Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-22 Thread Martin Cracauer

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce Evans wrote: 
 I'm going to work on FreeBSD's floating point support, but I need to
 test my changes on systems using the FPU emulators (non-GPL and GPL). 
 
 Is there any way to use these emulators on a system that has a
 hardware FPU?
 
 Toggling `npx_exists' using ddb used to work.  Now, toggling it off
 on i586 systems causes a panic in the i586-optimised copy routines.

This particular problem has a hook in npx.c:

  device npx0 [...] flags 7

seems to do the trick (disables usage of FPU-optimized mem stuff).


I am now able to switch "npx_exists" between npx_probe1() and
npx_attach(), which let me run with the emulator on a Pentium.

But only from serial kgdb, since as you noted in your other message,
symbols are not available to ddb in ELF kernels started with -d.

I assume you use kdb_init() from db_elf.c, you how do you call it
given that you neither have the symbol (not loaded yet) nor the
address (`nm /kernel` output not useful)?

[Throwing an egg after the chicken that fails to produce the egg]
 
Martin
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Proposed floating point changes (Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?)

1999-07-22 Thread Martin Cracauer

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce Evans wrote: 
 Guessing from LINT's comments, you had to leave out npx and include
 one of the emulators, but -current's config refuses to config a kernel
 file without npx support.
 
 This was broken by adding "mandatory" to the npx line in file.i386.
 
 I also tried to add "disable" to npx's config line, which compiles and
 runs ok, but still uses the hardware FPU (timing and exception test). 
 
 This may be because npx0 now attaches to nexus, but "disable" only works
 for isa devices.  It's annoying that userconfig doesn't support displaying
 or changing npx0.  BTW, PCI devices are no longer displayed by userconfig.

The following diff makes FPU and FPU emulators selectable from
userconfig. npx0 is still mandatory, but it gets an additional flag
bit 0x08, which requests the hardware FPU to be ignored and an
emulator to be used if one is compiled in. If none is compiled into
the kernel, a warning is printed and the hardware FPU is used.

The diff also contains the FPE trapcode stuff, which is now found to
run with GPL_MATH_EMUL (although actualy computing of error codes
isn't done in this case) and not to make things worse for (non-GPL)
MATH_EMUL.

I plan to commit this, unless someone objets (the impressive-looking
trapcode table is only 127 bytes in size, to pre-comment on one
issue).

Martin
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Index: i386/conf/LINT
===
RCS file: /home/CVS-FreeBSD/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT,v
retrieving revision 1.617
diff -c -r1.617 LINT
*** LINT1999/07/09 04:29:56 1.617
--- LINT1999/07/22 22:16:32
***
*** 956,973 
  options   SC_NO_SYSMOUSE
  
  #
! # The Numeric Processing eXtension driver.  This should be configured if
! # your machine has a math co-processor, unless the coprocessor is very
! # buggy. If it is not configured then you *must* configure math emulation
! # (see above).  If both npx0 and emulation are configured, then only npx0
! # is used (provided it works).
  devicenpx0at nexus? port IO_NPX flags 0x0 irq 13
  
  #
  # `flags' for npx0:
! # 0x01don't use the npx registers to optimize bcopy
! # 0x02don't use the npx registers to optimize bzero
  # 0x04don't use the npx registers to optimize copyin or copyout.
  # The npx registers are normally used to optimize copying and zeroing when
  # all of the following conditions are satisfied:
  # I586_CPU is an option
--- 956,975 
  options   SC_NO_SYSMOUSE
  
  #
! # The Numeric Processing eXtension driver. In addition to this, you
! # may configure a math emulator (see above). If your machine has a
! # hardware FPU and the kernel configuration includes the npx device
! # *and* a math emulator compiled into the kernel, the hardware FPU
! # will be used, unless it is found to be broken or unless "flags" to
! # npx0 includes "0x08", which requests preference for the emulator.
  devicenpx0at nexus? port IO_NPX flags 0x0 irq 13
  
  #
  # `flags' for npx0:
! # 0x01don't use the npx registers to optimize bcopy.
! # 0x02don't use the npx registers to optimize bzero.
  # 0x04don't use the npx registers to optimize copyin or copyout.
+ # 0x08use emulator even if hardware FPU is available.
  # The npx registers are normally used to optimize copying and zeroing when
  # all of the following conditions are satisfied:
  # I586_CPU is an option
***
*** 978,983 
--- 980,988 
  # The flags can be used to control cases where it doesn't work or is slower.
  # Setting them at boot time using userconfig works right (the optimizations
  # are not used until later in the bootstrap when npx0 is attached).
+ # Flag 0x08 does not imply any settings of the other flags, you may run
+ # with FPU preference set to emulator, but still using the i586 optimized
+ # memory routines.
  #
  
  #
***
*** 1149,1154 
--- 1154,1160 
  # higher priority console).  This replaces the COMCONSOLE option.
  # 0x40reserve this unit for low level console operations.  Do not
  # access the device in any normal way.
+ # 0x80use this port for serial line gdb support in ddb.
  #
  # PnP `flags' (set via userconfig using pnp x flags y)
  # 0x1 disable probing of this device.  Used to prevent your modem
Index: i386/i386/trap.c
===
RCS file: /home/CVS-FreeBSD/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c,v
retrieving revision 1.139
diff -c -r1.139 trap.c
*** trap.c  1999/06/18 14:32:16 1.139
--- trap.c  1999/07/22 19:13:55
***
*** 360,366 
break;
  
case T_DIVIDE:  /* integer 

Re: Proposed floating point changes (Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?)

1999-07-22 Thread Douglas Thomas Crosher


 +  * The macro to choose one of these values does these steps: 1) Throw
 +  * away status word bits that cannot be masked. 2) Throw away the bits
 +  * currently masked in the control word, assuming the user isn't
 +  * interested in them anymore. 3) Reinsert status word bit 7 (stack

Throwing away the status bits is rather restricting.  This restriction
could be avoided by passing back the status word within the third
argument. A library function could be provided to implement your error
code mapping while not limiting the kernel interface.

Regards
Douglas Crosher


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-14 Thread Peter Jeremy

Hi Warner,

Without commenting on the need to have an emulator in the kernel,
doesn't -msoft-float work faster?
Yes it does.  The kernel has to emulate an 80x87, giving you the
following sequence:
a) trap to kernel
b) decode FP instruction
c) fetch operands - possibly including copyin()
d) perform operation [this is the only bit the soft-FP code does]
e) store result - possibly including copyout()
f) return from trap

The trap/decode/copyin()/copyout()/rtt are all non-trivial.

  Or is that a MIPS only thing...
It's documented under i386 as well.  There is a note that gcc can
still emit some hardware FP instructions (to return FP values on
the 80x87 stack), but this can be prevented with -mno-fp-ret-in-387

The disadvantage of soft-FP is that you wind up with lots of different
libc's - one for h/w FP, one for soft FP and maybe a few more for
different FP formats (eg FFP on M68K, or a `cut-a-few-corners-but-
give-almost-the-correct-answer-much-faster' IEEE, or single-precision
only IEEE).  This is less of a problem in an embedded system, where
the FP requirements (if needed at all) are well defined.  (The problem
is that using the wrong library generally doesn't show up until
run-time - when the results aren't what you expected).

Note that the GNU newlib defines `iprintf()' (and family) as an
integer-only printf() to avoid pulling in all the FP overhead when
it's not really needed.

Peter


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-13 Thread Peter Jeremy

Doug Rabson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You might consider looking at the fp emulator which I wrote for the alpha.
It should be accurate (I tested against the fpu on an x86) and contains
test harness code which can be used to play with it on both x86 and alpha.

Anyone interested in working on FP emulation (or checking the
shortcuts DEC made when then designed the Alpha) might like to
check out http://www.netlib.org/fp/ucbtest.tar.gz:

 UCBTEST is a suite of programs for testing certain difficult cases of
IEEE 754 floating-point arithmetic.  Some of the difficult test cases are
obtained from number-theoretic algorithms developed by Turing Award winner
Prof. W. Kahan, Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science,
University of California, Berkeley, as part of ongoing research into test
methods for computer arithmetic.

Peter


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-13 Thread Martin Cracauer

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Garrett Wollman wrote: 
 On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:28:04 +0200, Martin Cracauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
  I'm going to work on FreeBSD's floating point support, but I need to
  test my changes on systems using the FPU emulators (non-GPL and GPL). 
 
 I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
 non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
 soundly defeated.

Is the discussion you mentioned archived somewhere / was it on a
public list? I'd like to read about the technical complications that
arise from non-FPU support.

Another class of machines I'd like to support are 486sx laptops, which
make a nice system to run around-the-clock in a home environment.
Also, there are many old (donated) PCs in the third world, eastern
europe and Hamburg-Altona, a market that may become important, given
the number of capable programmers who live there.

I don't expect the work I'm going to do (FP exceptions) to be
difficult to support on non-FPU machines, so I'm going to get a
non-FPU machine to test it.

Martin
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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-13 Thread Trevor Johnson

Alex Zepeda wrote:

 I've noticed recently, more and more, Linux is moving into the embedded
 market quite nicely, and being used on smaller and smaller systems.
 FreeBSD OTOH has been focusing (albeit not too successfully) on the higher
 end market.

OTOOH:  http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/
__
Trevor Johnson



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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-13 Thread Brian F. Feldman

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Peter Jeremy wrote:

 Doug Rabson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You might consider looking at the fp emulator which I wrote for the alpha.
 It should be accurate (I tested against the fpu on an x86) and contains
 test harness code which can be used to play with it on both x86 and alpha.
 
 Anyone interested in working on FP emulation (or checking the
 shortcuts DEC made when then designed the Alpha) might like to
 check out http://www.netlib.org/fp/ucbtest.tar.gz:

fetch: ucbtest.tar.gz: www.netlib.org: HTTP server returned error code 404
Where's it really at?

 
  UCBTEST is a suite of programs for testing certain difficult cases of
 IEEE 754 floating-point arithmetic.  Some of the difficult test cases are
 obtained from number-theoretic algorithms developed by Turing Award winner
 Prof. W. Kahan, Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science,
 University of California, Berkeley, as part of ongoing research into test
 methods for computer arithmetic.
 
 Peter
 
 
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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-13 Thread Wilko Bulte

As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote ...
 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Bria
 
  I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
  non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
  soundly defeated.
 
 Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What non-ancient
 CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...
 
 A lot of 386 machines are being built into places where people will
 never know they are.  We should not kill that market.

www.tcja.nl was an ancient 386/40 until a couple of months ago. Low
traffic Web servers don't (generally) need an FPU. 
No/low budget outfits run hardware most
people on this list would give away for free (or thrash altogether).

It is a M$-ism to discard a complete line of machines with each next
release...

Just my Dfl 0.02

-- 
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|/|/ / / /( (_) BulteWWW  : http://www.tcja.nl  http://www.freebsd.org


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-13 Thread Oliver Fromme

Wilko Bulte wrote in list.freebsd-current:
  As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote ...
   In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Bria
   
I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
soundly defeated.
   
   Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What non-ancient
   CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...
   
   A lot of 386 machines are being built into places where people will
   never know they are.  We should not kill that market.
  
  www.tcja.nl was an ancient 386/40 until a couple of months ago. Low
  traffic Web servers don't (generally) need an FPU. 
  No/low budget outfits run hardware most
  people on this list would give away for free (or thrash altogether).
  
  It is a M$-ism to discard a complete line of machines with each next
  release...

I agree 100%.

My "mobile emergency terminal" is an old 486SX notebook with
3.5 Mbyte RAM and 120 Mbyte HD.  It works perfectly well for
what I use it for.  And I'd hate to have to keep an "old"
release around for it while upgrading all other boxes.

(Remember, 486SX processors don't have FPUs either.)

Regards
   Oliver

PS:  No, I'm not doing "make world" on it.
(In fact, I removed the compiler toolchain to save HD space.)

-- 
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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Doug Rabson

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Martin Cracauer wrote:

 Moin,
 
 I'm going to work on FreeBSD's floating point support, but I need to
 test my changes on systems using the FPU emulators (non-GPL and GPL). 
 
 Is there any way to use these emulators on a system that has a
 hardware FPU?
 
 Guessing from LINT's comments, you had to leave out npx and include
 one of the emulators, but -current's config refuses to config a kernel
 file without npx support.
 
 I also tried to add "disable" to npx's config line, which compiles and
 runs ok, but still uses the hardware FPU (timing and exception test). 

You might consider looking at the fp emulator which I wrote for the alpha.
It should be accurate (I tested against the fpu on an x86) and contains
test harness code which can be used to play with it on both x86 and alpha.

--
Doug Rabson Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.  Phone: +44 181 442 9037




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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Brian F. Feldman

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Garrett Wollman wrote:

 On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:28:04 +0200, Martin Cracauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
  I'm going to work on FreeBSD's floating point support, but I need to
  test my changes on systems using the FPU emulators (non-GPL and GPL). 
 
 I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
 non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
 soundly defeated.

Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What non-ancient
CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...

 
 -GAWollman
 
 --
 Garrett A. Wollman   | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | O Siem / The fires of freedom 
 Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame
 MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick
 
 
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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Bria

 I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
 non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
 soundly defeated.

Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What non-ancient
CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...

A lot of 386 machines are being built into places where people will
never know they are.  We should not kill that market.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Julian Elischer



On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Garrett Wollman wrote:

 On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:28:04 +0200, Martin Cracauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
  I'm going to work on FreeBSD's floating point support, but I need to
  test my changes on systems using the FPU emulators (non-GPL and GPL). 
 
 I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
 non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
 soundly defeated.

there are a lot of 486sx and 386 machines out there doing real work.

 
 -GAWollman
 
 --
 Garrett A. Wollman   | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | O Siem / The fires of freedom 
 Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame
 MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick
 
 
 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
 



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RE: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread David Schwartz


  Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore.
 What non-ancient
  CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...
 

 Embedded systems, anyone?

True, but how late a version do you really want to run on them? I've left
even my P60's at FreeBSD-2.x and have no intention of ever upgrading them.

DS



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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Daniel Eischen

 Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What non-ancient
 CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...

IIRC, there were a few folks running FreeBSD in an embedded
environment.  Perhaps with 80386 FPU coprocessor-less systems?

Dan Eischen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Jesper Skriver

On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 01:38:57PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote:
 
   Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore.
  What non-ancient
   CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...
  
 
  Embedded systems, anyone?
 
   True, but how late a version do you really want to run on them? I've left
 even my P60's at FreeBSD-2.x and have no intention of ever upgrading them.

Lots of new embedded systems are slow pentiums, and quite a few are 486,
probably sx some of them ...

/Jesper

-- 
Jesper Skriver (JS4261-RIPE), Network manager  
Tele Danmark DataNet, IP section (AS3292)

One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them,
One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them.


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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Alex Zepeda

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Brian F. Feldman wrote:

 Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What
 non-ancient CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386
 family here...

I've noticed recently, more and more, Linux is moving into the embedded
market quite nicely, and being used on smaller and smaller systems.
FreeBSD OTOH has been focusing (albeit not too successfully) on the higher
end market.

With my recent addition of an 040 powered Mac that I plan to put NetBSD
on, this really irks me.  I'd love to put some (read: a significant)
amount of time getting FreeBSD up and running on this, but there seems to
be a lot of resistance to using FreeBSD on smaller/older machines. It
almost seems like the requirement is Pentium III, Alpha or bust.

And yes, this machine does have an FPU, but there are plenty of *newer*
systems without FPUs For instance, doesn't the StrongArm lack an FPU? What
about embedded systems?  A 486SX would draw a whole lot less power than a
Pentium.  And it's certainly not like emulating an FPU is an impossible
task like say on some LC040s...

- alex



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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Mike Smith

  I suggested about half a year ago that we should officially desupport
  non-FPU configurations in 4.0.  Unfortunately, my resolution was
  soundly defeated.
 
 Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What non-ancient
 CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386 family here...

Lots (and I mean _lots_) of embedded systems use fpu-less 386 and 486 
cores.  Alienating users of these systems would be a dumb idea.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard   \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.   \\  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
\\-- Joseph Merrick   \\  [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Using float emulator on a system with FPU?

1999-07-12 Thread Matthew N. Dodd

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Brian F. Feldman wrote:
 Why shouldn't we? Noone uses machines without FPUs anymore. What
 non-ancient CPU doesn't have an FPU? And we're talking about the i386
 family here...

I've got a few.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] |   2 x '84 Volvo 245DL| ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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