Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
On 2003-03-13 17:46, Anti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:11:48 +0200 Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: really very, *very*, basic services that a Unix machine should be ready to serve without having to go through tons of ports/packages just to install bind. why not just have the package install by default so those who don't want it can easily remove it? Because nobody has done it until now is the best answer to this oft repeated question. Because if FreeBSD degenerates to the case of most Linux distributions where one needs to remember the 'dependencies' of a million packages, in order to have a complete and working Unix system up in a breeze, then it won't be FreeBSD anymore I guess... etc. This question has often been asked, answered and beaten to death :-/ [snip a bunch of arguments moot were the packages installed by default instead of making everything part of the base system] With a spare partition /dev/ad0s2a that can be used as a temp root directory the process should be as easy as: [snip] you don't need a spare partition, any empty directory will do. whenever i install freebsd i do a minimal install, then build and install world and kernel from source with everything possible disabled in make.conf, then installkernel, installworld, mergemaster -i -D to an empty directory, then use diff to find all the crap that can be deleted. That too. I use a spare partition here at home to make sure I can always boot back and forth between the two installations :-) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:11:48 +0200 Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] really very, *very*, basic services that a Unix machine should be ready to serve without having to go through tons of ports/packages just to install bind. why not just have the package install by default so those who don't want it can easily remove it? [snip a bunch of arguments moot were the packages installed by default instead of making everything part of the base system] With a spare partition /dev/ad0s2a that can be used as a temp root directory the process should be as easy as: [snip] you don't need a spare partition, any empty directory will do. whenever i install freebsd i do a minimal install, then build and install world and kernel from source with everything possible disabled in make.conf, then installkernel, installworld, mergemaster -i -D to an empty directory, then use diff to find all the crap that can be deleted. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
Jorge Mario G. wrote: Hi there I've seen that BIND and sendmail (till 4.7-RELEASE havent tested 5.0 yet) are installed by default my question is simple... WHY? Partly for historical reasons. Also, sendmail and BIND do more than just mail|DNS server. Sendmail is used by most local mailers for sending mail, even if it's not configured as a server. Unlike bloatware such as Outlook that includes it's own SMTP code. I belive (but I could be wrong here) that BIND code is implemented in the resolver, thus it is required for _any_ DNS lookups to succeed. Also, running a caching DNS server is a good idea for anyone (even a workstation) as it speeds Internet access up in most cases. Most of the speed issues I have with Adelphia is how long it takes to resolve DNS to IPs. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
At 2003-03-12T15:59:03Z, Jorge Mario G. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've seen that BIND and sendmail (till 4.7-RELEASE havent tested 5.0 yet) are installed by default my question is simple... WHY? Because noone's done the work of removing them. Volunteering? I see this from a end user point of view (mine): Do I need a my own mailserver??? - No, we have yahoo.com :-) So, you're OK with setting your nightly periodic output to be sent through yahoo.com? What if you're systems trying to tell you that there's a network outage, but can't because, well, there's a network outage? -- Kirk Strauser In Googlis non est, ergo non est. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
To my knowledge, the default install does not install either BIND or SENDMAIL anymore. You have to select those options during the CUSTOM install process. Unless you are using the QUICK INSTALL method. Of course, the QUICK INSTALL is geared to get you started with the basics, so if you don't want them, then start doing custom installs. Peter At 10:59 AM 3/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: Hi there I've seen that BIND and sendmail (till 4.7-RELEASE havent tested 5.0 yet) are installed by default my question is simple... WHY? I see this from a end user point of view (mine): Do I need a name server or DNS chaching server??? - Nop, my ISP provides me that Do I need a my own mailserver??? - No, we have yahoo.com :-) Now I from the sys admin point of view (mine): Do I need a DNS server??? YES, but I usually grab the lastest version, and the default install does not suit to our needs... Do I need mail server? YES, but I dont use sendmail, or I dont like the default install, it doesnt suit to our needs etc... Yes, I know you can remove sendmail and bind adding a couple of line to the make.conf file but still doenst answer my questions Thanks Jorge To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message -- Peter Elsner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice President Of Customer Service (And System Administrator) 1835 S. Carrier Parkway Grand Prairie, Texas 75051 (972) 263-2080 - Voice (972) 263-2082 - Fax (972) 489-4838 - Cell Phone (425) 988-8061 - eFax I worry about my child and the Internet all the time, even though she's too young to have logged on yet. Here's what I worry about. I worry that 10 or 15 years from now, she will come to me and say Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press away from the Internet? -- Mike Godwin Unix IS user friendly... It's just selective about who its friends are. System Administration - It's a dirty job, but somebody said I had to do it. If you receive something that says 'Send this to everyone you know, pretend you don't know me. Standard $500/message proofreading fee applies for UCE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
Here I try to reply to kirk and all other guys 1. if I want to read my network status is most likely because I have server?? If I'd have a server Id configure (mail) it how I like it :) 2. for bill: I dont think there is BIND conde involved in the resolver 3. for peter: I always go with the CUSTOM install Jorge To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jorge Mario G. [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed: Now I from the sys admin point of view (mine): Do I need a DNS server??? YES, but I usually grab the lastest version, and the default install does not suit to our needs... But it suits a lot of peoples needs. Do I need mail server? YES, but I dont use sendmail, or I dont like the default install, it doesnt suit to our needs etc... But it suits a lot of peoples needs. Basically, these are things that have historically been part of BSD, and have people who are willing to support them in the distribution. Enough people need that functionality that there's not much point in ripping them out. Replacing sendmail is probably impossible because there's no consensus about what should replace it, and you need something do mail submission. Just turn off the build and forget it. Replacing BIND with a later version might be possible, but needs someone willing to do the work. If you're volunteering, great. If not, just keep on installing the newer version and ignore the one in the base system. BTW, they are both in 5.0-RELEASE. It's might be worth pointing out that some other things - like uucp - have moved to ports. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
Jorge Mario G. wrote: Here I try to reply to kirk and all other guys 1. if I want to read my network status is most likely because I have server?? If I'd have a server Id configure (mail) it how I like it :) 2. for bill: I dont think there is BIND conde involved in the resolver Well, we can both think about it, or you could check. 3. for peter: I always go with the CUSTOM install I think he's talking about FreeBSD 5, which I know for a fact no longer includes perl, and may have other things (like sendmail) removed as well. You know, you could start this agument with just about any component other than the kernel ... Why is traceroute installed by default, I don't always want to do packet sniffing? ... Why is ping installed by default? Many Linux distros don't have these tools. The answer is: Because that's how FreeBSD is distributed Some of these questions have already been raised and the default changed (perl for example). The sendmail issue has been asked before as well. The reasons are primarily historical, and there are ways to disable/replace/remove those tools. Does that answer your question? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
On 2003-03-12 10:59, Jorge Mario G. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there Hello. I see that knowledgeable people have already answered this, but I'll try to put a little more detail in the lot. I've seen that BIND and sendmail (till 4.7-RELEASE havent tested 5.0 yet) are installed by default my question is simple... WHY? Because there is a large percentage of the FreeBSD users around the world that *do* find them useful on a newly installeed machine. One could argue that parts of the base system are redundant and bloat the basic installation, increasing the disk space requirements for a new FreeBSD install. And then, another could argue that DNS and mail are really very, *very*, basic services that a Unix machine should be ready to serve without having to go through tons of ports/packages just to install bind. This can go on forever. Do we really need to argue about what parts or functionality should remain in the base system and functionality that is not necessary for a Unix system forever? No, not really. I see this from a end user point of view (mine): Do I need a name server or DNS chaching server??? - Nop, my ISP provides me that You don't need one, in the sense that things will suddenly stop working. You can always configure your /etc/resolv.conf file to lookup hostnames and addresses using the caching DNS server of your provider. However, keep in mind that FreeBSD is not an operating system that is installed only on machines connected to the Internet. Bind in the base system is not that bad: - Installations at some places might not have access to a public DNS server, being unconnected to an ISP, but still have to serve a local network with host names/addresses. - The name server is disabled by default. YOu have to manually enable it, in order to have it run. Are you being worried too much about disk space here? Do I need a my own mailserver??? - No, we have yahoo.com :-) Yes you do. You might have a yahoo.com mail account, but a Unix system needs to be able to send mail at least locally. Parts of the periodic scripts that others have referred to need a working installation of mail. You can always tweak /etc/periodic.conf and disable those messages. But if you go down that route, and start tinkering with *.conf files, why not rc.conf instead and make sure that only local mail works correctly (as described in the rc.sendmail(5) manpage)? Even better, why not configure Sendmail and have it work flawlessly receiving mail from local programs and forwarding outgoing mail to your ISP's mail gateway? This way you will find it a lot easier to just point mail user agents (MUA) like pine, mutt, gnus, vm, netscape, mozilla, or pretty much anything else to use /usr/sbin/sendmail for mail delivery and after a few tests that reassure you that it all works, you can simply 'forget about it'. As a user you don't 'know' what Sendmail the daemon is. You only know that /usr/sbin/sendmail Just Works(TM). Now I from the sys admin point of view (mine): Do I need a DNS server??? Probably. It tends to speed things a bit. If you can spare a few cycles and a bit of memory, you should definitely consider the option. YES, but I usually grab the lastest version, and the default install does not suit to our needs... Whose default install? If you mean the version of bind that comes with FreeBSD, you can always ask the BIND maintainer of FreeBSD for newer versions of BIND. He has a few very good points to make. . . If you mean that the default installation of BIND doesn't suit your needs, then you can easily disable it from rc.conf. Moreover, if you are certain that you don't need BIND at all, you can use NO_BIND in your `/etc/make.conf'. Using a small 200-300 MB partition as temporary root, you can even install a clean system that contains *only* the bits you want. But this is a relatively complicated exercise that I'll leave to all the adventurous folks out there :) Do I need mail server? YES, but I dont use sendmail, or I dont like the default install, it doesnt suit to our needs etc... Yes, I know you can remove sendmail and bind adding a couple of line to the make.conf file but still doenst answer my questions Using the small partition temp root for bootstrapping a full system that uses NO_SENDMAIL and NO_BIND in make.conf then is a good option. I don't have a disk to spare now, but when I find one that is larger than a few hundred MB and can accomodate the base system, a full checkout of /usr/src and /usr/obj (roughly 1 GB should be fine), I'll probably try to build a system with NO_BIND and keep notes of the process. With a spare partition /dev/ad0s2a that can be used as a temp root directory the process should be as easy as: - boot from /dev/ad0s1a - mount all partitions as usual - edit /etc/make.conf and add NO_BIND=yes - buildworld buildkernel Now we have something to install. Prepare the destination
Re: why BIND and sendmail installed by default?
2. for bill: I dont think there is BIND conde involved in the resolver OK, BIND has nothing to do with the resolver :-) Well, we can both think about it, or you could check. 3. for peter: I always go with the CUSTOM install I think he's talking about FreeBSD 5, which I know for a fact no longer includes perl, and may have other things (like sendmail) removed as well. You know, you could start this agument with just about any component other than the kernel ... Why is traceroute installed by default, I don't always want to do packet sniffing? ... Why is ping installed by default? Many Linux distros don't have these tools. The answer is: Because that's how FreeBSD is distributed Some of these questions have already been raised and the default changed (perl for example). The sendmail issue has been asked before as well. The reasons are primarily historical, and there are ways to disable/replace/remove those tools. Does that answer your question? and um sort of... , but I mean! we all know that BIND and sendmail are buggy and come with a full set of security flows. Also if historical things have been changed why not this?? sounds like a decent idea no? my programmaing skills are very basic but I'll check that out Thanks for at least showin interest Jorge To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
