Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film

[Roger D. Wilson]

Thanks Kevin! This is exactly what I was looking for!
Roger

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On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 1:37 PM -0700, "Kevin Rice"  
wrote:
Roger,

They use gelatin which has been specifically manufactured to perform within
certain mechanical and optical standards. However, the process of getting
that layer to adhere to the base is, of course, the trick to proper
subbing. Such processes vary depending on the composition of the material
you are trying to sub. With cellulose (tri)acetate, the standard process is
to use a mixture of gelatin, tanning agents and a base solvent (for
example, acetone) that etch into the base and form a highly durable bound
between the gelatin and the base. Any gelatin can be used, but as mentioned
before, manufacturers will work closely with gelatin suppliers to achieve a
quality of gelatin that gives optimal subbing properties.

With PET (e.g. ESTAR et al), subbing is a more complicated affair because a
suitable solvent isn't readily available. Accordingly, manufacturers
developed a method of subbing that uses corona discharges to give the
polyester base a temporary affinity for bonding with gelatin. After
subjecting the base to this corona discharge, a mixture of gelatin and
hardener is coated unto the base to act as a subbing layer (typically, this
is done simultaneously with the actual emulsion layers in the cascade
coating systems).

I'm not familiar as to weather or not this method is still in use in
production at EK, but some folks have been experimenting with it on a
home-brew basis...check out this forum thread for more on this mad science:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum205/68928-corona-discharge-polyester-subbing.html

Cheers,

Kevin Rice
processreversal.org
pcn03031989.com
(720) 270.3857

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Roger D. Wilson 
wrote:

> Does anyone know what film manufacturers use as their subbing layer on
> film stock so that the emulsion adheres to the base?
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger
>
> Sent from Outlook 
>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
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>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film

[Kevin Rice]

Roger,

They use gelatin which has been specifically manufactured to perform within
certain mechanical and optical standards. However, the process of getting
that layer to adhere to the base is, of course, the trick to proper
subbing. Such processes vary depending on the composition of the material
you are trying to sub. With cellulose (tri)acetate, the standard process is
to use a mixture of gelatin, tanning agents and a base solvent (for
example, acetone) that etch into the base and form a highly durable bound
between the gelatin and the base. Any gelatin can be used, but as mentioned
before, manufacturers will work closely with gelatin suppliers to achieve a
quality of gelatin that gives optimal subbing properties.

With PET (e.g. ESTAR et al), subbing is a more complicated affair because a
suitable solvent isn't readily available. Accordingly, manufacturers
developed a method of subbing that uses corona discharges to give the
polyester base a temporary affinity for bonding with gelatin. After
subjecting the base to this corona discharge, a mixture of gelatin and
hardener is coated unto the base to act as a subbing layer (typically, this
is done simultaneously with the actual emulsion layers in the cascade
coating systems).

I'm not familiar as to weather or not this method is still in use in
production at EK, but some folks have been experimenting with it on a
home-brew basis...check out this forum thread for more on this mad science:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum205/68928-corona-discharge-polyester-subbing.html

Cheers,

Kevin Rice
processreversal.org
pcn03031989.com
(720) 270.3857

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Roger D. Wilson 
wrote:

> Does anyone know what film manufacturers use as their subbing layer on
> film stock so that the emulsion adheres to the base?
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger
>
> Sent from Outlook 
>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
___
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Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film

[Fred Smith]

You can order Mr.  Shanebrook's book from his website: 
www.makingkodakfilm.com. About 50 dollars (may have gone down since my 
order)


On 3/9/2015 1:40 PM, Roger D. Wilson wrote:

Thanks Jean-Louis,

I will try to track down a copy of this book. I did find this diagram 
on kodaks site that briefly mentions subbing but does not go into any 
details.


http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_newsletters_filmEss_04_How-film-makes-image.pdf

Roger

Sent from Outlook <http://taps.io/outlookmobile>

_
From: Jean-Louis Seguin mailto:bolext...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film
To: Experimental Film Discussion List <mailto:frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>>




On 2015-03-09, at 12:12 PM, Roger D. Wilson wrote:

Does anyone know what film manufacturers use as their subbing
layer on film stock so that the emulsion adheres to the base?

Thanks

Roger

Sent from Outlook <http://taps.io/outlookmobile>



Roger,

I briefly scanned my copy of "Making Kodak Film" by Robert L. 
Shanebrook (highly recommended, I might add) and I don't see any 
particular preparation to the increase adhesiveness. It says that 
after the gelatin is applied, it is immediately cooled, so this may be 
the trick to adhesion.


Cheers,
Jean-Louis




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Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film

[Jean-Louis Seguin]

On 2015-03-09, at 1:40 PM, Roger D. Wilson wrote:

> Thanks Jean-Louis,
> 
> I will try to track down a copy of this book. I did find this diagram on 
> kodaks site that briefly mentions subbing but does not go into any details.
> 
> http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_newsletters_filmEss_04_How-film-makes-image.pdf
> 
> Roger
> 


Probably, it is a "closely guarded industrial secret".

JL

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Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film

[Roger D. Wilson]

Thanks Jean-Louis,
I will try to track down a copy of this book. I did find this diagram on kodaks 
site that briefly mentions subbing but does not go into any details.
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_newsletters_filmEss_04_How-film-makes-image.pdf
Roger

Sent from Outlook

_
From: Jean-Louis Seguin 
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film
To: Experimental Film Discussion List 



 On 2015-03-09, at 12:12 PM, Roger D. Wilson wrote:  
Does anyone know what film manufacturers use as their subbing layer 
on film stock so that the emulsion adheres to the base? 
 Thanks 
 Roger 
  
Sent fromOutlook 
   
  Roger, 
   I briefly scanned my copy of "Making Kodak Film" by Robert L. Shanebrook 
(highly recommended, I might add) and I don't see any particular preparation to 
the increase adhesiveness. It says that after the gelatin is applied, it is 
immediately cooled, so this may be the trick to adhesion.   
   Cheers,   Jean-Louis___
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Re: [Frameworks] Subbing on film

[Jean-Louis Seguin]

On 2015-03-09, at 12:12 PM, Roger D. Wilson wrote:

> Does anyone know what film manufacturers use as their subbing layer on film 
> stock so that the emulsion adheres to the base?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Roger
> 
> Sent from Outlook



Roger,

I briefly scanned my copy of "Making Kodak Film" by Robert L. Shanebrook 
(highly recommended, I might add) and I don't see any particular preparation to 
the increase adhesiveness. It says that after the gelatin is applied, it is 
immediately cooled, so this may be the trick to adhesion.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis___
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FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks