Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-17 Thread Nate Williams

  It requires two downloads to get a working JDK system.  No other OS
  requires multiple packages to work.
  
  People shouldn't have to compile Motif up just to get a non-source
  version of the JDK to work.  Versioning problems that can be caused by
  folks using different include files and/or X than what was used to build
  the JDK.  Bugs that have slipped in due to changes in the Motif port
  that negatively effect the JDK.
  
  Shall I go on?
 
 I'm curious... what happens when someone who has already installed Motif
 then tries to install JDK?

Nothing.  It should use the version inside the JDK, and it won't effect
the version outside the JDK.


Nate


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Sheldon Hearn



On Mon, 15 May 2000 23:08:23 -0400, Donn Miller wrote:

  Check it out at:
  http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/
 
 Yes, that is great news!  I tried compiling it, but I had trouble with
 lib/Xm/Scale.c.  It wanted to include langinfo.h, which FreeBSD
 doesn't have.

I've integrated NetBSD's langinfo and nl_types support into FreeBSD.  I
can send you patches if you haven't managed to work around this yet?

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Donn Miller

On Tue, 16 May 2000, Sheldon Hearn wrote:

 I've integrated NetBSD's langinfo and nl_types support into FreeBSD.  I
 can send you patches if you haven't managed to work around this yet?

Great.  Please send me the patches.  BTW, by "integrated", do you mean
that you've integrated them into the base FreeBSD distribution, or is it a
port (or merely a set of patches)?

Thanks.

- Donn



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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Garance A Drosihn

  I think that you no longer have to include Motif with the JDK.
  Just let the distribution of Motif come from freebsd.org , i.e.,
  a port or a package.

Too much hassle IMO.  I'd *much* rather distribute it as part of the
package, and I'm looking into how feasible it would be to distribute
inside of the JDK.

If this Open Motif can be distributed as a port or package for FreeBSD
itself (and it seems to me that it can), then what hassle is that for
JDK on FreeBSD?  My guess is the Open Motif port/package will exist on
FreeBSD anyway, for those who want motif but are not going to install
JDK.  At that point, it's just another package-dependency for the JDK
like any other package-dependency.  Certainly no one will want TWO
copies of Open Motif...


---
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Senior Systems Programmer  or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Nate Williams

   I think that you no longer have to include Motif with the JDK.
   Just let the distribution of Motif come from freebsd.org , i.e.,
   a port or a package.
 
 Too much hassle IMO.  I'd *much* rather distribute it as part of the
 package, and I'm looking into how feasible it would be to distribute
 inside of the JDK.
 
 If this Open Motif can be distributed as a port or package for FreeBSD
 itself (and it seems to me that it can), then what hassle is that for
 JDK on FreeBSD?

It requires two downloads to get a working JDK system.  No other OS
requires multiple packages to work.

People shouldn't have to compile Motif up just to get a non-source
version of the JDK to work.  Versioning problems that can be caused by
folks using different include files and/or X than what was used to build
the JDK.  Bugs that have slipped in due to changes in the Motif port
that negatively effect the JDK.

Shall I go on?



Nate


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread R Joseph Wright

On Tue, 16 May 2000, Sheldon Hearn wrote:

 
 
 On Mon, 15 May 2000 23:08:23 -0400, Donn Miller wrote:
 
   Check it out at:
   http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/
  
  Yes, that is great news!  I tried compiling it, but I had trouble with
  lib/Xm/Scale.c.  It wanted to include langinfo.h, which FreeBSD
  doesn't have.
 
 I've integrated NetBSD's langinfo and nl_types support into FreeBSD.  I
 can send you patches if you haven't managed to work around this yet?
 

That's interesting.  I compiled it without problems.  Why would it look
for langinfo.h on one machine and not another?



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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Garance A Drosihn

At 9:35 AM -0600 5/16/00, Nate Williams wrote:
  If this Open Motif can be distributed as a port or package for FreeBSD
  itself (and it seems to me that it can), then what hassle is that for
  JDK on FreeBSD?

It requires two downloads to get a working JDK system.  No other OS
requires multiple packages to work.

As long as package-dependencies are handled automatically, I do not
see this as a problem.

People shouldn't have to compile Motif up just to get a non-source
version of the JDK to work.  Versioning problems that can be caused by
folks using different include files and/or X than what was used to build
the JDK.  Bugs that have slipped in due to changes in the Motif port
that negatively effect the JDK.

Hmm.  You're saying that if I already have X installed, and if I already
have Open Motif installed, then if JDK uses these already-working packages
it will have bugs, and thus it has to install it's own version of Motif?
(and it's own version of X?).  I don't have any reason to doubt you, if
you say that's true, but if that's true then it does not leave me with a
"warm and fuzzy" feeling about JDK/Motif.


---
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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Nate Williams

   If this Open Motif can be distributed as a port or package for FreeBSD
   itself (and it seems to me that it can), then what hassle is that for
   JDK on FreeBSD?
 
 It requires two downloads to get a working JDK system.  No other OS
 requires multiple packages to work.
 
 As long as package-dependencies are handled automatically, I do not
 see this as a problem.
 
 People shouldn't have to compile Motif up just to get a non-source
 version of the JDK to work.  Versioning problems that can be caused by
 folks using different include files and/or X than what was used to build
 the JDK.  Bugs that have slipped in due to changes in the Motif port
 that negatively effect the JDK.
 
 Hmm.  You're saying that if I already have X installed, and if I already
 have Open Motif installed, then if JDK uses these already-working packages
 it will have bugs, and thus it has to install it's own version of
 Motif?

No, I'm saying that OpenSource Motif *will* be going through lots of
gyrations in the future, and these gyrations may cause instabilities in
the JDK.

But, if the JDK uses the Motif version it was compiled against, it will
work 'consistently.

Unlike X (which rarely changes), I suspect the Motif stuff to change
alot.


Nate


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread VINSON WAYNE HOWARD


 No, I'm saying that OpenSource Motif *will* be going through lots of
 gyrations in the future, and these gyrations may cause instabilities in
 the JDK.
 
 But, if the JDK uses the Motif version it was compiled against, it will
 work 'consistently.
 
 Unlike X (which rarely changes), I suspect the Motif stuff to change
 alot.
 
 
 Nate

IT seems to me that this might not be much of a problem.  Have a "last
stable motif" port/package.  The JDK guys can choose when to move it to a
new version, and should do so when they see a version that doen't cause
problems for the JDK.  Don't give this port/package the normal motif
library names, but sim-link it to those names.  Compile the JDK against
the special lib names, not the normal motif names.  Now, have a "bleeding
edge" motif that can be installed.  it installs into the normal motif
locations. 

look what this does for the user:

1. If they'd rather be stable anyways, they just install the last-good
version.  all is well - both the jdk and their other apps see an
acceptable motif.

2.  If they need bleeding-edge, they can install it. JDK will still work.
Yes, they have two motif versions, but they need both versions, so this is
OK.

3. If they start out last-good, and move to bleeding edge, everything
works out just fine.

4. If a bleeding-edge user updates their last-good motif, it doesn't screw
things up since last-good can't sim-link over the real libs.  Just the JDK
is affected.

5. If a user doesn't use the jdk, they can install bleeding-edge and it
works for all non-JDK apps.

One usefull addon would be to have bleeding-edge re-create the last-good
sim-links when it is pkg_deleted if that's possible.

Just my $0.02



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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Brandon D. Valentine

On Tue, 16 May 2000, Nate Williams wrote:

Unlike X (which rarely changes), I suspect the Motif stuff to change
alot.

I'm unclear on what gyrations you are expecting from a mature API
codified in an IEEE standard.  As long as you're using the Motif
standard interface in your code you should have nothing to worry about.

Brandon D. Valentine
-- 
"You should believe in death, taxes, Larry Ellison's loathing of Bill
Gates and Intel's inability to ship a working chipset."
 - Dr Spinola, The Register, 05/13/2000



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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-16 Thread Nate Williams

 Unlike X (which rarely changes), I suspect the Motif stuff to change
 alot.
 
 I'm unclear on what gyrations you are expecting from a mature API
 codified in an IEEE standard.  As long as you're using the Motif
 standard interface in your code you should have nothing to worry about.

Ahh, but I'm not expecting the API to change, but I'm expecting the
internals to change.  For example, Sun changed Motif in between JDK1.1
and JDK1.2 because of bugs in it.  Also, Motif doesn't compile under
FreeBSD cleanly right now, and I expect it to change as it supports
internationalization and such.


Nate


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Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-15 Thread Amancio Hasty


Check it out at:
http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/

"We want to support the momentum of Open Source operating systems such as
Linux® and FreeBSD by developing an Open Motif® licence for use with 
Open Source operating systems."

Also the OpenGroup is looking for sites to mirror their Motif 
distribution 8)

Happy Downloading!
-- 
 Amancio Hasty
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-15 Thread Donn Miller

Amancio Hasty wrote:
 
 Check it out at:
 http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/

Yes, that is great news!  I tried compiling it, but I had trouble with
lib/Xm/Scale.c.  It wanted to include langinfo.h, which FreeBSD
doesn't have.  So, I copied langinfo.h from
/usr/compat/linux/usr/include, but even then, there was this constant
that was undeclared.  So, did you get it to compile, and would you
mind posting a patch?  I understand some FreeBSD people (epecially the
JDK folks) really want to run Motif on FreeBSD.  Way to go, Open
Group.  That ought to shut up the Linux Qt/Gtk "we want everything on
the planet free w/source code" whiners.  I mean, I like Qt and Gtk. 
But, having Motif source freely available for Linux and FreeBSD is a
big step, IMO.


- Donn


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-15 Thread Nate Williams

 Check it out at:
 http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/
 
 "We want to support the momentum of Open Source operating systems such as
 Linux® and FreeBSD by developing an Open Motif® licence for use with 
 Open Source operating systems."
 
 Also the OpenGroup is looking for sites to mirror their Motif 
 distribution 8)

I have a copy.  However, the license is 'interesting' enough to read
that I'm not sure it can be used inside the JDK distribution, so if
someone can give me an explanation that I can understand that I'm legal
to distribute the library as part of an application, please show me in
terms a mere engineer can understand.

Thanks!


Nate


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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-15 Thread Amancio Hasty

 
 I have a copy.  However, the license is 'interesting' enough to read
 that I'm not sure it can be used inside the JDK distribution, so if
 someone can give me an explanation that I can understand that I'm legal
 to distribute the library as part of an application, please show me in
 terms a mere engineer can understand.

I think that you no longer have to include Motif with the JDK.
Just let the distribution of Motif come from freebsd.org , i.e.,
a port or a package.

My take is that companies distributing FreeBSD or linux are
free to distribute the source and binary for those "Open
Source" operating systems.




-- 
 Amancio Hasty
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Motif is now Open Source 8)

2000-05-15 Thread Amancio Hasty

   I have a copy.  However, the license is 'interesting' enough to read
   that I'm not sure it can be used inside the JDK distribution, so if
   someone can give me an explanation that I can understand that I'm legal
   to distribute the library as part of an application, please show me in
   terms a mere engineer can understand.
  
  I think that you no longer have to include Motif with the JDK.
  Just let the distribution of Motif come from freebsd.org , i.e.,
  a port or a package.
 
 Too much hassle IMO.  I'd *much* rather distribute it as part of the
 package, and I'm looking into how feasible it would be to distribute
 inside of the JDK.
 

Well, just asked them because I don't see any problems in doing 
what you want because is for an Open Source Operating System.


-- 
 Amancio Hasty
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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