Re: [free-software-melb] Chipping in for an Ouya console?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28/06/13 23:37, Matt Giuca wrote: Did you guys end up chipping in for one? Not as a group. Did anybody get theirs? Yes. Mine arrived on Thursday. The cardboard box was damp and looked like someone had used it as a football... but amazingly the contents inside were unarmed. I got mine this week, and I am severely disappointed from both a freedom and security standpoint that it requires me to enter a credit card before I can even turn it on. This controversy was uncovered some months back, so I was expecting to need a credit card. Some information here: https://support.ouya.tv/entries/23463832-Why-do-you-HAVE-to-put-in-credit-debit-card-information-even-for-free-apps-games- - From the link, Ouya support stated Other than being able to download games via the Discover section, absolutely no other functionality will require that you provide payment information. Period. We know this isn't true - you need to enter this information before you can even log in. Apparently you can load your own .apk files onto the device to run, but you wouldn't even be able to get that far without having some credit verified up front (unless hacking the device, of course). Fortunately, instead of a credit card, you also have the option of using a pre-paid credit code. These were apparently available during pre-order, and can be brought from various places online. eg. http://www.game.co.uk/en/ouya-10-credit-232744 So while some available credit must be verified (which I'm not defending - this aspect of the Ouya console sucks), it seems that you don't have to hand over your credit card to Ouya to store indefinitely if you don't want to. I have a spare debit card which I never have any money in, and I leave at home just for emergencies. eg. If my wallet gets stolen, I can cancel my cards and transfer money to my spare debit card account online while waiting for a replacement. This is the card I used when signing up for an Ouya account. When I made a game purchase (more on this below), I transfered money to the account associated with the card first. That way, I don't have to trust Ouya, and transferring money is still probably easier than dealing with buying pre-paid credit. https://plus.google.com/108688191891412975833/posts/baejsGtfX3C To address your concern of accidentally being charged for games by button-mashing, the one game I purchased to date gave the impression that the Ouya payment API forces certain GUI changes, based on the way the UI suddenly appeared - it looked very Android-ish, which was a stark contrast to everything else in-game. In any case, you can also configure (under the Parental menu) that you must enter a PIN first to make any purchase. A boss had just appeared after maybe 30 or so minutes of game-play. Then a message appeared asking me to purchase the game if I wanted to continue. Clicking Purchase(?) (this is from memory of course), I was told the game would cost $4.99, and then I had to click another button, Confirm IIRC, and then click one more time to dispel the message that I had successfully paid. Then i was back in the game. Having witnessed this myself, I can confirm that it was all very smooth and nicely handled. I can understand why they want a credit card up front (and it probably doesn't hurt that Ouya can say to potential developers we have X number of people with an Ouya console and credit on file ready to make purchases). Possibly if people had to quit the game, go to Discover, purchase the game, possibly wait for something to download, and then load the game up again and get back to my last checkpoint, some people wouldn't bother. They might go to the store and say hey, there's 200 other demos here that I haven't tried out and instead of paying for the game will just go play something else. And that's Ouya's thing - every game must provide a no-cost playable component. If purchases could not happen in game, I expect commercial game developers might have good reason to be scared of people just playing demos and not making purchases. So it is clear to me that this mandatory credit was deliberately enforced as a marketing factor above all else. In the context of a game console, I'm pretty happy with the Ouya. There have been a few surprises (such as the built-in track-pad on the controller which I only discovered by accident), and of course Make being right on the main menu where you can run your software builds from. Already I have more games on my Ouya then I have for my Wii-U. - From a free software perspective however, it's been somewhat of a letdown. Apparently, the boot-loader is locked. There was no reference on the device or in the printed documentation (that I noticed, anyway) to the source code, or the GPL etc. although everything does appear to have been dumped on GitHub. They may have released more code than any other major game console to date, but it's not as much as I had hoped for. These HackPad notes
Re: [free-software-melb] Chipping in for an Ouya console?
Hi Adam, Thanks for a clear and detailed summary of your Ouya experiences. (I still haven't gotten into the main menu on mine, while I'm having an email conversation with support, and considering whether to buy a debit card and which one.) For what it's worth, I got an email back from support, but it didn't really tell me anything; just that the credit card was a requirement. I want to know why mine doesn't let me get to the main menu whereas others (including journalists) have reported being able to download games without a CC. It sucks that there are journalists going around saying that the Ouya is less restrictive than it actually is (for certain, apparently randomly selected, customers). On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Adam Bolte abo...@systemsaviour.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 This controversy was uncovered some months back, so I was expecting to need a credit card. Some information here: https://support.ouya.tv/entries/23463832-Why-do-you-HAVE-to-put-in-credit-debit-card-information-even-for-free-apps-games- - From the link, Ouya support stated Other than being able to download games via the Discover section, absolutely no other functionality will require that you provide payment information. Period. We know this isn't true - you need to enter this information before you can even log in. Apparently you can load your own .apk files onto the device to run, but you wouldn't even be able to get that far without having some credit verified up front (unless hacking the device, of course). Very interesting. I have read that page but I didn't catch that quote that explicitly states that only the Discover section requires a credit card. Fortunately, instead of a credit card, you also have the option of using a pre-paid credit code. These were apparently available during pre-order, and can be brought from various places online. eg. http://www.game.co.uk/en/ouya-10-credit-232744 So while some available credit must be verified (which I'm not defending - this aspect of the Ouya console sucks), it seems that you don't have to hand over your credit card to Ouya to store indefinitely if you don't want to. But then I have to pay them more money up front (which I don't feel they deserve right now) and also wait for a physical card to be shipped internationally. I'm happier to get a general-purpose debit card. At least then I can use the credit elsewhere, not just on Ouya. There are cards that do not require opening a full bank account from Australia Post and Woolworths. I'm trying to decide which one is better. They both have some nasty drawbacks (like credit expiration and cancellation fees). To address your concern of accidentally being charged for games by button-mashing, the one game I purchased to date gave the impression that the Ouya payment API forces certain GUI changes, based on the way the UI suddenly appeared - it looked very Android-ish, which was a stark contrast to everything else in-game. In any case, you can also configure (under the Parental menu) that you must enter a PIN first to make any purchase. That's good to hear. I would definitely configure a PIN just in case I don't find myself mashing the shoot button and a dialog pops up and I accidentally mash the Buy for $100 button. A boss had just appeared after maybe 30 or so minutes of game-play. Then a message appeared asking me to purchase the game if I wanted to continue. Clicking Purchase(?) (this is from memory of course), I was told the game would cost $4.99, and then I had to click another button, Confirm IIRC, and then click one more time to dispel the message that I had successfully paid. Then i was back in the game. Having witnessed this myself, I can confirm that it was all very smooth and nicely handled. I can understand why they want a credit card up front (and it probably doesn't hurt that Ouya can say to potential developers we have X number of people with an Ouya console and credit on file ready to make purchases). Possibly if people had to quit the game, go to Discover, purchase the game, possibly wait for something to download, and then load the game up again and get back to my last checkpoint, some people wouldn't bother. They might go to the store and say hey, there's 200 other demos here that I haven't tried out and instead of paying for the game will just go play something else. And that's Ouya's thing - every game must provide a no-cost playable component. If purchases could not happen in game, I expect commercial game developers might have good reason to be scared of people just playing demos and not making purchases. So it is clear to me that this mandatory credit was deliberately enforced as a marketing factor above all else. Yeah. I get that, and it's a good hook for them, but I still want to be given the choice, as a consumer. Don't give me this bullshit about it being more convenient for me when you're forcing me to do
Re: [free-software-melb] Chipping in for an Ouya console?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Matt, On 30/06/13 17:35, Matt Giuca wrote: Thanks for a clear and detailed summary of your Ouya experiences. No worries. Right back at you. It sucks that there are journalists going around saying that the Ouya is less restrictive than it actually is (for certain, apparently randomly selected, customers). Yes. I have noticed this too. When I first turned on the device, there was a large firmware update that needed to be applied, so possibly in doing that it has changed the initial sign-up behavior for those of us who only very recently received our Ouya devices. Fortunately, instead of a credit card, you also have the option of using a pre-paid credit code. These were apparently available during pre-order, and can be brought from various places online. eg. http://www.game.co.uk/en/ouya-10-credit-232744 So while some available credit must be verified (which I'm not defending - this aspect of the Ouya console sucks), it seems that you don't have to hand over your credit card to Ouya to store indefinitely if you don't want to. But then I have to pay them more money up front (which I don't feel they deserve right now) and also wait for a physical card to be shipped internationally. You're right. Hopefully cdkey-hut.com or some such will add Ouya support soon, so we can pay anonymously and without waiting on postage. Still would have to pay something up-front though. I'm happier to get a general-purpose debit card. At least then I can use the credit elsewhere, not just on Ouya. There are cards that do not require opening a full bank account from Australia Post and Woolworths. I'm trying to decide which one is better. They both have some nasty drawbacks (like credit expiration and cancellation fees). Interesting. I haven't looked into them, so know nothing about them. I would definitely configure a PIN just in case I don't find myself mashing the shoot button and a dialog pops up and I accidentally mash the Buy for $100 button. I'm pretty sure that there isn't any game on Ouya at that price. From game.co.uk, Every OUYA game is free to try, but unlocking the game, additional features or extra play time can cost between £1 to £20. I've been quite impressed with how cheap the games are priced at so far. Your point still stands though. And that's Ouya's thing - every game must provide a no-cost playable component. If purchases could not happen in game, I expect commercial game developers might have good reason to be scared of people just playing demos and not making purchases. So it is clear to me that this mandatory credit was deliberately enforced as a marketing factor above all else. Yeah. I get that, and it's a good hook for them, but I still want to be given the choice, as a consumer. Don't give me this bullshit about it being more convenient for me when you're forcing me to do it. Me having to spend a week researching debit cards is certainly not more convenient. Yep. We're forcing you to do this because we know what's best, it's more convenient for everyone, and what's best for everyone is best for you too is a shockingly unconvincing response by the Ouya crew. On second thoughts, perhaps the Ouya crew are correct - only they mean that it's more convenient *for them* to make us do this. In the context of a game console, I'm pretty happy with the Ouya. There have been a few surprises (such as the built-in track-pad on the controller which I only discovered by accident), and of course Make being right on the main menu where you can run your software builds from. Already I have more games on my Ouya then I have for my Wii-U. - From a free software perspective however, it's been somewhat of a letdown. Apparently, the boot-loader is locked. Really? That's not what their Kickstarter page says: For hackers: root it. Go ahead. Your warranty is safe. Even the hardware is hackable. Hmm.. perhaps that link is wrong. I found a forum thread which contradicts the previous link: http://forums.ouya.tv/discussion/1380/recovery-mode/ The issue is not that the bootloader is locked... The issue is that there is no way to tell the bootloader to interrupt normal boot and enter fastboot mode. Devices usually have a hardware button combination to do this. That's even more troubling if it isn't even possible to change the operating system if necessary. So it looks like it's possible - it's just not easy, and not easy to recover from when things go bad. - -Adam -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJRz/BkAAoJEE2M/Tk0piBIN0sIAICJRbQ+X37TcRvp/yf/C+Rn aWT9rBXXlGn5h9vN+N6uEisLFnokJ8eb49wpJkGg9hNCNMGW1IP523MW2FTLRRWt QTJqTh0jkHpSi2USRkL0R6xuKTwbSWqjeACi0we3yDtiZTPb3AySOW0ekM/snSLE Fod7ixNVQRfZXrX7HUeJB636pkmdfbmRe9sIHn6bFZK+79MT6xc+crSf1ZnY0vlV
Re: [free-software-melb] Chipping in for an Ouya console?
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Adam Bolte abo...@systemsaviour.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Matt, On 30/06/13 17:35, Matt Giuca wrote: Thanks for a clear and detailed summary of your Ouya experiences. No worries. Right back at you. It sucks that there are journalists going around saying that the Ouya is less restrictive than it actually is (for certain, apparently randomly selected, customers). Yes. I have noticed this too. When I first turned on the device, there was a large firmware update that needed to be applied, so possibly in doing that it has changed the initial sign-up behavior for those of us who only very recently received our Ouya devices. Fortunately, instead of a credit card, you also have the option of using a pre-paid credit code. These were apparently available during pre-order, and can be brought from various places online. eg. http://www.game.co.uk/en/ouya-10-credit-232744 So while some available credit must be verified (which I'm not defending - this aspect of the Ouya console sucks), it seems that you don't have to hand over your credit card to Ouya to store indefinitely if you don't want to. But then I have to pay them more money up front (which I don't feel they deserve right now) and also wait for a physical card to be shipped internationally. You're right. Hopefully cdkey-hut.com or some such will add Ouya support soon, so we can pay anonymously and without waiting on postage. Still would have to pay something up-front though. I'm happier to get a general-purpose debit card. At least then I can use the credit elsewhere, not just on Ouya. There are cards that do not require opening a full bank account from Australia Post and Woolworths. I'm trying to decide which one is better. They both have some nasty drawbacks (like credit expiration and cancellation fees). Interesting. I haven't looked into them, so know nothing about them. I would definitely configure a PIN just in case I don't find myself mashing the shoot button and a dialog pops up and I accidentally mash the Buy for $100 button. I'm pretty sure that there isn't any game on Ouya at that price. From game.co.uk, Every OUYA game is free to try, but unlocking the game, additional features or extra play time can cost between £1 to £20. I've been quite impressed with how cheap the games are priced at so far. Your point still stands though. Well, this post I linked to: http://www.reddit.com/r/ouya/comments/1fygl2/warning_3_yr_old_son_just_cost_me_300_dont_let_it/ says that there was a game (EMUya) that charged $100 on a single payment. (For unlocking cheat mode no less, what a ludicrous amount of money. Any in-app purchase that expensive can only be designed to trick people or their kids into buying it.) And that's Ouya's thing - every game must provide a no-cost playable component. If purchases could not happen in game, I expect commercial game developers might have good reason to be scared of people just playing demos and not making purchases. So it is clear to me that this mandatory credit was deliberately enforced as a marketing factor above all else. Yeah. I get that, and it's a good hook for them, but I still want to be given the choice, as a consumer. Don't give me this bullshit about it being more convenient for me when you're forcing me to do it. Me having to spend a week researching debit cards is certainly not more convenient. Yep. We're forcing you to do this because we know what's best, it's more convenient for everyone, and what's best for everyone is best for you too is a shockingly unconvincing response by the Ouya crew. On second thoughts, perhaps the Ouya crew are correct - only they mean that it's more convenient *for them* to make us do this. In the context of a game console, I'm pretty happy with the Ouya. There have been a few surprises (such as the built-in track-pad on the controller which I only discovered by accident), and of course Make being right on the main menu where you can run your software builds from. Already I have more games on my Ouya then I have for my Wii-U. - From a free software perspective however, it's been somewhat of a letdown. Apparently, the boot-loader is locked. Really? That's not what their Kickstarter page says: For hackers: root it. Go ahead. Your warranty is safe. Even the hardware is hackable. Hmm.. perhaps that link is wrong. I found a forum thread which contradicts the previous link: http://forums.ouya.tv/discussion/1380/recovery-mode/ The issue is not that the bootloader is locked... The issue is that there is no way to tell the bootloader to interrupt normal boot and enter fastboot mode. Devices usually have a hardware button combination to do this. That's even more troubling if it isn't even possible to change the operating system if necessary. So it looks like it's
Re: [free-software-melb] Chipping in for an Ouya console?
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Ben Sturmfels b...@stumbles.id.au wrote: I see they've already raised $8M in pre-sales though, so perhaps there are other free software organisations that would benefit more from a donation right now. I'm thinking instead of buying a video card from Think Penguin [3]. Also the Kickstarter for Ouya is over ... I pledged for one, so if it all goes well, I'll let you guys know how it is. ___ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/free-software-melb
Re: [free-software-melb] Chipping in for an Ouya console?
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 09:44:09PM +1000, Matt Giuca wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:50 PM, Ben Sturmfels b...@stumbles.id.au wrote: I see they've already raised $8M in pre-sales though, so perhaps there are other free software organisations that would benefit more from a donation right now. I'm thinking instead of buying a video card from Think Penguin [3]. Also the Kickstarter for Ouya is over ... I pledged for one, so if it all goes well, I'll let you guys know how it is. I pre-ordered one over the weekend also. -Adam signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/free-software-melb
