Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 07:03:25AM +0200 I heard the voice of Andreas Klemm, and lo! it spake thus: Most favourite example: I personally still get mad if it comes to the u undo key. I miss :N. You have to :split and then :n separately. Standard vi lets you toggle your last change by hitting u. From my experience you cannot recover from such a mistake. You need redo (^R) to do the same in vim. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
Matthew D. Fuller wrote: Most favourite example: I personally still get mad if it comes to the u undo key. I miss :N. You have to :split and then :n separately. Do you mean :sn? cheers simon -- Serve - BSD +++ RENT this banner advert +++ASCII Ribbon /\ Work - Mac +++ space for low $$$ NOW!1 +++ Campaign \ / Party Enjoy Relax | http://dragonflybsd.org Against HTML \ Dude 2c 2 the max ! http://golden-apple.biz Mail + News / \ ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 02:08:40AM +0900, Sangwoo Shim wrote: Actually the first thing that I do after minimal installing of new system is to install vim from the ports tree. (in fact, installing cvsup, of course :-) I remember once upon a time someone (david?) made a suggestion that nvi in our tree should be changed to vim-lite(or something.) I'm tend to agree with that.. (Although vim is GPL'd, nvi is in the src/contrib anyway..) Please no ;-) Although vim has some nice features its definitively different to standard vi behaviour, which can really bitch you in some situations. Most favourite example: I personally still get mad if it comes to the u undo key. Standard vi lets you toggle your last change by hitting u. So I'm used that it doesn't hurt to type the u key multiple times. This is very usefull to let your eye browse through a complex change to make an a/b comparison. If you do that in vim, then you loose as many last changes as you hit u repeatedly. And if you did many changes you loose a serious amount of work. From my experience you cannot recover from such a mistake. Therefore standard vi is for me much superior, since with it I can get my job done in a reliable manner without fancy side effects. I don't want to start an editor flamewar. I know many people who start to like vi starting with vim. And editors are an issue of taste and experience in use ... Its only a thing to take into consideration whats better. To learn standard vi, thats available everywhere. Or to have the same situation as with emacs ... Vim is still kind of an exot for me. That its standard vi on nearly all Linuxes around still doesn't qualify it enough as standard vi... Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 Need a magic printfilter today ? - http://www.apsfilter.org/ ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
At 1:25 PM -0600 10/17/05, M. Warner Losh wrote: In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: :vi was the first screen/cursor-based editor in computer :history. Are you sure about this? I was using screen oriented editors over a 1200 baud dialup line in 1977 on a PDP-11 running RSTS/E on a Behive BH-100. Seems like one year from vi to being deployed at Berkeley to a completely different video editor being deployed on a completely different os in the schools that I used this in seems fast. So I did some digging. vi started in about 1976[1] as a project that grew out of the frustration taht a 200 line Pascal program was too big for the system to handle. These are based on recollections of Bill Joy in 1984. It appears that starting in 1972 Carl Mikkelson added screen editing features to TECO[2]. In 1974 Richard Stallman added macros to TECO. I don't know if Carl's work was the first, but it pre-dates the vi efforts. Other editors may have influanced Carl. Who knows. I arrived in RPI in 1975. In December of 1975, we were just trying out a mainframe timesharing system called Michigan Terminal System, or MTS, from the university of Michigan. The editor was called 'edit', and was a Command Language Subsystem (CLS) in MTS. That meant it had a command language of it's one. One of the sub-commands in edit was 'visual', for visual mode. It only worked on IBM 3270-style terminals, but it was screen-based and cursor-based. The editor would put a bunch of fields up on the screen, some of which you could modify and some you couldn't. The text of your file was in the fields you could type over. Once you finished with whatever changes you wanted to make on that screen, you would hit one of 15 or 20 interrupt-generating keys on the 3270 terminal (12 of which were programmable function keys, in a keypad with a layout similar to the numeric keypad on current keyboards). The 3270 terminal would then tell the mainframe which fields on the screen had been modified, and what those modifications were. The mainframe would update the file based on that info. I *THINK* the guy who wrote that was ... Bill Joy -- as a student at UofM. I can't find any confirmation of that, though. The closest I can come is the web page at http://www.jefallbright.net/node/3218 , which is an article written by Bill. In it he mentions: By 1967, MTS was up and running on the newly arrived 360/67, supporting 30 to 40 simultaneous users. ... By the time I arrived as an undergraduate at the University of Michigan in 1971, MTS and Merit were successful and stable systems. By that point, a multiprocessor system running MTS could support a hundred simultaneous interactive users, ... But he doesn't happen to mention anything about editors or visual mode. My memory of his connection to MTS's visual-mode could very well be wrong, since I didn't come along until after visual-mode already existed. I just remember his name coming up in later discussions. However, I also think there was someone named Victor who was part of the story of 3270 support in MTS. And Dave Twyver at University of British Columbia was the guy who wrote the 3270 DSR (Device Support Routine), as mentioned on the page at: http://mtswiki.westwood-tech.com/mtswiki-index.php/Dave%20Twyver In any case, I *am* sure that MTS had a visual editor in December of 1975, which puts before vi if vi started in 1976. Unfortunately, all of the documentation of MTS lived in the EBCDIC world, and pretty much disappeared when MTS did (in the late 1990's). In my case, the first visual editor that worked under Unix was DED from the Australian Distro. it only worked on a VT100, but that's was what i had :-), then came emacs, so im one of the few that doesn't know vi. danny ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 01:25:32PM -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : vi was the first screen/cursor-based editor in computer : history. Are you sure about this? I was using screen oriented editors over a 1200 baud dialup line in 1977 on a PDP-11 running RSTS/E on a Behive BH-100. Seems like one year from vi to being deployed at Berkeley to a completely different video editor being deployed on a completely different os in the schools that I used this in seems fast. So I did some digging. vi started in about 1976[1] as a project that grew out of the frustration taht a 200 line Pascal program was too big for the system to handle. These are based on recollections of Bill Joy in 1984. It appears that starting in 1972 Carl Mikkelson added screen editing features to TECO[2]. In 1974 Richard Stallman added macros to TECO. I don't know if Carl's work was the first, but it pre-dates the vi efforts. Other editors may have influanced Carl. Who knows. You're probably right. I didn't know the diff between a computer and a washing machine until I was past 30; found out in 1977 and haven't looked back! My first editor was ed on V6, followed by ex, followed by vi circa June, 1978. Bill used to haul around print outs of the src to vi and csh (c). I'd be hacking in FORTRAN and Bill would be working in things that we lightyears beyond me. Ideas inspire new ideas; concepts build upon one another. This integration and cross-fertilization helps all of us. OT, but that is why I see software patents as being not only selfish but self-defeating in the longer scope of things. Let me amend my prev-statement to read that vi was among the first screen/cursor-based editors gary -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public service Unix ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Hello, FreeBSD people. First thing to mention is that I'm very experienced Emacs user. I was using it [ snip reasons for becoming a VI user ] and according to documentation it has powerful editing mechanism. It is. So, my question goes to all FreeBSD hackers who uses `nvi' as their general editor. Is it possible to do serious hacking with it? More accurate: I mostly use vim, not nvi. Reasons: - vim can do syntax highlighting. - vim does smart indentation correctly for my value of correctly. * What programming features it support? (Does it have something like etags? Does it have interface to gdb? And such other things..) Ctags originated with vi. I can't imagine why an editor should interface with gdb -- that's what other windows are for. * Is it possible to use it comfortable with Dvorak layout? (I noticed some bindings that relies on keys arrangement) I use a Dvorak keyboard all the time. It works just fine; your fingers have already learned the hard part. Besides, j and k are still next to each other, and I almost never use h or l for moving left/right (usually use space or W for right and 0 to go to beginning of line). * How to setup it to standard FreeBSD C code indentation? And don't use tabs as well. :set tabstop=8 shiftwidth=4 Use tabs. They're part of the FreeBSD standard, last I checked, but that's an area of religious discussion I try to avoid. It's hard choice for me to switch old good Emacs to something new, so please give me your opinions. I've tried emacs several times, and keep going back to vi because I don't like hitting so many modifier keys. -- Steve Watt KD6GGD PP-ASEL-IA ICBM: 121W 56' 57.8 / 37N 20' 14.9 Internet: steve @ Watt.COM Whois: SW32 Free time? There's no such thing. It just comes in varying prices... ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Wed, 2005-Oct-19 12:59:04 -0700, Steve Watt wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Does it have interface to gdb? And such other things..) ... I can't imagine why an editor should interface with gdb -- that's what other windows are for. When stepping through code, it's nice to have the current line and surrounding context automatically displayed (without clogging up your gdb session with an extra 10-20 lines of output for each step). It's also nice to able to scroll back through your entire debugging session. -- Peter Jeremy ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 02:46:56AM +0400, Oleg Petrov wrote: Hello, FreeBSD people. First thing to mention is that I'm very experienced Emacs user. I was using it for 4-5 years or so. But sometime ago i began to feel myself so uncomfortable with it for some reasons: first, i use many different systems and emacs isn't default application for FreeBSD or any other *BSD\Linux distribution. Second, remote machines aren't powerful enough to start Emacs fast. I tried many small Emacs clones like jed, joe, uemacs and several others i just can't remember. But for different reasons i disliked all of them. Later I noticed default `nvi' editor, that has some nice features: it comes with FreeBSD by default and according to documentation it has powerful editing mechanism. So, my question goes to all FreeBSD hackers who uses `nvi' as their general editor. Is it possible to do serious hacking with it? More accurate: * What programming features it support? (Does it have something like etags? Does it have interface to gdb? And such other things..) * Is it possible to use it comfortable with Dvorak layout? (I noticed some bindings that relies on keys arrangement) * How to setup it to standard FreeBSD C code indentation? And don't use tabs as well. It's hard choice for me to switch old good Emacs to something new, so please give me your opinions. I'm not subscribed to list, so please CC me. vi was the first screen/cursor-based editor in computer history. Written by Bill Joy when he was in his early 20's. I've been using vi almost since Bill released his first draft; my fingers know it by default. And even after almost 30years there are still things I don't know. Nutshell, I've hacked hundreds of thousands of line using vi; millions of words of prose. I've used *tags, debuggers, and other tools with it. Have tried *emacs; just can't get the hang of it. With tools like [n]vi and ctags, plus a debugger you've got your own IDE. Since you've learned emacs, you'll learn vi in a flash. gary kline -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public service Unix ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 02:46:56AM +0400, Oleg Petrov wrote: Hello, FreeBSD people. First thing to mention is that I'm very experienced Emacs user. I was using it for 4-5 years or so. But sometime ago i began to feel myself so uncomfortable with it for some reasons: first, i use many different systems and emacs isn't default application for FreeBSD or any other *BSD\Linux distribution. Second, remote machines aren't powerful enough to start Emacs fast. I tried many small Emacs clones like jed, joe, uemacs and several others i just can't remember. But for different reasons i disliked all of them. Later I noticed default `nvi' editor, that has some nice features: it comes with FreeBSD by default and according to documentation it has powerful editing mechanism. So, my question goes to all FreeBSD hackers who uses `nvi' as their general editor. Is it possible to do serious hacking with it? More accurate: I'd say s/nvi/vim (see http://www.vim.org/) if you want to really do everything with your Vi. Marc ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:49:20PM +0200, Marc Fonvieille wrote: I'd say s/nvi/vim (see http://www.vim.org/) if you want to really do everything with your Vi. Err, sorry for the cross-post :( Marc ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
2005/10/17, Marc Fonvieille [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 02:46:56AM +0400, Oleg Petrov wrote: Hello, FreeBSD people. First thing to mention is that I'm very experienced Emacs user. I was using it for 4-5 years or so. But sometime ago i began to feel myself so uncomfortable with it for some reasons: first, i use many different systems and emacs isn't default application for FreeBSD or any other *BSD\Linux distribution. Second, remote machines aren't powerful enough to start Emacs fast. I tried many small Emacs clones like jed, joe, uemacs and several others i just can't remember. But for different reasons i disliked all of them. Later I noticed default `nvi' editor, that has some nice features: it comes with FreeBSD by default and according to documentation it has powerful editing mechanism. So, my question goes to all FreeBSD hackers who uses `nvi' as their general editor. Is it possible to do serious hacking with it? More accurate: I'd say s/nvi/vim (see http://www.vim.org/) if you want to really do everything with your Vi. Actually the first thing that I do after minimal installing of new system is to install vim from the ports tree. (in fact, installing cvsup, of course :-) I remember once upon a time someone (david?) made a suggestion that nvi in our tree should be changed to vim-lite(or something.) I'm tend to agree with that.. (Although vim is GPL'd, nvi is in the src/contrib anyway..) Regards, Sangwoo Shim Marc ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : vi was the first screen/cursor-based editor in computer : history. Are you sure about this? I was using screen oriented editors over a 1200 baud dialup line in 1977 on a PDP-11 running RSTS/E on a Behive BH-100. Seems like one year from vi to being deployed at Berkeley to a completely different video editor being deployed on a completely different os in the schools that I used this in seems fast. So I did some digging. vi started in about 1976[1] as a project that grew out of the frustration taht a 200 line Pascal program was too big for the system to handle. These are based on recollections of Bill Joy in 1984. It appears that starting in 1972 Carl Mikkelson added screen editing features to TECO[2]. In 1974 Richard Stallman added macros to TECO. I don't know if Carl's work was the first, but it pre-dates the vi efforts. Other editors may have influanced Carl. Who knows. Warner [1] http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~kirkenda/joy84.html [2] http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsHistory ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
Hi, (wondering off on a tangent), re: I was using screen oriented editors over a 1200 baud dialup line in 1977 on a PDP-11 running RSTS/E on a Behive... Around this time I think full-screen editors from DEC that took advantage of the VT-52 (and later VT-100) included KED, EDT, and maybe SOS? EDT and KED took good advantage of the alternate keypad, basically the same keypad as on PC keyboards today. Weren't there full-screen editors on PDP-8's before this? Doug Engelbart's NLS demo in 1968 may not qualify as available, but he demoed full-screen editing with a mouse: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars/2 The demo featured hypertext linking, full-screen document editing, context-sensitive help, networked document collaboration, e-mail, instant messenging, even video conferencing! NLS ran on a version of UC Berkeley's Genie system, which can be considered an ancestor of Unix (maybe more-so than Multics?) Although early versions of TECO may not have supported direct-cursor addressing, TECO might have played a role in popularizing the notion of full-screen editors. From the wikipedia: TECO became well-known following a DEC PDP-6 implementation developed at MIT's Project MAC in 1964. This implementation continuously displayed the edited text visually on a CRT screen, and was used as an interactive online editor. This was, however, neither its origin nor its originally intended mode of use. Later versions of TECO were capable of driving full-screen mode on various DEC RS232 video terminals. - bruce ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nvi for serious hacking
At 1:25 PM -0600 10/17/05, M. Warner Losh wrote: In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : vi was the first screen/cursor-based editor in computer : history. Are you sure about this? I was using screen oriented editors over a 1200 baud dialup line in 1977 on a PDP-11 running RSTS/E on a Behive BH-100. Seems like one year from vi to being deployed at Berkeley to a completely different video editor being deployed on a completely different os in the schools that I used this in seems fast. So I did some digging. vi started in about 1976[1] as a project that grew out of the frustration taht a 200 line Pascal program was too big for the system to handle. These are based on recollections of Bill Joy in 1984. It appears that starting in 1972 Carl Mikkelson added screen editing features to TECO[2]. In 1974 Richard Stallman added macros to TECO. I don't know if Carl's work was the first, but it pre-dates the vi efforts. Other editors may have influanced Carl. Who knows. I arrived in RPI in 1975. In December of 1975, we were just trying out a mainframe timesharing system called Michigan Terminal System, or MTS, from the university of Michigan. The editor was called 'edit', and was a Command Language Subsystem (CLS) in MTS. That meant it had a command language of it's one. One of the sub-commands in edit was 'visual', for visual mode. It only worked on IBM 3270-style terminals, but it was screen-based and cursor-based. The editor would put a bunch of fields up on the screen, some of which you could modify and some you couldn't. The text of your file was in the fields you could type over. Once you finished with whatever changes you wanted to make on that screen, you would hit one of 15 or 20 interrupt-generating keys on the 3270 terminal (12 of which were programmable function keys, in a keypad with a layout similar to the numeric keypad on current keyboards). The 3270 terminal would then tell the mainframe which fields on the screen had been modified, and what those modifications were. The mainframe would update the file based on that info. I *THINK* the guy who wrote that was ... Bill Joy -- as a student at UofM. I can't find any confirmation of that, though. The closest I can come is the web page at http://www.jefallbright.net/node/3218 , which is an article written by Bill. In it he mentions: By 1967, MTS was up and running on the newly arrived 360/67, supporting 30 to 40 simultaneous users. ... By the time I arrived as an undergraduate at the University of Michigan in 1971, MTS and Merit were successful and stable systems. By that point, a multiprocessor system running MTS could support a hundred simultaneous interactive users, ... But he doesn't happen to mention anything about editors or visual mode. My memory of his connection to MTS's visual-mode could very well be wrong, since I didn't come along until after visual-mode already existed. I just remember his name coming up in later discussions. However, I also think there was someone named Victor who was part of the story of 3270 support in MTS. And Dave Twyver at University of British Columbia was the guy who wrote the 3270 DSR (Device Support Routine), as mentioned on the page at: http://mtswiki.westwood-tech.com/mtswiki-index.php/Dave%20Twyver In any case, I *am* sure that MTS had a visual editor in December of 1975, which puts before vi if vi started in 1976. Unfortunately, all of the documentation of MTS lived in the EBCDIC world, and pretty much disappeared when MTS did (in the late 1990's). -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
