Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Johnson David wrote: From: Nikolas Britton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) That's not the fault of the page, it's the fault of the browser. Neither the page nor the stylesheet are specifying a serif font, that's the browser doing it. Maybe you should go specify a different default font in your browser settings. Holy crap, duh, I didn't realize I could do that lmao... thanks This brings me to another point, if I never put two and two together what makes you thing normal people will? This is the major reasons why you hard code the font-family into your docs. here's the one I use most of the time: font-family: Verdana, Bitstream Vera Sans, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; David p.s. My apologies for not cross-posting like everyone else is. Old habits die hard... cross-posting?, is this thread still active on advocacy? The freebsd listbot unsubscribed me from all maillists because my mail server (that I have no control over) bounces everything coming from mx1.freebsd.org, It was blacklisted on SORBS. I'm procrastinating the switch over to my gmail account, so far I've only resubscribed to questions. Anyways thanks for the tip. slashdot et al. look %100 better now ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
From: Nikolas Britton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) That's not the fault of the page, it's the fault of the browser. Neither the page nor the stylesheet are specifying a serif font, that's the browser doing it. Maybe you should go specify a different default font in your browser settings. David p.s. My apologies for not cross-posting like everyone else is. Old habits die hard... ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons. That could be a daemon of -STABLE branch, but in reality... No, eudaimonia (how its spelled in greek), it's almost similar to euphoria, meaning the state where the good daimons are in control, in general it means happiness, not safety. So eudaimonia, rather describes the -CURRENT instead! -- -Achilleus ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How to improve FreeBSD (was: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?)
O Giorgos Keramidas έγραψε στις Jul 4, 2005 : On 2005-07-04 11:11, Achilleus Mantzios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons. That could be a daemon of -STABLE branch, but in reality... No, eudaimonia (how its spelled in greek), it's almost similar to euphoria, meaning the state where the good daimons are in control, in general it means happiness, not safety. So eudaimonia, rather describes the -CURRENT instead! Although I agree about the meaning of eudaemonia, the link and association with STABLE and/or CURRENT is at least far-fetched :P Can we all move on and do better things that argue about demons, daemons, evil or good spirits, the religious beliefs of everyone, and other such not-really-beneficial-for-FreeBSD things? If some of you want to help us improve FreeBSD, then stop arguing about religious and spiritual things and prove you can do something with a real impact on the current stateof FreeBSD, such as: - Submit a fix for one of the existing bugs - Improve an existing feature - Add new features - etc. Since when in the advocacy/chat lists do people discuss about anything of the above you mentioned? If an OS wants to show (off) that manly, then leave only 2 lists : -hackers, and -current, (ok and -stable for the incompetent poor users). If, on the other hand, by this way, you want to express some call for arms for potential FreeBSD kernel/port developers,(fishing them from these light lists), then i doubt you choose the right way. Regards, Giorgos -- -Achilleus ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
jsha wrote: Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. If you have the time, desire, and talent to address these issues, I'd love to see the results. I'd caution about being inflamatory in your first statement, though. The logo was definitely not done by a 10 yr old with PSPro, and it has emotional significance to many people. I'd definitely like to see what your ideas are for a replacement. Scott ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
John-Mark Gurney wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... Yes As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=./index.css / And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. learn something new everyday, thanks for the tip. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Nikolas Britton wrote: From a business perspective we look amateurish. I have held off thus far... I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and Image conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. 1. The FreeBSD logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect FreeBSD part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the logo 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? 3. The color scheme is not complementary anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Snip - not worth repeating. FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. -- Best regards, Chris ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
It was fun while it lasted. Please stop. If you have to, move this to chat. -- Stefan Bethke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fon +49 170 346 0140 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Ramiro Aceves wrote: jsha wrote: 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the devil. It's a daemon. BSD Daemon. Many people equate the word ``daemon'' with the word ``demon,'' implying some kind of Satanic connection between UNIX and the underworld. This is an egregious misunderstanding. ``Daemon'' is actually a much older form of ``demon''; daemons have no particular bias towards good or evil, but rather serve to help define a person's character or personality. The ancient Greeks' concept of a ``personal daemon'' was similar to the modern concept of a ``guardian angel'' --- ``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons. quote from: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html Regards, Karol -- Karol Kwiatkowski freebsd at orchid dot homeunix dot org ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Going to reply to the whole thread so far. jsha said: 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years Although I don't like the tone of the other replies, I agree with their sentiment, beasty is as much a part of FreeBSD as the family dog is a part of the family. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. I don't think the website is all that ugly, personally, however, a new design isn't out of the question. So long as content and navigation is somewhat preserved. I've found certain things difficult to find again when I remember that I saw them somewhere, and I've been using FreeBSD for 7 years now. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. This is on many people's minds, including my own. Now that the holidays are upon us I'm going to try and spend a little of my free time working on putting my ideas into code. Or, I might look again at FreeBSDIE and bsdinstaller and seeing what it would take to bring them into the tree. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behing a business card. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? If you feel it needs to be done, and you would like to work on it, more power to you! Come up with a concept design and submit it for review. I think there are definite improvments to be made in the eyes of the new-comer. I believe there is a www@ team is there not? Might try posting to that list and see what you come up with. FreeBSD survives off people spending time where they see fit. If web-dev and graphic arts is your thing and you want to contribute, I for one will give you the time to submit my opinion of your work. Daniel Blendea said: 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. This is hardly the way to represent and argument. There is no need to be profane at someone for expressing their ideas to aid the project. It should be encouraged. Others, please don't feed the troll. Simon Burke said: Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD would no longer be such a great operating system. The code developers don't have to spend time on web-dev and graphics. But if there is a willing body that might not be able to work on the code but has talent in the user-interface, web-development, and graphic arts field, why not let them give their time to the project in a manner that fits their skills? Please don't bash or make light of those that contribute things other than code. Rock on doc@ team. Code or not you've done a great job. It takes many skillsets to develop and maintain a tool such as FreeBSD code is just one of them. -- Ryan Sommers [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 09:40:00PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: [ Choosing a random(ish) post to reply to - I am on holiday right now and I will not pretend to have read the whole thread ] 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=./index.css / I just committed that before I left for holidays; it is only a first step towards CSS'ing the site, and once the conversion to CSS is complete then it should be simple to have an a best stylesheet competition or similar (something along those lines was discussed on doc@ a couple of weeks ago). Matt Seaman posted a link to a crappy here is what CSS can do mockup that I posted to doc@ just before the commit mentioned above - it's at http://shrike.submonkey.net/~ceri/data2/index.html (be sure to let all the images load - this is on a slow link - and be aware that it doesn't work properly in IE for reasons that DES mentioned elsewhere). Once the conversion to CSS is complete then I have ideas for a way to offer users a personalised stylesheet (subject to implementation [I do not have a computer with me] and benchmarking [it is likely to be a little slow, though this remains to be seen]), and then you will all whine like bitchen about being asked to accept a cookie. Simon@ also has a parallel project running to redesign the site on a more fundamental which is showing promise; my main focus at present is to migrate all style related bits into stylesheets, at which point it will be easy to mess around with colour/font/layout. At present, it is not. So yes, to whoever asked the question, we have heard of CSS and we have not only been using it (minimally) for over three years, but there is real activity in improving what we do have already. And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. Stimmt. Ceri -- Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-- Einstein (attrib.) pgppCJtYYxISF.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
This beyond a doubt is one of the best explanations that I have seen, heard, expressed, etc., of how the fsck'ed up world of business does IT stuff, and I have done IT consulting on various levels for over 18 years. Very well said Ted. It points out quite well why BSD in general has a bad time in the marketplace. Regards, Frank At 11:36 PM 12/27/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a Windows installation. The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the Windows consultants they drag in all tell them I can't do that either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of if you don't like it fix it yourself. I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers. Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand Clearly, you have not tried to sell FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. -- Best regards, Chris You can't expect to hit the jackpot if you don't put a few nickles in the machine. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand Clearly, you have not tried to sell FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Chris wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote: From a business perspective we look amateurish. I have held off thus far... I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and Image conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? hmm?, fuck no I hate penguins (esp Linux ones), there's nothing wrong with chucky Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? No, just a better image in the enterprises and data centers of the world. I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? I guess I did step your toe's and ego, I was only trying to give constructive criticism. 1. The FreeBSD logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect FreeBSD part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the logo I DON'T want it redesigned (like NetBSD did) just re-done... same logo just better looking, image is everything you know. 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? No, it's a web standard: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ also it would be a good idea to look into XHTML: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ 3. The color scheme is not complementary anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Yes I can tell, I was trying to offer some helpfull tips Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Yes Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? I don't like pastels ether, to girly, I like bold and neutral colors. If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. I watch the history channel most of the time or the courses offered by the local college on channel 20 , I really think TLC has gone down hill with all the trading spaces type shows, though page is cute. It's just that I've always had a good eye for this type of stuff. 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... That is true. I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Snip - not worth repeating. FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Colin J. Raven wrote: On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of the engine. One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. Merry Christmas, Nikolas ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. The reason? Like there was only one reason to like an os? I like FreeBSD due to its lack of bells and whistles, but I also like it due to its stability, performance, ease of use and license, among many other reasons. Maybe I should have made that more clear, I do not wish to come across as a guy that favours an os based on one reason alone. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' I think we have a missunderstanding here. I already work for a big corporation. When I said that I was trying to sell FreeBSD, I meant that I was trying to get the company that I work for to chose FreeBSD over some other product. Im not a consultant of any kind, Im a fulltime employed technician trying to keep my employers network up and running. FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. As I explained earlier, Im not selling anything. We are several technicians at my company, some of us prefer BSD while others prefer linux, windows, sun or whatever the flavour of the day is. Everytime we get a new bunch of servers or a new task needs to be done, there is a religious war before we decide what os to use. Most of the time, the board wants a say in decisions like this, and BSD almost always loses this, due to a very unproffesional image. Since the company already has the expertise inhouse, the hardware has been ordered and everything is paid, they dont give a shit about price. When I tell them that BSD can do everything they want and do it good, they listen. When I tell them that its free, they listen but they dont really care. When the linux guys makes exactly the same claims and also is able to back
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of the engine. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. thank you for reading and please excuse my excited tone, Daniel On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100, jsha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
