Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Gavin Atkinson wrote: On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 12:24 -0400, Fbsd8 wrote: Changing the cancel button in the kbdmap command to skip, does not address the problem, which is the lack of knowledge of the standard bsdinstall user. I've been using Freebsd since 4.0 and never used the kbdmap command or for that matter even knew it existed. Interesting. Sysinstall has asked for country information and then asked you to choose a keymap (using kbdmap) if you selected a non-default country as the first two questions (i.e. before you get the sysinstall menu) since 6.1. Would that be a good solution still? Some of the other points brought up later about wanting to switch between two different keymaps seem sensible too, though I don't initially see how that would be possible. Gavin In sysinstall you are presented with a dailog that asks you if you want to change the keyboard map and if answered yes them issues the kbdmap command. In bsdinstall you have no option to bypass the keymap step. It just issues the kbdmap command. I agree that some method to bypass the keymap step in bsdinstall needs to be added or an dialog informing the user that selecting the cancel button in kbdmap will result in the default map used in previous releases to be used. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
On 25 September 2011 01:30, Fbsd8 fb...@a1poweruser.com wrote: In sysinstall you are presented with a dailog that asks you if you want to change the keyboard map and if answered yes them issues the kbdmap command. In bsdinstall you have no option to bypass the keymap step. It just issues the kbdmap command. I agree that some method to bypass the keymap step in bsdinstall needs to be added or an dialog informing the user that selecting the cancel button in kbdmap will result in the default map used in previous releases to be used. That sounds sensible. It's all just bourne shell script, right? Would you mind doing up a patch to do that? Adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Adrian Chadd wrote: On 25 September 2011 01:30, Fbsd8 fb...@a1poweruser.com wrote: In sysinstall you are presented with a dailog that asks you if you want to change the keyboard map and if answered yes them issues the kbdmap command. In bsdinstall you have no option to bypass the keymap step. It just issues the kbdmap command. I agree that some method to bypass the keymap step in bsdinstall needs to be added or an dialog informing the user that selecting the cancel button in kbdmap will result in the default map used in previous releases to be used. That sounds sensible. It's all just bourne shell script, right? Would you mind doing up a patch to do that? Adrian http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=160913 Heres the pr. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 12:24 -0400, Fbsd8 wrote: Changing the cancel button in the kbdmap command to skip, does not address the problem, which is the lack of knowledge of the standard bsdinstall user. I've been using Freebsd since 4.0 and never used the kbdmap command or for that matter even knew it existed. Interesting. Sysinstall has asked for country information and then asked you to choose a keymap (using kbdmap) if you selected a non-default country as the first two questions (i.e. before you get the sysinstall menu) since 6.1. Would that be a good solution still? Some of the other points brought up later about wanting to switch between two different keymaps seem sensible too, though I don't initially see how that would be possible. Gavin -- Gavin Atkinson FreeBSD committer and bugmeister GPG: A093262B (313A A79F 697D 3A5C 216A EDF5 935D EF44 A093 262B) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
I don't think not asking the question is the right answer. Asking about the keyboard layout during installation is the right thing to do; working with the wrong one is difficult and not everyone has a standard US keyboard. I think the problem is that the keymap names are kind of obscure, making it hard for users who aren't already familiar with FreeBSD internals to know which one to pick. Many Linux installers ask for a keymap during installation, but they give fairly clear names for the keymaps like US English 105-key, making it easy to pick one that's likely to work. When I installed FreeBSD-9.0-BETA it took me two tries to find a layout that works because it's far from clear what will yield normal behavior. I tried the United States of America Traditional UNIX Workstation one first (traditional! It must be standard, right?) and found I had no working Ctrl key. Eventually I landed on United States of America ISO-8859-1, which worked, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a new user to know what ISO-8859-1 is and whether they have it. Surely we can name these layouts a bit more clearly? I think that would solve most of the problem. I would offer a patch but I'm the wrong person to do it, since they make no sense to me. ;) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Now I must point out that I tested hitting the cancel button in the
kbdmap command. It worked in that no keymap= statement was inserted into
/etc/rc.conf but it must also make some other changes some where else in
the system because if you do select an entry from the kbdmap database
and them remove the keymap= statement that was inserted into
/etc/rc.conf and then reboot the system, it will hang on reboot.
Another point of interest is when selecting cancel for the default
keyboard still results in the block of 9 keys above the arrow keys to
not function. Issuing the man cmd_name command does display the man
page, but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work. Also when using the
ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down don't work. There may
be more system utility commands with the same flaw.
This may indicate that the default keyboard map in kbdmap command has
changed, is not the same as in previous releases or some thing else in
the 9.0 system has changed. In either case this needs research.
Joe
I continued to research this problem and found the cause.
The content of 9.0 /etc/ttys has changed, (IE; cons25 is now xtern).
I have some changes in ttys on 8.2 and I just copied that file over to
9.0 without looking at the content. The block of 9 keys above the arrow
keys now work correctly.
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Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
I continued to research this problem and found the cause. The content of 9.0 /etc/ttys has changed, (IE; cons25 is now xtern). I have some changes in ttys on 8.2 and I just copied that file over to 9.0 without looking at the content. The block of 9 keys above the arrow keys now work correctly. I saw the keyboard layout and there are many :(, I don't even know if I have a standard 101/105 US keyboard. When I press up arrow, I get an 8 on the screen :( I was going to ask on another thread/create a new thread, but I guess this one is the correct one to ask? Regards, Antonio ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
On 17 September 2011 22:42, Fbsd8 fb...@a1poweruser.com wrote:
Chris Rees wrote:
On 17 Sep 2011 17:25, Fbsd8 fb...@a1poweruser.com wrote:
Nathan Whitehorn wrote:
On 09/15/11 14:57, Fbsd8 wrote:
Out of the 9 USA maps only us.iso.acc.kbd worked somewhat.
The keyboard 9 key block above the arrow keys don't function.
Issuing the man cmd_name command doe's display the man page,
but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work.
Also when using the ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down
keys } don't work. This does not happen in any of the previous
releases.
Further more, localization of the keyboard should not be forced on
the
user during the install process. This BSDinstall option should be
disabled or removed.
You can press Cancel there, which will cancel keymap selection and
keep the default. The utility being invoked is just kbdmap(1), and any
changes to it need to go there.
-Nathan
.. maybe name that button skip then?
The button is provided by kbdmap, as is the entire screen. We could add
an installer mode to kbdmap that names it skip instead of cancel, of
course. I'm traveling for another 2 weeks and won't have time to do
that,
however.
-Nathan
Nathan
Its good to be talking directly with the bsdinstall author.
Changing the cancel button in the kbdmap command to skip, does not
address
the problem, which is the lack of knowledge of the standard bsdinstall
user.
I've been using Freebsd since 4.0 and never used the kbdmap command or for
that matter even knew it existed.
Wait, are you suggesting that everyone on Earth can make do with the
standard keyboard layout until they learn rc.conf syntax?
I would strongly object if localisation of the keyboard were not forced
on
the user; we don't all use pc105-us, and the ability to use the keyboard
properly early on is kinda helpful.
Chris
You would help yourself a great deal if you read the complete post before
jumping in. The rest of the post (ie: the part you neglected to include in
your post) clearly describes what I am suggesting.
I had read the rest of your post, and found it rather difficult to
follow. The fact remains that every other installer I have ever used
gives the user the choice of keymap, so I don't really understand your
problem.
If you're not suggesting removing localisation from bsdinstall, then
please accept my apologies.
Chris
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Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Hello, Chris. You wrote 18 сентября 2011 г., 12:03:34: I had read the rest of your post, and found it rather difficult to follow. The fact remains that every other installer I have ever used gives the user the choice of keymap, so I don't really understand your problem. IMHO, main problem is, that in bsdinstall it is completely unclear how to have English keymap and other one and switch between them. For example, it is very natural to select Russian in Russia, but, nobody (ok, may be ALMOST nobody) in Russia want to enter Russian hostname, usernames and root password. And it is completely unobvious how to switch back to English after selecting Russian keymap. I think, other national keymaps have exactly same problem. And if Western-European ones allow to enter basic ASCII letters (and only add some diacritics, and, maybe, alert keys placement, like Z-A swap), and things like Dvorak allows it too (for sure!), but more specific national keymaps doesn't contain ASCII (Latin) letters at all. IMHO, selecting one and only one keymap without selecting at leas two of them and switching key have very limited use. It could be used to select variants of English maps (QWERTY vs Dvorak, different placement of additional characters, etc) and to select Latin-based maps with some extended characters. All other (Russian and other Cyrillic, Japan, Arabic, etc.,) need TWO keymaps right at installation time and configurable/known way to switch between them. -- // Black Lion AKA Lev Serebryakov l...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Hi all, Just keep in mind that Nathan is currently on holiday. Please don't be disenheartened if he doesn't reply or if bsdinstaller isn't 'fixed' until then. As always, patches == best. Adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
On 09/15/11 14:57, Fbsd8 wrote:
Out of the 9 USA maps only us.iso.acc.kbd worked somewhat.
The keyboard 9 key block above the arrow keys don't function.
Issuing the man cmd_name command doe's display the man page,
but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work.
Also when using the ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down
keys } don't work. This does not happen in any of the previous releases.
Further more, localization of the keyboard should not be forced on the
user during the install process. This BSDinstall option should be
disabled or removed.
You can press Cancel there, which will cancel keymap selection and
keep the default. The utility being invoked is just kbdmap(1), and any
changes to it need to go there.
-Nathan
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Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
.. maybe name that button skip then? Adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
On 09/17/11 10:04, Adrian Chadd wrote: .. maybe name that button skip then? The button is provided by kbdmap, as is the entire screen. We could add an installer mode to kbdmap that names it skip instead of cancel, of course. I'm traveling for another 2 weeks and won't have time to do that, however. -Nathan ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Nathan Whitehorn wrote:
On 09/15/11 14:57, Fbsd8 wrote:
Out of the 9 USA maps only us.iso.acc.kbd worked somewhat.
The keyboard 9 key block above the arrow keys don't function.
Issuing the man cmd_name command doe's display the man page,
but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work.
Also when using the ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down
keys } don't work. This does not happen in any of the previous releases.
Further more, localization of the keyboard should not be forced on the
user during the install process. This BSDinstall option should be
disabled or removed.
You can press Cancel there, which will cancel keymap selection and
keep the default. The utility being invoked is just kbdmap(1), and any
changes to it need to go there.
-Nathan
.. maybe name that button skip then?
The button is provided by kbdmap, as is the entire screen. We could
add an installer mode to kbdmap that names it skip instead of cancel,
of course. I'm traveling for another 2 weeks and won't have time to do
that, however.
-Nathan
Nathan
Its good to be talking directly with the bsdinstall author.
Changing the cancel button in the kbdmap command to skip, does not
address the problem, which is the lack of knowledge of the standard
bsdinstall user. I've been using Freebsd since 4.0 and never used the
kbdmap command or for that matter even knew it existed.
The real question is not how to change the kbdmap command but one of
should bsdinstall even be presenting this option? Localization of
Freebsd has all ways been a advanced configuration task in previous
releases and maybe it should remain that way. Even in the comments of
bsdinstall you call this option as optional. The easiest solution is
just to comment out this code in bsdinstall.
As you stated above selecting the cancel button will keep the default.
How is the bsdinstall user suppose to know this? Changing 'cancel to
skip still does not address the problem that users are NOT going to
know that doing so will give them the old default. This is a good case
for a help dialog screen.
One way to keep the localization option is to add an informational
bsdinstall dialog screen asking the user if they want to modify this
install to use a keyboard that is language specific, (ie: Japanese
keyboard, Russian keyboard, ect). Including a statement saying that
selecting localization will launch the system kbdmap command, and then
selecting the cancel button will result in the default used in previous
releases to be used. This gives the user the information needed to base
a intelligent decision on and keeps the kbdmap command unchanged.
Another way would be to add an entry to the top of kbdmap command
database labeled (default) description so its highlighted on the
initial display and hitting enter will take this selection.
Now I must point out that I tested hitting the cancel button in the
kbdmap command. It worked in that no keymap= statement was inserted into
/etc/rc.conf but it must also make some other changes some where else in
the system because if you do select an entry from the kbdmap database
and them remove the keymap= statement that was inserted into
/etc/rc.conf and then reboot the system, it will hang on reboot.
Another point of interest is when selecting cancel for the default
keyboard still results in the block of 9 keys above the arrow keys to
not function. Issuing the man cmd_name command does display the man
page, but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work. Also when using the
ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down don't work. There may
be more system utility commands with the same flaw.
This may indicate that the default keyboard map in kbdmap command has
changed, is not the same as in previous releases or some thing else in
the 9.0 system has changed. In either case this needs research.
Joe
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Re: 9.0 bata2 keymap
Chris Rees wrote:
On 17 Sep 2011 17:25, Fbsd8 fb...@a1poweruser.com wrote:
Nathan Whitehorn wrote:
On 09/15/11 14:57, Fbsd8 wrote:
Out of the 9 USA maps only us.iso.acc.kbd worked somewhat.
The keyboard 9 key block above the arrow keys don't function.
Issuing the man cmd_name command doe's display the man page,
but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work.
Also when using the ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down
keys } don't work. This does not happen in any of the previous
releases.
Further more, localization of the keyboard should not be forced on the
user during the install process. This BSDinstall option should be
disabled or removed.
You can press Cancel there, which will cancel keymap selection and
keep the default. The utility being invoked is just kbdmap(1), and any
changes to it need to go there.
-Nathan
.. maybe name that button skip then?
The button is provided by kbdmap, as is the entire screen. We could add
an installer mode to kbdmap that names it skip instead of cancel, of
course. I'm traveling for another 2 weeks and won't have time to do that,
however.
-Nathan
Nathan
Its good to be talking directly with the bsdinstall author.
Changing the cancel button in the kbdmap command to skip, does not address
the problem, which is the lack of knowledge of the standard bsdinstall user.
I've been using Freebsd since 4.0 and never used the kbdmap command or for
that matter even knew it existed.
Wait, are you suggesting that everyone on Earth can make do with the
standard keyboard layout until they learn rc.conf syntax?
I would strongly object if localisation of the keyboard were not forced on
the user; we don't all use pc105-us, and the ability to use the keyboard
properly early on is kinda helpful.
Chris
You would help yourself a great deal if you read the complete post
before jumping in. The rest of the post (ie: the part you neglected to
include in your post) clearly describes what I am suggesting.
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9.0 bata2 keymap
Out of the 9 USA maps only us.iso.acc.kbd worked somewhat.
The keyboard 9 key block above the arrow keys don't function.
Issuing the man cmd_name command doe's display the man page,
but the {Page up, Page down keys } don't work.
Also when using the ee edit command the {delete, Page up, Page down
keys } don't work. This does not happen in any of the previous releases.
Further more, localization of the keyboard should not be forced on the
user during the install process. This BSDinstall option should be
disabled or removed.
___
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