Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 2:02 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: I use ci/co every single day to track changes to individual config files on individual machines. For simple things like ntp.conf, rc.conf, sysctl.conf, a simple 'ci -l xxx' is a trivial way to maintain local revision control. And sorry, what I left out was how having ci/co in the base is immensely helpful with the installer scripts I write. The server installation scripts I've cooked up use ci(1) to keep a record of changes made during the (possibly customized) installation process. This is impossible if there isn't a basic RCS in the base system. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 22:08, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 2:02 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: I use ci/co every single day to track changes to individual config files on individual machines. For simple things like ntp.conf, rc.conf, sysctl.conf, a simple 'ci -l xxx' is a trivial way to maintain local revision control. And sorry, what I left out was how having ci/co in the base is immensely helpful with the installer scripts I write. ... and probably screw up change control management for those who use rcs for that... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 2:08 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: And sorry, what I left out was how having ci/co in the base is immensely helpful with the installer scripts I write. The server installation scripts I've cooked up use ci(1) to keep a record of changes made during the (possibly customized) installation process. This is impossible if there isn't a basic RCS in the base system. Finally, an issue with missing SCCS in the base is for those of us who work in shops behind an air-gapped firewall. Install from ports is a non-starter. Our development systems will never be connected to the internet for a ports upgrade. In this environment, in-base RCS is a very useful tool. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 10/7/13 2:14 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 2:08 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: And sorry, what I left out was how having ci/co in the base is immensely helpful with the installer scripts I write. The server installation scripts I've cooked up use ci(1) to keep a record of changes made during the (possibly customized) installation process. This is impossible if there isn't a basic RCS in the base system. Finally, an issue with missing SCCS in the base is for those of us who work in shops behind an air-gapped firewall. Install from ports is a non-starter. Our development systems will never be connected to the internet for a ports upgrade. In this environment, in-base RCS is a very useful tool. ___ How do you do your initial install? -- Alfred Perlstein ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 22:15, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it has been announced, and is available as a port. So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
Hello, Igor. You wrote 8 октября 2013 г., 1:26:07: Well, it has been announced, and is available as a port. IM So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD IM decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute IM a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, IM and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? :) -- // Black Lion AKA Lev Serebryakov l...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 10:26:07PM +0100, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: On 7 October 2013 22:15, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it has been announced, and is available as a port. So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? Glen pgpxErieoaWDW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 22:28, Lev Serebryakov l...@freebsd.org wrote: svnlite? :) Thanks Lev Glen- it's something to explore albeit that screws up quite a lot of stuff on this end... Cheers, -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 Oct 2013, at 22:14, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: Install from ports is a non-starter. Our development systems will never be connected to the internet for a ports upgrade. In this environment, in-base RCS is a very useful tool. Why is install from packages any harder than installing the base system? If you need RCS, then put the pkg and rcs packages in your default installation image. Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? David ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
.. don't be surprised how many people do exactly this; then compile what handful of things they need from source in order to make a server. -adrian On 7 October 2013 14:53, David Chisnall thera...@freebsd.org wrote: On 7 Oct 2013, at 22:14, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: Install from ports is a non-starter. Our development systems will never be connected to the internet for a ports upgrade. In this environment, in-base RCS is a very useful tool. Why is install from packages any harder than installing the base system? If you need RCS, then put the pkg and rcs packages in your default installation image. Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? David ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Igor Mozolevsky i...@hybrid-lab.co.ukwrote: On 7 October 2013 22:28, Lev Serebryakov l...@freebsd.org wrote: svnlite? :) Thanks Lev Glen- it's something to explore albeit that screws up quite a lot of stuff on this end... Why does that screw up anything? Just include the RCS package on your install media, and add pkg_add /path/to/rcs.tgz or pkg add /path/to/rcs.txz to the end of your install script. 1 extra tarball, 1 extra line in your install script, and everything carries on as before. -- Freddie Cash fjwc...@gmail.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 2:53 PM, David Chisnall thera...@freebsd.org wrote: Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? We install from the base release ISO images burned on DVDs. We are physically air-gapped from the internet, none of the end users of the system have access to USB ports, and there are no electronic devices allowed into the development shop. We have a scheme for bringing in software from /usr/ports, but it is painful. And those ports can't necessarily walk on to all the systems in the shop. (I don't make the rules. Suffice to say the company is very paranoid about their code getting out into the wild.) Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) So if nuking RCS is a case of I don't use it, ... we do. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 03:45:23PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 2:53 PM, David Chisnall thera...@freebsd.org wrote: Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? We install from the base release ISO images burned on DVDs. We are physically air-gapped from the internet, none of the end users of the system have access to USB ports, and there are no electronic devices allowed into the development shop. We have a scheme for bringing in software from /usr/ports, but it is painful. And those ports can't necessarily walk on to all the systems in the shop. (I don't make the rules. Suffice to say the company is very paranoid about their code getting out into the wild.) Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) So if nuking RCS is a case of I don't use it, ... we do. Hey we could imoort SCCS instead. http://sccs.berlios.de - Diane -- - d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 3:45 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) To clarify, the git-enabled machines are a small isolated subset of the development machines. Then comes the test and q/a environment, where we (by contract) roll nothing beyond the base OS and our application software. There are other development shops dealing with the same restrictions. Most of them have to stay quiet about these requirements on account of the Homeland Security. They are all getting buggered over by the fallacy that everyone has a gigabit ethernet connection permanently wired into their ass ... ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
Hi! Then you and others should stand up and provide feedback like this far, far earlier in the development process. If everyone who communicates says x and no-one says anything about the other letters a-w, y, z, then we as developers don't really have a good cross-section of what people actually need. If you truely are doing things that require this level of service(s), then I encourage you to contact the FreeBSD Foundation and communicate exactly what your requirements are and why. They'll be able to steer things. Thanks! -adrian On 7 October 2013 16:00, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 3:45 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) To clarify, the git-enabled machines are a small isolated subset of the development machines. Then comes the test and q/a environment, where we (by contract) roll nothing beyond the base OS and our application software. There are other development shops dealing with the same restrictions. Most of them have to stay quiet about these requirements on account of the Homeland Security. They are all getting buggered over by the fallacy that everyone has a gigabit ethernet connection permanently wired into their ass ... ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 4:37 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Then you and others should stand up and provide feedback like this far, far earlier in the development process. So when was this first discussed? I've been on -current for over a decade. If I missed a prior discussion I truly apologize. --lyndon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 10/8/13 7:37 AM, Adrian Chadd wrote: Hi! Then you and others should stand up and provide feedback like this far, far earlier in the development process. Adiran this is the first I've heard of removing RCS. I would have screamed about it had I heard anything.. so now that I officially register my request for a backout can we have it back please? If everyone who communicates says x and no-one says anything about the other letters a-w, y, z, then we as developers don't really have a good cross-section of what people actually need. If you truely are doing things that require this level of service(s), then I encourage you to contact the FreeBSD Foundation and communicate exactly what your requirements are and why. They'll be able to steer things. Thanks! -adrian On 7 October 2013 16:00, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 3:45 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) To clarify, the git-enabled machines are a small isolated subset of the development machines. Then comes the test and q/a environment, where we (by contract) roll nothing beyond the base OS and our application software. There are other development shops dealing with the same restrictions. Most of them have to stay quiet about these requirements on account of the Homeland Security. They are all getting buggered over by the fallacy that everyone has a gigabit ethernet connection permanently wired into their ass ... ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
I've asked on IRC to figure out when this was first proposed. I'll see if it was announced anywhere or if Eitan snuck it in. -a On 7 October 2013 16:46, Julian Elischer jul...@freebsd.org wrote: On 10/8/13 7:37 AM, Adrian Chadd wrote: Hi! Then you and others should stand up and provide feedback like this far, far earlier in the development process. Adiran this is the first I've heard of removing RCS. I would have screamed about it had I heard anything.. so now that I officially register my request for a backout can we have it back please? If everyone who communicates says x and no-one says anything about the other letters a-w, y, z, then we as developers don't really have a good cross-section of what people actually need. If you truely are doing things that require this level of service(s), then I encourage you to contact the FreeBSD Foundation and communicate exactly what your requirements are and why. They'll be able to steer things. Thanks! -adrian On 7 October 2013 16:00, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 3:45 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) To clarify, the git-enabled machines are a small isolated subset of the development machines. Then comes the test and q/a environment, where we (by contract) roll nothing beyond the base OS and our application software. There are other development shops dealing with the same restrictions. Most of them have to stay quiet about these requirements on account of the Homeland Security. They are all getting buggered over by the fallacy that everyone has a gigabit ethernet connection permanently wired into their ass ... __**_ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/**mailman/listinfo/freebsd-**currenthttp://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscribe@** freebsd.org freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org __**_ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/**mailman/listinfo/freebsd-**currenthttp://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscribe@** freebsd.org freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 4:49 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: I've asked on IRC to figure out when this was first proposed. Adrian, something to keep in mind is that the majority of your code's users will never use your preferred communication media. So when you propose to remove a feature, absence of push-back means nothing, other than the lack of a communications channel with your 'customers'. We get this a lot with feature manipulation in nmh, and have learned to tread carefully as a result. This is also why the IETF defines work as being that which takes place on the mailing lists. Slow and dumb (in the media-rich sense), but everyone knows what's going on. In that light, if there is a rational argument for pulling RCS out of the base, propose it here on the -current list and let's all discuss it. --lyndon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 16:58, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 4:49 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: I've asked on IRC to figure out when this was first proposed. Adrian, something to keep in mind is that the majority of your code's users will never use your preferred communication media. So when you propose to remove a feature, absence of push-back means nothing, other than the lack of a communications channel with your 'customers'. Oh, I know it's an up-hill battle. But I honestly thought that this had been communicated on a list somewhere. It seems.. not. I don't know why. Gah. We get this a lot with feature manipulation in nmh, and have learned to tread carefully as a result. This is also why the IETF defines work as being that which takes place on the mailing lists. Slow and dumb (in the media-rich sense), but everyone knows what's going on. In that light, if there is a rational argument for pulling RCS out of the base, propose it here on the -current list and let's all discuss it. I still do suggest also getting a relationship with the FreeBSD foundation and airing grievances with them. They're interested in opening up new communication lines with companies who can provide this kind of feedback but don't necessarily want to be public about it. Thanks, -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 10/8/13 6:45 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 2:53 PM, David Chisnall thera...@freebsd.org wrote: Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? We install from the base release ISO images burned on DVDs. We are physically air-gapped from the internet, none of the end users of the system have access to USB ports, and there are no electronic devices allowed into the development shop. We have a scheme for bringing in software from /usr/ports, but it is painful. And those ports can't necessarily walk on to all the systems in the shop. (I don't make the rules. Suffice to say the company is very paranoid about their code getting out into the wild.) Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) So if nuking RCS is a case of I don't use it, ... we do. +1 ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 8 October 2013 01:00, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: [snip] Oh, I know it's an up-hill battle. But I honestly thought that this had been communicated on a list somewhere. It seems.. not. I don't know why. Gah. It's been communicated at Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:43:21 -0400, but that doesn't meed there's been any discussion, let alone any consensus reached- it was communicated as an already made decision... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
Glen Barber wrote this message on Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 17:29 -0400: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 10:26:07PM +0100, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: On 7 October 2013 22:15, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it has been announced, and is available as a port. So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? cd /etc svnliteadmin create svn svnlite co file:///etc/svn . svnlite add rc.conf svnlite commit rc.conf instead of: cd /etc ci rc.conf really? -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 10/8/13 5:29 AM, Glen Barber wrote: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 10:26:07PM +0100, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: On 7 October 2013 22:15, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it has been announced, and is available as a port. So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? Glen fail ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:36:42PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? cd /etc svnliteadmin create svn svnlite co file:///etc/svn . svnlite add rc.conf svnlite commit rc.conf instead of: cd /etc ci rc.conf really? No, not really. # mkdir local # svnadmin create ./local # svn import /etc file:///$PWD/local Glen pgpPu8g8MLF8B.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 5:40 PM, Julian Elischer jul...@freebsd.org wrote: svnlite? fail I won't go that far, immediately. But I need a tool that lets me migrate the history of my RCS files to the new regime. And the new tools(s) *must* be part of the base system. (Migration tools included.) And the new scheme should provide something as simple as 'ci -l foo'. I'm not convinced svn does that. --lyndon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
Glen Barber wrote this message on Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 20:42 -0400: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:36:42PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? cd /etc svnliteadmin create svn svnlite co file:///etc/svn . svnlite add rc.conf svnlite commit rc.conf instead of: cd /etc ci rc.conf really? No, not really. # mkdir local # svnadmin create ./local # svn import /etc file:///$PWD/local besides the s/svn/svnlite/ you forgot... It doesn't work... Sure it imports all of my /etc, but doesn't let me commit my changes to rc.conf: # svnlite commit rc.conf svn: E155007: '/etc/rc.conf' is not a working copy Plus, I was quite reasured that svn isn't smart enough to realize that a path might be a file: url relative to the current working directory... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, 2013-10-07 at 16:49 -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: I've asked on IRC to figure out when this was first proposed. I'll see if it was announced anywhere or if Eitan snuck it in. -a It was mentioned briefly on stable@ http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069252.html And discussed at greater length in the context of removing cvs on arch@ http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/012975.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013077.html I have not re-read those threads to see just how much of the discussion involved rcs, I just spot-checked a few and confirmed my memory that it showed up in some of the messages there. -- Ian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Tue, 8 Oct 2013, Julian Elischer wrote: Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? We install from the base release ISO images burned on DVDs. We are physically air-gapped from the internet, none of the end users of the system have access to USB ports, and there are no electronic devices allowed into the development shop. We have a scheme for bringing in software from /usr/ports, but it is painful. And those ports can't necessarily walk on to all the systems in the shop. (I don't make the rules. Suffice to say the company is very paranoid about their code getting out into the wild.) Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) So if nuking RCS is a case of I don't use it, ... we do. +1 Moreover, IIRC, some key files in FreeBSD own cluster had been archived by RCS... -- Sincerely, D.Marck [DM5020, MCK-RIPE, DM3-RIPN] [ FreeBSD committer: ma...@freebsd.org ] *** Dmitry Morozovsky --- D.Marck --- Wild Woozle --- ma...@rinet.ru *** ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:54:23PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: No, not really. # mkdir local # svnadmin create ./local # svn import /etc file:///$PWD/local besides the s/svn/svnlite/ you forgot... It doesn't work... Sure it WITH_SVN in src.conf will install svnlite as svn. imports all of my /etc, but doesn't let me commit my changes to rc.conf: # svnlite commit rc.conf svn: E155007: '/etc/rc.conf' is not a working copy Sure it does. gjb@nucleus:~/svn % mkdir local gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svnadmin create ./local gjb@nucleus:~/svn % cp -rp /usr/local/etc/rc.d fakelocaletc gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn import ./fakelocaletc file:///$PWD/local -m Initial import. gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn co --force file:///$PWD/local fakelocaletc Checked out revision 1. gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn stat !$ svn stat fakelocaletc gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn info fakelocaletc Path: fakelocaletc Working Copy Root Path: /usr/home/gjb/svn/fakelocaletc URL: file:///home/gjb/svn/local Relative URL: ^/ Plus, I was quite reasured that svn isn't smart enough to realize that a path might be a file: url relative to the current working directory... I don't know what you mean by this. Glen pgp_UEgaOck0J.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: rcs is gone?
On 8 October 2013 01:58, Ian Lepore i...@freebsd.org wrote: On Mon, 2013-10-07 at 16:49 -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: I've asked on IRC to figure out when this was first proposed. I'll see if it was announced anywhere or if Eitan snuck it in. -a It was mentioned briefly on stable@ http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069252.html And discussed at greater length in the context of removing cvs on arch@ http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/012975.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013077.html I have not re-read those threads to see just how much of the discussion involved rcs, I just spot-checked a few and confirmed my memory that it showed up in some of the messages there. Hold on a SECOND! Those messages had a subject line of Removing CVS from base, if one is not affected by that why on earth would one think that that discussion might involve RCS??? Perhaps I am different, but I really do lack telepathic abilities... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 8 October 2013 01:59, Glen Barber g...@freebsd.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:54:23PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: [snip] Plus, I was quite reasured that svn isn't smart enough to realize that a path might be a file: url relative to the current working directory... I don't know what you mean by this. I think he means file://./file.conf -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 5:58 PM, Ian Lepore i...@freebsd.org wrote: I have not re-read those threads to see just how much of the discussion involved rcs, I just spot-checked a few and confirmed my memory that it showed up in some of the messages there. I don't see any discussion as to why the code (CVS, in this case) *needs* to be removed. What, in the current builds of 10.x, is broken by leaving RCS/CVS in place? And what, as 10.x moves forward towards a public release, will be broken by leaving this code in the base? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 02:03:44AM +0100, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: On 8 October 2013 01:59, Glen Barber g...@freebsd.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:54:23PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: [snip] Plus, I was quite reasured that svn isn't smart enough to realize that a path might be a file: url relative to the current working directory... I don't know what you mean by this. I think he means file://./file.conf If so, that does not work. That is why I used 'file:///$PWD/'. Glen pgp_5YVKKBMvQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: rcs is gone?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 10/07/13 17:42, Glen Barber wrote: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:36:42PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? svnlite? cd /etc svnliteadmin create svn svnlite co file:///etc/svn . svnlite add rc.conf svnlite commit rc.conf instead of: cd /etc ci rc.conf really? No, not really. # mkdir local # svnadmin create ./local # svn import /etc file:///$PWD/local There is a feature that is lacking from svn: the permissions is not quite tightened up. With RCS, for instance, a mode 600 file would result in a mode 400 ,v file. With subversion, everything is dependent on the current user's umask. So let's say the root checks in master.passwd, with RCS, the resulting ,v file would be mode 400 but with svn, the local cached copy and the file in the repository would be both world readable. Of course, this can be worked around by chmod'ing all the toplevel directories to 700 or group accessible but it's not quite convenient and can be easily overlooked. However, even when I use RCS pretty often, I don't think it's a good idea to keep it in base system (actually I am supportive in removing it from the base). The version shipped with base was not touched for many years and shipping it with base makes it hard to use a newer version from ports. Cheers, - -- Xin LI delp...@delphij.nethttps://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (FreeBSD) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJSU1y2AAoJEJW2GBstM+nszXkQAKmaSZVELYkQY0i6SqeWXRAd gOONugSTFq1jMS0fd7LVkrrcGsFa1VpMOf4FctS6iWK1cY8ZJhqYizsu4Qb9eP5e DciRRtcB337VX3iBAN9vJEgLYiyj7X6RlvspGVJW00QaJFmgrbLuMjkFGxjs/PYN OVDaIEZCW7FmdHXSbsX7nTiWkWkh/UoMPAzdNNwb+ICKrQB6iWscWBOVQWhufSQZ mEJr/3exbu9We9kBtk8Qa9pnHYw5Xao8jqNyESORRtDnrznK14Dyc2jdr61Bnlc6 nRGioYhViioVt6x3FekKszZ5/zNr39/Wm+Xv/RNLbhB8SlyEcXjSTfIGByostI2B r+GibrjOiIGPwntNQcvbm2gwaDaSoWo/xKCeXPoOAViolIALUTkxKlZ7h9qYuoZp h4rxgENtJlAdKH1SNrSPAaMPnyTzD5GBz2VWN9QGo2TPyxC4NywF/tN0Hz/WEcRN ruEQ+E9bG0JiiffIo1OJQLeaLp2yTStqgPJG9jYg2e7yfK+Wa66U40sWpWhdIvPq K5xDtPb01Q91V+J16V++qJPu9uq4rnO7Rk5Ak1vFGRXYuvPHpMovnKKSDO9SaGb2 DXIfTDl4rWTn/WV9o0lriZJyqP31z4ABN47nMc0/2b2+Z1tKLwbaJ5btOHkxFBL3 dJUp+dP1IeZCeESiVBlL =6X09 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 10/8/13 9:05 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 5:58 PM, Ian Lepore i...@freebsd.org wrote: I have not re-read those threads to see just how much of the discussion involved rcs, I just spot-checked a few and confirmed my memory that it showed up in some of the messages there. I don't see any discussion as to why the code (CVS, in this case) *needs* to be removed. What, in the current builds of 10.x, is broken by leaving RCS/CVS in place? And what, as 10.x moves forward towards a public release, will be broken by leaving this code in the base? I have less of a problem with replacing CVS with svnlite than I have with removing RCS. After all CVS's main reason for being in the system has switched to svnlite. And if you are using CVS yourself for other developement, you are probbaly further on with installing a system and are already installing other packages. that's not the case with RCS. I know that people use it as part of their install procedure. Plus RCS is used within other tools. e.g. patch etc. It's also a REALLY SMALL utility, suitable for embedding into scripts etc. (the Unix way(TM)) I consider it a base utility. It does a simple operation on a file. the discussion in arch was A YEAR AGO, was hidden under a differnet title, and DID NOT RESULT in a clear mandate to remove RCS. Please put it back, and inthe mena while while we discuss it properly this time, please revert the commit (official request.. as described in the group rules). ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Julian Elischer jul...@freebsd.org wrote: On 10/8/13 9:05 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 5:58 PM, Ian Lepore i...@freebsd.org wrote: I have not re-read those threads to see just how much of the discussion involved rcs, I just spot-checked a few and confirmed my memory that it showed up in some of the messages there. I don't see any discussion as to why the code (CVS, in this case) *needs* to be removed. What, in the current builds of 10.x, is broken by leaving RCS/CVS in place? And what, as 10.x moves forward towards a public release, will be broken by leaving this code in the base? I have less of a problem with replacing CVS with svnlite than I have with removing RCS. After all CVS's main reason for being in the system has switched to svnlite. And if you are using CVS yourself for other developement, you are probbaly further on with installing a system and are already installing other packages. that's not the case with RCS. I know that people use it as part of their install procedure. Plus RCS is used within other tools. e.g. patch etc. It's also a REALLY SMALL utility, suitable for embedding into scripts etc. (the Unix way(TM)) I consider it a base utility. It does a simple operation on a file. the discussion in arch was A YEAR AGO, was hidden under a differnet title, and DID NOT RESULT in a clear mandate to remove RCS. Please put it back, and inthe mena while while we discuss it properly this time, please revert the commit (official request.. as described in the group rules). I would like to see RCS remain in base as well. Many enterprise distro still ship it by default too. There is no compelling reason to remove it. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.comwrote: I would like to see RCS remain in base as well. Many enterprise distro still ship it by default too. There is no compelling reason to remove it. I sort of retract that statement. I thought the base RCS was already OpenRCS. I support the inclusion of OpenRCS. That functionality is very useful and many admins are used to having it present. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 10/07/13 18:37, Adam Vande More wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.comwrote: I would like to see RCS remain in base as well. Many enterprise distro still ship it by default too. There is no compelling reason to remove it. I sort of retract that statement. I thought the base RCS was already OpenRCS. I support the inclusion of OpenRCS. That functionality is very useful and many admins are used to having it present. I thought about this a few years ago but figured out that OpenRCS have many incompatibilities with GNU RCS (and fails GNU RCS regression tests) so if we do it, someone has to sit down and make sure the replacement have at least equal quality. Cheers, - -- Xin LI delp...@delphij.nethttps://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (FreeBSD) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJSU2OFAAoJEJW2GBstM+nskxIQAJtRPwPA2S6FIYyPTsKbVgfE yYI0+yh1MBPssL0OYGLOC4r4Ot/dleCAMJMDSm/yZL4oj2ewLU3TCCq+0g6nvdAn 32ElrfYXKDYLWXManTx6ZUO4EsEPWQTyd9oYQA7x0yWJus4FirR1jUJ0PqHS5TXJ BcDZFO+BAN70wgR0NJZqUjXML+Z/u7lXEGwDZ27PurGtrQUhQ+QpauPTYQxAqkT+ X0GqxRDwt02zDUWo3zitDoMUqRxWXB4AzOaVDhbs8B2aLIIhNHOYjGytE0gVGOb+ GitDib13B5zEFYb+UtTOKv5dfvUMNNa8XIUAX4zD9uNP3ckEy5ZzvS65+n4ClInX 2eyeaVznnntTSNmjzCZSTKYXhxwmUSyeBQWTGVZk/o+m9qeFMv3cHGSXND6WWqJ2 2IYhX1i6Gj1gllIAIJ6PZ9/fScMz7GcZC9940xfnQbgF61A2+Rxrv/B44w6l/xeM sbLBomqozJXJ1d+9qo1x7tgl6EP5grZQGtSdLBlao936/PhzCCgwoHNkMiypl0MD jTlDVyvjUidfavL3rbhmf92x0ih+yNfoNFX5T42mOKEyUesV3uFqypVoAEn9Q9Q1 m7NTunH1t2gJ2EK/mckqU+V5pVXeK4Tfj+QKLddfTzGZyI0VIqsqlm8/x0mXSByd casIsVahiDmGxwztBljE =nH+R -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On 2013-10-07, at 6:05 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg lyn...@orthanc.ca wrote: I don't see any discussion as to why the code (CVS, in this case) *needs* to be removed. My stupidity: I meant RCS, not CVS. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
Glen Barber wrote this message on Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 20:59 -0400: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:54:23PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: No, not really. # mkdir local # svnadmin create ./local # svn import /etc file:///$PWD/local besides the s/svn/svnlite/ you forgot... It doesn't work... Sure it WITH_SVN in src.conf will install svnlite as svn. imports all of my /etc, but doesn't let me commit my changes to rc.conf: # svnlite commit rc.conf svn: E155007: '/etc/rc.conf' is not a working copy Sure it does. gjb@nucleus:~/svn % mkdir local gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svnadmin create ./local gjb@nucleus:~/svn % cp -rp /usr/local/etc/rc.d fakelocaletc gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn import ./fakelocaletc file:///$PWD/local -m Initial import. gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn co --force file:///$PWD/local fakelocaletc This is the step you forgot to include previously... So, it's still a multistep process before you can revision control the files and clearly not simple since we already have two different ways of doing it... I wouldn't have even thought about the permission issue that someone else brought up... Checked out revision 1. gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn stat !$ svn stat fakelocaletc gjb@nucleus:~/svn % svn info fakelocaletc Path: fakelocaletc Working Copy Root Path: /usr/home/gjb/svn/fakelocaletc URL: file:///home/gjb/svn/local Relative URL: ^/ Plus, I was quite reasured that svn isn't smart enough to realize that a path might be a file: url relative to the current working directory... I don't know what you mean by this. svn didn't bother trying to figure out if the relative path (or even absolute path) has a valid repo.. it just decided, nope, not a URL, I'll quit now, even though it could have been smart... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: rcs is gone?
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Diane Bruce d...@db.net wrote: On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 03:45:23PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On 2013-10-07, at 2:53 PM, David Chisnall thera...@freebsd.org wrote: Or do you really only run the base OS and no other software on your systems, without any of your own code or any customisation? We install from the base release ISO images burned on DVDs. We are physically air-gapped from the internet, none of the end users of the system have access to USB ports, and there are no electronic devices allowed into the development shop. We have a scheme for bringing in software from /usr/ports, but it is painful. And those ports can't necessarily walk on to all the systems in the shop. (I don't make the rules. Suffice to say the company is very paranoid about their code getting out into the wild.) Having RCS in the base system is very useful. We use it to track changes to bits of /etc on the machines where we don't do wholesale customizations. (Those ones get git, but they also get an install of /usr/ports with a fully populated /usr/ports/distfiles.) So if nuking RCS is a case of I don't use it, ... we do. Hey we could imoort SCCS instead. http://sccs.berlios.de - Diane -- - d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db ___ This also contains GPL parts as specified in COPYING within ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily/schily-2013-07-29.tar.bz2 Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
