Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Martin Sugioarto
Am Sun, 24 Jul 2011 20:08:02 -0500
schrieb Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org:

 It's a change from before, but a normalization with respect to most 
 Linux distributions, since we are now using the same dialog as, e.g., 
 Debian and Ubuntu.
 -Nathan

Hi,

yes. And I want to thank you (and everyone) for this change in
libdialog.

This was something I immediately liked especially while configuring
ports. It saves many key presses and is perfectly logical and provides
more usability.

I've done a CURRENT installation, too. And it looks like you did a good
job. I've liked what I've seen so far.

I have one request though:

Please provide more recent snapshots for more platforms. It's very
difficult to find an acceptable one. It would be nice when you get some
early feedback from users instead of making a typical dot-zero release
that needs to be fixed and no one will be able to accept.

--
Martin


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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Bruce Cran

On 25/07/2011 06:01, Freddie Cash wrote:
Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to 
be a Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing 
well. It made a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to 
configure a system. Usually the first time someone mentions they use 
it for post-install configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing 
that! An os installer should do just that: install the os and nothing 
else. 


I tend to disagree with this. For people unfamiliar with FreeBSD using 
it as a systems administration tool can be really useful, at least until 
they understand where all the various configuration files are and how 
they work.  Having recently switched to opensuse from Ubuntu I know I 
find the YaST tool incredibly useful, and probably wouldn't have 
continued using SuSE if it hadn't been there. Its installer mode is one 
of the better installers I've come across, and lets you fine-tune the 
configuration.


--
Bruce Cran
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Andriy Gapon
on 25/07/2011 07:47 Warren Block said the following:
 2.  The options don't always really apply.  Create when ad0 is highlighted 
 leads
 the user to think they can create a new device, like ad1.  But it will really
 create another partition.  Delete on ad0 deletes all the partitions, not ad0. 
 No warning, either.

Are you sure about this one?
I have never expected that any installer would be able to create or delete
hardware (a hard disk) in my computer.

-- 
Andriy Gapon
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Claude Buisson

On 07/25/2011 02:56, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 19:11, Claude Buisson wrote:

On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
information on the flow of the installation.

Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
-Nathan


Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May
snapshot
(FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:


Thank you for testing!



My intent was not to test the installer, but I needed to install a recent
9.0-CURRENT with gpt on a brand new hardware


- the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not
in the
US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live
system. And
the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation
procedure.


Which is why this is the very first screen of the installer?



If my memory is good, it was in the first screen of the install dialog, not
before the choice of installation / live system


- the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old
sysinstall
dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g.
to have a
proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live
system, which is
a regression.


The alignment is done to match the disk stripe size automatically, and
the partition editor has many, many more features than the sysinstall
one. Is there something in particular you wanted?



I don't use any stripe (only plain UFS), and the many, many features where
too well hidden for my old brain.


- extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the
hard way
that I needed to execute a newfs.


This is what the directions at the top of the partitioning shell say.



As I not clearly understood these directions, I skipped to the live system for
doing the gpart work.


- I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual
configuration
steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the
end I get
back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just
before...


The network configuration also allows IPv6 in newer versions -- that
snapshot is 2 months out of date. The final screen says at the top that
is there to modify earlier choices. Can you suggest a clearer wording?



Clear wording is certainly a plus.


- booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared,
the
keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on


This is inexplicable. This has worked perfectly for everyone else --
it's possible you made a mistake in the partitioning, but I can't
imagine how it would have caused this. Are you able to reproduce the
problem?



My system is now running, and I don't have any other system to play with.


- during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence
of a number
of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.


The actual 9.0 CDs will not have WITNESS enabled. It would be nice if
the LORs in question were actually fixed, however.



A good installer cannot suppose that there will not be any kernel message
during its use, some of them will be benign.

Furthermore the installer (and the whole make release process) has not for sole
use the installation (and creation) of official releases. I started building my
own releases at 2.2.X time..


- the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small,
leading to
a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.


The live system is designed more as a fixit medium. What were you trying
to do with it?



I first copied the dmesg to be able to retrieve it on another system (was
thinking that /var was a memory file system), then I saw the system full at
different steps of the install.



Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on
the install
media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do
its work
without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not
connected,
and networks without 

Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Warren Block

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, Andriy Gapon wrote:


on 25/07/2011 07:47 Warren Block said the following:

2.  The options don't always really apply.  Create when ad0 is highlighted leads
the user to think they can create a new device, like ad1.  But it will really
create another partition.  Delete on ad0 deletes all the partitions, not ad0.
No warning, either.


Are you sure about this one?
I have never expected that any installer would be able to create or delete
hardware (a hard disk) in my computer.


Device as in entry in /dev.

It's a little blurrier than that.  With no partitioning scheme, Create 
makes one, having the user select the type.  After that, it creates new 
partitions.


Having messed with this editor more, I can make it work and see the 
intent of the user interface.  I wish I could suggest a good way to make 
it more clear, but can't quite get my brain around it right now.

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread eculp

Quoting Warren Block wbl...@wonkity.com:


On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, Andriy Gapon wrote:


on 25/07/2011 07:47 Warren Block said the following:
2.  The options don't always really apply.  Create when ad0 is  
highlighted leads
the user to think they can create a new device, like ad1.  But it  
will really
create another partition.  Delete on ad0 deletes all the  
partitions, not ad0.

No warning, either.


Are you sure about this one?
I have never expected that any installer would be able to create or delete
hardware (a hard disk) in my computer.


Device as in entry in /dev.

It's a little blurrier than that.  With no partitioning scheme,  
Create makes one, having the user select the type.  After that, it  
creates new partitions.


Having messed with this editor more, I can make it work and see the  
intent of the user interface.  I wish I could suggest a good way to  
make it more clear, but can't quite get my brain around it right now.


That makes two of us right now.  I gave up, accepted the automatic  
partition and everything else went as expected, I suppose.  The disk  
results are:


# df
Filesystem  1K-blocksUsed Avail Capacity  Mounted on
/dev/ada0p2 941441086 2150880 863974920 0%/
devfs   1   1 0   100%/dev

In my world from the beginning of commercial unix, I have never had a  
one partition disk.  I'm not sure if it is that bad with today's,  
controllers, drives, drivers, etc.  I hope someone chimes in with a I  
see no major problems with gpt.


My major problem was editing the automatic swap that was set at 4G and  
the menu would not let me change the 4G.  The experienced option would  
not accept a blank value as swap even though there was message that  
said it would.


I feel like a real idiot and am beginning to believe that it might be true.
The rest of the install was brain dead.  It was possibly a bit simpler  
than the previous.  Less decisions ;)


I had the idea the following were available in the new installer.
  1.  Raid configuration
  2.  ZFS
  3.  Regular everyday simple disk partitioning as before.

I wasn't able to find any functional option except the one mentioned above.

Now, I have to accept this single partition or upgrade sources to  
date, build a release and reinstall but I don't know if the problem  
has been fixed.  I'll probably give it a try.  It isn't that much of a  
deal.


Thanks,
ed

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Ron McDowell

Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 18:03, Ron McDowell wrote:

Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:
I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not 
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 
2.0 and never really had a problem with understanding the 
installation program.  There is always a first time, I guess.


ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember 
installer screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)


I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe 
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our 
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to 
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?


Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of 
information on the flow of the installation.


Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you 
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really 
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very 
much like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.

-Nathan



I'll have to agree with the original poster.  I have no problem with 
the look and feel of the new installer, but when functionality that 
WAS there is now gone, that's a problem.  My two, make that three, 
biggest gripes are:


1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting 
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well, 
unacceptable.


This is why almost all screens have a cancel button. You can also 
restart the installer by control-C at any time without rebooting. 
Providing an actual back button is quite tricky and not necessarily 
always well defined in behavior, since the installed system will then 
be in an inconsistent state at which previous steps cannot necessarily 
be repeated. For those steps where that is not true, they can be 
reentered from the menu at the end in case of fat-fingering.


22 screens require user input in a basic install [on my box, taking the 
default choices]. Only 7 have a 'cancel' button, which puts you back one 
screen, most likely to a screen you can't escape from.  ctl-c to restart 
is about a half-step up from rebooting.  How about a note at the start 
stating that you will be able to make changes later before committing to 
the install?




2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or few-task 
servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. You can install just a kernel and 
the base system by deselecting the ports tree, games, and docs when 
you select which system components to install.


I see now that this is outside of the install program's scope...in 9.0 
the number of distributions has been shrunk, so the install program has 
to work with what's available to it.




3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be 
used on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user 
to changing a nameserver and more.




This is deliberate. This particular feature of sysinstall made it 
almost unmaintainable, especially as those features slowly bitrotted. 
We have very good system configuration utilities already


vi-ing /etc/resolv.conf is a configuration utility?

-- there is no need to duplicate them in the installer, especially 
when it makes maintaining and improving that installer more difficult.


Fire up sysinstall on a system.  Hit 'C'.  Where else can a beginner go 
to find all this good stuff in one spot?  I agree it doesn't need to be 
part of the install program, but it does need to be part of the OS.



-Nathan


One new thing I noticed is the new install does not eject the CD at the 
end before rebooting.  I've seen systems where 'eject' didn't do 
anything...but it never caused a problem either.  Please consider adding 
that.



--
Ron McDowell
San Antonio TX




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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Adam Vande More
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:46 AM, eculp ec...@encontacto.net wrote:

 That makes two of us right now.  I gave up, accepted the automatic
 partition and everything else went as expected, I suppose.  The disk results
 are:

 # df
 Filesystem  1K-blocksUsed Avail Capacity  Mounted on
 /dev/ada0p2 941441086 2150880 863974920 0%/
 devfs   1   1 0   100%/dev

 In my world from the beginning of commercial unix, I have never had a one
 partition disk.  I'm not sure if it is that bad with today's, controllers,
 drives, drivers, etc.  I hope someone chimes in with a I see no major
 problems with gpt.

 My major problem was editing the automatic swap that was set at 4G and the
 menu would not let me change the 4G.  The experienced option would not
 accept a blank value as swap even though there was message that said it
 would.

 I feel like a real idiot and am beginning to believe that it might be true.
 The rest of the install was brain dead.  It was possibly a bit simpler than
 the previous.  Less decisions ;)

 I had the idea the following were available in the new installer.
  1.  Raid configuration
  2.  ZFS
  3.  Regular everyday simple disk partitioning as before.

 I wasn't able to find any functional option except the one mentioned above.

 Now, I have to accept this single partition or upgrade sources to date,
 build a release and reinstall but I don't know if the problem has been
 fixed.  I'll probably give it a try.  It isn't that much of a deal.


Hopefully I add something of value to this thread, but as a workaround you
can use a PCBSD image and installer to install/partion plain vanilla FreeBSD
with the options you mentioned earlier in a graphical enviroment.



-- 
Adam Vande More
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread eculp

Quoting Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com:


On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:46 AM, eculp ec...@encontacto.net wrote:


That makes two of us right now.  I gave up, accepted the automatic
partition and everything else went as expected, I suppose.  The disk results
are:

# df
Filesystem  1K-blocksUsed Avail Capacity  Mounted on
/dev/ada0p2 941441086 2150880 863974920 0%/
devfs   1   1 0   100%/dev

In my world from the beginning of commercial unix, I have never had a one
partition disk.  I'm not sure if it is that bad with today's, controllers,
drives, drivers, etc.  I hope someone chimes in with a I see no major
problems with gpt.

My major problem was editing the automatic swap that was set at 4G and the
menu would not let me change the 4G.  The experienced option would not
accept a blank value as swap even though there was message that said it
would.

I feel like a real idiot and am beginning to believe that it might be true.
The rest of the install was brain dead.  It was possibly a bit simpler than
the previous.  Less decisions ;)

I had the idea the following were available in the new installer.
 1.  Raid configuration
 2.  ZFS
 3.  Regular everyday simple disk partitioning as before.

I wasn't able to find any functional option except the one mentioned above.

Now, I have to accept this single partition or upgrade sources to date,
build a release and reinstall but I don't know if the problem has been
fixed.  I'll probably give it a try.  It isn't that much of a deal.



Hopefully I add something of value to this thread, but as a workaround you
can use a PCBSD image and installer to install/partion plain vanilla FreeBSD
with the options you mentioned earlier in a graphical enviroment.


Thanks Adam,

I suppose that I could just pull it into this machine and execute it  
as if it were sysinstall and reconfigure from the same box without  
having to update, make release, etc.


I'm going to give that a try.

Have a great day.

ed


--
Adam Vande More



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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Freddie Cash
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote:

 On 25/07/2011 06:01, Freddie Cash wrote:

 Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to be a
 Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing well. It made
 a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to configure a system.
 Usually the first time someone mentions they use it for post-install
 configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing that! An os installer
 should do just that: install the os and nothing else.


 I tend to disagree with this. For people unfamiliar with FreeBSD using it
 as a systems administration tool can be really useful, at least until they
 understand where all the various configuration files are and how they work.
  Having recently switched to opensuse from Ubuntu I know I find the YaST
 tool incredibly useful, and probably wouldn't have continued using SuSE if
 it hadn't been there. Its installer mode is one of the better installers
 I've come across, and lets you fine-tune the configuration.


The difference is that YaST was designed from the get-go to be both a system
management tool and a software installation tool and a system installation
tool.  Sysinstall was not, and sysinstall used as a post-install management
tool the past couple of years has caused more issues for newbies than it's
solved.

If nothing else happened to sysinstall but all the post-install crud was
removed from it, it would be improved a thousand-fold.

Since no one has stepped up to fix the issues with the post-install
management facets of sysinstall, it's only natural to remove those bits.

And, since no one wants to create a new TUI management tool, there's no
reason to burden the bsdinstall devs with it.

Let's make an installation tool.  Later, we can worry about a TUI management
tool, if it's really needed.
-- 
Freddie Cash
fjwc...@gmail.com
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Vadim Goncharov
Hi Freddie Cash! 

On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:01:44 -0700; Freddie Cash wrote about 'Re: Trying to 
install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange 
installer.':

 3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be used
 on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user to changing
 a nameserver and more.

 Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to be a
 Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing well. It made
 a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to configure a system.
 Usually the first time someone mentions they use it for post-install
 configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing that!

 An os installer should do just that: install the os and nothing else.

No. That's wrong. An installer should make a usable system. While using
sysinstall for configuration multiple times made a mess, it is still needed
to make configuration the _first time_ - and it really did, without any mess.
You've got a working keyboard, TTY, network, users/passwords, etc. - before
reboot. This is something which must be intuitive for a new user, even if
it is used only one time in the system's life (at the installation). Cutting
it - is a regression.

-- 
WBR, Vadim Goncharov. ICQ#166852181   mailto:vadim_nucli...@mail.ru
[Moderator of RU.ANTI-ECOLOGY][FreeBSD][http://antigreen.org][LJ:/nuclight]

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Vadim Goncharov
Hi Freddie Cash! 

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:36:59 -0700; Freddie Cash wrote about 'Re: Trying to 
install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange 
installer.':

 Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to be a
 Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing well. It made
 a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to configure a system.
 Usually the first time someone mentions they use it for post-install
 configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing that! An os installer
 should do just that: install the os and nothing else.


 I tend to disagree with this. For people unfamiliar with FreeBSD using it
 as a systems administration tool can be really useful, at least until they
 understand where all the various configuration files are and how they work.
  Having recently switched to opensuse from Ubuntu I know I find the YaST
 tool incredibly useful, and probably wouldn't have continued using SuSE if
 it hadn't been there. Its installer mode is one of the better installers
 I've come across, and lets you fine-tune the configuration.


 The difference is that YaST was designed from the get-go to be both a system
 management tool and a software installation tool and a system installation
 tool.  Sysinstall was not, and sysinstall used as a post-install management
 tool the past couple of years has caused more issues for newbies than it's
 solved.

 If nothing else happened to sysinstall but all the post-install crud was
 removed from it, it would be improved a thousand-fold.

 Since no one has stepped up to fix the issues with the post-install
 management facets of sysinstall, it's only natural to remove those bits.

The bad tool is better than absence of the tool. The sysinstall could at least
something similar to YaST. The primary purpose is people unfamiliar with
FreeBSD, of course. And for experiences - even YaST sucks in many aspects.

 And, since no one wants to create a new TUI management tool, there's no
 reason to burden the bsdinstall devs with it.

Sure, no reason to burden with creation, but already existing couldbe adapted
a little. E.g. disk partitioning was cutted to sade from sysinstall, the same
could be done with parts of sysinstall, until something better is delivered.

 Let's make an installation tool.  Later, we can worry about a TUI management
 tool, if it's really needed.

The point is not a full-blown TUI tool like YaST but rather a regress in
comparison with sysinstall. A something minimal must be present, not worse
in features than something already existed. When later a userbase of FreeBSD
will shrink due to installer issues, it will be much harder to regain it than
to prevent it today.

-- 
WBR, Vadim Goncharov. ICQ#166852181   mailto:vadim_nucli...@mail.ru
[Moderator of RU.ANTI-ECOLOGY][FreeBSD][http://antigreen.org][LJ:/nuclight]

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Nathan Whitehorn

On 07/25/11 18:12, Vadim Goncharov wrote:

Hi Freddie Cash!

On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:01:44 -0700; Freddie Cash wrote about 'Re: Trying to 
install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange 
installer.':


3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be used

on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user to changing
a nameserver and more.
Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to be a
Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing well. It made
a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to configure a system.
Usually the first time someone mentions they use it for post-install
configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing that!
An os installer should do just that: install the os and nothing else.

No. That's wrong. An installer should make a usable system. While using
sysinstall for configuration multiple times made a mess, it is still needed
to make configuration the _first time_ - and it really did, without any mess.
You've got a working keyboard, TTY, network, users/passwords, etc. - before
reboot. This is something which must be intuitive for a new user, even if
it is used only one time in the system's life (at the installation). Cutting
it - is a regression.



That all works perfectly fine. The issue is whether it is useful for 
post-install configuration, which is something different entirely.

-Nathan
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-25 Thread Scott Long

On Jul 25, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Freddie Cash wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote:
 
 On 25/07/2011 06:01, Freddie Cash wrote:
 
 Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to be a
 Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing well. It made
 a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to configure a system.
 Usually the first time someone mentions they use it for post-install
 configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing that! An os installer
 should do just that: install the os and nothing else.
 
 
 I tend to disagree with this. For people unfamiliar with FreeBSD using it
 as a systems administration tool can be really useful, at least until they
 understand where all the various configuration files are and how they work.
 Having recently switched to opensuse from Ubuntu I know I find the YaST
 tool incredibly useful, and probably wouldn't have continued using SuSE if
 it hadn't been there. Its installer mode is one of the better installers
 I've come across, and lets you fine-tune the configuration.
 
 
 The difference is that YaST was designed from the get-go to be both a system
 management tool and a software installation tool and a system installation
 tool.  Sysinstall was not, and sysinstall used as a post-install management
 tool the past couple of years has caused more issues for newbies than it's
 solved.

Um, no.  Though sysinstall started life as a stop-gap until the real 
installer was written (which never happened), it quickly switched gears and 
strived to be both an installer and a configuration tool.  It was designed to 
do both, and there are volumes of emails from the last... what... 15-18 
years?... that will attest to this.  The design flaw of sysinstall was that it 
didn't follow the model-view-controller design pattern, so over time it became 
harder and harder to maintain it, and it essentially rotted as the system 
evolved around it, despite many valiant efforts by many tireless developers.  
YaST did a much better job of following the MVC pattern, and it shows 10 years 
later.

Scott

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Nathan Whitehorn

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:
I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not 
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0 
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation 
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.


ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer 
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)


I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe 
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our 
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to 
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?


Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of 
information on the flow of the installation.


Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you 
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really 
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much 
like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.

-Nathan
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread eculp

Quoting Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org:


On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:
I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not  
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at  
2.0 and never really had a problem with understanding the  
installation program.  There is always a first time, I guess.


ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember  
installer screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)


I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe  
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our  
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to  
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?


Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of  
information on the flow of the installation.


Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you  
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really  
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very  
much like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.

-Nathan


I do not get a menu that I can understand or relate to any of the  
installations that I have done previously.  I will give it another try  
and try to explain what I don't understand.


Thanks,

ed

P.S. Is their no documentation on what to expect?

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Ron McDowell

Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:
I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not 
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0 
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation 
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.


ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer 
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)


I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe 
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our 
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to 
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?


Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of 
information on the flow of the installation.


Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you 
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really 
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very 
much like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.

-Nathan



I'll have to agree with the original poster.  I have no problem with the 
look and feel of the new installer, but when functionality that WAS 
there is now gone, that's a problem.  My two, make that three, biggest 
gripes are:


1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting 
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well, 
unacceptable.
2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or few-task 
servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.
3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be 
used on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user to 
changing a nameserver and more.


--
Ron McDowell
San Antonio TX



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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Claude Buisson

On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
information on the flow of the installation.

Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
-Nathan


Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May snapshot
(FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:

- the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not in the
US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live system. And
the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation procedure.

- the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old sysinstall
dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g. to have a
proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live system, which is
a regression.

- extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the hard way
that I needed to execute a newfs.

- I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual configuration
steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the end I get
back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just before...

- booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared, the
keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on

- during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence of a number
of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.

- the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small, leading to
a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.

So the sole value added of the installer was the extraction of the tarballs..

It seems that (on a memory stick which is writable) that every aborted attempt
to do a configuration step leaves a trace in some files used by the installer,
which is able to show it (e.g. the hostname) at the following attempts, but
without garantee that it will effectively be used.

(On the other hand, the advantage of the memory stick is that the system on it
can be configured at will)

Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on the install
media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do its work
without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not connected,
and networks without any communication with the Internet.

Claude Buisson
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Adrian Chadd
.. wait, the install-off-USB doesn't default to a read-only boot?



Adrian

On 25 July 2011 08:11, Claude Buisson clbuis...@orange.fr wrote:
 On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

 On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

 I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
 payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
 and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
 program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

 ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

 When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
 screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

 I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
 something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
 employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
 have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

 Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
 information on the flow of the installation.

 Thanks,

 Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
 would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
 helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
 like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
 -Nathan

 Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May snapshot
 (FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:

 - the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not in
 the
 US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live system.
 And
 the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation
 procedure.

 - the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old
 sysinstall
 dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g. to have
 a
 proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live system,
 which is
 a regression.

 - extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the hard
 way
 that I needed to execute a newfs.

 - I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual configuration
 steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the end I
 get
 back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just
 before...

 - booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared, the
 keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on

 - during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence of a
 number
 of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.

 - the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small,
 leading to
 a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.

 So the sole value added of the installer was the extraction of the
 tarballs..

 It seems that (on a memory stick which is writable) that every aborted
 attempt
 to do a configuration step leaves a trace in some files used by the
 installer,
 which is able to show it (e.g. the hostname) at the following attempts, but
 without garantee that it will effectively be used.

 (On the other hand, the advantage of the memory stick is that the system on
 it
 can be configured at will)

 Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on the
 install
 media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do its
 work
 without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not
 connected,
 and networks without any communication with the Internet.

 Claude Buisson
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Nathan Whitehorn

On 07/24/11 19:11, Claude Buisson wrote:

On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
information on the flow of the installation.

Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
-Nathan


Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May 
snapshot

(FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:


Thank you for testing!

- the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not 
in the
US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live 
system. And
the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation 
procedure.


Which is why this is the very first screen of the installer?

- the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old 
sysinstall
dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g. 
to have a
proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live 
system, which is

a regression.


The alignment is done to match the disk stripe size automatically, and 
the partition editor has many, many more features than the sysinstall 
one. Is there something in particular you wanted?


- extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the 
hard way

that I needed to execute a newfs.


This is what the directions at the top of the partitioning shell say.

- I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual 
configuration
steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the 
end I get
back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just 
before...


The network configuration also allows IPv6 in newer versions -- that 
snapshot is 2 months out of date. The final screen says at the top that 
is there to modify earlier choices. Can you suggest a clearer wording?


- booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared, 
the

keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on


This is inexplicable. This has worked perfectly for everyone else -- 
it's possible you made a mistake in the partitioning, but I can't 
imagine how it would have caused this. Are you able to reproduce the 
problem?


- during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence 
of a number

of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.


The actual 9.0 CDs will not have WITNESS enabled. It would be nice if 
the LORs in question were actually fixed, however.


- the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small, 
leading to

a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.


The live system is designed more as a fixit medium. What were you trying 
to do with it?




Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on 
the install
media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do 
its work
without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not 
connected,

and networks without any communication with the Internet.


Which is why it behaves in exactly the way you suggest.
-Nathan
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Nathan Whitehorn
It does not. I had tried to match the behavior of the 8.x memsticks. 
It's an easy change in /usr/src/release/ARCH/make-memstick.sh to change 
it, however.

-Nathan

On 07/24/11 19:54, Adrian Chadd wrote:

.. wait, the install-off-USB doesn't default to a read-only boot?



Adrian

On 25 July 2011 08:11, Claude Buissonclbuis...@orange.fr  wrote:

On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
information on the flow of the installation.

Thanks,

Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
-Nathan

Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May snapshot
(FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:

- the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not in
the
US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live system.
And
the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation
procedure.

- the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old
sysinstall
dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g. to have
a
proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live system,
which is
a regression.

- extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the hard
way
that I needed to execute a newfs.

- I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual configuration
steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the end I
get
back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just
before...

- booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared, the
keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on

- during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence of a
number
of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.

- the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small,
leading to
a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.

So the sole value added of the installer was the extraction of the
tarballs..

It seems that (on a memory stick which is writable) that every aborted
attempt
to do a configuration step leaves a trace in some files used by the
installer,
which is able to show it (e.g. the hostname) at the following attempts, but
without garantee that it will effectively be used.

(On the other hand, the advantage of the memory stick is that the system on
it
can be configured at will)

Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on the
install
media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do its
work
without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not
connected,
and networks without any communication with the Internet.

Claude Buisson
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Adrian Chadd
Something tells me that's a disaster waiting to happen. Eg, if
something happens, and the installer disk gets corrupted, people may
blame freebsd for being unstable, email questions to freebsd-* mailing
lists asking why X doesn't work (only for it to work when the image is
written out again), etc, etc.

If it's going to double as a live image versus an installer than maybe
have a boot option that mounts the root filesystem read-write
(complete with some fingerprint that says that the image has been
booted read-write at least once?)



Adrian

On 25 July 2011 08:57, Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org wrote:
 It does not. I had tried to match the behavior of the 8.x memsticks. It's an
 easy change in /usr/src/release/ARCH/make-memstick.sh to change it, however.
 -Nathan

 On 07/24/11 19:54, Adrian Chadd wrote:

 .. wait, the install-off-USB doesn't default to a read-only boot?



 Adrian

 On 25 July 2011 08:11, Claude Buissonclbuis...@orange.fr  wrote:

 On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

 On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

 I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
 payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
 and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
 program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

 ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

 When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
 screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

 I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
 something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
 employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
 have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

 Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
 information on the flow of the installation.

 Thanks,

 Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
 would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
 helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
 like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
 -Nathan

 Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May
 snapshot
 (FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:

 - the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not in
 the
 US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live
 system.
 And
 the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation
 procedure.

 - the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old
 sysinstall
 dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g. to
 have
 a
 proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live system,
 which is
 a regression.

 - extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the hard
 way
 that I needed to execute a newfs.

 - I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual
 configuration
 steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the end I
 get
 back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just
 before...

 - booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared,
 the
 keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on

 - during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence of a
 number
 of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.

 - the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small,
 leading to
 a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.

 So the sole value added of the installer was the extraction of the
 tarballs..

 It seems that (on a memory stick which is writable) that every aborted
 attempt
 to do a configuration step leaves a trace in some files used by the
 installer,
 which is able to show it (e.g. the hostname) at the following attempts,
 but
 without garantee that it will effectively be used.

 (On the other hand, the advantage of the memory stick is that the system
 on
 it
 can be configured at will)

 Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on the
 install
 media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do its
 work
 without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not
 connected,
 and networks without any communication with the Internet.

 Claude Buisson
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Bruce Cran

On 25/07/2011 00:03, Ron McDowell wrote:
1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting 
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well, 
unacceptable.
2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or few-task 
servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.
3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be 
used on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user 
to changing a nameserver and more.


Another potential problem is that the new version of libdialog that the 
new installer uses changes the way navigation is done: on Linux and in 
the previous version on FreeBSD it's possible to press Tab to change 
focus to the buttons and different UI elements. That doesn't work any more.


--
Bruce Cran

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Nathan Whitehorn

On 07/24/11 18:03, Ron McDowell wrote:

Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:
I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not 
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 
2.0 and never really had a problem with understanding the 
installation program.  There is always a first time, I guess.


ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer 
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)


I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe 
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our 
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to 
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?


Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of 
information on the flow of the installation.


Thanks,


Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you 
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really 
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very 
much like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.

-Nathan



I'll have to agree with the original poster.  I have no problem with 
the look and feel of the new installer, but when functionality that 
WAS there is now gone, that's a problem.  My two, make that three, 
biggest gripes are:


1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting 
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well, 
unacceptable.


This is why almost all screens have a cancel button. You can also 
restart the installer by control-C at any time without rebooting. 
Providing an actual back button is quite tricky and not necessarily 
always well defined in behavior, since the installed system will then be 
in an inconsistent state at which previous steps cannot necessarily be 
repeated. For those steps where that is not true, they can be reentered 
from the menu at the end in case of fat-fingering.


2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or few-task 
servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. You can install just a kernel and 
the base system by deselecting the ports tree, games, and docs when you 
select which system components to install.


3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be 
used on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user 
to changing a nameserver and more.




This is deliberate. This particular feature of sysinstall made it almost 
unmaintainable, especially as those features slowly bitrotted. We have 
very good system configuration utilities already -- there is no need to 
duplicate them in the installer, especially when it makes maintaining 
and improving that installer more difficult.

-Nathan

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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Nathan Whitehorn

Yes, I agree. I'll ask re@ to change it.
-Nathan

On 07/24/11 20:02, Adrian Chadd wrote:

Something tells me that's a disaster waiting to happen. Eg, if
something happens, and the installer disk gets corrupted, people may
blame freebsd for being unstable, email questions to freebsd-* mailing
lists asking why X doesn't work (only for it to work when the image is
written out again), etc, etc.

If it's going to double as a live image versus an installer than maybe
have a boot option that mounts the root filesystem read-write
(complete with some fingerprint that says that the image has been
booted read-write at least once?)



Adrian

On 25 July 2011 08:57, Nathan Whitehornnwhiteh...@freebsd.org  wrote:

It does not. I had tried to match the behavior of the 8.x memsticks. It's an
easy change in /usr/src/release/ARCH/make-memstick.sh to change it, however.
-Nathan

On 07/24/11 19:54, Adrian Chadd wrote:

.. wait, the install-off-USB doesn't default to a read-only boot?



Adrian

On 25 July 2011 08:11, Claude Buissonclbuis...@orange.frwrote:

On 07/24/2011 23:33, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 16:29, eculp wrote:

I have been hearing about a new installer but I obviously have not
payed enough attention, I am afraid. I started running freebsd at 2.0
and never really had a problem with understanding the installation
program.  There is always a first time, I guess.

ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/201105/

When booting I seem to get a screen that makes me remember installer
screens of the 1980s.  (They were not exactly intuitive.)

I somehow got the idea that the new installer was graphic.  Maybe
something like PCBsd that is not bad at all.  I use it on all our
employees computers.  Actually, after seeing this, I would love to
have the old installer back.  Is their an option for that?

Does this new ASCII installer have a how to with a bit of
information on the flow of the installation.

Thanks,

Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you
would prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really
helpful, especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much
like sysinstall, which you seemed to like.
-Nathan

Recently I installed a system from the official memory stick May
snapshot
(FreeBSD-9.0-CURRENT-201105-amd64-memstick.img). here are a few remarks:

- the 1st thing I need to do is to configure the keyboard, as I am not in
the
US. This is needed for an install, but also for using it as a live
system.
And
the keyboard configuration dialog is only a part of the installation
procedure.

- the partition tool is too simple/rudimentary, compared to the old
sysinstall
dialog. I always want to have a total control of the partitions e.g. to
have
a
proper alignement. So one must use the shell escape or the live system,
which is
a regression.

- extracting the tarballs lead to (cryptic) errors: I discovered the hard
way
that I needed to execute a newfs.

- I followed a succession of screens asking me to do the usual
configuration
steps (hostname, clock, network - IPv4 only ?? -, users) and at the end I
get
back a screen asking me if a wanted to do the steps I had done just
before...

- booting the installed system, I found that the hostname disappeared,
the
keyboard was not configured, nor the network, and so on

- during the whole process the screen was scrambled by the occurence of a
number
of LORs displayed on top of the dialogs/messages of the installer.

- the file system of the installer/live system seems to be too small,
leading to
a number of system full messages as soon a few files are written to it.

So the sole value added of the installer was the extraction of the
tarballs..

It seems that (on a memory stick which is writable) that every aborted
attempt
to do a configuration step leaves a trace in some files used by the
installer,
which is able to show it (e.g. the hostname) at the following attempts,
but
without garantee that it will effectively be used.

(On the other hand, the advantage of the memory stick is that the system
on
it
can be configured at will)

Referring to a thread I found recently a propos the documentation on the
install
media, I also want to say that a proper installer must be able to do its
work
without any Internet connectivity. There exist systems which are not
connected,
and networks without any communication with the Internet.

Claude Buisson
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Nathan Whitehorn

On 07/24/11 20:03, Bruce Cran wrote:

On 25/07/2011 00:03, Ron McDowell wrote:
1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting 
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well, 
unacceptable.
2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or few-task 
servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.
3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be 
used on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user 
to changing a nameserver and more.


Another potential problem is that the new version of libdialog that 
the new installer uses changes the way navigation is done: on Linux 
and in the previous version on FreeBSD it's possible to press Tab to 
change focus to the buttons and different UI elements. That doesn't 
work any more.




It's a change from before, but a normalization with respect to most 
Linux distributions, since we are now using the same dialog as, e.g., 
Debian and Ubuntu.

-Nathan
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Bruce Cran

On 25/07/2011 02:08, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

On 07/24/11 20:03, Bruce Cran wrote:

On 25/07/2011 00:03, Ron McDowell wrote:
1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting 
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well, 
unacceptable.
2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or 
few-task servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.
3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be 
used on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user 
to changing a nameserver and more.


Another potential problem is that the new version of libdialog that 
the new installer uses changes the way navigation is done: on Linux 
and in the previous version on FreeBSD it's possible to press Tab 
to change focus to the buttons and different UI elements. That 
doesn't work any more.




It's a change from before, but a normalization with respect to most 
Linux distributions, since we are now using the same dialog as, e.g., 
Debian and Ubuntu.


The Debian 6.0.2.1 installer appears to use the old navigation method, 
and SuSE 11.4 seems to too.


--
Bruce Cran
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Freddie Cash
On Sunday, July 24, 2011, Ron McDowell r...@fuzzwad.org wrote:


 I'll have to agree with the original poster.  I have no problem with the
look and feel of the new installer, but when functionality that WAS there is
now gone, that's a problem.  My two, make that three, biggest gripes are:

 1) no back button/selection/mechanism on each screen.   Rebooting
because I fat-fingered something on the previous screen is, well,
unacceptable.

 2) no minimal install.  Most of my installs are single- or few-task
servers where I need a base os and a couple ports.

The nice thing about bsdinstall is that every install is identical. It's
basically just dumping an image file to disk.

 3) I see no post-install uses on the new one.  Sysinstall could be used
on an up-and-running system to do everything from adding a user to changing
a nameserver and more.

Thank goodness. The worst thing about sysinstall was that it tried to be a
Swiss Army knife doing everything, yet not doing any one thing well. It made
a royal mess of rc.conf if you tried to use it to configure a system.
Usually the first time someone mentions they use it for post-install
configuration, the recommendation is to stop doing that!

An os installer should do just that: install the os and nothing else.

-- 
Freddie Cash
fjwc...@gmail.com
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Re: Trying to install current from a memory stick and then a DVD and got a new and strange installer.

2011-07-24 Thread Warren Block

On Sun, 24 Jul 2011, Nathan Whitehorn wrote:

Can you please describe what you didn't like about it, and what you would 
prefer be changed? Reminiscent of the 1980s is not really helpful, 
especially given that the new installer in fact looks very much like 
sysinstall, which you seemed to like.


For myself, two things jumped out:

1. The use of tab and enter in the dialogs is different enough to be a 
problem, particularly when other dialogs like port options still work as 
before.


2. The disk setup screen is unclear, or unintuitive, at least for me. 
For reference, here's a copy:


  Please review the disk setup. When complete, press
  the Exit button.
  ad0   8.7 GBGPT
ad0p1   64 KB freebsd-boot
ad0p2   8.3 GBfreebsd-ufs/
ad0p3   446 MBfreebsd-swap   none

  Create Delete Modify Revert  Auto   Exit 


1. Extending the highlight bar the whole width of the window would 
help to show what is being operated on.


2.  The options don't always really apply.  Create when ad0 is 
highlighted leads the user to think they can create a new device, like 
ad1.  But it will really create another partition.  Delete on ad0 
deletes all the partitions, not ad0.  No warning, either.


3. Tab in the Modify partition window doesn't go to the next field, but 
to the OK button.  Backtab closes the window instead of going back a 
field.


4. The partition scheme requires a boot partition.  But there's one 
already there.  Possibly this is a bug.


  ad0   8.7 GBGPT
ad0p1   64 KB freebsd-boot
ad0p2   8.3 GBfreebsd-ufs/
ad0p3   446 MBfreebsd-swap   none
ad0p4   64 KB freebsd-boot
ad0p5   926 KBfreebsd-ufs/

5. This one's about method rather than user interface...  Auto creation 
should probably follow the standard of separate partitions for /, swap, 
/var, /tmp, and /usr.  Swap at the end of the disk will be slower, and 
combining all the filesystems is a big change.

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