Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-19 Thread Polytropon
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:36:41 +0100, Michel Talon ta...@lpthe.jussieu.fr wrote: How many new features of FreeBSD are correctly documented presently? Features of the FreeBSD OS are typically well documented. This high quality affects all kind of documentation, be it the handbook FAQ, as well as

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-19 Thread Da Rock
On 03/19/11 17:18, Polytropon wrote: On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:36:41 +0100, Michel Talonta...@lpthe.jussieu.fr wrote: How many new features of FreeBSD are correctly documented presently? Features of the FreeBSD OS are typically well documented. This high quality affects all kind of

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-19 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:18:58 +1000, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: Thats what I love about FBSD- the documentation is better than any other system out there, in the handbook but the man pages are the most comprehensive. Fully agree. As a developer, I like to

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Jerry
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:26:57 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 07:48:58PM -0400, Jerry wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:36:37 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: No, not really. It's more the fault of the hardware manufacturer.

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Polytropon
Jerry, allow me to add something to your statements. On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:03:54 -0400, Jerry freebsd.u...@seibercom.net wrote: Chad, you are an intelligent individual. I have no doubt of that. However, I think you have failed to think your entire hardware manufacturers are evil for not

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Da Rock
On 03/18/11 23:03, Jerry wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:26:57 -0600 Chad Perrinper...@apotheon.com articulated: On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 07:48:58PM -0400, Jerry wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:36:37 -0600 Chad Perrinper...@apotheon.com articulated: No, not really. It's more

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Michel Talon
Chad wrote: Everybody who thinks it's a good idea (by way of analogy) to write command line utilities that default to not letting you specify any options at all, and if you use one option to do something non-default you have to specify *all* options even when the specification is exactly the

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Chad Perrin
The other two people whose responses to you I have read so far make some good points. Nonetheless, I intend to give my take on the matter as well. On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 09:03:54AM -0400, Jerry wrote: Chad, you are an intelligent individual. I have no doubt of that. However, I think you

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Chad Perrin
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:36:41PM +0100, Michel Talon wrote: Chad wrote: Everybody who thinks it's a good idea (by way of analogy) to write command line utilities that default to not letting you specify any options at all, and if you use one option to do something non-default you have

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-18 Thread Gary Gatten
' - Original Message - From: Chad Perrin [mailto:per...@apotheon.com] Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 06:13 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HAL must die! On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:36:41PM +0100, Michel Talon wrote: Chad wrote: Everybody who thinks it's

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Krutov Mikle
On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 03:32:59PM +0100, Ivan Voras wrote: On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a global default? Is there a (convenient) way to list

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Lars Eighner
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Krutov Mikle wrote: On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 03:32:59PM +0100, Ivan Voras wrote: On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a global

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Polytropon
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:42:00 +0300, Krutov Mikle nekoexmach...@gmail.com wrote: As for me, it is like a habit: I've installed Xorg + HAL for the first time; I've seen that my config is ignored; I disabled HAL by-default in make.conf :) Similar situation here. The thing that annoys me most

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Ivan Voras
On 17 March 2011 16:10, Lars Eighner luvbeas...@larseighner.com wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Krutov Mikle wrote: On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 03:32:59PM +0100, Ivan Voras wrote: On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread David Brodbeck
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: The problem is it'd have to be someone who's unemployed. ;)  Any software company is going to want to patent something that valuable; they'd be failing their shareholders if they didn't. Except a

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Chip Camden
Quoth David Brodbeck on Thursday, 17 March 2011: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: The problem is it'd have to be someone who's unemployed. ;)  Any software company is going to want to patent something that valuable; they'd be

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Chad Perrin
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:35:04PM +0100, Ivan Voras wrote: Well yes, that's one thing: if you use HAL, everything must use HAL and you can't pick and match incompatible applications and force half of the things in xorg.conf. There should be a way to override it on a piecemeal basis.

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Chad Perrin
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:46:50AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote: Quoth David Brodbeck on Thursday, 17 March 2011: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: Except a private company. Yeah, but most private software companies are trying

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Warren Block
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Chad Perrin wrote: In my experience, about one third of the time HAL makes X work great, and the other two thirds of the time it fails in some way that requires me to create a complete xorg.conf file just for one or two options. hal just provides input device hotplug

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Jerry
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:48:52 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: I blame Microsoft, GNU, and Canonical for this trend, mostly. Chad, I believe I stand on firm ground when I state that you would blame Microsoft if the sun didn't come up tomorrow. You obviously must have a life

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Chad Perrin
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:35:57PM -0400, Jerry wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:48:52 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: I blame Microsoft, GNU, and Canonical for this trend, mostly. Chad, I believe I stand on firm ground when I state that you would blame Microsoft if the

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Jerry
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:36:37 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:35:57PM -0400, Jerry wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:48:52 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: I blame Microsoft, GNU, and Canonical for this trend, mostly.

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Da Rock
On 03/18/11 03:35, David Brodbeck wrote: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: The problem is it'd have to be someone who's unemployed. ;) Any software company is going to want to patent something that valuable; they'd be failing their

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Daniel Staal
--As of March 17, 2011 7:48:58 PM -0400, Jerry is alleged to have said: I have two Linksys Wireless-N PCI cards in front of me that work fine on a Windows platform. FreeBSD doesn't even have a driver for them, thereby rendering them useless. I suppose that is Microsoft's fault too. No,

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Chad Perrin
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 07:48:58PM -0400, Jerry wrote: On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:36:37 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com articulated: No, not really. It's more the fault of the hardware manufacturer. Chad, up until this point I had taken your response seriously. In fact, I thought it

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-17 Thread Chad Perrin
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 08:27:32PM -0400, Daniel Staal wrote: The additional knowledge that Linux supports them means the manufacturer isn't totally closed to supporting Open-source software, but tells us nothing beyond that. Linux's support may be by way of a binary blob from Linksys,

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Da Rock
On 03/16/11 10:43, Chad Perrin wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 08:37:53PM -0400, Jerry wrote: The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. . . . and most of them are supported on any given platform that isn't pathologically closed. Microsoft

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Matthew Seaman
On 16/03/2011 00:37, Jerry wrote: Microsoft has approximately 90% of the desktop market share with everyone else dividing up the remainder. If you are on a Microsoft platform you use their products. The same applies to other platforms and their utilities. Microsoft may once have had 90% of

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
On Mar 16, 2011, at 12:29 AM, Matthew Seaman wrote: Microsoft may once have had 90% of the desktop market -- but is that still true? Macs seem to be everywhere nowadays. It may have change a couple of percentage points. Apple marketshare has gone up a lot percentage wise but in the whole

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Jerry
myself so I would not be able to comment on that even if I used a MAC. In any case, the subject declaring HAL must die if no longer relevant. It is all ready dead, except on FreeBSD. Even its author has declared it so. The real question is how long are the developers of the fragmented open-source

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Da Rock
easier to use and maneuver. I am a mouse person myself so I would not be able to comment on that even if I used a MAC. In any case, the subject declaring HAL must die if no longer relevant. It is all ready dead, except on FreeBSD. Even its author has declared it so. The real question is how long

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Chip Camden
Quoth Robert Huff on Wednesday, 16 March 2011: Erich Dollansky writes: The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. when it comes to screwing, we use - at least outside the USA - metric screws. M3, M4 ... M10 ... We do not care much

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Chip Camden
Quoth Jerry on Wednesday, 16 March 2011: On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 06:29:25 + Matthew Seaman m.sea...@infracaninophile.co.uk articulated: On 16/03/2011 00:37, Jerry wrote: Microsoft has approximately 90% of the desktop market share with everyone else dividing up the remainder. If you are

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Chad Perrin
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 09:25:59AM +0700, Erich Dollansky wrote: On Wednesday 16 March 2011 07:37:53 Jerry wrote: Now, as far as HAL goes, the fragmented open-source community cannot even begin to agree on its replacement. Every distro is busy trying to It looks like a bunch of little

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Chad Perrin
myself so I would not be able to comment on that even if I used a MAC. . . . and yet, a majority of those people would probably extol the virtues of the mouse if I introduced them to vi. Funny how that works. In any case, the subject declaring HAL must die if no longer relevant. It is all ready

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread David Brodbeck
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: The largest possible paying audience is generally everybody capable of using an open standard. Since we're talking about video, though, it's worth noting that there don't appear to *be* any truly open video compression

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Chad Perrin
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:12:09AM -0700, David Brodbeck wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: The largest possible paying audience is generally everybody capable of using an open standard. Since we're talking about video, though, it's worth noting

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread David Brodbeck
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: It's certainly true that video is a bit of a sticky widget with regard to open standards.  The moment someone develops something that is verifiably free of patent encumbrances for video and doesn't just *suck*, I expect

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Da Rock
On 03/17/11 04:38, David Brodbeck wrote: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Chad Perrinper...@apotheon.com wrote: It's certainly true that video is a bit of a sticky widget with regard to open standards. The moment someone develops something that is verifiably free of patent encumbrances

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-16 Thread Da Rock
On 03/17/11 01:27, Chip Camden wrote: Quoth Jerry on Wednesday, 16 March 2011: On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 06:29:25 + Matthew Seamanm.sea...@infracaninophile.co.uk articulated: On 16/03/2011 00:37, Jerry wrote: Microsoft has approximately 90% of the desktop market share with

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-15 Thread Da Rock
On 03/08/11 03:00, Chad Perrin wrote: On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 07:31:43AM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: Sorry I could not help but to realize the title of this forum discussion. I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that. :-/ I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that. (full quote)

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-15 Thread Jerry
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:32:01 +1000 Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au articulated: On 03/08/11 03:00, Chad Perrin wrote: On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 07:31:43AM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: Sorry I could not help but to realize the title of this forum discussion. I'm

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-15 Thread Chad Perrin
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 08:37:53PM -0400, Jerry wrote: The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. . . . and most of them are supported on any given platform that isn't pathologically closed. Microsoft has approximately 90% of the desktop market share

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-15 Thread Lars Eighner
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011, Jerry wrote: Now, as far as HAL goes, the fragmented open-source community cannot even begin to agree on its replacement. Every distro is busy trying to reinvent the wheel. Here you want the majority of users to be dictated to by a minority of users who cannot even agree on

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-15 Thread Erich Dollansky
Hi, On Wednesday 16 March 2011 07:37:53 Jerry wrote: On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:32:01 +1000 Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au articulated: On 03/08/11 03:00, Chad Perrin wrote: On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 07:31:43AM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: The nice thing about

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-15 Thread Robert Huff
Erich Dollansky writes: The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. when it comes to screwing, we use - at least outside the USA - metric screws. M3, M4 ... M10 ... We do not care much who manufactured them. The software industry is

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Ivan Voras
On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a global default? Is there a (convenient) way to list ports that might pull in HAL without having a configuration

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Gour
On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:32:59 +0100 Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Um, why exactly are so many people against HAL? It's the only cross-platform thing available for non-Linux systems which handles device enumeration, hotplugs, etc. I'm not, but I see that many Linux DEs abandon it (e.g

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Nerius Landys
Sorry I could not help but to realize the title of this forum discussion. I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that. :-/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Mark Felder
On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 08:32:59 -0600, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Um, why exactly are so many people against HAL? HAL is deprecated now. All projects using HAL are in the process or have already migrated away from it. KDE has pluggable backends, so that's not a big deal, but XFCE

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Chad Perrin
On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 07:31:43AM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: Sorry I could not help but to realize the title of this forum discussion. I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that. :-/ I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that. (full quote) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qnd-hdmgfk Did you

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Charlie Kester
On Mon 07 Mar 2011 at 09:00:14 PST Chad Perrin wrote: Did you know you can configure YouTube to use HTML5 instead of Flash now? Adobe is in danger of becoming irrelevant. Meh. I never watch videos on the website anyway. I download them with cclive, as mp4's. Not sure what any of this

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Chad Perrin
On Mon, Mar 07, 2011 at 09:17:23AM -0800, Charlie Kester wrote: On Mon 07 Mar 2011 at 09:00:14 PST Chad Perrin wrote: Did you know you can configure YouTube to use HTML5 instead of Flash now? Adobe is in danger of becoming irrelevant. Meh. I never watch videos on the website anyway.

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread David Brodbeck
I think now we know the real reason HAL was deprecated -- too many crusty old jokes. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Lars Eighner
On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Ivan Voras wrote: On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a global default? Is there a (convenient) way to list ports that might pull

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Ivan Voras
On 7 March 2011 19:44, Lars Eighner luvbeas...@larseighner.com wrote: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Ivan Voras wrote: On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Svein Skogen (Listmail account)
On 08.03.2011 04:36, Ivan Voras wrote: On 7 March 2011 19:44, Lars Eighner luvbeas...@larseighner.com wrote: On Mon, 7 Mar 2011, Ivan Voras wrote: On 06/03/2011 19:56, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-07 Thread Chuck Swiger
On Mar 7, 2011, at 9:28 PM, Svein Skogen (Listmail account) wrote: But he does raise a valid problem (if more than zero users, etc). We (I include fellow FreeBSD users, but also OSX and Linux users) do lack a decent cross-platform device manager stack, with uniform device name enumeration.

HAL must die!

2011-03-06 Thread Lars Eighner
Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a global default? Is there a (convenient) way to list ports that might pull in HAL without having a configuration switch? -- Lars Eighner

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-06 Thread Eitan Adler
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Lars Eighner luvbeas...@larseighner.com wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade.  Is there a way to make this a global default? You can put WITHOUT_HAL=yes in /etc/make.conf -- Eitan

Re: HAL must die!

2011-03-06 Thread Warren Block
On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Lars Eighner wrote: Using the -C switch with portupgrade, I am managing to turn WITH_HAL off in ports that I install or upgrade. Is there a way to make this a global default? Is there a (convenient) way to list ports that might pull in HAL without having a configuration