immune from all the badness. (Take, for example, priests, oh,
wait, let's not...)

I have to admit I do not understand the psychology at work here
-- what pleasure could any male get out of such behavior? I will
say with virtual certainty that nothing that you did "prompted"
him. I guess we humans are all different, and not always in good
ways.

Thanks for speaking up.

Fred Camper
Chicago


On 11/24/2017 11:17 AM, Kate Ewald wrote:

I will give an anecdote about this very listserv: I was very
severely sexually harassed as a college student posting about a
film screening in 2008.  It was for a well-known experimental
filmmaker.  The response to my post involved "oh, you don't know
what you're talking about and I bet you can shut up and stick a
dick in your mouth." 

Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Salise Hughes]

I didn't attend film school, but art school in the 70s. The male teachers
were all dating their students. I'll admit I slept with my painting
teacher, not to get a good grade because I was the best painter in the
class... just because. At first he asked me what grade I wanted. Then when
we began to fight he flunked me. This is the main reason I don't have a
degree in art. Don't think the silence you're hearing from women on this
list is because we have nothing to say.

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Evan Greene  wrote:

> Fred,
>
> As a young person just beginning to venture into the experimental film
> world I find your unwillingness to name names rather troublesome. Your
> writing in the past year has been an invaluable resource for me. But
> knowingly letting these disgusting people and their art continue to garner
> the recognition and prestige it does, I think is wrong. History demands to
> be rewritten. Space made for the marginalized. If you do kno some of the
> greatest experimental filmmakers who did these things I would hope that you
> would share it. I think it’s important information in regards to
> writing/talking about and seeing their work in the future. Especially in
> experimental filmmaking where much of the content is personal.
>
> 
>
> On Nov 24, 2017, at 6:37 PM, Cecilia Dougherty <
> cecilia.doughe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you!
>
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 4:34 PM Fred Camper  wrote:
>
>> Amazing, but unfortunately not that big of a surprise. It supports my
>> point that no group should feel holier than thou, or immune from all the
>> badness. (Take, for example, priests, oh, wait, let's not...)
>>
>> I have to admit I do not understand the psychology at work here -- what
>> pleasure could any male get out of such behavior? I will say with virtual
>> certainty that nothing that you did "prompted" him. I guess we humans are
>> all different, and not always in good ways.
>>
>> Thanks for speaking up.
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>> On 11/24/2017 11:17 AM, Kate Ewald wrote:
>>
>> I will give an anecdote about this very listserv: I was very severely
>> sexually harassed as a college student posting about a film screening in
>> 2008.  It was for a well-known experimental filmmaker.  The response to my
>> post involved "oh, you don't know what you're talking about and I bet you
>> can shut up and stick a dick in your mouth."  This persisted for several
>> posts (becoming increasingly graphic), some just to me, some to the whole
>> list - I'm not sure what prompted such a reaction from this stranger.
>> Scott was kind enough to delete these posts from the archives out of
>> respect and block this person from Frameworks, but as a young person first
>> entering the experimental film community (it was my first post on
>> Frameworks), I was shaken.  Some people policed it and stood up for me
>> then, but Scott made it go away very quickly.  So yes, this happens in our
>> community, and yes, this happens on this listserv.  I wish it weren't the
>> case.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing 
>> listFrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.comhttps://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
>>
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
> --
> “As from when does somewhere become truly yours?”  -- Georges Perec
>
> Cecilia Dougherty
> http://www.ceciliadougherty.com
> http://inbetweentheories.com
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>


-- 
Salise Hughes
Artist, Filmmaker, Armchair Anthropologist

http://salisehughes.blogspot.com
https://vimeo.com/user1421998
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Evan Greene]

Fred,

As a young person just beginning to venture into the experimental film world I 
find your unwillingness to name names rather troublesome. Your writing in the 
past year has been an invaluable resource for me. But knowingly letting these 
disgusting people and their art continue to garner the recognition and prestige 
it does, I think is wrong. History demands to be rewritten. Space made for the 
marginalized. If you do kno some of the greatest experimental filmmakers who 
did these things I would hope that you would share it. I think it’s important 
information in regards to writing/talking about and seeing their work in the 
future. Especially in experimental filmmaking where much of the content is 
personal. 



> On Nov 24, 2017, at 6:37 PM, Cecilia Dougherty  
> wrote:
> 
> Thank you! 
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 4:34 PM Fred Camper  wrote:
>> Amazing, but unfortunately not that big of a surprise. It supports my point 
>> that no group should feel holier than thou, or immune from all the badness. 
>> (Take, for example, priests, oh, wait, let's not...)
>> I have to admit I do not understand the psychology at work here -- what 
>> pleasure could any male get out of such behavior? I will say with virtual 
>> certainty that nothing that you did "prompted" him. I guess we humans are 
>> all different, and not always in good ways.
>> Thanks for speaking up.
>> 
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>> 
>> 
>>> On 11/24/2017 11:17 AM, Kate Ewald wrote:
>>> I will give an anecdote about this very listserv: I was very severely 
>>> sexually harassed as a college student posting about a film screening in 
>>> 2008.  It was for a well-known experimental filmmaker.  The response to my 
>>> post involved "oh, you don't know what you're talking about and I bet you 
>>> can shut up and stick a dick in your mouth."  This persisted for several 
>>> posts (becoming increasingly graphic), some just to me, some to the whole 
>>> list - I'm not sure what prompted such a reaction from this stranger.  
>>> Scott was kind enough to delete these posts from the archives out of 
>>> respect and block this person from Frameworks, but as a young person first 
>>> entering the experimental film community (it was my first post on 
>>> Frameworks), I was shaken.  Some people policed it and stood up for me 
>>> then, but Scott made it go away very quickly.  So yes, this happens in our 
>>> community, and yes, this happens on this listserv.  I wish it weren't the 
>>> case. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>> 
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> -- 
> “As from when does somewhere become truly yours?”  -- Georges Perec
> 
> Cecilia Dougherty
> http://www.ceciliadougherty.com
> http://inbetweentheories.com
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Sum Bodi]

Fred,

As a young person just beginning to venture into the experimental film
world I find your unwillingness to name names rather troublesome. Your
writing in the past year has been an invaluable resource for me. But
knowingly letting these disgusting people and their art continue to garner
the recognition and prestige it does, I think is wrong. History demands to
be rewritten. Space made for the marginalized. If you do kno some of the
greatest experimental filmmakers who did these things I would hope that you
would share it. I think it’s important information especially in regards to
writing about their work in the future. Especially in experimental
filmmaking where much of the content is personal.

On Friday, November 24, 2017, Cecilia Dougherty 
wrote:

> Thank you!
>
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 4:34 PM Fred Camper  > wrote:
>
>> Amazing, but unfortunately not that big of a surprise. It supports my
>> point that no group should feel holier than thou, or immune from all the
>> badness. (Take, for example, priests, oh, wait, let's not...)
>>
>> I have to admit I do not understand the psychology at work here -- what
>> pleasure could any male get out of such behavior? I will say with virtual
>> certainty that nothing that you did "prompted" him. I guess we humans are
>> all different, and not always in good ways.
>>
>> Thanks for speaking up.
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>> On 11/24/2017 11:17 AM, Kate Ewald wrote:
>>
>> I will give an anecdote about this very listserv: I was very severely
>> sexually harassed as a college student posting about a film screening in
>> 2008.  It was for a well-known experimental filmmaker.  The response to my
>> post involved "oh, you don't know what you're talking about and I bet you
>> can shut up and stick a dick in your mouth."  This persisted for several
>> posts (becoming increasingly graphic), some just to me, some to the whole
>> list - I'm not sure what prompted such a reaction from this stranger.
>> Scott was kind enough to delete these posts from the archives out of
>> respect and block this person from Frameworks, but as a young person first
>> entering the experimental film community (it was my first post on
>> Frameworks), I was shaken.  Some people policed it and stood up for me
>> then, but Scott made it go away very quickly.  So yes, this happens in our
>> community, and yes, this happens on this listserv.  I wish it weren't the
>> case.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing listframewo...@jonasmekasfilms.com 
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
>>
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> 
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
> --
> “As from when does somewhere become truly yours?”  -- Georges Perec
>
> Cecilia Dougherty
> http://www.ceciliadougherty.com
> http://inbetweentheories.com
>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Fred Camper]

Amazing, but unfortunately not that big of a surprise. It supports my 
point that no group should feel holier than thou, or immune from all the 
badness. (Take, for example, priests, oh, wait, let's not...)


I have to admit I do not understand the psychology at work here -- what 
pleasure could any male get out of such behavior? I will say with 
virtual certainty that nothing that you did "prompted" him. I guess we 
humans are all different, and not always in good ways.


Thanks for speaking up.

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 11/24/2017 11:17 AM, Kate Ewald wrote:
I will give an anecdote about this very listserv: I was very severely 
sexually harassed as a college student posting about a film screening 
in 2008.  It was for a well-known experimental filmmaker.  The 
response to my post involved "oh, you don't know what you're talking 
about and I bet you can shut up and stick a dick in your mouth."  This 
persisted for several posts (becoming increasingly graphic), some just 
to me, some to the whole list - I'm not sure what prompted such a 
reaction from this stranger.  Scott was kind enough to delete these 
posts from the archives out of respect and block this person from 
Frameworks, but as a young person first entering the experimental film 
community (it was my first post on Frameworks), I was shaken.  Some 
people policed it and stood up for me then, but Scott made it go away 
very quickly.  So yes, this happens in our community, and yes, this 
happens on this listserv.  I wish it weren't the case.



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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Kate Ewald]

I will give an anecdote about this very listserv: I was very severely
sexually harassed as a college student posting about a film screening in
2008.  It was for a well-known experimental filmmaker.  The response to my
post involved "oh, you don't know what you're talking about and I bet you
can shut up and stick a dick in your mouth."  This persisted for several
posts (becoming increasingly graphic), some just to me, some to the whole
list - I'm not sure what prompted such a reaction from this stranger.
Scott was kind enough to delete these posts from the archives out of
respect and block this person from Frameworks, but as a young person first
entering the experimental film community (it was my first post on
Frameworks), I was shaken.  Some people policed it and stood up for me
then, but Scott made it go away very quickly.  So yes, this happens in our
community, and yes, this happens on this listserv.  I wish it weren't the
case.
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Bernard Roddy]

Well, I would say it has the appearance of a media fiasco.

By the way, I got the unemployment benefits I was being denied!  Minimum
enrollment for adjuncts went up, classes were cancelled, and I received
adjunct offers at two different locations.  I decided not to take the
better paying arrangement and wrote a full explanation for this decision,
but online I had to check the box that said I had "refused" employment.
What a nightmare.  I am so relieved to have my rent now.  If anyone here
works at O'Hare and would like to hire a driver, please write me.

Bernie

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Chuck Kleinhans 
wrote:

> Given the proliferation of items in the news about sexual harassment in
> the film industry, and entertainment, and politics and academe, etc. why is
> this listserv so quiet on these issues?  Nothing to report?
>
> Chuck Kleinhans
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>
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Pip Chodorov]

Hi all,

Of course anything can happen in any domain, whether in a university 
or in a community film lab. No community is immune from people who 
use their position of authority inappropriately. I'm sure Fred is 
right about filmmakers exhibiting inappropriate behavior, and I'm 
sure filmmakers have had disturbing experiences with their subjects 
as Amanda relates. But Chuck's question compares our "industry" with 
entertainmeint, politics and academia, and I think there is a 
difference.


Of course when the subject matter of our films brings us into 
dangerous situations or into contact with people who cause 
harassment, yes and I guess that can be an even greater danger in 
documentary filmmaking, especially social documentary. I really 
wasn't thinking about the act of filming a subject, or in the 
relation of power or authority between filmer and filmee, but in the 
"business" side of experimental film. There are no "casting couches."


When I reflect on the panorama of experimental filmmaking there are 
fewer films about human subjects than in narrative or documentary 
filmmaking. So many films are about mountains or emulsion scratches 
or found images or old friends, and many of us work totally alone 
with printing machines or in a darkroom.


On the other hand many films do cross the line into sexual politics 
or sexuality in general, like Flaming Creatures. Not only the 
vulnerability of the filming situation but the potential of 
distribution and exhibition is affected by the subject matter. (In 
some cases film labs even refused to print explicit images).


I didn't mean to disrespect anybody in our community who has had bad 
experiences with bad actors, but to posit that in the narrow scope of 
avant-garde film, one's career as a filmmaker is less likely to be in 
jeapordy due to inappropriate sexual behavior, though other abuses of 
power are much more common.


Interesting debate, but I doubt it's made more interesting now 
because of the proliferation of news stories. It should have always 
been acceptable and rewarding to call out wrongdoing when it happened.


- Pip
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Gina Marchetti]

Thanks, Chuck and Pip, for starting the discussion on this.  I recommend
looking at this article by Mary Celeste Kearney, Guest Post: How Film
Schools Lead to Pipelines Full of Weinsteins:
https://blog.womenandhollywood.com/guest-post-how-film-schools-lead-to-pipelines-full-of-weinsteins-f49f4c69d78

I don't teach at a film school, but we still have been having a lively
discussion here at HKU on the consequences of the Weinstein revelations.
In fact, we've started to collect some articles on our Faculty of Arts
Committee on Gender Equality and Diversity website.  Here's the link:
http://arts.hku.hk/about-us/CGED/Bibliography/sexual-harassment-and-climate-in-units
I am eager to add to this bibliography, so feel free to contact me off list
if you have material to add.  I also recommend following the discussion on
UFVA Facebook.  Vaun Monroe, who coordinates the Gender/Diversity caucus,
does an excellent job of pointing out the ways that discrimination works in
film schools (where many in the experimental film community are based).
https://www.facebook.com/groups/416283385163176/  (I am copying Vaun here.)

Given the centrality of commercial film in the popular consciousness, the
amount of press given to Weinstein has opened up the conversation in many
ways.  My colleague, Sylvia Martin, gave a fascinating talk on this here
recently.  I'm copying her, since I'm not sure she's part of the
experimental film community.  Even when the stakes are low, women still
suffer disproportionately from sexual violence, harassment, lack of access
to resources, and a cool climate that makes it difficult for them to
excel.  In my years of following experimental film (particularly women in
punk), I think that we still have far to go in breaking down barriers.

Looking forward to seeing more on this topic here.  (I am copying some
other colleagues, who may be interested in this thread as well.)

Best,
Gina
(University of Hong Kong)

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 10:21 AM, Pip Chodorov 
wrote:

> Asking for a friend?  Hilarious subject line.
>
> I think experiemental film's freedom comes from its marginality.
> In this business there is no money or power because these films are
> outside the film industry and outside the art market. There is only
> passion, sharing, and working in cooperative communities.
>
> That is not to say that there is no competition or territoriality between
> people or groups, we feel that maybe even stronger than in the film
> industry or the art market. But there is certainly no sense of entitlement
> over others due to one's position. There are no bosses, no job interviews,
> no big opportunities, no moguls... Also the nature of these film works are
> self-expression and thrashing out issues of difference and marginality and
> self-identity so it is a very welcoming community in those terms.
>
> Of course there are other kinds of negative energies that can crop up in
> our communitiy besides sexual haassment, other, more "experimental"
> harassments that could be interseting to discuss...
>
> - Pip Chodorov
>
>
>
>
>
> At 21:06 + 23/11/17, Chuck Kleinhans wrote:
>
>> Given the proliferation of items in the news about sexual harassment in
>> the film industry, and entertainment, and politics and academe, etc. why is
>> this listserv so quiet on these issues?  Nothing to report?
>>
>> Chuck Kleinhans
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
>
> ___
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> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Fred Camper]

This utopian view of experimental cinema seems to me to be incorrect. 
Some of those I would call the very greatest experimental filmmakers 
were also sexual harassers. Remember that many filmmakers had a position 
of profesorship, which certainly conveys an aura of authority, or other 
positions of power. Asking for sex from a very young and very admiring 
student enrolled in one of one's courses  is highly inappropriate, and 
not only in my view, even if it is nowhere near as awful as the worst of 
the actions we are hearing about today.


I do not wish to name filmmakers now very old or deceased, but I can 
without searching my memory very hard quickly count to eight, not all of 
them among the greatest filmmakers and not all of them professors. I 
felt the need to chime in in response to the we are better than they 
tone of this post. I am a bit out of the current scene and do not know 
of currently active harassers in our little film world. It would be nice 
to think that there are fewer today, and nicer to think that such 
actions will be greatly reduced by the current shift in climate around 
this issue.


Perhaps the old HIV slogan, Silence=Death, can be resurrected with a 
slight rewrite now? I am not sure what to use instead of death though.


Fred Camper
Chicago

On 11/23/2017 8:21 PM, Pip Chodorov wrote:

Asking for a friend?  Hilarious subject line.

I think experiemental film's freedom comes from its marginality.
In this business there is no money or power because these films are 
outside the film industry and outside the art market. There is only 
passion, sharing, and working in cooperative communities.


That is not to say that there is no competition or territoriality 
between people or groups, we feel that maybe even stronger than in the 
film industry or the art market. But there is certainly no sense of 
entitlement over others due to one's position. There are no bosses, no 
job interviews, no big opportunities, no moguls... Also the nature of 
these film works are self-expression and thrashing out issues of 
difference and marginality and self-identity so it is a very welcoming 
community in those terms.


Of course there are other kinds of negative energies that can crop up 
in our communitiy besides sexual haassment, other, more "experimental" 
harassments that could be interseting to discuss...


- Pip Chodorov




At 21:06 + 23/11/17, Chuck Kleinhans wrote:
Given the proliferation of items in the news about sexual harassment 
in the film industry, and entertainment, and politics and academe, 
etc. why is this listserv so quiet on these issues?  Nothing to report?


Chuck Kleinhans
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Amanda Christie]

interesting perspective pip…

sadly, sexual harassment and assault do not only result from the hierarchical 
power structures of industrial or commercial productions… 
nor are they limited to territoriality and competition…. 

sometimes, these things can happen precisely because we are working alone and 
in the margins... and in order to pursue our subjects we may place ourselves in 
dangerous or compromising situations without protection, because we might think 
that by working alone, outside of the industry, in the margins, that protection 
is not needed… not protection from superiors or crew members (because we are 
working independently and alone)… but protection from our subjects… that in 
itself creates a very complicated and difficult power dynamic… because then how 
does one finish or edit a film, when the footage itself bears the trace of an 
assault that becomes a trigger? and then how does one independently promote or 
disseminate such a film, or even attempt to work with a distributor when the 
mere discussion of the film is tangled with the effects of ptsd that breed 
fear, aggression, paranoia, and distrust of ones peers, friends, and others …. 
hypothetically speaking of course.

 just to say… that sadly… sexual assault and harassment can, and does sometimes 
happen to experimental filmmakers, in the process of making their films… 
working alone in the margins. 

adc



> On Nov 23, 2017, at 9:21 PM, Pip Chodorov  wrote:
> 
> Asking for a friend?  Hilarious subject line.
> 
> I think experiemental film's freedom comes from its marginality.
> In this business there is no money or power because these films are outside 
> the film industry and outside the art market. There is only passion, sharing, 
> and working in cooperative communities.
> 
> That is not to say that there is no competition or territoriality between 
> people or groups, we feel that maybe even stronger than in the film industry 
> or the art market. But there is certainly no sense of entitlement over others 
> due to one's position. There are no bosses, no job interviews, no big 
> opportunities, no moguls... Also the nature of these film works are 
> self-expression and thrashing out issues of difference and marginality and 
> self-identity so it is a very welcoming community in those terms.
> 
> Of course there are other kinds of negative energies that can crop up in our 
> communitiy besides sexual haassment, other, more "experimental" harassments 
> that could be interseting to discuss...
> 
> - Pip Chodorov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 21:06 + 23/11/17, Chuck Kleinhans wrote:
>> Given the proliferation of items in the news about sexual harassment in the 
>> film industry, and entertainment, and politics and academe, etc. why is this 
>> listserv so quiet on these issues?  Nothing to report?
>> 
>> Chuck Kleinhans
>> ___
>> FrameWorks mailing list
>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
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Re: [Frameworks] Asking for a friend

[Pip Chodorov]

Asking for a friend?  Hilarious subject line.

I think experiemental film's freedom comes from its marginality.
In this business there is no money or power because these films are 
outside the film industry and outside the art market. There is only 
passion, sharing, and working in cooperative communities.


That is not to say that there is no competition or territoriality 
between people or groups, we feel that maybe even stronger than in 
the film industry or the art market. But there is certainly no sense 
of entitlement over others due to one's position. There are no 
bosses, no job interviews, no big opportunities, no moguls... Also 
the nature of these film works are self-expression and thrashing out 
issues of difference and marginality and self-identity so it is a 
very welcoming community in those terms.


Of course there are other kinds of negative energies that can crop up 
in our communitiy besides sexual haassment, other, more 
"experimental" harassments that could be interseting to discuss...


- Pip Chodorov




At 21:06 + 23/11/17, Chuck Kleinhans wrote:
Given the proliferation of items in the news about sexual harassment 
in the film industry, and entertainment, and politics and academe, 
etc. why is this listserv so quiet on these issues?  Nothing to 
report?


Chuck Kleinhans
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