RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Fafa Hafiz Krantz Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features Hello. Thank you all for everything so far. But I am not looking for comparisons. I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can understand. Let's say this: Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization. In the real world, that ought to sound more like: FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on different processors blocking each other, to give maximum performance on multiprocessor systems. Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all generally doomed to failure. You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general product. It is not. FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. Ted Thanks. -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
Ted Mittelstaedt said: FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. I agree that these 3 groups exist and that FreeBSD is probably not appropriate for those in group #3. However, I think there is another group that is not represented here. That would be those that are not in group #3 because they DO care about understanding how things work, but are also not in groups #1 or #2 because, although they may be relatively knowledgeable about computers when compared to group #3, they have never used a non-Microsoft OS. Lets call these people group #4. I think that, although Linux aspires to group #3, it is actually from group #4 which they gain most of their converts. The efforts that Linux has made to dumb down their interface make it easier for those in group #4 to understand because it is closer to what they already know. I think that projects like PCBSD are also targeting group #4 by lowering the bar for entry into the enlightened world of BSD. Having installed PCBSD a while back, I was impressed with the easy installation. Although I, being a somewhat experienced FreeBSD user, would prefer more control over the installation process, I feel confident in recommending PCBSD to friends in group #4. This is something I had stopped doing with FreeBSD because of the hand-holding necessary just to get it installed and configured enough to be even remotely usable by someone with their experience. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. I agree that there is no substitute for this learning process. Perhaps the generally high level of technical knowledge of those in the FreeBSD community can be attributed more to the weeding-out process of having to break this Catch-22 than to anything else. However, I can see benefits of lowering the cost-of-admission a little by making the installation easier, as PCBSD has done. Making it easier for newbies to get started with this learning process will increase the number who find they have what it takes to see it through and become valuable members of the FreeBSD community. -- Warren Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all generally doomed to failure. You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general product. It is not. FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. My 11 year old sister uses KDE and OpenOffice fine on FreeBSD. I think the problem arrives when setting these things up. Once these are setup, it's almost the same as Windows in my personal opinion. I once seen an Internet Cafe using FreeBSD on about 40+ machines with KDE. Am sure these users hardly noticed the difference. We should be promoting that what can be done on Linux(in terms of desktop usage) can be done on FreeBSD. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. I disagree. By 'intimately' do you mean the internals? Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. Ted -- - Liam J. Foy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
On Mon(20)/Jun/05 - , Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: Hello. I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want it clear what good things to say. Will this large article reach a large audience? =) http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. At least not in a way normal people can understand. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even mention half of FreeBSD's features. http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. Any idea, people? Thanks! -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - Liam J. Foy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Vulpes Velox wrote: Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their weight if they don't help out. This would be the real tough one. There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the people between. I found the handbook to be useful in this area. Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has problems understanding it. Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the language none IT professionals understand. The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have serious try on this one if he gets the information he needs for this. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
