Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

I'm glad we are discussing specific technical issues now. Perhaps we should move this discussion to freebsd-i18n once it's created? You, Kazutaka YOKOTA, were spotted writing this on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:13:14PM +0900: > > >I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and t

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:18:08PM -0700: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > > > Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different > > issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. > > I agree with this comple

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

>On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > >> Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different >> issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. > > I agree with this completely. The question is, where? I didn't say this mailing list is not suitable for such disc

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different > issue which, I think, should be discussed separately. I agree with this completely. The question is, where? -- Alex -

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

>I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the >vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes: > >a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather >than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should >great

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 5:30 PM -0400 4/5/00, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >Marco van de Voort, wrote on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100: > > > > I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts > > that of UNICODE support are we thinking of? > >I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard d

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was > > actually used in Russia? > > > > ISO 8859-5. > > It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000 > (those of them not sophisticated enough to select th

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Nikolai Saoukh wrote: > > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep > > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through > > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb > > terminals -- and the last ment

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was > actually used in Russia? > > ISO 8859-5. It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000 (those of them not sophisticated enough to sel

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was > actually used in Russia? > > ISO 8859-5. > > And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups, > for russian Unix users and most of Russian-la

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote: > > without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes. > > Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages. > If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd > know why (about five radically d

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Anatoly Vorobey writes: : a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently : supported by FreeBSD, but can be. Not supported by sc, but I believe the pcvt does support it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great > > >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private > > >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? > > > > Absurd! The pr

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great > >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private > >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? > > Absurd! The private use area

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life -- > >"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been > >achieved yet, but Communist Party

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life -- >"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been >achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many >similarities. Give

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:30:22PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset? Absurd! The private use

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since > it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't > been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding > into areas where *no* previous character sets

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > the most inclusive one in existence. > > > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related > > problems, as a replacement of language/charset l

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Jason wrote: > > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > > sufficient, > > What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"? > Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our > software to UNIC

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

> People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > sufficient, What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"? Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenl

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:30:38PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of >the issues involved, etc. Yes, you clearly do. :) > However I am neither a committer nor a >member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea, >m

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:04PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently >supported by FreeBSD, but can be. > >b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes >used as if they were text modes Good points. Somehow I was

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Alex Belits <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > sufficient, Linguists are interested in languages, not in computer character set issues. They are just

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Alex Belits <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be > > the most inclusive one in existence. > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all langua

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

G. Adam Stanislav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the > >console is a Good Thing(TM). > > I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations. > The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding)

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, Marco van de Voort, were spotted writing this on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100: > > > I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get > UNICODE support are we thinking of? I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the vga

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, G. Adam Stanislav, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:59:55PM -0500: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the > >console is a Good Thing(TM). > > I don't see how it would

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 10:10 AM -0700 4/5/00, Alex Belits wrote: >On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, > > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of > > > typesetting. > > > > But we're *not* talking a

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: | On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: | | > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, | > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of | > > typesetting. | > | > But we're *not* talking abo

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient, > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of > > typesetting. > > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual > text ha

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get UNICODE support are we thinking of? Marco van de Voort ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body o

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:34:55PM -0700: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > > > > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, > > > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

I wrote: > I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. > I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and > -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area I just got a note from our dear postmaster that freebsd-i18n will be created within the next

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Taavi Talvik wrote: > > the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we > > know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?". > > Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India > together are >2 billion possible use

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > > I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO* > > options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even > > if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothin

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it > >is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related > >problems, as a replacement of lang

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being > sufficient, and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I agree that > local

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it >is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related >problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure >and as the neces

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Regardless of how you feel about Unicode--whatever, just think of how horribly terrible things would be if people actually had to *speak* to one another. gah, the torture. ;-) Dan gh > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's > >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print > >characters, and make multilingual "we

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print >characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much >flawed as stand

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the >console is a Good Thing(TM). I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations. The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bi

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I don't want to be misunderstood as the opponent of all things Unicode >-- as I have said, its support is useful. However I oppose: > >1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best >possible way to handle multilin

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, > > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of > > Russian sentences? > > > > I don't think so. > > This is what multipart format exis

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of > Russian sentences? > > I don't think so. This is what multipart format exists for --

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO* > options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even > if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing. The existing "market" of multilingual appli

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 11:03:58AM -0700: > > On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English > > >and Russian text without

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 5:08 PM +0300 4/4/00, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > ... I have found myself in the need to write in English, >Modern Greek (one accent), and Ancient Greek (many accents). This >is not possible using 8-bit fonts, since the glyphs for the accented >ancient greek alone are much more than 128. > >Of

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from > > > having Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It > > > isn't me for sure > > > > Everyone who works w

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 1:17 AM +1000 4/5/00, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote: > > > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered > > > "I will" -- everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it > > > will benefit someone else. > > > > I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already >

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Alex Belits <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- I WILL. I want to be able to mention Henry Charri{e grave}re and Stanis{l stroke}aw Lem in a single document and spell those names correctly. Actually, that's a real world example

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 22:51 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be > >useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate > >as the base of format used in real-life applications

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English > >and Russian text without Unicode. > > Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in > English

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote: | On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: | | > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having | > >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure | > | > Everyone who works with multilingual documents.

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

> > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" -- > >everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone > >else. > > I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already because > I did some work and it is in the ports. OK, I didn

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 22:51 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be >useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate >as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and >communications. Oh, I think it's gre

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700: > > >-- I am Russian. > > > > So? > > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Noone is trying to force UTF-8 on you. In fact, userland support of UTF-8 can (and should IMHO) be based around an environme

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0700: > On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > > > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having > Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8)

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Alex Belits wrote: > > Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8: > > "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO > > 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding > > scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (publish

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English >and Russian text without Unicode. Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There i

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having > >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure > > Everyone who works with multilingual documents. I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documen

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 15:23 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote: >On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > >> Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure Everyone who wo

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure -- I am Russian. -- Alex

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote: > On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. > | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and > | -questions, and it has become something of a spec

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Nik Clayton wrote: | On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote: | > On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: | > | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. | > | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and | > |

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 11:37 03-04-2000 -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote: >On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > >| I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. >| I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and >| -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue. | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and | -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since | most people appear to be served well by the existin

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Anatoly Vorobey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What do you think? For what it's worth (me not being a committer and generally not on the productive side of things), I morally support this idea. To push certain buttons: what you are suggesting is to bring syscons up to what the Linux console alrea

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 03:39:08AM +, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > I wonder how useful it would be to teach syscons/kbd to handle Unicode. No replies so far; let me try again. I was not trying to convey the attitude "let it be done" in my message; I was rather hoping for a reply of a "this would

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 06:34:19PM +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > MikeM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? > > It has crossed my mind... > > > I think that it is inevitable that eventually FreeBSD > > will *need* to support unicode if it wa

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > (Earlier versions of) these have been submitted in PRs #15545 and > #15840, but for some reason they have never been committed. > don't give up. It's not immediatly who is responsible for this, but it's something that is generally considered an important futur

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

MikeM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? It has crossed my mind... > I think that it is inevitable that eventually FreeBSD > will *need* to support unicode if it wants to continue > as a viable operating system in the future. Probably. The demand fo

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

At 11:47 20-03-2000 -0800, MikeM wrote: >Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? Certainly. >Is it possible, or is it totally out of the question? > >What would it require? > >Is there any way of implementing partial support, >working in stages, untill it is fully supported? I worked

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote: > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? > Depends on what you mean by 'Unicode support'. If you use a suitable encoding (UTF-8?) everything should work, only it might look strange, as userland doesn't support it. It is largely a 'application spac

Unicode on FreeBSD

Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD? I think that it is inevitable that eventually FreeBSD will *need* to support unicode if it wants to continue as a viable operating system in the future. This means that it probably will need to be modified from the ground up. I am not well verse