Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 03:29:12PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > No, everything seems real - at least Matt replies to e-mails > > sent to him on this topic. There is also a live nntp server > > up and running @ dragonflybsd.org, I saw Matt and Terry Lambert > > discussing kernel things this morning there. I doubt that somebody > > will be able to impersonate both Matt and Terry. :)) > > A Markov chain script could do a fairly passable impersonation of the > latter. 8^p. -- Terry ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:Wouldn't it be possible to achive the same result without the VFS with :well organized lib subdirs? like "usr/lib/xyzlib1.2/" and :"usr/lib/xyzlib1.3/" which would maintain the install for any given :version of a lib? In other words, instead of just dumping all the libs :into the one place, you simply place them into sub folders instead and :then link them as needed? Granted this would cause havoc for things like :LD_LIBRARY_PATH. I never did like the way we dump things in the lib :dir's, its messy. The VFS idea is interesting, but it like cleaning the :mess by sending parts of the big mess into another dimention, making it :a trans-dimentional mess (technically a larger mess). This throws away :the KISS principle. Not unless one wanted to make major modifications to all the third party applications out there, which nobody really wants to do, because hacking all those programs up makes it difficult to track updates. :> taken for granted. Begin userland VFSs with the capability of :> overlaying the entire filesystem space, these environments would be :> extremely powerful. : :I suspect this ability would usefull for other things too, possibly for :security lock-downs on shell users env's without chrooting them as an :example. : :-Jon Yes, Exactly. -Matt Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Matthew Dillon wrote: A Packaging system is a very important piece of any distribution. Our goal will be to create a packaging system that, via VFS 'environments', causes any particular package to see only the dependancies that it depends on, and the proper version of said dependancies as well. Multiple versions of third party apps that normally conflict with each other could be installed simultaniously. The packaging-system-controlled VFS environment would also hide everything a package does not depend on, like other libraries in the system, in order to guarentee that the dependancies listed in the packaging system are in fact what the application depends on. There's no point in having a packaging system that can't detect broken and incorrect dependancies or we wind up with the same mess that we have with ports. Wouldn't it be possible to achive the same result without the VFS with well organized lib subdirs? like "usr/lib/xyzlib1.2/" and "usr/lib/xyzlib1.3/" which would maintain the install for any given version of a lib? In other words, instead of just dumping all the libs into the one place, you simply place them into sub folders instead and then link them as needed? Granted this would cause havoc for things like LD_LIBRARY_PATH. I never did like the way we dump things in the lib dir's, its messy. The VFS idea is interesting, but it like cleaning the mess by sending parts of the big mess into another dimention, making it a trans-dimentional mess (technically a larger mess). This throws away the KISS principle. To make this work the VFS environment would have to be able to run as a userland process. Otherwise we would never be able to throw in the type of flexibility and sophistication required to make it do what we want it to do, and the kernel interfacing would have to be quite robust. I want to make these environments so ubiquitous that they are simply taken for granted. Begin userland VFSs with the capability of overlaying the entire filesystem space, these environments would be extremely powerful. I suspect this ability would usefull for other things too, possibly for security lock-downs on shell users env's without chrooting them as an example. -Jon It might be possible to build this new packaging system on top of the existing ports infrastructure. It will be several months (possibly 6-12 months) before the kernelland is sufficienctly progressed to be able to imlpement the userland VFS concept so we have a lot of time to think about how to do it. -Matt Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:Matthew, :OK, you want a divergent kernel, EG src/sys/ , fair enough. : : - Are there any benefits to the BSD community in having :a 4th BSD bin/ sbin/ usr.bin/ usr.sbin/ ? :Can you not share & co-operate with toolset maintainers of NetBSD :or OpenBSD, even if you can't work with some FreeBSD CVS people ? I don't think these particular subhiearchies are that big a deal. Except for libc and libc_r, most of the above will wind up being almost identical to their 4.x counterparts. You know the old saying... if it aint broke... One big part of the goal set will be the creation of a middle 'emulation' layer which is managed by the kernel but runs in userland, which will take over all primary system call entry points (in userland) and convert them to syscall messages that the kernel understands. 4.x, 5.x, SysV, Linux, and other compatibility sets will be moved out of the kernel and into this middle layer. Even the 'native' syscall set will run through an emulation layer (though being aware of it the native sets will call the emulation layer directly rather then bounce through the kernel). The advantage of this methodology is that we will be able to keep the kernel clean. For example, we would be able to modify how certain syscall messages work and simply by fixing the backend of the appropriate emulation layers we can maintain binary compatibility with any past userland. The emulation layer would be fully versioned so older userland programs use emulation layers targeted to older APIs, and newer userland programs use emulation layers targeted to newer APIs. So there would no longer be five different versions of stat() in the kernel, for example. There might be five different versions of the '4.x emulation layer', but there would be only *ONE* stat in the kernel. : - Do you intend your own ports/ collection too ? (or Free, Net or Open ?) : :- :Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. A Packaging system is a very important piece of any distribution. Our goal will be to create a packaging system that, via VFS 'environments', causes any particular package to see only the dependancies that it depends on, and the proper version of said dependancies as well. Multiple versions of third party apps that normally conflict with each other could be installed simultaniously. The packaging-system-controlled VFS environment would also hide everything a package does not depend on, like other libraries in the system, in order to guarentee that the dependancies listed in the packaging system are in fact what the application depends on. There's no point in having a packaging system that can't detect broken and incorrect dependancies or we wind up with the same mess that we have with ports. To make this work the VFS environment would have to be able to run as a userland process. Otherwise we would never be able to throw in the type of flexibility and sophistication required to make it do what we want it to do, and the kernel interfacing would have to be quite robust. I want to make these environments so ubiquitous that they are simply taken for granted. Begin userland VFSs with the capability of overlaying the entire filesystem space, these environments would be extremely powerful. It might be possible to build this new packaging system on top of the existing ports infrastructure. It will be several months (possibly 6-12 months) before the kernelland is sufficienctly progressed to be able to imlpement the userland VFS concept so we have a lot of time to think about how to do it. -Matt Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
> What does that have to do with anything? Matt is free to spend his time > and resources as he sees fit. There is no "BSD project fork approval board". I guess it was just a question don't flame him... -- Pierrick Brossin IT Employee - Quark Media House Switzerland Mail: pbrossin_AT_swissgeeks(dot)com Web: http://www.swissgeeks.com ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 02:47:48PM +0200, Julian Stacey wrote: > - Are there any benefits to the BSD community in having > a 4th BSD bin/ sbin/ usr.bin/ usr.sbin/ ? What does that have to do with anything? Matt is free to spend his time and resources as he sees fit. There is no "BSD project fork approval board". DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > To: "Julian Stacey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:48:17 +0200 > Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Idiot. > > $ whois dragonflybsd.org > [...] > Registrant: >Matthew Dillon Dag, Do not post personal abuse to the list ! I already covered whois, the day before: > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:14:05 +0200 (CEST) > From: Julian Stacey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > whois dragonflybsd.org > Created on: 14-JUL-03 > Whois Server:whois.dotster.com > ... www.dotster.com/help/whois > 1 page didnt respond, 1 wanted a login & password ! > Hmm, typing this command a second time I nopw see extra info: > Registrant: >Matthew Dillon >41 Vicente Rd >... > I've a feeeling I didnt get that first time. ? whois didn't give me human traceable info first time, (maybe servers were reconfiguring, or there was a net problem, then I couldnt get any human info re. domain from other tools, just just the dotster block. Thanks to those who told me of `host` command (I'd only used `nslookup`, `whois` & http://www.dnsreport.com, (& hadn't used `dig`)). Thanks to those who confirmed Matthew Dillon's announcement is real. Matthew, OK, you want a divergent kernel, EG src/sys/ , fair enough. - Are there any benefits to the BSD community in having a 4th BSD bin/ sbin/ usr.bin/ usr.sbin/ ? Can you not share & co-operate with toolset maintainers of NetBSD or OpenBSD, even if you can't work with some FreeBSD CVS people ? - Do you intend your own ports/ collection too ? (or Free, Net or Open ?) - Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
"Julian Stacey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. Those targeted > by trolls need to work extra hard to establish credibility of > poster's address, to avoid suspicion of "troll at work" (phone > number maybe?). Trolls of course need to work extra hard too, to > also convince us. Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew > Dillon, but I doubt it. Idiot. $ whois dragonflybsd.org [...] Registrant: Matthew Dillon 41 Vicente Rd Berkeley, CA 94705 US Registrar: DOTSTER Domain Name: DRAGONFLYBSD.ORG Created on: 14-JUL-03 Expires on: 15-JUL-05 Last Updated on: 14-JUL-03 Administrative, Technical Contact: Dillon, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] 41 Vicente Rd Berkeley, CA 94705 US 510 848 9745 Domain servers in listed order: APOLLO.BACKPLANE.COM NS.IDIOM.COM NS2.IDIOM.COM End of Whois Information DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Chuck Robey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: CR> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Brian Reichert wrote: CR> CR> > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 08:56:56PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: CR> > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Gregory Sutter wrote: CR> > > CR> > > To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet CR> > > convinced that branching off 4.X is a good thing. CR> > CR> > Gosh, if only there were a DragonFly BSD mailing list, so we _can_ CR> > keep on topic somewhere. :) CR> CR> If follks would keep the traffic down, I could host it, but I only CR> have a DSL link, it's not enough for a lot of traffic. Go back and read Matts original posting - there *is* one. To save you the bother of looking for it here is the relevant bit: - Anyone interested in working on or discussing the project is welcome! I have created a mailing list server and newsgroup forums and I am working on web-accessibility to same for passive listeners. I will be posting periodic updates to freebsd-hackers as well. - -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins.|A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 03:29:12PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > No, everything seems real - at least Matt replies to e-mails > sent to him on this topic. There is also a live nntp server > up and running @ dragonflybsd.org, I saw Matt and Terry Lambert > discussing kernel things this morning there. I doubt that somebody > will be able to impersonate both Matt and Terry. :)) A Markov chain script could do a fairly passable impersonation of the latter. Kris pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:> before :complaints start up. We can advertise later, if it's necessary. :> :> I've got a bunch of mailing lists already set up on dragonflybsd.org. :I didn't notice. Sorry for stepping all over you. : :LER : :Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler No biggy! I would have gotten back to you sooner but I've been typing nearly uninterrupted for 6 hours answering email and just now catching up. The dragonfly lists will be where most of the meat is, but I will certainly post major achievements to -hackers. I also hope to get a list archive browser interface up today or tomorrow for lurkers. -Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
--On Thursday, July 17, 2003 19:35:54 -0700 Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: :> I also have the disk space. :> :> Let me know if you are interested. : :I'm happy with it, but right now, until we get a bit more organized, we :only need one yea vote: Matt's. I *don't* want to inconvenience his plans :any (especially not when I'm really sure I don't understand them all :yet). : :Is Larry's offer OK with you, Matt? We need off the FreeBSD lists, before :complaints start up. We can advertise later, if it's necessary. I've got a bunch of mailing lists already set up on dragonflybsd.org. I didn't notice. Sorry for stepping all over you. LER -Matt -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:> I also have the disk space. :> :> Let me know if you are interested. : :I'm happy with it, but right now, until we get a bit more organized, we :only need one yea vote: Matt's. I *don't* want to inconvenience his plans :any (especially not when I'm really sure I don't understand them all :yet). : :Is Larry's offer OK with you, Matt? We need off the FreeBSD lists, before :complaints start up. We can advertise later, if it's necessary. I've got a bunch of mailing lists already set up on dragonflybsd.org. -Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On 2003-07-17 21:31 -0400, Chuck Robey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Larry Rosenman wrote: > > > I have a 768/768 DSL line, and mailman all set up. > > > > I also have the disk space. > > > > Let me know if you are interested. > > I'm happy with it, but right now, until we get a bit more organized, we > only need one yea vote: Matt's. I *don't* want to inconvenience his plans > any (especially not when I'm really sure I don't understand them all > yet). Right, what you said. Please ignore previous post. :) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] "You uudecode it." http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On 2003-07-17 21:10 -0400, Chuck Robey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Brian Reichert wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 08:56:56PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > > To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet convinced that > > > branching off 4.X is a good thing. > > > > Gosh, if only there were a DragonFly BSD mailing list, so we _can_ > > keep on topic somewhere. :) > > If follks would keep the traffic down, I could host it, but I only have a > DSL link, it's not enough for a lot of traffic. > > If no one does it by Friday night, I'll host one myself. Until then > folks, please bear with us, we haven't anywhere else to go to. Here is the list of current Dragonfly fora (newsgroups _and_ mailing lists): http://www.dragonflybsd.org/Main/forums.cgi I submit that it would be more respectful to ask Matt to host any Dragonfly related lists first, creating your own forum only if he declined. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter One of the lessons of history is that mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nothing is often a good thing to do-- http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ and always a clever thing to say. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD--Will Durant pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Larry Rosenman wrote: > I have a 768/768 DSL line, and mailman all set up. > > I also have the disk space. > > Let me know if you are interested. I'm happy with it, but right now, until we get a bit more organized, we only need one yea vote: Matt's. I *don't* want to inconvenience his plans any (especially not when I'm really sure I don't understand them all yet). Is Larry's offer OK with you, Matt? We need off the FreeBSD lists, before complaints start up. We can advertise later, if it's necessary. > > LER > > > --On Thursday, July 17, 2003 21:10:26 -0400 Chuck Robey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Brian Reichert wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 08:56:56PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > >> > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Gregory Sutter wrote: > >> > > >> > To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet convinced > >> > that branching off 4.X is a good thing. > >> > >> Gosh, if only there were a DragonFly BSD mailing list, so we _can_ > >> keep on topic somewhere. :) > > > > If follks would keep the traffic down, I could host it, but I only have a > > DSL link, it's not enough for a lot of traffic. > > > > If no one does it by Friday night, I'll host one myself. Until then > > folks, please bear with us, we haven't anywhere else to go to. > > > >> > >> > > > > - > > --- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and SF/Fantasy. > > > > New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking > > up fictitious words in the dictionary. > > - > > --- ___ > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > > > > > > Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and SF/Fantasy. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
I have a 768/768 DSL line, and mailman all set up. I also have the disk space. Let me know if you are interested. LER --On Thursday, July 17, 2003 21:10:26 -0400 Chuck Robey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Brian Reichert wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 08:56:56PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet convinced > that branching off 4.X is a good thing. Gosh, if only there were a DragonFly BSD mailing list, so we _can_ keep on topic somewhere. :) If follks would keep the traffic down, I could host it, but I only have a DSL link, it's not enough for a lot of traffic. If no one does it by Friday night, I'll host one myself. Until then folks, please bear with us, we haven't anywhere else to go to. - --- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and SF/Fantasy. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. - --- ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Brian Reichert wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 08:56:56PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet convinced that > > branching off 4.X is a good thing. > > Gosh, if only there were a DragonFly BSD mailing list, so we _can_ > keep on topic somewhere. :) If follks would keep the traffic down, I could host it, but I only have a DSL link, it's not enough for a lot of traffic. If no one does it by Friday night, I'll host one myself. Until then folks, please bear with us, we haven't anywhere else to go to. > > Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and SF/Fantasy. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 08:56:56PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet convinced that > branching off 4.X is a good thing. Gosh, if only there were a DragonFly BSD mailing list, so we _can_ keep on topic somewhere. :) -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 37 Crystal Ave. #303Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA BSD admin/developer at large ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Gregory Sutter wrote: To drag this back to more interesting topics, I'm not yet convinced that branching off 4.X is a good thing. I see all the mound of work to make things work with mutexes, and it still seems like a good thing, and something that CAN be still leveraged, even in a messaging prardigm. I'll admit I might be wrong, but I'd sure appreciate a bit of discussion about it. I *like* the mutex idea, at base, and I really hate to lose the work. > On 2003-07-17 08:57 -0700, Julian Elischer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Julian Stacey wrote: > > > Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> appeared to write: > > > > > > > Announcing DragonFly BSD! > > > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ > > > > > > - A new kernel - OK - maybe it'll cross fertilise others, > > > but couldn't it run with an exisiting /usr/src ? Free Net or Open. > > > > Mat had his commit bit unfairly removed.. what would YOU do? > > Look, let's not go there again--the past is the past. The current > situation is that Matt is using his skills and perspective to branch > FreeBSD in an interesting direction. We all know he can do it, > so instead of repoliticizing the discussion by harping on how he > was "treated unfairly", which we know is a subject fraught with > disagreement, let's just focus on the work that Matt is doing to > further the improvement of BSD technology. OK? > > Greg > Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and SF/Fantasy. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On 2003-07-17 08:57 -0700, Julian Elischer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Julian Stacey wrote: > > Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> appeared to write: > > > > > Announcing DragonFly BSD! > > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ > > > > - A new kernel - OK - maybe it'll cross fertilise others, > > but couldn't it run with an exisiting /usr/src ? Free Net or Open. > > Mat had his commit bit unfairly removed.. what would YOU do? Look, let's not go there again--the past is the past. The current situation is that Matt is using his skills and perspective to branch FreeBSD in an interesting direction. We all know he can do it, so instead of repoliticizing the discussion by harping on how he was "treated unfairly", which we know is a subject fraught with disagreement, let's just focus on the work that Matt is doing to further the improvement of BSD technology. OK? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
I'm doing a build world of dragonfly now, this is definately not vaporware, or a troll. what they are doing could open up several new and interesting areas for bsd. While it's true that most branches of the bsd tree have occured over people issues. This one looks like it will stand on technical merit alone. Nobody could of made the changes that have been made to the kernel in a space of a month to the big tree. and multiple ways of looking at the same problem is a good thing. That defines CS and that is what the BSD'S have always been at there heart. Rob --- Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > :> anyway, not our Latin alphabet ] effort, a > dubious idea to divide > :> the number of shoulders that load sits on. > There's already another > :> cross platform ports project anyway > (Freshports?) > :> - A new distribution mechanism (whatever) ? maybe > - but again > :> if better, that technology should be adopted & > merged into other BSDs. > :> > :> http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ may be a just a > troll erection, it's > :> constructed so there's nothing real to see. A > troll site ? No > :> where to click & sample code inside browser, > you'd have to cvsup & > :> extract localy to check real code. No interest > until others confirm real. > : > :you missed the entire source tree? look again.. > :and I doubt that a troller would have redesigned > the entire kernel > :to make a troll and made it work.. if he did we > should invite him in.. > > Yes, that would be some trick, considering that > the unified diff > between my tree and -stable is over 347,000 > lines long! Sheesh, I > guess I really *do* have to get cvsweb up and > running for people > to believe it, ftp and cvsup apparently aren't > enough! > > : > :it's himm.. believe it.. > > I don't understand, do some people not believe > that I am heavy-weight > kernel programmer? I mean, sheesh, this > reminds me of my old > Commodore PET days, when I wrote a centipede > game entirely in 6502 machine > language and submitted it to cursor magazine for > publication. > They declined, I think because they didn't quite > believe that a 14 > year old kid could *do* that. It was a damn > fine game, too, the last > level featured an invisible centipede who only > turned visible for a > few seconds when you hit one of his segments. > > :> ( Julian Stacey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ) > :> The logo is useless (& a troll give away ?): > > Useless! You try staring a three inch long > DragonFly in the face for > half an hour! It was fate is what it was, that > Fred was so photogenic > because it took about 20 shots before I got him > framed and focused > properly and he basically refused to budge > despite my comings and goings, > only occassionally startling, flitting around > the yard a bit, and then > landing right smack back on the same frond he > had just taken off from. > > :> There's too many BSD's already. More complete > BSDs aren't of > :> personal or business benefit. More kernels, > tools, & experiments > :> in ports/packaging etc could be useful though, > but to be of most > :> benefit such work should be fully integratable, & > not further split > :> the available BSD workforce. > :> Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, > Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. > : > :Well if you take away his commit bit treeat him > unfairly, what other > :choice does he have? > > Well, I don't really care about that, but this > points to an interesting > dichotomy in the perception of people who use > open source and of people > who write it. I don't know about other open > source programmers but my > motivation is interest and invention. It has > nothing at all to do with > towing some imaginary line. Why should it > matter what operating system > base I choose? If Linus felt that way he would > never have started Linux. > It is a concept that non-programmers like to > banter about on forums like > slashdot but it is utterly meaningless to most > of the people that do > the actual programming. There is > responsibility, yes, but it is an > effect rather then a cause. > > History is filled with underdogs winning against > the behemoths against > all apparent odds, and turning into behemoths > themselves only to be > displaced by the next underdog when their little > clique starts believing > in its own immortality. As a programmer who > has gone through several > generations of operating environments I don't > believe in the immortality > of anything, least of all FreeBSD or Linux, or > my own code. But it > doesn't stop me from working my favorite project > on my favorite platform, > whatever that happens to be. Ultimately the > only thing that survives > history is the invention and the concept, and > memory. If people can see > that a concept works and go and implement it in >
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:> anyway, not our Latin alphabet ] effort, a dubious idea to divide :> the number of shoulders that load sits on. There's already another :> cross platform ports project anyway (Freshports?) :> - A new distribution mechanism (whatever) ? maybe - but again :> if better, that technology should be adopted & merged into other BSDs. :> :> http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ may be a just a troll erection, it's :> constructed so there's nothing real to see. A troll site ? No :> where to click & sample code inside browser, you'd have to cvsup & :> extract localy to check real code. No interest until others confirm real. : :you missed the entire source tree? look again.. :and I doubt that a troller would have redesigned the entire kernel :to make a troll and made it work.. if he did we should invite him in.. Yes, that would be some trick, considering that the unified diff between my tree and -stable is over 347,000 lines long! Sheesh, I guess I really *do* have to get cvsweb up and running for people to believe it, ftp and cvsup apparently aren't enough! : :it's himm.. believe it.. I don't understand, do some people not believe that I am heavy-weight kernel programmer? I mean, sheesh, this reminds me of my old Commodore PET days, when I wrote a centipede game entirely in 6502 machine language and submitted it to cursor magazine for publication. They declined, I think because they didn't quite believe that a 14 year old kid could *do* that. It was a damn fine game, too, the last level featured an invisible centipede who only turned visible for a few seconds when you hit one of his segments. :> ( Julian Stacey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ) :> The logo is useless (& a troll give away ?): Useless! You try staring a three inch long DragonFly in the face for half an hour! It was fate is what it was, that Fred was so photogenic because it took about 20 shots before I got him framed and focused properly and he basically refused to budge despite my comings and goings, only occassionally startling, flitting around the yard a bit, and then landing right smack back on the same frond he had just taken off from. :> There's too many BSD's already. More complete BSDs aren't of :> personal or business benefit. More kernels, tools, & experiments :> in ports/packaging etc could be useful though, but to be of most :> benefit such work should be fully integratable, & not further split :> the available BSD workforce. :> Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. : :Well if you take away his commit bit treeat him unfairly, what other :choice does he have? Well, I don't really care about that, but this points to an interesting dichotomy in the perception of people who use open source and of people who write it. I don't know about other open source programmers but my motivation is interest and invention. It has nothing at all to do with towing some imaginary line. Why should it matter what operating system base I choose? If Linus felt that way he would never have started Linux. It is a concept that non-programmers like to banter about on forums like slashdot but it is utterly meaningless to most of the people that do the actual programming. There is responsibility, yes, but it is an effect rather then a cause. History is filled with underdogs winning against the behemoths against all apparent odds, and turning into behemoths themselves only to be displaced by the next underdog when their little clique starts believing in its own immortality. As a programmer who has gone through several generations of operating environments I don't believe in the immortality of anything, least of all FreeBSD or Linux, or my own code. But it doesn't stop me from working my favorite project on my favorite platform, whatever that happens to be. Ultimately the only thing that survives history is the invention and the concept, and memory. If people can see that a concept works and go and implement it in their own favorite environment then that counts as a success and another notch on my sleave regardless of anything else. If people can make positive use from something I've done, that's a nother notch. It's amazing to me how people can belittle the work that Rik has done on the Linux VM system, for example, under the misconception that not having outright adoption means that it was somehow a failure. How absurd! That work created a competitive environment which had the direct result of several people building upon the concepts and implementating something far better then what used to be there. That's a notch in Rik's sleave, and in mine too for having been able to contribute to the discussion. It's amazing to me how many old Amiga users have emailed me in the last two days about DICE. DICE is a C
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:> Hmm, typing this command a second time I nopw see extra info: :> Registrant: :>Matthew Dillon :>41 Vicente Rd :>Berkeley, CA 94705 :>US : :I've been to Matt's house before -- its real. He does have a T-1 at :home. : :-- :-- David ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) :P.S. I offer my home address for anyone that wants to at my place. Yah. There is truth in the registration address :-). I guess that means I really have got to go in and secure my WIFI system now. Speaking of which, that alpha box is just sitting there in my machine room like a boat anchor. If you know someone that would like to have it it's available, no charge! -Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 05:14:05PM +0200, Julian Stacey wrote: > Hmm, typing this command a second time I nopw see extra info: > Registrant: >Matthew Dillon >41 Vicente Rd >Berkeley, CA 94705 >US I've been to Matt's house before -- its real. He does have a T-1 at home. -- -- David ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. I offer my home address for anyone that wants to at my place. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
From: "Julian Stacey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. Those targeted by trolls need to work extra hard to establish credibility of poster's address, to avoid suspicion of "troll at work" (phone number maybe?). Trolls of course need to work extra hard too, to also convince us. Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew Dillon, but I doubt it. Phone numbers are easily forged. If authenticity is in question, why not PGP sign it? E _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Julian Stacey wrote: > Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. Those targeted > by trolls need to work extra hard to establish credibility of > poster's address, to avoid suspicion of "troll at work" (phone > number maybe?). Trolls of course need to work extra hard too, to > also convince us. Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew > Dillon, but I doubt it. > > Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> appeared to write: > > > Announcing DragonFly BSD! > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ > > Doing a new kernel approach seems a plausible tech target, > the merits I'd leave to others. > > > and to completely rewrite the packaging and distribution system. > > Seems unliklely/over ambitious/ divisive to me, suspicion of Troll. firstly, Matt has discussed this with me in person. > > - A new kernel - OK - maybe it'll cross fertilise others, > but couldn't it run with an exisiting /usr/src ? Free Net or Open. Mat had his commit bit unfairly removed.. what would YOU do? > - A new ports / package system - OK if the need is felt: even though > FreeBSD ports/ was so popular it got adoped & looked at by other > projects, that didn't stop it changing recently (file > reduction) But couldn't it run with exisiting BSDs, presumably > FreeBSD ? The ports project is really a Sisyphus [sp? was Greek > anyway, not our Latin alphabet ] effort, a dubious idea to divide > the number of shoulders that load sits on. There's already another > cross platform ports project anyway (Freshports?) > - A new distribution mechanism (whatever) ? maybe - but again > if better, that technology should be adopted & merged into other BSDs. > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ may be a just a troll erection, it's > constructed so there's nothing real to see. A troll site ? No > where to click & sample code inside browser, you'd have to cvsup & > extract localy to check real code. No interest until others confirm real. you missed the entire source tree? look again.. and I doubt that a troller would have redesigned the entire kernel to make a troll and made it work.. if he did we should invite him in.. > > If friends who localy know / work with / meet Matthew Dillon, > announce on this list that it's really him, & that's what he's > really doing & is to be taken seriously, then it'll perhaps be worth > looking at, but then again, maybe the real Matt will return to his > desk, & announce another troll attempt. it's himm.. believe it.. > > The logo is useless (& a troll give away ?): > - Business: Yesterday I delivered an HP Network > Scanjet 5, with NT removed & FreeBSD installed ( > http://berklix.com/scanjet ) I stuck a FreeBSD `tattoo' (from > WC?) on the chassis just after the `5' of the product name (they > stick fine on plastic, though text implies for human skin (not > tried that)). IMO the Linux & BSD logos are both rather childish, > but clearly used for business as well as personal. but I wouldn't > stick the dragonflybsd slavering head on a rubbish bin. > - Last night at the Munich BSD monthly gathering ( http://berklix.org/bim/ ) > this month's convenor had brought > a Chuck daemon which stood verticaly as recognition symbol, after > shovin feet in a big (clean) ash tray. A Penguin can also be made to stand, > (low centre of gravity help) But what would one do with a slavering head ? > ... Other than Bin it ! > > First 2 sentences of main page seem a possible Linux troll give away: > DragonFly is an operating system and environment designed to be > the logical continuation of the FreeBSD-4.x OS series. These > operating systems belong in the same class as Linux in that they > are based on UNIX ideals and APIs. > > "We" > There's a lot of mention of "We" on those few pages, & no list of who the > list of "We" includes as founders. A fake site maybe ? He did this with consultation with some others.. I don't think they are 'active' but they were consulted. > > There's too many BSD's already. More complete BSDs aren't of > personal or business benefit. More kernels, tools, & experiments > in ports/packaging etc could be useful though, but to be of most > benefit such work should be fully integratable, & not further split > the available BSD workforce. Well if you take away his commit bit treeat him unfairly, what other choice does he have? > > My guess is the original post was a fake masquerade, (what some call a > troll), the web site is probably the same. (Apologies to Matt if I'm > wrong, but the real Matt hopefuly appreciates us being cautious :-) > > My Tel. +49.89.260233276 Timezone=GMT+01:00 (EG ID check :-) > > - > Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. > Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. > ___ > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > ht
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Julian Stacey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. [...] > Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew Dillon, but I doubt it. Well, I fetched the DragonFly repository, and if this is a hoax, somebody went through an awful lot of work to make it look real. http://grappa.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/cgi-bin/cvsweb/?cvsroot=dragonfly -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
I wrote > My guess is the original post was a fake masquerade, (what some call a > troll), the web site is probably the same. (Apologies to Matt if I'm > wrong, but the real Matt hopefuly appreciates us being cautious :-) whois dragonflybsd.org Created on: 14-JUL-03 Whois Server:whois.dotster.com ... www.dotster.com/help/whois 1 page didnt respond, 1 wanted a login & password ! Hmm, typing this command a second time I nopw see extra info: Registrant: Matthew Dillon 41 Vicente Rd Berkeley, CA 94705 US Registrar: DOTSTER Domain Name: DRAGONFLYBSD.ORG Created on: 14-JUL-03 Expires on: 15-JUL-05 Last Updated on: 14-JUL-03 Administrative, Technical Contact: Dillon, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] 41 Vicente Rd Berkeley, CA 94705 US 510 848 9745 Domain servers in listed order: APOLLO.BACKPLANE.COM NS.IDIOM.COM NS2.IDIOM.COM I've a feeeling I didnt get that first time. ? http://www.dnsreport.com/tools/dnsreport.ch?domain=dragonflybsd.org WARNING: You only have 1 MX record. WARNING: All of your nameservers (listed at the parent nameservers) are in the same Class C address space, which means that they are probably at the same physical location. nslookup 69.2.200.182 Name:host182.69.2.200.maximumasp.com Address: 69.2.200.182 whois backplane.com Ballistic Electronics (BACKPLANE-DOM) 41 Vicente Road Berkeley, CA 94705 US Domain Name: BACKPLANE.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: Dillon, Matt (MD631) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ballistic Electronics 891 REGAL RD BERKELEY, CA 94708-1351 US +1 510 848 9745 Record expires on 25-Dec-2003. Record created on 16-Sep-2002. Database last updated on 17-Jul-2003 10:23:59 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS.IDIOM.COM 216.240.32.66 NS2.IDIOM.COM216.240.32.74 APOLLO.BACKPLANE.COM 216.240.41.2 Maybe it's real ? Just in > From: Maxim Sobolev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > No, everything seems real - at least Matt replies to e-mails > sent to him on this topic. There is also a live nntp server > up and running @ dragonflybsd.org, I saw Matt and Terry Lambert > discussing kernel things this morning there. I doubt that somebody > will be able to impersonate both Matt and Terry. :)) Oh, good, we can concentrate on the merits of Matt's plans then, Thanks. Sorry for doubting it was you Matt. Past trolls sewed seeds of doubt! - Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Julian Stacey wrote: Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. Those targeted by trolls need to work extra hard to establish credibility of poster's address, to avoid suspicion of "troll at work" (phone number maybe?). Trolls of course need to work extra hard too, to also convince us. Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew Dillon, but I doubt it. This is the real thing. The hostname apollo.backplane.com is known to be Matt's, and www.dragflybsd.org points to what is probably the same subnet: $ host apollo.backplane.com apollo.backplane.com has address 216.240.41.2 apollo.backplane.com mail is handled (pri=10) by apollo.backplane.com $ host www.dragonflybsd.org www.dragonflybsd.org is a nickname for crater.dragonflybsd.org crater.dragonflybsd.org has address 216.240.41.25 crater.dragonflybsd.org mail is handled (pri=10) by crater.dragonflybsd.org Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
No, everything seems real - at least Matt replies to e-mails sent to him on this topic. There is also a live nntp server up and running @ dragonflybsd.org, I saw Matt and Terry Lambert discussing kernel things this morning there. I doubt that somebody will be able to impersonate both Matt and Terry. :)) -Maxim On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 02:05:38PM +0200, Julian Stacey wrote: > Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. Those targeted > by trolls need to work extra hard to establish credibility of > poster's address, to avoid suspicion of "troll at work" (phone > number maybe?). Trolls of course need to work extra hard too, to > also convince us. Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew > Dillon, but I doubt it. > > Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> appeared to write: > > > Announcing DragonFly BSD! > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ > > Doing a new kernel approach seems a plausible tech target, > the merits I'd leave to others. > > > and to completely rewrite the packaging and distribution system. > > Seems unliklely/over ambitious/ divisive to me, suspicion of Troll. > > - A new kernel - OK - maybe it'll cross fertilise others, > but couldn't it run with an exisiting /usr/src ? Free Net or Open. > - A new ports / package system - OK if the need is felt: even though > FreeBSD ports/ was so popular it got adoped & looked at by other > projects, that didn't stop it changing recently (file > reduction) But couldn't it run with exisiting BSDs, presumably > FreeBSD ? The ports project is really a Sisyphus [sp? was Greek > anyway, not our Latin alphabet ] effort, a dubious idea to divide > the number of shoulders that load sits on. There's already another > cross platform ports project anyway (Freshports?) > - A new distribution mechanism (whatever) ? maybe - but again > if better, that technology should be adopted & merged into other BSDs. > > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ may be a just a troll erection, it's > constructed so there's nothing real to see. A troll site ? No > where to click & sample code inside browser, you'd have to cvsup & > extract localy to check real code. No interest until others confirm real. > > If friends who localy know / work with / meet Matthew Dillon, > announce on this list that it's really him, & that's what he's > really doing & is to be taken seriously, then it'll perhaps be worth > looking at, but then again, maybe the real Matt will return to his > desk, & announce another troll attempt. > > The logo is useless (& a troll give away ?): > - Business: Yesterday I delivered an HP Network > Scanjet 5, with NT removed & FreeBSD installed ( > http://berklix.com/scanjet ) I stuck a FreeBSD `tattoo' (from > WC?) on the chassis just after the `5' of the product name (they > stick fine on plastic, though text implies for human skin (not > tried that)). IMO the Linux & BSD logos are both rather childish, > but clearly used for business as well as personal. but I wouldn't > stick the dragonflybsd slavering head on a rubbish bin. > - Last night at the Munich BSD monthly gathering ( http://berklix.org/bim/ ) > this month's convenor had brought > a Chuck daemon which stood verticaly as recognition symbol, after > shovin feet in a big (clean) ash tray. A Penguin can also be made to stand, > (low centre of gravity help) But what would one do with a slavering head ? > ... Other than Bin it ! > > First 2 sentences of main page seem a possible Linux troll give away: > DragonFly is an operating system and environment designed to be > the logical continuation of the FreeBSD-4.x OS series. These > operating systems belong in the same class as Linux in that they > are based on UNIX ideals and APIs. > > "We" > There's a lot of mention of "We" on those few pages, & no list of who the > list of "We" includes as founders. A fake site maybe ? > > There's too many BSD's already. More complete BSDs aren't of > personal or business benefit. More kernels, tools, & experiments > in ports/packaging etc could be useful though, but to be of most > benefit such work should be fully integratable, & not further split > the available BSD workforce. > > My guess is the original post was a fake masquerade, (what some call a > troll), the web site is probably the same. (Apologies to Matt if I'm > wrong, but the real Matt hopefuly appreciates us being cautious :-) > > My Tel. +49.89.260233276 Timezone=GMT+01:00 (EG ID check :-) > > - > Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. > Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. > ___ > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.fr
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Periodicaly someone masquerades as Matt Dilllon. Those targeted by trolls need to work extra hard to establish credibility of poster's address, to avoid suspicion of "troll at work" (phone number maybe?). Trolls of course need to work extra hard too, to also convince us. Maybe this time the poster is the real Matthew Dillon, but I doubt it. Matthew Dillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> appeared to write: > Announcing DragonFly BSD! > http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ Doing a new kernel approach seems a plausible tech target, the merits I'd leave to others. > and to completely rewrite the packaging and distribution system. Seems unliklely/over ambitious/ divisive to me, suspicion of Troll. - A new kernel - OK - maybe it'll cross fertilise others, but couldn't it run with an exisiting /usr/src ? Free Net or Open. - A new ports / package system - OK if the need is felt: even though FreeBSD ports/ was so popular it got adoped & looked at by other projects, that didn't stop it changing recently (file reduction) But couldn't it run with exisiting BSDs, presumably FreeBSD ? The ports project is really a Sisyphus [sp? was Greek anyway, not our Latin alphabet ] effort, a dubious idea to divide the number of shoulders that load sits on. There's already another cross platform ports project anyway (Freshports?) - A new distribution mechanism (whatever) ? maybe - but again if better, that technology should be adopted & merged into other BSDs. http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ may be a just a troll erection, it's constructed so there's nothing real to see. A troll site ? No where to click & sample code inside browser, you'd have to cvsup & extract localy to check real code. No interest until others confirm real. If friends who localy know / work with / meet Matthew Dillon, announce on this list that it's really him, & that's what he's really doing & is to be taken seriously, then it'll perhaps be worth looking at, but then again, maybe the real Matt will return to his desk, & announce another troll attempt. The logo is useless (& a troll give away ?): - Business: Yesterday I delivered an HP Network Scanjet 5, with NT removed & FreeBSD installed ( http://berklix.com/scanjet ) I stuck a FreeBSD `tattoo' (from WC?) on the chassis just after the `5' of the product name (they stick fine on plastic, though text implies for human skin (not tried that)). IMO the Linux & BSD logos are both rather childish, but clearly used for business as well as personal. but I wouldn't stick the dragonflybsd slavering head on a rubbish bin. - Last night at the Munich BSD monthly gathering ( http://berklix.org/bim/ ) this month's convenor had brought a Chuck daemon which stood verticaly as recognition symbol, after shovin feet in a big (clean) ash tray. A Penguin can also be made to stand, (low centre of gravity help) But what would one do with a slavering head ? ... Other than Bin it ! First 2 sentences of main page seem a possible Linux troll give away: DragonFly is an operating system and environment designed to be the logical continuation of the FreeBSD-4.x OS series. These operating systems belong in the same class as Linux in that they are based on UNIX ideals and APIs. "We" There's a lot of mention of "We" on those few pages, & no list of who the list of "We" includes as founders. A fake site maybe ? There's too many BSD's already. More complete BSDs aren't of personal or business benefit. More kernels, tools, & experiments in ports/packaging etc could be useful though, but to be of most benefit such work should be fully integratable, & not further split the available BSD workforce. My guess is the original post was a fake masquerade, (what some call a troll), the web site is probably the same. (Apologies to Matt if I'm wrong, but the real Matt hopefuly appreciates us being cautious :-) My Tel. +49.89.260233276 Timezone=GMT+01:00 (EG ID check :-) - Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
:> :> I stupidly misspelled 'announcing' in the subject line, : :Well, at least you didn't misspell your name... :-) : :> but it's very real. Check the site out: :> :> http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ : :The site looks interesting. All the kernel-level stuff is :pretty much over my head, but I will be interested in the :package-level ideas (once work starts on that part). : :-- :Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have the beginnings of an idea for how to do the packaging stuff properly... and how to automated it so one gets the dependancies correct. To realize the idea I will have to get to the point where a VFS layer can run in userland. Then it becomes trivial to build 'filtering VFS layers' that run in userland (i.e. don't take up kernel resources) which can be used to figure out *exactly* what a package references in the system and *exactly* what it effects. Once one is able to do that the dependancy and conflict information can not only be completely automated, but one can theoretically (and automatically) create 'environments' for each package to run in which resolve the conflicts (i.e. makes sure that the exact version of third party shared libraries and so forth used by a package are the ones that package sees even if multiple versions would normally install over each other). I'm guessing 6 months until the project gets to that point, oweing to the complexity of fixing VFS and, in particular, VFS_LOOKUP. But then, watch out! Infinite application... not only to the packaging system, but to the concept of how jails should work as well, and many other things. -Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
At 1:58 PM -0700 7/16/03, Matthew Dillon wrote: : :Is it real or another troll? : :-Maxim I stupidly misspelled 'announcing' in the subject line, Well, at least you didn't misspell your name... :-) but it's very real. Check the site out: http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ The site looks interesting. All the kernel-level stuff is pretty much over my head, but I will be interested in the package-level ideas (once work starts on that part). -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
: :Is it real or another troll? : :-Maxim I stupidly misspelled 'announcing' in the subject line, but it's very real. Check the site out: http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ It's basically the reason why I've been so quiet lately. I've been working 12 hours a day on proving the model out. -Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Annoucning DragonFly BSD!
Announcing DragonFly BSD! http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ Hello everyone! For the last few months I have been investigating and then working on a new approach to the BSD kernel. This has snowballed into a far more ambitious project which is now ready for wider participation. It is the intent of this project to take over development of the 4.x tree, to move kernel development along an entirely new path towards SMP, and to completely rewrite the packaging and distribution system. We eventually intend to backport many FreeBSD-5 features into the new tree, but that is not where the initial focus will be. The preliminary 'proving' work I have done is now available on the new DragonFly site. You can access it through cvsup or browse it through ftp. This proving work involved implementing much of the earlier UP->SMP converstion work that was done when 5.x first branched, but under an entirely new mutex-free light weight kernel threading infrastructure. It includes the LWKT system, interrupt threads, and pure threads for system processes amoung other things. For obvious reasons the codebase will only run on i386 for now, and ports to other platforms will not happen until the MD infrastructure is cleaned up and finalized. I considered starting with a 5.x base but it is simply too heavily mutexed, it was actually faster to start with 4.x and move forward rather then to start with 5.x and move backwards. I have both UP and SMP builds working in the current codebase. I believe it proves out the core concepts quite nicely and there is much more work coming down the pipeline. The site is: http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ Hopefully my T1 can handle the cvsup load. Eventually I'll colocate some boxes to deal with that issue. For the next few months the project is going to concentrate on low level kernel development. There are still a number of big ticket items that have to be accomplished, primarily in converting the I/O path to using VM Object/range lists, before work can branch out into other areas. I expect the project to start fairly slowly but then for momentum to build. Anyone interested in working on or discussing the project is welcome! I have created a mailing list server and newsgroup forums and I am working on web-accessibility to same for passive listeners. I will be posting periodic updates to freebsd-hackers as well. Again, the site is below. It contains a great deal of documentation and other information. I even have a mascot! And, hopefully, it will all work from outside my LAN :-) http://www.dragonflybsd.org/ -Matt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
