Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-07 Thread Garrett Wollman

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:51:06 -0400 (EDT), "Brandon D. Valentine" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 Sounds like a good enough reason to me to port the newer NetBSD LFS code
 to FreeBSD.

Or, even better, for someone to implement background fsck for soft
updates.

-GAWollman

--
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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-07 Thread Brandon D. Valentine

On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Garrett Wollman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:51:06 -0400 (EDT), "Brandon D. Valentine" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 Sounds like a good enough reason to me to port the newer NetBSD LFS code
 to FreeBSD.

Or, even better, for someone to implement background fsck for soft
updates.

Yes, that too would be wonderful.

Brandon D. Valentine
-- 
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"Truth suffers from too much analysis." -- Ancient Fremen Saying



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-07 Thread Rahul Dhesi

I recently wrote:

It's not the green that's important, it's the 'OK'.  The way Redhat
Linux boots, you can see at a glance which start-up commands failed and
which ones succeeded.  The way FreeBSD boots, it's all one big blur.

Also, in the Linux scheme, there is a standard mechanism to keep track
of which boot-time service has already been started, and any accidental
re-invocation of the script (without an intervening 'stop') will be
detected and rejected.  I personally find the 'chkconfig' command to be
very convenient to enable, disable, and list boot-time services, without
having to manually rename xxx.sh to xxx.sh.DISABLED and back.

I am a bit disappointed by some of the responses I saw.  Many of them
exhibit the NIH ("not invented here") syndrome.  Some are just
argumentative with no useful content.  Some make invalid assumptions.
Some argue that the idea should be rejected just because some specific
implementation might be flawed.

Nobody has come up with any any real reason why the user should not at a
glance be able to tell which boot-time services failed and which ones
succeeded.
-- 
Rahul



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-07 Thread Doug White

On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Rahul Dhesi wrote:

 Nobody has come up with any any real reason why the user should not at a
 glance be able to tell which boot-time services failed and which ones
 succeeded.

- The existing system does this already
- Masking error messages is Evil(tm)

Doug White|  FreeBSD: The Power to Serve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |  www.FreeBSD.org



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Rahul Dhesi

Thomas Gellekum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

/etc/rc.shutdown in -current has been changed to call the scripts in
${local_startup} with the `stop' option. This allows packages like
databases to call their own shutdown methods and clean up after
themselves

This will make it a bit harder to quickly add a boot-time start-up
script.  If not done right, the start-up script will be called twice,
and will try to start the program each time, if it doesn't recognize the
'stop' argument.  Not upward compatible and possibly harmful to some
software.

Better would be to put compatible scripts in a new directory.

   rc.d : invoked without arguments only when system boots
   rc.e : invoked with 'start' or 'stop' 
  argument, when system boots or shuts down

Alternatively a new suffix could be used.

   name.sh  : invoked without arguments only when system boots
   name.nsh : invoked with 'start' or 'stop' argument, 
when system boots or shuts down

Alternatively (less upward compatible) legacy scripts could be
given a different suffix.  Then just a rename would make a script
compatible, without having to rewrite it to recognize 'start'
and 'stop' arguments.

   name.osh  : invoked without arguments only when system boots
   name.sh :   invoked with 'start' or 'stop' argument, 
 when system boots or shuts down

Other upward-compatible solutions are probably possible.

Oh, also, the order in which scripts are called ought ideally
be to be reversed at shutdown time.
-- 
Rahul



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Rahul Dhesi

Linh Pham [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
 
 j/k

I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
that direction.

It's not the green that's important, it's the 'OK'.  The way Redhat
Linux boots, you can see at a glance which start-up commands failed and
which ones succeeded.  The way FreeBSD boots, it's all one big blur.

Also, in the Linux scheme, there is a standard mechanism to keep track
of which boot-time service has already been started, and any accidental
re-invocation of the script (without an intervening 'stop') will be
detected and rejected.  I personally find the 'chkconfig' command to be
very convenient to enable, disable, and list boot-time services, without
having to manually rename xxx.sh to xxx.sh.DISABLED and back.
-- 
Rahul



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Marcel Moolenaar

Rahul Dhesi wrote:
 
  Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
 
 I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
 that direction.
 
 It's not the green that's important, it's the 'OK'.  The way Redhat
 Linux boots, you can see at a glance which start-up commands failed and
 which ones succeeded.  The way FreeBSD boots, it's all one big blur.

I don't like the Linux/HP-UX/whatever way simply because it's non-unix
in the sense that normally output is generated only in case of failure
or in exceptional conditions. It's "telling" me things I don't want to
"hear". The same applies to having "N/A" or "FAIL" emitted for services
that aren't enabled/configured (in which case printing "FAIL" is plain
wrong).

 Also, in the Linux scheme, there is a standard mechanism to keep track
 of which boot-time service has already been started, and any accidental
 re-invocation of the script (without an intervening 'stop') will be
 detected and rejected.

Which means that if the daemon is down and the script doesn't know about
it, you have to remove pid files and whatnot to use the script again to
get the daemon running, right?

 I personally find the 'chkconfig' command to be
 very convenient to enable, disable, and list boot-time services, without
 having to manually rename xxx.sh to xxx.sh.DISABLED and back.

You mean the irritating pop-up that asks you questions everytime the
bloody machine boots? :-)

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar
  mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Thomas D. Dean

We have gone to some pains in the past to make the rc.d scripts silent.

Either work or fail silently.

  if [ -x ... ]; do
...
  done

Now, with the addition of the start/stop, there is a message output if
the argument is not 'start' or 'stop'.

The default should be 'start'.  These scripts are frequently used to
restart or redo things.

And, continue to exit silently in all cases.

tomdean


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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Adrian Chadd

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000, Rahul Dhesi wrote:
 Linh Pham [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
  
  j/k
 
 I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
 that direction.
 
 It's not the green that's important, it's the 'OK'.  The way Redhat
 Linux boots, you can see at a glance which start-up commands failed and
 which ones succeeded.  The way FreeBSD boots, it's all one big blur.
 
 Also, in the Linux scheme, there is a standard mechanism to keep track
 of which boot-time service has already been started, and any accidental
 re-invocation of the script (without an intervening 'stop') will be
 detected and rejected.  I personally find the 'chkconfig' command to be
 very convenient to enable, disable, and list boot-time services, without
 having to manually rename xxx.sh to xxx.sh.DISABLED and back.

Well, chkconfig isn't a linux thing:

replicate 1% uname -a
IRIX replicate 6.5 05190003 IP22
replicate 2% which chkconfig
/sbin/chkconfig
replicate 3% 

And its actually very useful IMHO. Thats what rc.conf is for though, right?

enable_pkg_apache="YES"
enable_pkg_qmail="YES"
enable_pkg_mysql="YES"

and so on .. ?


Adrian

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and
he's warm for the rest of his life.



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Adrian Chadd

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000, Adrian Chadd wrote:
 
 And its actually very useful IMHO. Thats what rc.conf is for though, right?
 
 enable_pkg_apache="YES"
 enable_pkg_qmail="YES"
 enable_pkg_mysql="YES"
 
 and so on .. ?

Before people start going "huh?" .. that was an idea, not an outline
as to what happens today. :-P



Adrian

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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Jonathan Smith


Quickie question:

By implementing the 'start' and 'stop' in the local scripts, how much
should one _expect_ their systems bootup and slow down times to take?

I'm hearing whines of being to linux like, to sysv'ish and some likely
valid complaints on startup/shutdown time.

I, for one, like the functionality, and thought it kinda already worked
that way (or maybe I _made_ it work that way on my machines, cn't
remember).  I would like solid facts, rather than a religious/exagerated
discussion.


To my (limited) understanding of this subject, it's not going to make hour
long boot-ups.  It may increase shutdown time to do things, but, sometimes
you need to properly shut things down.  If that were not the case, one
could flip the power switch instead of typing shutdown..



--
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My heart. --  Come here. --  Your heart. --  See?  We're exactly the same.

Jon Smith -- Senior Math Major @ Purdue

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Dan Nelson wrote:

 In the last episode (Jul 06), Thomas Gellekum said:
  sorry for the late notice, I forgot to mail this yesterday.
  
  /etc/rc.shutdown in -current has been changed to call the scripts in
  ${local_startup} with the `stop' option. This allows packages like
  databases to call their own shutdown methods and clean up after
  themselves. All the ports have been changed accordingly. If you still
  have old startup scripts lying around in /usr/{local,X11R6}/etc/rc.d
  you should upgrade these ASAP.
 
 Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
 
 j/k
 
 -- 
   Dan Nelson
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Wilko Bulte

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 12:53:09PM -0400, Brandon D. Valentine wrote:
 On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote:
 
 Many Linux distributions do this too.  It seems about as useful as a car's
 idiot light(s)...  IMO, I would prefer to see useful information during
 boot than that eye-candy.
 
 I'd prefer to buy a box of blinkenlights to put in a spare 5.25" bay and
 let the dmesg on boot reflect only what I need to know as an admin when
 the box comes up.

We had that once. It's called a PDP/11

-- 
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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Dan Nelson

In the last episode (Jul 06), Thomas Gellekum said:
 sorry for the late notice, I forgot to mail this yesterday.
 
 /etc/rc.shutdown in -current has been changed to call the scripts in
 ${local_startup} with the `stop' option. This allows packages like
 databases to call their own shutdown methods and clean up after
 themselves. All the ports have been changed accordingly. If you still
 have old startup scripts lying around in /usr/{local,X11R6}/etc/rc.d
 you should upgrade these ASAP.

Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)

j/k

-- 
Dan Nelson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Linh Pham


 In the last episode (Jul 06), Thomas Gellekum said:
  sorry for the late notice, I forgot to mail this yesterday.
  
  /etc/rc.shutdown in -current has been changed to call the scripts in
  ${local_startup} with the `stop' option. This allows packages like
  databases to call their own shutdown methods and clean up after
  themselves. All the ports have been changed accordingly. If you still
  have old startup scripts lying around in /usr/{local,X11R6}/etc/rc.d
  you should upgrade these ASAP.
 
 Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
 
 j/k

I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
that direction.

 
 -- 
   Dan Nelson
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message
 



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread David Scheidt

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Linh Pham wrote:

: 
: Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
: 
: j/k
:
:I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
:that direction.


HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot


David



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Linh Pham

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, David Scheidt wrote:

 On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Linh Pham wrote:
 
 : 
 : Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
 : 
 : j/k
 :
 :I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
 :that direction.
 
 
 HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
 because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot

An hour to boot? Boy... the only time I ever saw a machine take an hour to
boot (which does not include the POST/memory check/BIOS screen) was a
486SX/33 with 24MB of RAM running Windows NT 3.51 SP3. Of course it was
running off of a 5 1/4" 400MB SCSI hard drive too!

 
 
 David
 
 



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Chris D. Faulhaber

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, David Scheidt wrote:

 On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Linh Pham wrote:
 
 : 
 : Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
 : 
 : j/k
 :
 :I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
 :that direction.
 
 
 HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
 because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot
 

Many Linux distributions do this too.  It seems about as useful as a car's
idiot light(s)...  IMO, I would prefer to see useful information during
boot than that eye-candy.

-
Chris D. Faulhaber - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

FreeBSD: The Power To Serve   -   http://www.FreeBSD.org



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Walter Campbell

  HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
  because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot
 
 An hour to boot? Boy... the only time I ever saw a machine take an hour to
 boot (which does not include the POST/memory check/BIOS screen) was a
 486SX/33 with 24MB of RAM running Windows NT 3.51 SP3. Of course it was
 running off of a 5 1/4" 400MB SCSI hard drive too!

Try a Solaris 2.6 machine fsck'ing an array of 14 9.1 giggers

Longest I've ever seen a BSD box boot was about 10-15 minutes though,
including fsck'ing 4 drives



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Brandon D. Valentine

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote:

Many Linux distributions do this too.  It seems about as useful as a car's
idiot light(s)...  IMO, I would prefer to see useful information during
boot than that eye-candy.

I'd prefer to buy a box of blinkenlights to put in a spare 5.25" bay and
let the dmesg on boot reflect only what I need to know as an admin when
the box comes up.

Brandon D. Valentine
-- 
bandix at looksharp.net  |  bandix at structbio.vanderbilt.edu
"Truth suffers from too much analysis." -- Ancient Fremen Saying



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Richard Stanaford


How bout a booting a SparcStation running Solaris 2.6 off a 1x CDROM?  When it
finally got done, I had to sit and remind myself what was wrong with it.

-Richard




--- Walter Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
   because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot
  
  An hour to boot? Boy... the only time I ever saw a machine take an hour to
  boot (which does not include the POST/memory check/BIOS screen) was a
  486SX/33 with 24MB of RAM running Windows NT 3.51 SP3. Of course it was
  running off of a 5 1/4" 400MB SCSI hard drive too!
 
 Try a Solaris 2.6 machine fsck'ing an array of 14 9.1 giggers
 
 Longest I've ever seen a BSD box boot was about 10-15 minutes though,
 including fsck'ing 4 drives
 
 
 
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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Doug White

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Rahul Dhesi wrote:

 Linh Pham [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Can we have little green "[ OK ]"s as well? :)
  
  j/k
 
 I hope you are joking... LOL... We don't want Linux emulation to go in
 that direction.
 
 It's not the green that's important, it's the 'OK'.  The way Redhat
 Linux boots, you can see at a glance which start-up commands failed and
 which ones succeeded.  The way FreeBSD boots, it's all one big blur.

But guess what, the error messages are eaten.  I've had times where errors
were not redirected into the log so you have phantom errors. Plus I've had
erroneous 'OK' conditions on things that were actually broken (eg missing
ethernet interfaces).

The current way spews the error all over, but it's plainly obvious what's
broken and why.

Doug White|  FreeBSD: The Power to Serve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |  www.FreeBSD.org



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Mike Meyer

Jonathan Smith writes:
 I, for one, like the functionality, and thought it kinda already worked
 that way (or maybe I _made_ it work that way on my machines, cn't
 remember).  I would like solid facts, rather than a religious/exagerated
 discussion.

I agree. I first ran into this on solaris. I *like* being able to shut
down subsystems in a consistent manner. This makes every bit as much
sense as having "make deinstall" work in the ports tree.

mike



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Cyrille Lefevre

Jonathan Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Quickie question:

[snip]

 To my (limited) understanding of this subject, it's not going to make hour
 long boot-ups.  It may increase shutdown time to do things, but, sometimes
 you need to properly shut things down.  If that were not the case, one
 could flip the power switch instead of typing shutdown..


what about reimplementing a fast{boot|halt} which don't runs thoses scripts
a shutdown and don't runs fsck at bootup ?

Cyrille.
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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Brandon D. Valentine

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote:

An Alpha my team manages with 1 TB of images on UFS takes 4 hours to 
fsck.

Sounds like a good enough reason to me to port the newer NetBSD LFS code
to FreeBSD.

Brandon D. Valentine
-- 
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"Truth suffers from too much analysis." -- Ancient Fremen Saying



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
Walter Campbe
ll writes:
   HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
   because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot
  
  An hour to boot? Boy... the only time I ever saw a machine take an hour to
  boot (which does not include the POST/memory check/BIOS screen) was a
  486SX/33 with 24MB of RAM running Windows NT 3.51 SP3. Of course it was
  running off of a 5 1/4" 400MB SCSI hard drive too!
 
 Try a Solaris 2.6 machine fsck'ing an array of 14 9.1 giggers

An Alpha my team manages with 1 TB of images on UFS takes 4 hours to 
fsck.


Regards,   Phone:  (250)387-8437
Cy Schubert  Fax:  (250)387-5766
Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team   Internet:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA
Province of BC





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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Richard Stanaford

--- Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 An Alpha my team manages with 1 TB of images on UFS takes 4 hours to 
 fsck.
 


Now that's a bit of thrashing, eh?   

Jordan, or anyone else who might know..  How long does it take "our" beast
(ftp.freebsd.org) to bring up 400+ GB of RAID?

-Richard



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Re: HEADS UP: /etc/rc.shutdown calls local scripts now

2000-07-06 Thread Travis Cole

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 06:53:49PM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote:
 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
 Walter Campbe
 ll writes:
HP/UX does something like this.  I find it rather useful, but that may be
because I have boxes that take almost an hour to boot
   
   An hour to boot? Boy... the only time I ever saw a machine take an hour to
   boot (which does not include the POST/memory check/BIOS screen) was a
   486SX/33 with 24MB of RAM running Windows NT 3.51 SP3. Of course it was
   running off of a 5 1/4" 400MB SCSI hard drive too!
  
  Try a Solaris 2.6 machine fsck'ing an array of 14 9.1 giggers
 
 An Alpha my team manages with 1 TB of images on UFS takes 4 hours to 
 fsck.

At work I've watched some of our BSD/OS 4.0.1 servers go down hard while
qmail had its queue totaly backed up.  And when the ufs (running
softupdates) 500MB /var got to fsck'ing it could take over 8 hours.
(and yes, we know something was not right there, the problem has since
been solved for the most part)

Not fun.

--
--Travis


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