Re: comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:55:16 -0800 Rui Paulo rpa...@me.com wrote On Nov 13, 2014, at 17:40, Luigi Rizzo ri...@iet.unipi.it wrote: But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. I refrained from voicing my opinion while the call for help was going on, but I completely agree that the target age of this Google initiative is inadequate to FreeBSD. The target population is 13 years to 17 years old and I cannot even imagine a 13 year old knowing what FreeBSD is. I'm not sure we should participate in Code In ever again and perhaps we should focus our efforts on Summer of Code only. @Luigi Very insightful. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. :) @Rui Would tasks in re, or Mk/ be too far off base? --Chris -- Rui Paulo ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On 11/17/14, 6:55 AM, Chris H wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:55:16 -0800 Rui Paulo rpa...@me.com wrote On Nov 13, 2014, at 17:40, Luigi Rizzo ri...@iet.unipi.it wrote: But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. I refrained from voicing my opinion while the call for help was going on, but I completely agree that the target age of this Google initiative is inadequate to FreeBSD. The target population is 13 years to 17 years old and I cannot even imagine a 13 year old knowing what FreeBSD is. I'm not sure we should participate in Code In ever again and perhaps we should focus our efforts on Summer of Code only. @Luigi Very insightful. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. :) @Rui Would tasks in re, or Mk/ be too far off base? [[ cc'd Kris ]] Maybe PCBSD has some ideas for code-in? It's a bit easier on newbies than FreeBSD. Mind you, I was using FreeBSD at 19 years old (would have used it earlier if I'd know about it), coding in assembler at 14... so there are people out there. I just think for it to be something people will want to do it's going to be less edit these text files to improve process and more make dancing daemons happen on the console. -Alfred ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 07:55:16PM -0800, Rui Paulo wrote: On Nov 13, 2014, at 17:40, Luigi Rizzo ri...@iet.unipi.it wrote: But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. I refrained from voicing my opinion while the call for help was going on, but I completely agree that the target age of this Google initiative is inadequate to FreeBSD. The target population is 13 years to 17 years old and I cannot even imagine a 13 year old knowing what FreeBSD is. ...and yet there was pat@ becoming a ports committer at the age of 16 and chris@ becoming a docs committer at the age of 14 :) I think hmp@, alepulver@, issyl0@ and jmallett@ were pretty young when they joined, too. Just an observation, I know that one or two isolated cases do not prove a point :) G'luck, Peter -- Peter Pentchev r...@ringlet.net r...@freebsd.org p.penc...@storpool.com PGP key:http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115 C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 3:38 AM, Mark Saad nones...@longcount.org wrote: On Nov 14, 2014, at 4:27 AM, Peter Pentchev r...@ringlet.net wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 07:55:16PM -0800, Rui Paulo wrote: On Nov 13, 2014, at 17:40, Luigi Rizzo ri...@iet.unipi.it wrote: But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. I have a few ideas for younger and or less experienced google code in people 1. Analyze the CD/USB install process . Does the actual process match the guide and or general docs . 2. Analyze / comment on the automated install process jumpstart . Does the guide and general docs match the actual process . 3. Test the virtual machine images as vagrant box images , and create vagrant box images from the official vm images . 4. Create a script for the installer bsd install to use glabel to label gparts slices as /dev/label/$NAME 5. Test the ami images , again can the docs be improved are they accurate . The Now let me preface the docs tasks , by no means am I saying that the docs team has made lots of mistakes and their work needs to be rechecked . The tasks are small enough that most high school aged people could grasp the issue, with out any prior experience in BSD world . Rechecking the docs is always a good idea . They should allow the code in members to make some good contributions ; and maybe even some good improvements . I refrained from voicing my opinion while the call for help was going on, but I completely agree that the target age of this Google initiative is inadequate to FreeBSD. The target population is 13 years to 17 years old and I cannot even imagine a 13 year old knowing what FreeBSD is. ...and yet there was pat@ becoming a ports committer at the age of 16 and chris@ becoming a docs committer at the age of 14 :) I think hmp@, alepulver@, issyl0@ and jmallett@ were pretty young when they joined, too. Just an observation, I know that one or two isolated cases do not prove a point :) G'luck, Peter -- Peter Pentchev r...@ringlet.net r...@freebsd.org p.penc...@storpool.com PGP key:http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115 C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13 Mark saad | mark.s...@longcount.org One important program class for the less experienced people ( as users and programmers ) would be the following : (1) For the command line operating system programs , mostly it is necessary to give parameters on command line . For example : $ ifconfig displays the NIC information . To apply some operations , it is necessary to give parameters : $ ifconfig -... ... ... ... To give these parameters even by using man pages are very difficult even for the experienced users . Task : By using for selected OS programs , write a routine to the following : When a user enters only program name , display a form to get parameters for execution ( this requires some changes to programs doing operations just by giving its name by specifying a parameter for such cases ) in such a way that get parameters in an order by supplying form parts with respect to previously given parameter values , i.e. , do not present all of the items , let the user some values , and smash the user that such parameters are given incorrectly . Manual pages may be used , but sometimes it is necessary to read the source code of the program to isolate error cases and dependencies . (2) Some programs may use many parameters and every time giving them as command line parameters or by filling forms may not be a very convenient way . By using Expat libraries ( or any other suitable library ) , write a routine for a selected command line program to enter parameters from an XML file with the following structure : $ program_name @XML_parameters file_name Such a result may be obtained by using scripts for executing the programs with specific parameters , but using the above structure may be more convenient usage and they may be used in testing also more easily because some files may be output of other programs . (3) Many OS programs are given their outputs in an arbitrary text form . For automated tests , or input to other programs , these outputs are very difficult to use . For selected OS programs , give all of the output in XML ( or any other selected structured form ) .which they can be processed by using Expat library . To process these outputs , also write a routine by using Expat library to load it into a tree . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to
Re: comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On Nov 13, 2014, at 17:40, Luigi Rizzo ri...@iet.unipi.it wrote: But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. I refrained from voicing my opinion while the call for help was going on, but I completely agree that the target age of this Google initiative is inadequate to FreeBSD. The target population is 13 years to 17 years old and I cannot even imagine a 13 year old knowing what FreeBSD is. I'm not sure we should participate in Code In ever again and perhaps we should focus our efforts on Summer of Code only. -- Rui Paulo ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On Nov 14, 2014, at 4:27 AM, Peter Pentchev r...@ringlet.net wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 07:55:16PM -0800, Rui Paulo wrote: On Nov 13, 2014, at 17:40, Luigi Rizzo ri...@iet.unipi.it wrote: But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. I have a few ideas for younger and or less experienced google code in people 1. Analyze the CD/USB install process . Does the actual process match the guide and or general docs . 2. Analyze / comment on the automated install process jumpstart . Does the guide and general docs match the actual process . 3. Test the virtual machine images as vagrant box images , and create vagrant box images from the official vm images . 4. Create a script for the installer bsd install to use glabel to label gparts slices as /dev/label/$NAME 5. Test the ami images , again can the docs be improved are they accurate . The Now let me preface the docs tasks , by no means am I saying that the docs team has made lots of mistakes and their work needs to be rechecked . The tasks are small enough that most high school aged people could grasp the issue, with out any prior experience in BSD world . Rechecking the docs is always a good idea . They should allow the code in members to make some good contributions ; and maybe even some good improvements . I refrained from voicing my opinion while the call for help was going on, but I completely agree that the target age of this Google initiative is inadequate to FreeBSD. The target population is 13 years to 17 years old and I cannot even imagine a 13 year old knowing what FreeBSD is. ...and yet there was pat@ becoming a ports committer at the age of 16 and chris@ becoming a docs committer at the age of 14 :) I think hmp@, alepulver@, issyl0@ and jmallett@ were pretty young when they joined, too. Just an observation, I know that one or two isolated cases do not prove a point :) G'luck, Peter -- Peter Pentchev r...@ringlet.net r...@freebsd.org p.penc...@storpool.com PGP key:http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115 C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13 Mark saad | mark.s...@longcount.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
comments on code-in tasks for FreeBSD (Re: FreeBSD + Google Code-In 2014 = we need ideas.)
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Wojciech A. Koszek wkos...@freebsd.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 01:56:27PM -0700, Alan Somers wrote: On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 8:59 PM, Wojciech A. Koszek wkos...@freebsd.org wrote: Hello, BTW, FYI: We didn't make it this year. Judging by the GSoC 2014 Reunion, there is a lot of seasoned Orgs which treat GCIN very seriously, so I think if we plan to participate, it'll be a lot of effort to compete with them Anyway: thanks for the tasks which were submitted. I will put them in Wiki for the reference, hi, i meant to send this email before but given the outcome this seems a good time to prepare for next year. I have been looking at tasks to submit (especially coding, but not just those) and looking at other organisations who participated in past years, i believe that FreeBSD (with its C- and kernel- centric environment) is a poor match for code-in, specifically due to the young age and predictable lack of expertise of most of the participants, and the small size of the tasks. In my view, most of the documentation tasks listed in the wiki https://wiki.freebsd.org/GoogleCodeIn/2014Tasks are not approachable by students -- they require experience and knowledge of compilers, subsystems and development techniques that are unlikely to exist for teenagers. When it comes to programming tasks, again the list has entries simply beyond the ability of the students. First three tasks: static analysis for kernel locking, static analysis of kernel conventions, profile libc++. These are important tasks, but they just do not belong here. As a rule of thumb i would say that anything that is in the list should not take more than 2-3 hours/half a day to an experienced developer, be accompanied by a detailed description on what to do and how, and by a commitment from the mentor to review it. Also, if we want to suggest some coding task, it is important that we can give students a preloaded OS image with all the tools and repos they may need for their work, otherwise they end up spending a lot of time setting up the environment and possibly making mistakes in the process that prevent a correct completion of the work. Sure we ship with compilers and make, but we miss svn/git, an embedded snapshot of source and ports tree, and now that we can, also a bhyve or qemu example to help them testing kernels. Finally, we should shift the approach from something we need to something can be a useful exercise for the students even if it replicates features that already exist in the OS. That might perhaps lead to smaller, better and easier to define tasks with a better chance to be completed. Lacking any better idea (which I don't have because as i said i think FreeBSD just is not a good match for this competition), we could take some specific bug reports, and provide details and hints for solutions. But please nuke the current list -- it is completely inadequate for the code-in candidates and misleading for whoever wants to suggest new tasks. Again i am not saying that the projects suggested there are not important, just belong somewhere else e.g. gsoc. cheers luigi Wojciech This year we'd like to participate in the Google Code-In 2014. This is Google Summer of Code, but for younger people: age range is 13--17. If you're one of them, we highly encourage you to apply! ***This year coding tasks are possible, so feel free to add those*** To submit idea which you'd like to see done in GCI, visit: http://bit.ly/FreeBSD_GCIN2014 Regardless of who you are, please use the form to submit ideas. Don't add stuff via Wiki, since this year we'll do direct import of all ideas from Google Forms. To see tasks from previous year that are yet to be copied to Google Forms: https://wiki.freebsd.org/GoogleCodeIn/2014Tasks Thanks to GCI in the previous years, we gained one more FreeBSD developer. We'd like to partcipate this year too. We need: 1) ideas. How about converting various utility functions to use libxo? I think that's within the grasp of a high-schooler. 2) mentors 3) participants. Just like in previous years we'll decide whether we're ready. Deadlines: --- November 12, 2014 - The 10-12 Mentoring organizations are announced for Google Code-in 2014 and the orgs can start entering their tasks into the Google system (the tasks will not be viewable to students until the contest opens on Dec 1). December 1, 2014 17:00 UTC - Google Code-in 2014 contest opens for students January 19, 2015 17:00 UTC - Google Code-in 2014 student work ends --- MORE INFO: [0] http://www.google-melange.com/gci/homepage/google/gci2014 [1] gci-ment...@googlegroups.com [2]
